Autopilot driving me nuts

[GBS]

Hey All, 

First, we have a 99' Beneteau 361 and my autopilot is the original Raymarine st4000 auto pilot with a raymarine compass in the starboard settee.

so I've finally started looking at my autopilot, after having the boat for 8 years I figured it was time to see if I can properly configure it. Thru out the years I've just lived with my autopilot 7-year old piloting skills of going back and forth, it has worked for putting up sails, cracking open a beverage and when I get REALLY tired of driving myself, but after getting annoyed I flip the handle and take over. 

The issue is that it keeps swerving back and forth on calm day and on compass course, I know there are a million scenarios for debugging this thing, which is why I haven't really studied it closely, but here goes some of the things I've tried:

I've tried to set the parameters on it and I think I got it as best I can (referring to rudder gain and so on)

Done 2 turns, made no difference

Checked magnetic around the compass, its AOK and the heading course matches both compass and GPS.

What I'm starting to wonder if I need either a "rudder position sensor" or a "heading computer". Had a look today and it looks REALLY tight getting a rudder sensor onto the steering quadrant and I'm having a hard time visualizing it. Also, would a heading computer be equal to a rudder position sensor? Reading posts about Raymarine with all their models is mildly confusing.

One thing I know is that it's hooked up to the chart plotter which is a RL70, non-color but has both radar and chart, as I see water temp and other relevant information on the auto helm.

Any help on how to either configure the numbers on the box so it maybe it'll steer better or if the above equipment would help, and if so, anyone installed it on a 361? 

thanks!

[Guy Knight]

Hi,

I've similar problems, I've got a Garmin Auto Pilot, linked to a B&G hydraulic ram. Some times it works fine other times it appears to lose its connection and steers off  by about 30 degress without explanation. A real pain. Also anyone have any ideas?

Guy

PS Ive an Oceanis 411

[ourdr...@gmail.com]

I learned early not to use “Iron Mike” when passing under or near bridges.

I assume it is the iron and steel that affects the compass.

 

Bob
S/V Our Dream
'97 Beneteau Oceanis 351 #195
Slip C-17, Castle Harbor Marina
Chester River Kent Island
Chester, MD
_/)__/)__/)_
·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·
´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

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[Cap Munday]

We had that problem when ever we passed along the Elizabeth River in Norfolk. At one point our knot meter had us up to 635! No sonic boom noted. We never had the problem with bridges that I noted but I always hand steered under the suckers. 

Cap Munday

S/V Zydeco

Beneteau 473

[GBS]

In my early days of playing with autopilot and being impressed it can navigate thru waypoints I had one time set a waypoint route I wasnt expecting and it did that, passengers were impressed but not me trying to get a bite to eat and already frustrated with the poor steering the thing was doing. Really hoping I can figure this out but also maybe I'm holding my pilot to too high a standard, does everyones autopilot go straight enough to call it equal to manual operating?

 

I've seen posts about metal and compass being impacted by something in the boat and some have found sources like boots, wires, speakers and blenders... one thing I'm wondering is if a rudder position sensor would be analog enough not to be impacted but things like that... but the install looks painful.

[wewag...@gmail.com]

I just discovered a quirk with our auto pilot that I am sure happened before.
Last week we were motoring home from a short cruise when the auto pilot swung 10 degrees to port. I corrected course and a few moments later the auto pilot swung again.
While I was trying to figure out what the problem was my wife came up on deck with a nice hot lunch.
Bingo!
The inverter is not far from the auto pilot compass and my wife had turned it on to run microwave.

From my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network

----- Reply message -----
From: "GBS" <gaute.s...@comcast.net>
To: <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Autopilot driving me nuts

[GBS]

found some very good links with images for install of pilots and sensor on Beneteaus. it seems the propane tanks were removed for some installations and that's been a big hurdle for me both in my davit planning and now this... Nice posts though and great pictures:

http://forums.beneteau.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=161258&mode=linear

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/beneteau-owners/6lWrad6QO-A

Cheers!

[Howell Cooper]

That might be our problem also.  Thanks for the observation

Cooper

Sent from Coopers' galactic communicator

[Johnny & Doris Ross]

Had a similar problem with the X-5 on our 351 and even ordered another unit,  The new unit also would veer off course for not apparent reason.  Called Raymarine and they were little or no help.  Finally figured out it was the magnetic field generated by the inverter and charger for our cordless tools.  The charger and inverter are 4' from the flux gate  compass, but had to move them to the forward cabin and that made life much nicer.  Good luck

--

[Neal Lindeman]

For your question about a rudder position sensor I finally gave up on the recommended installation on the quadrant
and attached the threaded rod to the steering cable. I screwed the sensor to the underside of the cockpit floor and  positioned arm about perpendicular to the cable at the half way point of the max port to starboard movement.

I share the frustration of the boat waddling on a compass heading, but like you say, it is good enough for short term use.
Neal Lindeman

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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 20:23:00 -0700
From: gaute.s...@comcast.net
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Autopilot driving me nuts

[GBS]

I think I've found a solution that works for my boat, taking my time to look around back there, I'll have to wait for the sensor itself to determine exact location but I thinkth ere are a few options on the port side using the roof of the cabin there. I've purchased the sensor and if I get it installed I'll get some pictures.

 

Wouldnt attaching it to the cable create some strange angles with the sensor being rotary and the cable moving straight? I'll be shooting for 5.5 inches from the rudder center and since the quadrant is solid black plastic looking thing I'm thinking it'll be easy to install two small screws where I need the arm to end.

[Bill Jarvis]

GBS,

 

Do not mount the sensor inverted, ie upside down to the roof of the cabin. That would change the sense of the output. If you have to you may be able to counteract the reversal by reversing the leads.

 

Bill

[Neal Lindeman]

The cable connection works good, but be careful with the threaded rod adjustment so that the travel radius of the sensor arm is not over extended. There was just no room to attach the sensor to the quadrant in my 331...you probably have more room...just a suggestion.

Neal Lindeman

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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:19:36 -0700
From: gaute.s...@comcast.net
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Autopilot driving me nuts

[GBS]

My bad, I'm not installing it upside down, it'll be right side up but it'll sit on the fiberglass on the reverse side of what is the roof of the aft birth but below the cockpit floor, there is a nice gap between them where it should fit. Also I'm planning on mounting it with the sensor "facing forward" as the tie in to the quadrant will be forward of the rudder stock. I'll get some pictures when I get the sensor and mock it up, a picture will show much more clearly what I'll be trying to do.

[GBS]

I'm worried about that on the quadrant too, if I move it too far from the center of the rudder it'll start pushing it too. Maybe I should get my kid to figure out the geometry of this, it's been a while since school :o)

[Bill Jarvis]

Understood.

 

To get the geometry right you will need to have the link arm equal in length to the distance between the center of the rudder shaft and the center of the sensor. Then be sure to mount the centerline of the sensor (ie arm in the middle of its range) parallel to the  line from the centerline of the rudder shaft to the point on the quadrant that the link arm attaches to. One further condition you need to get right is that the length of the sensor arm is equal to the distance from the centerline of the rudder shaft to the point that the link arm mounts. You will then have a simple parallelogram and the sensor will move through exactly the same angle as the rudder.

[GBS]

So mounting the sensor a few inches forward of the port/starboard centerline would be ok as long as the sensor arm is the same as quadrant "arm" and the length between is fixed (the bar)? Would that change the angles for the paralellogram so say a 30 degree starboard really just moves it 20? Maybe it doesnt even matter since I'm looking for more accuracy in the middle but wonder if it might impact other measures the autopilot does, say turn right 30 or a tack.....

[Bill Jarvis]

You want to have the geometry such that with  the rudder dead center, the parallelogram is a rectangle. It can be in any position so long as that condition is met. That means the two long sides need to be equal and the two small sides need to be equal and the angle in each corner is 90*.

[David Fletcher]

I might be wrong however I think thats a rectangle. However I agree you need a parallogram. It any angle is 90 degrees and the opposite side is parallel. Then all inside angles are 90 degrees 

Fletch

David Fletcher

136 Augusta

Blue Mountain

[GBS]

I thought I could install it as a initial parallelogram, not rectangle. I was thought what matters was to get the same lenghts on the rudder quadrant attachment as the sensor arm, then make sure they were centered and attach the rod. as long as the far left/right movement of the arms does not pull the rod too close to the sensor it would still show the correct angle. I'm going for an initial rectangle at dead ahead but I do think I need to offset the sensor, or build some sort of bracket....

[GBS]

found the install manual and it clearly says

With the rudder amidships, ensure that the Rotary Rudder Reference Transducer arm is opposite the point of cable entry and at 90° to the connecting bar. If any minor adjustment is necessary, loosen the three securing screws, rotate the Rotary Rudder Reference Transducer body to achieve the required adjustment, then re-tighten the screws.

 

Which means back to the drawing board for me....

[David Fletcher]

I believe, when I say that my boat is far away. That my oem Beneteau install has two swivel balls. One on each end of a rod. ONE ON THE QUADRANT AND ONE ON THE SENSOR. Then when the quadrant moves the angle to sensor rod can change and the distance remain fixed.

Take a look on the Raymarine website and look at an install document.

I believe you will see two balls to allow for the change in angle as the qudrant moves

FLETCH

[Bill Jarvis]

Exactly. A rectangle is a special case of a parallelogram, all the angles are equal.

 

Bill

[GBS]

OK so I'm moving along to the installation part of this sensor, I've figured a good mounting position and it looks as though I have to pint the sensor arm aft and mount it on the firward part of quadrant so probably need to reverse wires, which Raymarine says is OK.

 

This weekend I could find no way to get my drill to the right position to drill the quadrant mount due to aft cabin wall. My options are to get a smaller drill, which I'm working on, or take the quadrant off, drill and back on. Is taking off the quadrant something that can be done in the water or will the whole rudder fall off if I take the quadrant, or some wrong bolt, off? I was able to get the sensor side mocked up with a light duty wood mount that'll be replaced with something more durable when tested.

 

I'll definately report if this sensor installation paid off with a less drunk autopilot, if I ever get it completed....

[GBS]

oh and anyone know what material this quadrant is? I'm guessing metal but has a thick coat of paint so almost feel like a type of plastic....

[Neal Lindeman]

The quadrant is a soft aluminum alloy. It will be tedious to remove as there are at least two hard to get at bolts out of  at least four bolts. You might be ahead just spending the $$$ and installing the gyro compass that they offer rather than the sensor. I installed the sensor and the boat still waddles along. This might just be a setting that can be made on the calibration, but it suits my purpose for the rest of the season...I do not use the autopilot for way point navigation.

Neal Lindeman

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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 13:58:13 -0700
From: gaute.s...@comcast.net
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Autopilot driving me nuts

[Captain Guy]

Rudder sensor is not worth the cost... the adjustments that can be made plus the data from the course computer/gyro make a big difference.

 

Never saw a boat under 60’ that holds a good course in a seaway, even with HD a/p’s...

 

great for ICW and motor sailing, but don’t get anal on course keeping.  Hand steering is only way to go.

 

Guy

[GBS]

I thought my st4000 only handled the rudder sensor since thats the only input, well in addition to the Seatalks... so I can connect my compass to a Gyroplus device then Seatalk that to the autopilot? I read that it needs to send both seatalk and NMEA, seatalk for initializing and nmea to send continuous signal.

 

I like the installation but some of the documentation of these devices from 99 and limitations that were in place, later updated, now outdated worries me purchasing a $400+ device and not have it be compatible. I'm putting this on hold for now, atleast I know there are big improvements in this field and updating 15 year old electronics is both tricky and could be a short term solution.

 

thanks!