473 Fit Out - Survival Sailing

[Jeff]

We have a mostly stock Great Lakes based 473 (2003). We are planning
to exit the Lakes next year and embark on multi year cruising.

Our boat has an in-mast roller furling main and roller furling jib.

We will not go looking for trouble, but if we find it, we want a good
shot at riding it out.

What are suggestions for outfitting for difficult conditions. Drag
devices, Storm sails, rigging changes, ????

Thanks!

[David Mackintosh]

ah ha better

foresail is how big?

and does the B473 have a baby stay - cant quite remember?

The Jordan drogue gets lots of good write ups - not got one or a parachute anchor though BUT we have a Sailrite sewing machine so when/if we get bored we may make a MAC Drogue :-)

Since your are going to be carefully considering weather windows it seems unlikely you will need heavy weather kits like drogues etc....even if you were to do an Atlantic circle......BUT this is your life your money and your mindset  IF you went to the UK first then perhaps you might want to consider such items..... BUT if you drop down to the Caribbean grooving the ditch on the way there then do the ARC Europe  or cross in the right weather window if the ARC is not your thing it would seem unlikely that you would need such items.  Getting back to the Caribbean could be equally easy once you get to the Canaries most people are reporting not a lot of wind on the last few ARC crossings our friends went down to the Cape Verde Islands looking for wind last year.  Since you are obviously a reader get onto the ARC site and read the logs of the boats going west and east.  and perhaps get a subscription to Yachting World http://www.yachtingworld.com/ http://www.ybw.com/ they do ARC gear reports AND recently bought a 45ish foot Jeanneau which they deliberately dismasted and tried to sink and are about to blow apart with a propane explosion.

for anyone interested in exciting sailing go look at the AC45's racing and falling over in Portsmouth http://www.americascup.com/en/Events/2011-2012-world-series/2011-ACWS-Plymouth-UK/About/

regards

David

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[Jeff]

Foresail is 135 and yes, B473 has a baby stay.

[David Mackintosh]

nice size foresail do you have a Genniker for the ultra light stuff?

regards

David

On 16 September 2011 19:21, Jeff <jper...@ihccorp.com> wrote:

Foresail is 135 and yes, B473 has a baby stay.

--

[Jeff]

Yes, we do with a snuffer. Great sail.

[David Mackintosh]

Great,

I dont know if Beneteau do a cutter rig for the 473 they do for the 461.  I have the drawings for the deck fitting somewhere and i would love a removable one with a tall blade sail on it.  That and a gennicker on one of the new style roller furlers set on a small prodder - not a snuffer - that we do have - and you need to get out on the foredeck to get rid of the sail - it can be a bit of a PITA at times and needs me tp pull the snuffer down.  With a with a new style genniker roller anyone could operate that and from the cockpit too.  I think with that set up and a Gale Sail you are well set up for most sensible wind conditions - we have a reaching asymmetrical spinnaker see picture and this trip i hope t take three spinnakers out to the boat they are Ex my F456 see pictures with an extra tall mast so even the 'small' heavy weight storm spinnaker may be too big for the 461.

Re what Rick was saying about fast boats and the weather I screwed up big time delivering that B50.  With hindsight if we were two up cruising  (but then we would not have been out sailing) we should have had a parachute sea anchor OR Hove To for at least a day maybe two BUT what we did was continue to sail FAST on the nasty side the R/H/S of a deep depression.  As i was mob handed with good sailors we all thought keeping the boat moving fast was the best decision (and i am still of that view really) but on reflection all we did was sail for much longer in storm conditions as it was going N/NE so were we -  reversing course and taking it on the nose or even trying to cross to the L/H/S of the depression were not options. Had we sat still until we had the wind more up the transom or even on a very broad broad reach we may have had an easier ride however it is easy to make good/better decisions sitting here relaxed at home - that does not work very well when you are out there but it does add to the font of knowledge in the old brain for 'the next time'

Rick is also totally correct - why take 15 hours when you can do the passage in 10 hours - our recent StM to BVI passage the other boats took 15 hours - we drive the boat hard we love sailing - and love short passages even more - few similar sized boats and many bigger boats live with us on passage certainly not your traditional BWB's.  BUT then our sailing is all about getting there then enjoying the Islands and our sailing companions things that you can only do when you get there.

regards

David

On 16 September 2011 16:13, Jeff <jper...@ihccorp.com> wrote:

Yes, we do with a snuffer.  Great sail.

--

[Bungee]

High Jeff,
First up get rid of the in-mast furling main ,they sail like a pig ,no
batterns or vertical batterns if you get in any weather the pressure
on the roller furing main may make it impossible to reef ,if you have
trouble with the drum you may not beable to reef at all.
Go back to lazy jacks and two tied in reefs you will still get boat
speed even with a second reef in ,with the in-mast main rolled in you
may as well start the engine
Safer with lazy jacks,stay with the roller furling jib,get a storm jib
and a trisail
Bungee
On

[David Mackintosh]

WOW while not a big fan of in mast furling that is a BIG ASK and i somehow dont see Jeff buying into that suggestion as i would assume he chose in mast furling when he purchased the boat.

If you want a roller main i am more drawn to in boom reefing but when i conduct in water surveys i get replies that stretch from love it best bit of kit we ever put on the boat (but we had lots of problems with the sail and it took a few recuts or a new sail before it worked properly plus fitting a solid kicker to keep the boom at exactly the correct angle) to what a load of crap tis impossible to keep the boom at the right angle in heavy seas when we want to reef and so far we have had to replace the complete luff tape three times - worst decision we ever made the sail and boom were the most expensive upgrade on the boat and a total disaster - every time we need to reef at sea its fingers crossed.

So while i agree a traditional mainsail with full length battens and a good track system ( Tides Marine track system for me) is my preferred system i think changing from an in-mast mainsail to a traditional one is going to be hard to sell to an owner who has chosen and is happy with his in-mast system.  Also long term cruising should mean you try hard to reduce the time you spend sailing hard on the wind for sure we choose weather windows that mean we are 'expecting' nothing closer than a tight fetch - not that this is what we get of course This year we ended up about six miles downwind of our planed waypoint crossing to Montserrat after sailing most of the passage on a close fetch so we had to put in a few tacks in the lee of Montserrat to get to the anchorage.  BUT can i say in a six month cruise we only had this problem twice at all other times we were able to lay the course without any difficulties - occasionally cheating by motor sailing for an hour or less at the start of the passage to get to the other side of an island to get the weather gauge for the passage to the next island..  We were sailing in company with a O440 with an in-mast main and i never noticed that they had any issues with it apart from sun damage to the stitching which required removing and replacing the sail (after repairs) and i did find that a fairly horrendous task much more difficult than removing/replacing our trad main - it took three people - i do our main alone or with the assistance of one other.   And as the boat was at anchor for a week while the main was repaired i had to pull a line up the foil with loops around the foil at about five feet spacing and take a line from each of the loops and back to the end of the boom to hold the foil tight against the mast and stop the foil bouncing about and crashing into the mast and keeping the whole anchorage awake never mind the owners of the O440

Tis a bit like SSB in my mind - buying the set is just the start - etting it to work properly is a hit and miss operation - installation is a black art - ometimes this works sometimes it does not - then you need to learn how to operate it - and you need to keep your hand in by using it lots then it is both expensive and is a very power hungry device which contradicts and defeats our plans to reduce A/H usage.

regards

David

[ca...@aol.com]

I agree, David. We have had a few problems unfurling our main, never a problem reefing, even in gale conditions. I figure if American Promise made it around the world (60' Hood) and is still sailing even after being sunk by the Naval Acadamy here in Annapolis. It is a huge investment to make the mods needed to go from in mast to traditional, and for us, not having to fiddle with going on deck when reefing past the second reef is a big safety issue.

 

Cap in MD

[rob]

go to http://www.yachtingtv.co.uk/ and watch the videos -- dismasting,
jury rig, rollover, holing, etc. all with their test boat, along with
practical advice.

I would add a storm sail/trysail track to the mast and mast steps (we
did). I do not have a roller furling main but I understand they are
weakest when heavily reefed, and it does not take a lot of gale force
hours to beat the up that last little bit of sail you left hanging
out. Mast steps (we used these:
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/productgroupdetail.aspx?cid=143614&keywords=mast+steps
) to make rig inspection and repair easier.

LED masthead tri-light/strobe.

a 'speedy stitcher' (http://www.speedystitcher.com/) and beeswax are
worthwhile in the sail repair kit. I find it faster and easier than a
palm and needle.

An inner forestay or solent stay for a high aspect jib and/or a storm
jib for when it gets tough. with the solent you have wider downwind
options in lighter conditions, with the inner forestay/cutter option
you have a better heavy weather rig with the COE closer to the mast,
as well as a better stayed mast in general. FWIW, we went cutter.

Review the rig and ensure the mechanical advantage for all systems is
optimal for the weakest crew member. Garhauer has reasonably priced
stuff to use to upgrade. We added advantage to the vang, upgraded
winches and tackles, improved genoa cars etc. to make adjusting
everything easier.

Add a good, easy to rig/adjust preventer system for the boom. Adding a
boom bail, padeye or similar at the end of the boom for the preventer
will also allow you to use the boom as a davit or crane and is a
worthwhile and easy addition for lifting heavy stuff aboard (batteries
and the like). It can be used in MOB situations as well.

A spinnaker pole (minimum) or strong whisker pole (preferred) or one
of each (best) for sailing off the wind in variable or light
conditions. Each with good topping lift and downhaul rigs.

Series drogue and a sea anchor -- these do different things and both
are worthwhile. Series drogue is a stowage issue, they are big. Like
the liferaft, storm sails and first aid kits you hope you never need
them.

For a liferaft, check out the online plastimo store (http://
www.plastimousa.com/Suplus%20Stock.htm) they usually have liferafts
near to needing a repack at great deals.

For a general outfitting and safety equipment guide, the offshore
sailing regs are a good place to start (http://www.sailing.org/
specialregulations.php) also the Pacific Cup, ARC, Vic-Maui, etc. and
other race/rally sites for checklists.

Lifesling is a must IMHO. Upgrade as at:
www.cruisingclub.org/pdfs/dl.asp?fn=safety_lifesline_prep_guide.pdf

Remember that when on passage, half the time you will be working in
the dark (because it is night-time) so good headlamps or similar,
liberal application of reflective tape (end of poles, boom, spreader
tips, etc.), easy to discern by touch items, flashlights (preferably
LED) liberally strewn about the boat, etc. are all in your best
interest. Lights and reflective tape on PFDs and throwable safety gear
likewise.

Rob
Avant
First 435

p.s. make a list! ;)

[rob]

boom preventer discussions:

http://sailmagazine.com/boatworks/sails-and-rigging/boom_time/
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/08/preventer/

We went with end-boom, with the forward block a few feet forward of
the mast (we have slotted aluminum toerails).

Lines are rigged from a boom bail at the boom's end to the gooseneck
with a spliced eye at the gooseneck end (held there with shock cord
when not in use), and are snap shackled to the line that continues
through the toerail block aft to the cockpit to deploy. 'Fuses' can be
inserted at the join, and having the two part-er means you don't need
access to the end of the boom to rig the preventer.

Rob
Avant
First 435

[Jeff]

Great stuff everyone. Following is a quote from Rick Donovan I lifted
from the general post introducing this subject. I copied it here to
keep organized.


my first comment here is that the goal should be to do everything you
can avoid the need for "survival sailing" for the sake of the boat and
crew. you do that by getting serious about learning all you can about
weather and then staying on top of the local weather every day, even
several times a day. in todays world there is little reason I can
think of to get "caught" in bad weather. there is too much information
available to have that as an excuse.

I also am a sailor that prefers the traditional main sail over the
furling main. but as far as I know it is not as simple as installing a
traditional sail in place of the furling sail. I believe the mast is
very different as well which would require changing the mast and
standing rigging. we all know that Jeff is not going to replace his
mast to get a traditional main so he has what he has to work with.
there has been lots of discussion over the years right here about
problems with the furling of the main sail and much of it seems to be
caused by a lack of maintenance like the furling line swelling up from
collecting salt, lack of lubrication at critical points, the outhaul
car causing problems and the sail itself being "bagged out" and
binding inside the mast. before any long trip it would seem that a
close look at all of those known problems and correcting them will go
a long way towards solving the common issues people have with this
system of furling. with those known problems taken care of properly,
that should reduce his chances of this being trouble for him greatly.

I believe reefing the boat correctly and quickly becomes a high
priority if you plan to go into heavier weather than you might
normally sail in. you need to know exactly what sail combination works
best for your sailing style. some folks always reduce the genoa first,
no matter what, particularly those with a traditional main because it
is easier. this may not always be the best combination for the
conditions and sailing direction. if I were going down wind in a
breeze, I want as much sail as far forward as I can get to help drive
the boat down wind. in that case I would first reef the main. but if I
were going hard on a reach, I found the 473 liked the 150 furled first
in most reaching conditions, so not every scenario should be handled
the same. figuring this out is best accomplished in my mind by lots of
regular practice in conditions where you won't hurt anyone or damage
the boat. practice makes perfect is the old saying right?

if possible have a smaller genoa on your furler when weather is
expected. a full 135 is much more efficient than a 150 furled to about
135. a 135 will not be as efficient rolled to 100% as a 100 would be,
etc. if you needed to beat upwind, that might be the difference
between making your waypoint or tacking several times to get there. I
think from my experience that a 150 often turns into a liability on a
true off shore run in all but the most settled conditions. if I were
going off shore and I had a 130-135 headsail available, that is what I
would put on the headstay of the 473. the 150 is just more than you
need for all but very light air in my opinion.

and keep in mind that not all reefing is done for the purpose of
taking the heel away. I have had trips where I needed to slow down to
arrive in daylight. I have had trips where running to fast in the
current sea was beating us up. I have had situations where the 473
just wanted to go to damn fast for the sea conditions and not because
the boat was out of control or hard to keep on course. we just wanted
a better motion from the boat in the existing sea state.

a sea anchor is just what it says, it allows you to anchor the boat at
sea. the guy I did deliveries to the Bahamas with has had one for
10-12 years. he takes his boat to the Bahamas or back to Maine every
spring and fall in that time and it has never been out of its bag as
far as I know. this is one of those items that if you need it, it is
nice to have but we have to question the real chances that it will be
needed. if you stay in the normally suggested sailing seasons, the
chances are good that it will never need to be used making it hard to
justify the cost and the space it takes up onboard. a drogue slows the
boat thru the water. they manufacture specific products for this or
you could improvise using your anchor rodes behind the boat as they
have done for hundreds of years to accomplish the same thing.

Rick Donovan
Bideford, Maine