Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
B331
I have posted before on my issues with rounding up, but despite my
best efforts this is still a serious problem with our sailing in 12 to
18 kts. To help explain my issue let me describe our most recent
example.
We were sailing in ~12kts of wind with the jib at 50%, the genoa car
all the way back, the traveler all the way to leeward, and the main
sheet let out so the boom was over the rail. Also the vang was tight
but not overly so. I should also mention we were sailing close hauled
at about 60 degrees.
Suddenly the wind gusted to ~15kts. The boat experienced extreme
weather helm which I attempted to compensate for by turning the wheel
hard over. This did not abate the boat turning into the wind, and it
continued to do so until the boat was more the 90 degrees off its
original track.
I read that there are a couple of things one might do to tame the
boat, without having to constantly reef the jib and main:
1) Rake the mast forward
2) Get more twist in the mainsail
3) I read in another post that adding more area to the rudder may
help (expensive and difficult)
Of these it seems raking the mast may be an option, but I am not sure
how to do it on a B331, and whether it would really help. Getting
more twist in the mainsail also seems unlikely to help since I already
had the traveler to leeward.
As I am not an expert trimmer I was hoping someone could offer some of
their experience on a possible solution.
Thanks.
Bob
ca...@aol.com
From: B331 <rol...@optonline.com>
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:04 pm
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
All, I have posted before on my issues with rounding up, but despite my best efforts this is still a serious problem with our sailing in 12 to 18 kts. To help explain my issue let me describe our most recent example. We were sailing in ~12kts of wind Is this true or apparent wind speed?
with the jib at 50% of what? Was it at the 1st, 2nd or 3d stripe on the foot of the sail?
, the genoa car all the way back, Do you mean that the car was moved aft? You want the car
moved forward as the genoa is reefed to make the head and foot luff evenely. With the
car moved aft the head would luff as the foot would be flat. This gives the boat
all heel and no drive.
he traveler all the way to
leeward, and the main sheet let out so the boom was over the rail. Also the vang was tight but not overly so. If the vang was tight there would be no twist in the main.
I should also mention we were sailing close hauled at about 60 degrees. I consider 60 apparent degrees more like a close reach
or full and by, not close hauled. Apparent wind would be more like 40 or
less close hauled. Suddenly the wind gusted to ~15kts. The boat experienced extreme weather helm which I attempted to compensate for by turning the wheel hard over. do you mean attempting a turn to leward to compensate for increased weaher helm?
This did not abate the boat turning into the wind, and it continued to do so until the boat was more the 90 degrees off its original track.
In gusty conditions I like to have someone at the mainsheet to ease it in gusts.
This keeps the boat flat and prevents rounding up in puffs.
Last weekend we were sailing in apparent winds of 8 to 15 knots with full sails
and no problems. Our genoa car is moved to a postion where head and foot luff evenly and
in a few puffs of 20 kts I eased the mainsheet to keep the boat flat (a friend was steering).
If your sails are old and 'poochie' you might want to recut or replace them. Blown out
sails cause heel, not drive.
Another cool plan might be to hit J world! I'm thnking about that myself. Great first
hand sail trim lessons. I have a tough time sorting out the main.
I read that there are a couple of things one might do to tame the boat, without having to constantly reef the jib and main: 1) Rake the mast forward 2) Get more twist in the mainsail 3) I read in another post that adding more area to the rudder may help (expensive and difficult) Of these it seems raking the mast may be an option, but I am not sure how to do it on a B331, and whether it would really help. Getting more twist in the mainsail also seems unlikely to help since I already had the traveler to leeward. As I am not an expert trimmer I was hoping someone could offer some of their experience on a possible solution
. Thanks. Bob -- Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing. Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
Bill Jarvis
As the wind build you need to successively depower. Weather helm comes from
a lack of fore and aft balance of your sail plan relative to your under
water foils.
Under the conditions you mention I would have the vang hard on, traveler all
the way down and would be playing the mainsheet in the gusts to control
heeling and weather helm.
I also might not have reduced the genoa as much as that has the effect of
moving the center of effort aft, and as roller furling is not roller reefing
it tends to make the reduced fore sail too deep and powerful just when it
needs to be flattened. Given your experience I would reef the main first
keeping the full genoa. If that was too much I would change down to a
smaller flatter headsail.
The key is maintaining balance.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of B331
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 10:04 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
All,
Thanks.
Bob
--
Carl Ramsey
fully over to leeward ,,,and you say you are close hauled...??????? if you
can explain a little cleare maybe we can help...ie,,,,how much sail out,
wind strength/direction, tack, etc etc ,,,,,,I will try and help
you.........Carl
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Jarvis" <bjar...@suddenlink.net>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 3:51 AM
To: <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
Brian Smith
What is the age of your sails? If they are old and bagged out, what you are explaining will happen regardless of trim in those conditions.
Brian
Oc381
Annapolis
Guy
(Center of effort) back and driving hte boat into teh wind (wx helm)... reef
main proportionally with headsail
-------------------------------------------------
Captain Guy
New Smyrna Beach FL USA
386-689-5088
-------------------------------------------------
s/v Island Time (Beneteau 352#277)
AICW 845.5
Rick Donovan
On Sep 9, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Bill Jarvis wrote:
> Bob,
>
> As the wind build you need to successively depower. Weather helm comes from
> a lack of fore and aft balance of your sail plan relative to your under
> water foils.
> The key is maintaining balance.
>
> Bill
I would like to add to this question beyond what Bill and Cap have mentioned already and I have some questions and comments. once again I need to apologize in advance to the list for the length of my reply. I hope all will agree that this is not a simple yes or no type question to answer.
many cruisers do not understand the importance of sail adjustments in conditions like you describe. there are so many items to consider that help you control the boat in gusty conditions like you are asking us about. I expect that there will be several things to work with that may help. this is not likely to be one small adjustment and the problem goes away. that would be much too easy. this is not limited to the equipment on the boat either. the sailors aboard during these conditions have extra things to do to counter the sailing conditions you describe. because there could be a long list of things to consider, I wanted to stick to the more common errors that I have seen people deal with over the years I sailed.
you may not like this news, but it is very very common on a cruising boat to have sails that are not in good condition. I and many others have heard those folks try to explain that these sails are only .... years old!! how can they be worn out already, they came new with the boat in 2002, I only use them 3 times a summer, etc. I have seen sails destroyed in an afternoon because of using them in more wind than the design was built for, so it doesn't take years to wear out the sails, it takes misuse in a lot of instances. it doesn't matter the reasons, the important thing to remember is that not all sails are created equal for a lot of reasons. the design of the sail and the sail cloth chosen to build that design being the two most important in my opinion. we have touched on this subject a bit this week when talking about the Neil Pryde sails that Beneteau uses as the OEM sails on our new boats. Neil Pryde is more than capable of building great sails, but if they are required to use the wrong sail cloth, the wrong sail design etc the sails are still junk, right out of the box.
as an example. when we purchased our new 473 in 2002 it came with an option called a "performance sail upgrade" to the OEM sails. these cross cut designed sails were not right the first time we put them up at the dock, but I knew what I had, I would have to live with. the Beneteau dealer could not and would not do anything about it anyway. to my eye, the genoa was much to flat and the main sail much to full to work properly together. they also were a cross cut design which is marginal at best for performance to go along with the term Performance Upgrade that the option was called. anyway, the quality of workmanship was great on both sails, no complaints there at all with Neil Pryde. the problem was the weight of the dacron sail cloth they, Beneteau, spec'd and the cross cut sail design. the sails might as well have been made out of a handkerchief for a performance guy like me. the other cruising sailors that purchased a new 473 that year may not have even noticed, for years.
the point being, a strictly cruising sailor is much less likely to notice the small things that I am going to be looking for. that is both good and bad at the same time. it is good because you will not be trying to chase sail adjustments that I can see but can't keep in place because of the bad choices Beneteau made in the materials within the sail they spec'd to NP. it is bad because when you finally ask questions about why I am having the problems you described in your question, the sails can become a major piece of the problem.
more to your question: the condition of the sail cloth in the main sail and genoa is going to affect dramatically the draft position under the gusty conditions that you are describing. draft position is a very important part of the answer you need to help settle the boat down in those conditions. if you do not have the "eye" needed to honestly assess the real condition of your sails, halyards etc, see if you can find someone with more experience that can offer their opinions. take them out for a sail in windier conditions if possible. let them help you with sail adjustments in an effort to flatten the sail which in turn reduces the available power of the sails and can reduce heeling motion and the effort required to steer the boat in those gusty conditions.
you can also take photos from under the sails when loaded up and trimmed in your normal conditions and show those photos to a sail maker for their opinion. you may want to speak to your sail maker about the best angle to take these photos before actually doing that to be sure the angle is going to help them evaluate what we are talking about.
what kind of shape is the sail cloth in?? are your sails the original Neil Pryde that came with the boat or have they been replaced by a tri radial sail design. by that I mean does the sail cloth stretch dramatically when the wind builds. this applies to both sails, if they do stretch, the draft of each sail will be moving aft. this will cause the center of effort of the sail plan to move aft and the result is weather helm. there are adjustments available to work with a sail that will respond to that adjustment. sail cloth that is blown out does not respond well to those adjustments but they may still help some.
in my opinion, raking the mast forward before looking at a bunch of other possible problems would be a mistake. I also suspect that even if you feel raking the mast forward helps, it would not help all that much because the top of the mast would need to go forward a very long way to move the center of effort of the sail plan enough to eliminate the steering conditions you have described.
it is my opinion that adjusting the draft in the existing sails is going to get better results. if the sail or more accurately the sail cloth is in good condition, this is done with halyard tension and out haul tension on the main sail and halyard tension, sheet tension, genoa lead position and fore stay tension on the genoa. the depth and location of this draft in each sail is more than likely much of the reason for your steering and heeling problems. add to this that it has been my experience with the Beneteau designs in general that the hull shapes need to be as flat as possible in those gusty conditions means reefing before most cruising folks are thinking about doing that. the racing boats add crew weight to the rail to counter the wind speed and resulting heeling. that allows them to carry more sail area in higher wind speeds than the average cruising boat. the normal cruising boats just do not normally have that luxury of crew weight hanging around.
if you happen to have a shoal draft model, keeping the boat flat is even more important. again, this is my opinion only. think of it this way. as the boat begins to heel with pressure on the sails from building wind speed, the hull rolls slowly to port or starboard creating the heel you see and feel on deck. as the heel passes a certain point, the rudder is no longer as deep in the water as it would be when sitting level with no heel. as a result of the heeling, the available surface area of the rudder that you are steering the boat with when heeling is reduced.
add to that problem the simple fact that the rudder motion from left to right when trying to make helm corrections for a gust is no longer pushing the stern directly port or starboard as it would be when motoring for example. at more severe heeling angles the rudder is actually trying to lift or pull down at the stern due to the angle of the hull relative to the waters surface. this small detail all by itself is going to reduce the efficiency of the rudder but when you add to the problem that a boat that is trying to round "up" as most do in a gust, what your rudder is really trying to do when you counter steer the boat, it is really trying to lift the stern and force the bow down wind.
with a reduced surface area actually in the water, and what rudder surface area is still in the water in these conditions makes the rudder work very near the surface of the water, this is a lot to ask of the rudder. the next thing that comes is a bit more helm input from the helmsman because the first correction didn't really help and now we create the next problem. the flow of water over the rudders surface "stalls" and the rudder looses all remaining bite it had in the water. the boat continues to round up until the heel is reduced and or the flow reattaches to the rudder surface where the helmsman now feels some control again from the rudder and can turn back down wind.
if the boat is rounding "up" i.e. up into the wind, it is most likely caused by excess force to the rear of the sail plan as Bill was mentioning. I also would agree that you try reefing the main first to see if you think this helps your situation. just maybe your model wants the main reduced first.
Bill and Cap also mentioned playing the main sheet. this needs to be done as the gust hits the boat, not a reaction after the fact, by then it is to late. by that time the boat has already heeled and started to round up by changing course. if you have crew willing to be an active participant in this exercise during gusty conditions, you are in good shape once you find what works for your boat. anticipation of the gust is key in my opinion.
if your crew is the type that is holding on for dear life anytime the boat heels more than 5 degree's and would not be willing to release their death grip long enough to ease the main sheet for you, then you need to find another method of luffing the sails. in this case, with practice, you may be able to anticipate the gust by watching for "dark" spots on the water upwind of the boat and steer the boat up 10 degrees or so to luff the sails slightly as the gust hits and then turn back down as the gust goes by.
here in northern New England, a gusty NW wind direction after a storm passes are similar to what I get from reading your description and can be very frustrating for newer sailors. that NW wind is often changing direction in 15-30 degree increments as the wind speed quickly jumps with each direction change. I discovered long ago that it is not uncommon to have the NW wind start out at say 300m at 14-16 knots true, stay that way for about 6-8 minutes then jump immediately to 330m and jump up to 18-20 true for the next 6-8 minutes, then jump again to 350m and 22-25 true for another few minutes and then slam right back to very close to the original wind direction and speed of 300m and 15-16 true and it will often repeat that pattern over and over again unit the wind direction finally goes back to our more normal SW direction of our sailing season. if you have sailed enough to pick up this wind pattern it is not nearly as challenging as it would be for someone not expecting this to be happening.
these kinds of conditions can become very trying for any sailor as with each wind speed and direction change he/she needs sail adjustments made to compensate. for many boats, this example of wind speed would start at the upper end of using their full sail plan and quickly jump into a range where a reef should be put in to adjust the boat. if you decide for whatever reason to fore go a reef, the boat control suffers. the old saying is that you "adjust for the gusts" when cruising. a racing crew will be very busy making the small adjustments to the sails trying to maintain boat speed in these hypothetical conditions. a cruising boat is generally looking for control more than boat speed in a scenario such as this. so reefing early is the usual method to deal with this scenario if reducing the power of the sail plan by flattening of the sail shapes has not been enough.
there are classes available that are meant to teach the basics of these sail adjustments to the cruising sailor. there are also classes available for racing that are much more involved. I have attended several from North Sails over the years but other sail makers do this as well. the North Cruising seminar may be a great place to start. they tend to run during the winter months so it could be a great way to pass time this winter. these seminars are very informative for someone that has no idea what is available to them for adjustments all the way up to the upper echelon of the racing tactics.
take a look at this web page for more information.
http://www.northu.northsails.com/Seminars/CruisingSeamanship/tabid/1394/language/en-US/Default.aspx
http://www.northu.northsails.com/Seminars/RacingTrim/tabid/1460/language/en-US/Default.aspx
I would be happy to answer any more specific questions you have on this off line.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
Neal Lindeman
I do not normally reef until about >16K. In about the 20K range I have the jib at 100% (clew at the shrouds) with the car even with the midship cleat. The main is pulled out until the Neil Pryde insignia can be seen (about 75%). If I have too much weather helm I will drop the traveler. This is good until >20 and then more main comes in and then more Jib and then we cry uncle.
Neal Lindeman
> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:04:22 -0700
> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
Denny Wertheimer
Thanks for the great post. I learn more from you than any book i have read.
--
Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
--
Denny Wertheimer
314-330-5001
Sail...@aol.com
> --
> Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
> Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
> http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
> To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
> contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
Noble, Milner E.
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Denny Wertheimer
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:50 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
Noble, Milner E.
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:50 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Thomas Lucke
Very nice discussion of a complex topic.
One book that I found particularly helpful around the issue of managing all of the various trim combinations was "A Manual of Sail Trim" by Stuart Walker. The book (at least for me) did a nice job of balancing theory with practical suggestions about how to manage a range of situations.
A useful concept in the book is the idea of "gears". Walker introduces the idea of the "Go gear", "Low Leeway Gear", "Pointing Gear", "Starting Gear", "Wave Control", "Gust Control" and "Heavy Air Control". These are basic settings for twist, vang, outhaul, cunningham, and traveler for the main, as well as jib twist, luff and lead. He does a good job of explaining the why of the baseline settings, and then talks about reasons for making adjustments from those baselines (including sail selection). The basic idea is that if you understand the why of the baseline, and make adjustments from there, it will make it easier for you to figure out the optimal sail trim for you boat based on conditions.
Tom Lucke
Tout a l'Heure
F345
Noble, Milner E.
--Milner
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Lucke
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:12 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
JoeT
such a book. I'm not that interested in racing, I just want to sail
smooth and straight. Nothing makes me look worse to a group of guests
on board than to be fighting the helm and constantly rounding up. I
hate that!
Bob (B331), Have you downloaded the Neil Pryde Sail Tuning Guide for
the B331? ( http://www.neilprydesails.com/pdfs/331%20Tuning%20Guide.pdf)
The guide for my B343 was a great help in setting up the genoa cars
and understanding how to use them. Sure, you move the cars back to let
more twist in the genoa and de-power it, but that is countered by them
generally needing to more forward as the genoa is furled to keep a
consistant angle to the clew as it moves forward.
I've also fought this problem alot. My best success has been proper
use of reefing. The adage of reef early really does help. The times
I've been lazy and/or too shorthanded to reef are when I fight it the
most. Just easing the sails to almost luffing doesn't seem to help
that much unless I actually fall off. Here's one possible explanation
I've not seen that may help understand the problem: Start by assuming
you are somewhat balanced between main and genoa. You can think of the
force vector as a) forward force and b) sideways force. Mainly we
think of balancing the sideways force of the two sails around the
center of lateral resistance in order to control weather/lee helm. But
the forward force still come into play. If you are close hauled and
the sails are close in and reefed well, the forward force component
acts fairly close to the centerline of the boat. But as you ease the
sails, especially the main as Bob was doing, the forward force vector
also appears to act farther out away from the mast resulting in a
turning force on the boat, adding to the weather helm problem. Thus,
de-powering the main by easing the sail, is not equivalent to de-
powering by reefing.
Joe Tomberlin
Regina del Seni, B343
>
> read more »
Rick Donovan
On Sep 10, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Thomas Lucke wrote:
> "A Manual of Sail Trim" by Stuart Walker.
Tom
I read this book years ago and although it is dated and as I recall is geared a bit more towards racing than cruising, I feel it still gives some great descriptions on what can be done with certain situations, what a sail shape is and how the correct shape looks in a photo, etc. be warned ahead of time, it may be a bit dry and technical for most but there is a ton of usable information in those pages.
for someone brand new to sailing, the learning curve is very steep. there can be so much more to sailing than just throwing the sails up if that is what you want. for folks that like to learn, sailing is a constant lesson if you are paying attention.
I have always felt there is no better way to gain experience than to sail on a well organized race boat to see how things should be done and then try as best you can to work those lessons into your every day sailing. as an example, the techniques for choosing the favored tack or gybe should be a standard practice for us all, it really is a very simple thing to figure out. it is not unique to the race boats. some scoff at this theory, but I believe in it completely. my years on race boats allowed me to safely get from point A to point B many times with hardly a hiccup when others didn't go out at all. there is just no better way to gain experience than time on the water.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
Rick Donovan
On Sep 10, 2010, at 11:55 AM, JoeT wrote:
> I've also fought this problem alot. My best success has been proper
> use of reefing.
something else came to mind as I read JoeT's reply that I want to pass on.
when we sail in typical summer breezes that we have encountered many times before, there is nothing new to worry about. you can be "lazy" to use the term. you can entertain the guests while running the boat quite easily. nothing happens at a speed that is unusual.
when you start to venture out into heavier conditions, that all changes. the loads are much higher, things happen faster, the heeling is much higher and most important is the loss of some control of the boat due to these heavier winds. throw in a good sea and life aboard can change very dramatically. just moving around on deck can become a major hurdle.
we don't need to experience a hurricane. all that has to happen to push us outside of our normal envelope is about 10 knots of wind speed above our normal sailing wind speed. this extra air will push many of us into virgin territory or at the very least into rarely experienced conditions. we don't get to practice reefing in heavy air, we don't get to practice for steering in a big sea. sometimes it just happens when we least expect it. usually at a time when you are not ready to make the decisions that need to be made. reefing early is one of the most basic things we need to know yet each and every one of us will put that off as long as possible, myself included.
whenever conditions get outside our comfort zone we will be prone to making mistakes. in heavy air those mistakes can come in the form of broken gear, injuries and mayhem. or any combination of the above. I made it a practice in spring and fall to go out on the bay to experiment with our boats whenever we had more wind than normal. I would be under somewhat controlled conditions, relatively close to home and help would be near by if something really bad happened. even a short time putting in a reef and then shaking it out was better than never having tried until I needed to do that. for instance, what happens to a sloop if you let it alone completely with no sails up in 30 knots? what happens under main alone in 25 knots? how does the boat sail with the genoa only? can I motor upwind in 35 knots? those kinds of questions I tried to get answers to on those more rowdy days of spring and fall.
you don't need to do this stuff all day long, but an hour or two is a great investment in your safety should you encounter the same conditions down the road.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
B331
Wow lots of responses. I will try to reply to most, and follow up
later as time permits. Here it goes,
Many folks here suggested I look at the sails. They are maintained
regularly by Doyle, the jib was repaired and both were cleaned last
winter. They are 10 years old so it is very possible they are gone, I
will ask the sail maker. Maybe I can get by with just replacing the
jib?
I should note I have a classic main with a Doyle stack pack, its shape
seems to look good to me. But what do I know!
Replying to Carl's question I admit my post didn't make sense. I
thought I was closed hauled when I wrote it, but on reflection I
couldn't have been. I think the apparent wind was coming from about
the front starboard quarter, so I was not close haled but perhaps
closer to a reach. When the boat got a mind of its own and I was
frantically trying to avoid crashing into something I forgot the
detailed situation.
Rick, your post is excellent I appreciate it. My sails are the
original NP sails, I asked Doyle about their condition, they suggested
they were ok for a cruising boat whatever that meant. I like the idea
of taking pictures of them, I may even ask Doyle to go out with me.
Unfortunately of course they charge for that. I guess you convinced
me to defer raking the mast until I understand the condition of the
sails better. I don't usually play with halyard tension. I usually
just tighten them as much as possible. The main halyard is new, but if
it is already tight why would I need to adjust it in these conditions?
The jib halyard is brought to a clear on the main so I cannot adjust
it. I used to own a pearson 30 and it never had these characteristics,
but its hull design is completely different. If I can be convinced new
sails would solve this I'll go for it.
Tom thanks for the suggested book, I'll get it.
Joe yes I have used the tuning guide, but it hasn't helped this
problem for me.
No one mentioned so far the twist of the main to depower it. That is
bring the traveler into the wind, drop the boom to centerline, and
loosen the vang. I suspect if the sails are bad as Rick suggested even
this wouldn't help?
I'll talk to the sail maker first to try to ascertain the condition of
the sails.
Thanks a lot all.
Bob
On Sep 10, 11:55 am, JoeT <joetomber...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Thanks Rick for the book suggestion. I've been on the hunt for just
> such a book. I'm not that interested in racing, I just want to sail
> smooth and straight. Nothing makes me look worse to a group of guests
> on board than to be fighting the helm and constantly rounding up. I
> hate that!
>
> Bob (B331), Have you downloaded the Neil Pryde Sail Tuning Guide for
>
> read more »
Thomas Lucke
On Sep 10, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Rick Donovan wrote:
>> "A Manual of Sail Trim" by Stuart Walker.
>
> be warned ahead of time, it may be a bit dry and technical for most
Rick,
Yeah, agreed. But my "inner engineer" really enjoyed it.
A bit more techie is a book I got for my J24 racing friend (who is also a helicopter engineer) on they physics of sailing. That takes technical to another level . . .
Tom
Jack Vetter
the buck resource that exists is.....
The North U Trim Book. $20. More info than all but the hard core engineer
types and professionals will ever need.
North U racing book is good too.
The Weather book, not so good as the others.
My .02
Jack
Jack Vetter
Tutto Bene
Beneteau First 38s5
Sacramento, CA
916-441-4441
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Lucke
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:01 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Rick,
Tom
--
jwshukis
unexpected. Something must be "wrong". A Beneteau cruising boat will
certainly have significant weather helm in that amount of wind with
all sails full, but nothing that the rudder can't handle fairly
easily. Now get to 18-20 knots and you're in the realm where you
*need* to shorten sail on such a boat.
Based on your description, I have a few theories for you to try:
1) You should not have furled the jib. The first sail to shorten
should be the main. Think of weather helm (very crudely) as the main
overpowering the jib to spin the boat. Shorten the jib first and you
make the problem worse. On my boat, I start shortening the roller
furling main at about 17-18 knots of consistent wind and don't touch
the jib until about 20. I like it when the boat is very near neutral
helm, which is quite easy to do with a furling main.
2) Your jib car position was likely not helping. I have the car "all
the way back" only with a full jib and light winds. Locate a copy of
the "tuning guide" for your boat for good guidance.
3) Your sails may be shot. There is no evidence for this theory in
your email, but it's quite common to see sails so baggy that they
cause similar problems. Have someone evaluate your sails if you can't
do it yourself. By the way, one of my first sailing "Aha" moments was
the day I replaced the stock sails with nice mid-grade laminates with
Vectran. For my B40, it made a huge difference in how the boat felt -
for the better.
Once the above issues are sorted, stick to the "standard recipe" for
handling increasing winds:
1) Flatten the sails. Tighten halyards, cunningham, vang, sheets,
outhaul, and the backstay if you have an adjuster. Watch a race boat
in high winds - huge sails but set very very flat. I start flattening
a bit at around 15 knots and have things very tight at 20, scary tight
at 25.
2) Lower the traveler at the first sign of weather helm to de-power
the main. I am lazy and preemptively lower the traveler a bit at
around 17 knots. A racer would probably laugh at me for this.
3) Reef the main when the winds get consistently higher than your
boat's "threshold" for requiring reefing. I start reefing at around 17
or 18 knots. Because I have a furling main, I can reef in small
increments.
4) Reef the main and jib in concert as the winds keep increasing to
keep the helm balanced to your preferences and the heel angle
comfortable. In high winds you'll see me with as little as 1/3 of my
sail area out, but still hitting 8 knots easily.
After dialing in my "reefing plan" on this my first boat, I can now
sail fast, flat, and very comfortably across the San Francisco bay
"slot" in 25-30 knots of wind with fingertip control. It's a blast.
Only if these relative common issues don't work would I start looking
at less common (and more expensive) fixes like mast rake and rudder
design.
Jeff
Rick Donovan
>
> 1) Flatten the sails. Tighten halyards, cunningham, vang, sheets,
> outhaul, and the backstay if you have an adjuster. Watch a race boat
> in high winds - huge sails but set very very flat. I start flattening
> a bit at around 15 knots and have things very tight at 20, scary tight
> at 25.
> 2) Lower the traveler at the first sign of weather helm to de-power
> the main. I am lazy and preemptively lower the traveler a bit at
> around 17 knots. A racer would probably laugh at me for this.
> 3) Reef the main when the winds get consistently higher than your
> boat's "threshold" for requiring reefing. I start reefing at around 17
> or 18 knots. Because I have a furling main, I can reef in small
> increments.
> 4) Reef the main and jib in concert as the winds keep increasing to
> keep the helm balanced to your preferences and the heel angle
> comfortable.
jwshukis comments are pretty good on what to adjust, he obviously knows his boat quite well. but keep in mind his 40 foot boat is likely going to sail into a higher wind speed than your 331. my comments are meant to try to not get to technical, yet get the message across that there are other things to consider before rakeing the mast or redesigning the rudder.
On Sep 10, 2010, at 1:06 PM, B331 wrote:
> They are 10 years old so it is very possible they are gone, I
> will ask the sail maker.
assuming the sails are junk may be using the wrong terms to describe the problems. a baggy sail shape can be caused by many things, including rig tension, halyard tension, back stay tension, etc making the right adjustments most certainly could dramatically improve the sailing characteristics as long as the sail cloth the sails are constructed with do not continue to stretch. with the sail material 10 years old, I would have to guess the original shape is long gone but that is not a guarantee. with an onboard inspection, the sail maker may be able to offer a recut of the luff but I would be sure to get him/her onboard for a look before doing that.
On Sep 10, 2010, at 1:06 PM, B331 wrote:
> I don't usually play with halyard tension. I usually
> just tighten them as much as possible. The main halyard is new, but if
> it is already tight why would I need to adjust it in these conditions?
> The jib halyard is brought to a clear on the main so I cannot adjust
> it.
we had a brief discussion about halyards earlier this week. my message is that even though the halyard is new, is it the right for your sailing? as everything else these days running rigging has gotten to be very specific for the loads a particular line is going to handle. did you buy a cheap 3/8" halyard off of Ebay and that is what you are calling a new halyard? probably not, but it makes my point. new does not mean correct for the application.
the halyard adjustment is a key part of getting even a brand new sail to fit the boat properly and is especially important on an aging sail. the sail designer has spent a fair amount of time trying to get the best aerodynamic shape to fit your boats parameters when they design the new sail. the halyard, the out haul etc are your responsibility to adjust properly to repeat the design shape when the sail is used on your boat.
"tightening as much as possible" can pose other problems that you are not aware of. if we need more halyard tension in heavy air, then it only makes sense that we need less in light air. I think the key to understanding why, is to understand what happens when you make a halyard adjustment. by tightening the halyard, you are putting pressure into the sail cloth. if you were to hold a hand towel by 3 corners like a sail is positioned and then pick any one corner to stretch tighter, you would see the material shift towards the tensioned side. an airplane wing has an aerodynamic shape designed into it that does not change with speed. and a sail also has an aerodynamic shape "cut" into the cloth during assembly that is critical in getting the performance from the sail. on a sail boat that shape can be adjusted with controls onboard the boat because the sail is soft. in light air, you need a different sail shape than you do in heavy air. if you were to leave the same heavy tension in the sail during light air sailing, the draft would be very far forward and affect the trim angle and performance of the sail. in short by leaving the halyard at one setting, it affects performance on all your sailing days except the one exact day where that particular setting happens to be perfect. this halyard tension is meant to be an ongoing adjustment and is adjusted many times in a race by a competent race crew to adjust for changing conditions.
lets try this. if your sail is all "bagged out", the halyard tension moves that bag forward and aft within the sail. based on what you have written so far, the draft position is what I feel is the biggest part contributing to your weather helm. when the bag moves aft, the center of effort moves aft and that aft position can add to the feel in the helm. move that draft far enough aft and allow the draft to get deeper contributes heavily to the heeling of the boat. bottom line is that a flatter sail is going to spill more energy away from the sail plan than a full sail would. that will reduce heeling. that will reduce weather helm in most cases.
you stated that you had a traditional main with lazy jacks. that is good from where I sit because that sail is much more adjustable than a furling sail will be. if the leech reef points are positioned properly, you should be able to get the sail, particularly the bottom of the main sail, board flat. that flat sail shape would go a long way towards helping helm and heeling. if you can not get the sail very very flat, take a hard look at how the leech reef points are set up. find a way to move them aft on the boom if at all possible.
you stated the genoa halyard is cleated off at the mast and is not really adjustable. if you were to tie a loop into the halyard well above the cleat, you could rig a block and tackle set up from the deck to the loop that would allow halyard adjustment there as well.
I can't stress enough that knowing how and when to use these adjustments may go a long way toward curing your problems.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
ca...@aol.com
This has been a great thread. Thanks for the excellent advice and reading recommendations. I'll stop by North Sails to pick up the trim book.
From: jwshukis <jwsh...@yahoo.com>
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> wrote: > All, > > I have posted before on my issues with rounding up, but despite my > best efforts this is still a serious problem with our sailing in 12 to > 18 kts. To help explain my issue let me describe our most recent > example. > > We were sailing in ~12kts of wind with the jib at 50%, the genoa car > all the way back, the traveler all the way to leeward, and the main > sheet let out so the boom was over the rail. Also the vang was tight > but not overly so. I should also mention we were sailing close hauled > at about 60 degrees. > > Suddenly the wind gusted to ~15kts. The boat experienced extreme > weather helm which I attempted to compensate for by turning the wheel > hard over. This did not abate the boat turning into the wind, and it > continued to do so until the boat was more the 90 degrees off its > original track. > > I read that there are a couple of things one might do to tame the > boat, without having to constantly reef the jib and main: > 1) Rake the mast forward > 2) Get more twist in the mainsail > 3) I read in another post that adding more area to the rudder may > help (expensive and difficult) > > Of these it seems raking the mast may be an option, but I am not sure > how to do it on a B331, and whether it would really help. Getting > more twist in the mainsail also seems unlikely to help since I already > had the traveler to leeward. > > As I am not an expert trimmer I was hoping someone could offer some of > their experience on a possible solution. > > Thanks. > > Bob -- Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing. Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
Ted Weitz
Ted Weitz
B323 "Gossamer Wings"
Three Mile Harbor, East Hampton, New York
--
Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
--
Ted Weitz
tm...@columbia.edu
Noble, Milner E.
--Milner
Sent from my iPhone
To post to this group, send email to <mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com> Benetea...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <mailto:Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com> Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com>
For more options, visit this group at <http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners> http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact <mailto:denny.we...@gmail.com> denny.we...@gmail.com<mailto:denny.we...@gmail.com>, or <mailto:ume...@comcast.net> ume...@comcast.net<mailto:ume...@comcast.net> if you have a list
management question
--
Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
To post to this group, send email to <mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com> Benetea...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <mailto:Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com> Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com>
For more options, visit this group at <http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners> http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com<mailto:denny.we...@gmail.com>, or ume...@comcast.net<mailto:ume...@comcast.net> if you have a list management question
Rick Donovan
On Sep 10, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Ted Weitz wrote:
> But a side benefit of the twin rudders is that the boat tracks incredibly steadily. And as the boat heels, and the windward rudder lifts further from the vertical, the leeward rudder becomes more vertical and digs deeper. I do note some of the all out racing boats are starting to use them.
Ted
I believe there is a very simple answer why more monohulls do not have the twin rudders, cost and complexity of designing the steering system. as you can now attest to, they certainly work well when the boat is pushed hard. the offshore racers have been using them for many years with great success, particularly the French boats. those boats have turned into giant surf boards, lol.
as I recall you are from 3 mile harbor on LI. we have been there in the past with our 473 at just about a 6 foot draft. why the need for the shallow draft model of the 323?? there seemed to be plenty of water there as I remember.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
Ted
Sent from my iPhone
Ivars
the boat is not accelerating when a puff comes through...if the bottom
hasn't been cleaned in more than 2 or 3 weeks... clean it... ( stretched out
/ lost shape ) worn out sails can have a similar effect in that they trap
and hold the air pushing the boat over and causing the rounding up... Both
conditions together will aggrevate your experience double... Review your rig
setup and trim if the sails are worn, some of the sail stretch / loss of
shape can be trimmed out...be aware of what the wind is doing, stay on top
of your sail trim and proper helming... It's more you as the owner / driver
and your control / condition of your equipment...most likely very cheap to
fix... A little TLC and understanding should cure all...
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of B331
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 10:04 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
All,
I have posted before on my issues with rounding up, but despite my best
efforts this is still a serious problem with our sailing in 12 to
18 kts. To help explain my issue let me describe our most recent example.
We were sailing in ~12kts of wind with the jib at 50%, the genoa car all the
way back, the traveler all the way to leeward, and the main sheet let out so
the boom was over the rail. Also the vang was tight but not overly so. I
should also mention we were sailing close hauled at about 60 degrees.
Suddenly the wind gusted to ~15kts. The boat experienced extreme weather
helm which I attempted to compensate for by turning the wheel hard over.
This did not abate the boat turning into the wind, and it continued to do so
until the boat was more the 90 degrees off its original track.
I read that there are a couple of things one might do to tame the boat,
without having to constantly reef the jib and main:
1) Rake the mast forward
2) Get more twist in the mainsail
3) I read in another post that adding more area to the rudder may help
(expensive and difficult)
Of these it seems raking the mast may be an option, but I am not sure how to
do it on a B331, and whether it would really help. Getting more twist in
the mainsail also seems unlikely to help since I already had the traveler to
leeward.
As I am not an expert trimmer I was hoping someone could offer some of their
experience on a possible solution.
Thanks.
Bob
--
Pegasus
Joe Sircely
On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Rick Donovan <rdono...@maine.rr.com>
wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:00 PM, jwshukis wrote:
bill n
when it's windy.
One practical suggestion I can make is to make sure the rudder is
always clean. The rudders are small and I found that any barnacles/
debris lessens the 'bite' of the rudder and lessens ability to steer -
giving appearance of weather helm and increasing chance of rounding
up.
Over 20 knots, the main has to be reduced way back. I had a friend
that used to just use the jib.
Rick Donovan
On Sep 12, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Ivars wrote:
> what is the condition of your bottom... it sounds like
> the boat is not accelerating when a puff comes through
great point Ivars. a dirty bottom can certainly contribute to the problem
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
Mike Friedman
tiller can become a handful(two) close hauled at 18- 20 knts apparent with
the traveler above the midline to the windward, easing the traveler to the
leeward and some outhaul easily solves the issue. We tend to first reduce
the jenny from 130 to 100% when first reefing followed by putting in the
first reef in the main if the wind increases and a further reduction of sail
area is needed thereafter, then again reduce the jenny and then the 2nd reef
in the main somewhere between 25kts and 30 knts. But then, our hull shape
and appendages differs from most Beneteaus which probably have a greater
initial form stability.
Mike Friedman
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of bill n
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 2:55 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
--
Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a
list management question
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 5445 (20100912) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 5445 (20100912) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
Rick Donovan
On Sep 12, 2010, at 2:54 PM, bill n wrote:
> I do think Bene boats generally have more than typical weather helm
> when it's windy.
I always suspected the wide stern sections of the modern Beneteau's played a big part in this premature weather helm problem if we should call it that.
it seems logical to me that in the process of trying to get the modern yachts interior to look like a floating condo, to get more woman interested in sailing, there would seem to be a trade off when the boat gets powered up in a breeze. combine the wide stern with a shallower draft that most require and that seems like a great place to look at as a potential trouble spot to me but I am not a designer.
anyone else care to comment on that thought?
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
dduh...@gmail.com
small adjustment will make a huge difference. When I first sailed my
First 353, it had severe weather helm. The whole rig was too loose as
well. Tightening the shrouds alone, improved the problem
considerably. Shortening the forestay by an inch brought me to
neutral helm. Later, I replaced the roller furling headstay and
ended up with a lot of weather helm again (evidently didn't get my
measurement quite right on the installation). I then shortened the
forestay by a little over an inch to get neutral helm. I won't
discount the affect of sail condition and trim but if the rig is not
correct, you will never get a balanced helm no matter what you do to
your sails. I had a rigger inspect my rig and pointed me in the right
direction. With study of my own, I eventually figured out how to
adjust not only rake but the entire rig. That said, I recently found
I had gone from neutral helm to some weather helm with no change
whatsoever in rig or sails. To my amazement, cleaning the bottom
brought me back to neutral helm. So, take care of the easy stuff
first but don't discount rig adjustment.
Denis
On Sep 10, 8:58 am, "Noble, Milner E." <Milner.No...@vtmednet.org>
wrote:
> --Milner
>
> ________________________________
> From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Denny Wertheimer
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:50 AM
> To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
>
> Rick
> Thanks for the great post. I learn more from you than any book i have read.
>
>
> On Sep 9, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Bill Jarvis wrote:
>
> > Bob,
>
> > As the wind build you need to successively depower. Weather helm comes from
> > a lack of fore and aft balance of your sail plan relative to your under
> > water foils.
> > The key is maintaining balance.
>
> > Bill
>
> I would like to add to this question beyond what Bill and Cap have mentioned already and I have some questions and comments. once again I need to apologize in advance to the list for the length of my reply. I hope all will agree that this is not a simple yes or no type question to answer.
>
> many cruisers do not understand the importance of sail adjustments in conditions like you describe. there are so many items to consider that help you control the boat in gusty conditions like you are asking us about. I expect that there will be several things to work with that may help. this is not likely to be one small adjustment and the problem goes away. that would be much too easy. this is not limited to the equipment on the boat either. the sailors aboard during these conditions have extra things to do to counter the sailing conditions you describe. because there could be a long list of things to consider, I wanted to stick to the more common errors that I have seen people deal with over the years I sailed.
>
> you may not like this news, but it is very very common on a cruising boat to have sails that are not in good condition. I and many others have heard those folks try to explain that these sails are only .... years old!! how can they be worn out already, they came new with the boat in 2002, I only use them 3 times a summer, etc. I have seen sails destroyed in an afternoon because of using them in more wind than the design was built for, so it doesn't take years to wear out the sails, it takes misuse in a lot of instances. it doesn't matter the reasons, the important thing to remember is that not all sails are created equal for a lot of reasons. the design of the sail and the sail cloth chosen to build that design being the two most important in my opinion. we have touched on this subject a bit this week when talking about the Neil Pryde sails that Beneteau uses as the OEM sails on our new boats. Neil Pryde is more than capable of building great sails, but if they are required to use the wrong sail cloth, the wrong sail design etc the sails are still junk, right out of the box.
>
> as an example. when we purchased our new 473 in 2002 it came with an option called a "performance sail upgrade" to the OEM sails. these cross cut designed sails were not right the first time we put them up at the dock, but I knew what I had, I would have to live with. the Beneteau dealer could not and would not do anything about it anyway. to my eye, the genoa was much to flat and the main sail much to full to work properly together. they also were a cross cut design which is marginal at best for performance to go along with the term Performance Upgrade that the option was called. anyway, the quality of workmanship was great on both sails, no complaints there at all with Neil Pryde. the problem was the weight of the dacron sail cloth they, Beneteau, spec'd and the cross cut sail design. the sails might as well have been made out of a handkerchief for a performance guy like me. the other cruising sailors that purchased a new 473 that year may not have even noticed, for years.
>
> the point being, a strictly cruising sailor is much less likely to notice the small things that I am going to be looking for. that is both good and bad at the same time. it is good because you will not be trying to chase sail adjustments that I can see but can't keep in place because of the bad choices Beneteau made in the materials within the sail they spec'd to NP. it is bad because when you finally ask questions about why I am having the problems you described in your question, the sails can become a major piece of the problem.
>
> more to your question: the condition of the sail cloth in the main sail and genoa is going to affect dramatically the draft position under the gusty conditions that you are describing. draft position is a very important part of the answer you need to help settle the boat down in those conditions. if you do not have the "eye" needed to honestly assess the real condition of your sails, halyards etc, see if you can find someone with more experience that can offer their opinions. take them out for a sail in windier conditions if possible. let them help you with sail adjustments in an effort to flatten the sail which in turn reduces the available power of the sails and can reduce heeling motion and the effort required to steer the boat in those gusty conditions.
>
> you can also take photos from under the sails when loaded up and trimmed in your normal conditions and show those photos to a sail maker for their opinion. you may want to speak to your sail maker about the best angle to take these photos before actually doing that to be sure the angle is going to help them evaluate what we are talking about.
>
> what kind of shape is the sail cloth in?? are your sails the original Neil Pryde that came with the boat or have they been replaced by a tri radial sail design. by that I mean does the sail cloth stretch dramatically when the wind builds. this applies to both sails, if they do stretch, the draft of each sail will be moving aft. this will cause the center of effort of the sail plan to move aft and the result is weather helm. there are adjustments available to work with a sail that will respond to that adjustment. sail cloth that is blown out does not respond well to those adjustments but they may still help some.
>
> in my opinion, raking the mast forward before looking at a bunch of other possible problems would be a mistake. I also suspect that even if you feel raking the mast forward helps, it would not help all that much because the top of the mast would need to go forward a very long way to move the center of effort of the sail plan enough to eliminate the steering conditions you have described.
>
> it is my opinion that adjusting the draft in the existing sails is going to get better results. if the sail or more accurately the sail cloth is in good condition, this is done with halyard tension and out haul tension on the main sail and halyard tension, sheet tension, genoa lead position and fore stay tension on the genoa. the depth and location of this draft in each sail is more than likely much of the reason for your steering and heeling problems. add to this that it has been my experience with the Beneteau designs in general that the hull shapes need to be as flat as possible in those gusty conditions means reefing before most cruising folks are thinking about doing that. the racing boats add crew weight to the rail to counter the wind speed and resulting heeling. that allows them to carry more sail area in higher wind speeds than the average cruising boat. the normal cruising boats just do not normally have that luxury of crew weight hanging around.
>
> if you happen to have a shoal draft model, keeping the boat flat is even more important. again, this is my opinion only. think of it this way. as the boat begins to heel with pressure on the sails from building wind speed, the hull rolls slowly to port or starboard creating the heel you see and feel on deck. as the heel passes a certain point, the rudder is no longer as deep in the water as it would be when sitting level with no heel. as a result of the heeling, the available surface area of the rudder that you are steering the boat with when heeling is reduced.
>
> add to that problem the simple fact that the rudder motion from left to right when trying to make helm corrections for a gust is no longer pushing the stern directly port or starboard as it would be when motoring for example. at more severe heeling angles the rudder is actually trying to lift or pull down at the stern due to the angle of the hull relative to the waters surface. this small detail all by itself is going to reduce the efficiency of the rudder but when you add to the problem that a boat that is trying to round "up" as most do in a gust, what your rudder is really trying to do when you counter steer the boat, it is really trying to lift the stern and force the bow down wind.
>
> with a reduced surface area actually in the water, and what rudder surface area is still in the water in these conditions makes the rudder work very near the surface of the water, this is a lot to ask of the rudder. the next thing that comes is a bit more helm input from the helmsman because the first correction didn't really help and now we create the next problem. the flow of water over the rudders surface "stalls" and the rudder looses all remaining bite it had in the water. the boat continues to round up until the heel is reduced and or the flow reattaches to the rudder surface where the helmsman now feels some control again from the rudder and can turn back down wind.
>
> if the boat is rounding "up" i.e. up into the wind, it is most likely caused by excess force to the rear of the sail plan as Bill was mentioning. I also would agree that you try reefing the main first to see if you think this helps your situation. just maybe your model wants the main reduced first.
>
>
> read more »
Howard Green
of effort is aft of the center of lateral resistance. It also arises in part
from sailing a boat healed over too much, because the leeward bow is deep in the
water pushing the boat to weather, while the windward bow is out of the water
and not off setting the force of the water on the leeward bow.
So number one, sail the boat upright. About 14 degrees of heel is
ideal. Don't put too much sail area up. When you have too much sail, it forces
the boat to heel too much which causes windard helm. Also, as commented before,
flatter sails have less camber and less power so you can eliminate heeling power
by flattening the sail. Principally you do this by tightening the mainsail
outhaul. Another thing you can do is loosen the boom vang, which allows more
twist off in the top of the sail, which reduces healing power up high. On the
jib it works to move the jib leads aft, so that when you pull the sail in you
can pull it flatter in the bottom sections, while letting the top twist off to
reduce power up high.
Second, lets look at what causes the center of force to move aft:
Most important is sail shape. It is important to realize that by far
the greatest portion of the power of your sails is created by the vacuum on the
back side of the sail created by air flow over the back of the sail. You need
the point of maximum camber in your sails (which is also the point of maximum
lift) to be forward of the 50% fore and aft point of the sail. That way, the
power of the sail pushes the boat mostly forward instead of mostly sideways.
Sideways push creates heel, creates weather helm.
As the wind gets stronger, there is more pull on the headstay and more
stretch in the sails. These things cause the camber of the sail to move aft in
the sail, and also to bag out in the back part of the sail. That moves the
center of effort of the sail way aft. So this causes increased heeling power
but decreased forward power. So now the boat tends to wallow and round up.
You can offset the movement aft of the sail shape, by pulling the
headstay tighter (you usually use the back stay to do this but maybe in your
case, the headstay is too loose to begin with.) That reduces headstay sag. If
you will sight up your headstay, ideally you want about four inches of sag...no
more than six inches. By keeping sag to a minimum, you keep the camber
forward. Less than four inches of sag is good, but to get it you have to pull
the backstay very tight which unnecessarily stresses the boat.
Just as important, pull the halyards tighter. This also pulls camber
forward. You need to pull the sails tight enough that there is no wrinkling in
the forward part of the sail, but not so tight that there it causes vertical
wrinkles. If you do not have a cunningham on your mainsail, get one. This is
used to pull the luff of the mainsail tighter after the halyard has already been
pulled to the top.
Depending on your rig, if you pull the backstay tighter, you may also
cause a backward bend in the mast. For cruising, no more than 12 inches,
please. That bend will take camber out of the main making it flatter, and move
what camber there is, forward. Ideal is for the point of maximum camber to be
between 33 and 40% aft of the front of the sail.
A final point, reefing the main reduces power so the boat can sail more
upright and reduces sail area aft and allows the center of effort to go way
forward. That always helps weather helm.
On my beneteau 40.7 the rudder provided had not been faired, and the
result was poor shape, so that the rudder would cavitate very quickly and if we
were not quick to reduce sail power, the boat could round up. We purchased a
set of plans for the rudder from the Farr office. We then pulled the rudder off
the boat and using the templates provided in the Farr plans, we reshaped the
rudder. After that, the rudder did not cavitate and we could hold the boat down
with the rudder. This means faster speeds when reaching.
And Bill N is right about a clean rudder. Also a clean bottom is pretty
necessary because the foils on the boat meant to keep it tracking don't work
when there can't be any laminar flow of the water over the bottom and keel.
Howard Green
----- Original Message ----
From: bill n <nov...@aol.com>
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
--
d...@hawaii.rr.com
changed from a fixed to a MaxProp and had great results in reducing
weathhelm.
Dave
B-373
Howard Green
It's really important to realize that as wind speed increases, the
power of the wind on the sails increases with something like the square of the
wind speed increase. So 15 knots of wind gives more than double the power that
10 knots of wind provides. and 20 knots is almost double again.
Looking at the B 311, it's a lot of boat for its size, with a keel
(4'9") and a low 30% Ballast/displacement ratio. Compare that to the present day
Beneteau First 30, also 31 feet and same weight, ballast weight and ballast
displacement ratio, but with a 6'3" torpedo type keel.
Add to this, that the 311's center of gravity is quite high because
of its large high cabin, so when it heels, part of the weight of the boat
actually causes the boat to heel more.
Now then there is the question of how effective the rudder can be.
In boats with shallow draft keels, the rudders also has to be shallow so that
the rudder will not go aground.
Rick's comment on weather helm and fat sterns, is absolutely
accurate in that such boats can lose control quicker, because as the boat heals
in a puff, the rudder comes partly out of the water and the top part of the
rudder is also less effective because of the turbulence of the water caused as
the leeward stern digs in. So the boat loses control and rounds to weather
easier. The deeper keel/rudder boat will not have this problem as much.
So it's important to realize this boat will be tender and the rudder
control will not be great, so that means even if you get everything else
perfect, managing the amount of sail area will be super important as wind
increases. It's the nature of the boat.
Howard Green
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
--
Bill Jarvis
I think that the wider stern was introduced to make the boats more stable
and less "squirelly" downwind.
Production boats have been made lighter and rely more on form satability.
Beneteau has tended to use iron in the keels of many boats and that results
in a higher center of gravity. These two combined make the center of effort
move laterally with heel. It is the lateral movement of the center of effort
of the sail plan that results in a turning moment that has to be offset by
the helm. That is weather helm.
If one can keep the boat flat then weather helm is minimized.
That's where depowering and keeping the main in play come in. Simply telling
the mainsheet trimmer to control the angle of heel and keep it constant will
make the crew happy and the helmsman doing a lot less work.
Maintaining the balance is the key.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Donovan
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 6:09 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
--
David Mackintosh
As to that last post - lead or cast iron keels and a high GoG and form stability have absolutely nothing to do with the CoE of the sails.
They may effect the Centre of Lateral Resistance (CoLR) but even then it is a bit more complex than that - underwater hull shape and keel position/shape being the predominant factors here.
The CoE is only about your sails.
Yes the CoE will move outboard with heel and as it moves outboard it creates a lever arm vis a vis the CoE and CoLR this will tend to turn the boat to windward resisted by applying helm - that standing helm to keep the boat tracking in the wanted direction - is weather helm. Some weather helm is a nice to have situation - running out of rudder authority and constantly / excessively rounding up is a big wake up call that you are doing something seriously wrong. IF you dont understand why you had better get a 'sailing expert' on board to see what is going on and why this is occurring - trying to fix this / or get a solution here is i would suggest impossible.
regards
David
B331
This is a very useful discussion, I think the reason for my reaction
to this issue is that our last boat a Pearson 30 never rounded up to
the extend that the bow moved 90 degrees to starboard which this boat
does. Interestingly thinking about this I can't say I have ever had a
problem on a port tack, only the starboard tack. Also I sighted the
luff and found an excessive amount of loose sail at the tack, even
when the haylard is tightly tensioned.
Note I have a folding max-prop. And the mainsail halyard is the
expensive stuff from West Marine.
I think I need to get an expert on the boat to help out, I may be in
for a new mainsail.
Thanks all.
Bob
On Sep 13, 9:25 am, David Mackintosh <sv.highland.fl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > --
> > Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
> > Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
> >http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
> > To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
> > list management question
Bill Jarvis
David,
“Yes the CoE will move outboard with heel and as it moves outboard it creates a lever arm vis a vis the CoE and CoLR this will tend to turn the boat to windward resisted by applying helm - that standing helm to keep the boat tracking in the wanted direction - is weather helm. “
That is precisely what I was describing in the prior message.
Bill
David Mackintosh
Production boats have been made lighter and rely more on form satability.
Beneteau has tended to use iron in the keels of many boats and that results
in a higher center of gravity. These two combined make the center of effort
move
One thing i dont want to do is second guess what you meant to say but here is my take on this - with Beneteau using bigger rigs in lighter boats that rely on form stability more and using lighter wider shallower hulls and less deep keels made out of a less dense material than lead (cast iron) the boats are not as stiff (or user friendly) as past models - they do heel over more and quicker - you need to keep them on their feet so you dont run out of rudder authority. For sure shallow keels mean shallow rudders and BIG FAT sterns means you tend to drop the bow and lift the stern as the boat heels over - a rather effective way of de-powering a centre mounted rudder - and a great reason for having twin rudders. So it is all additive :-( In a modern Bennie you need to be ahead of the game in a breeze or the boat will take over and you quickly run out of rudder authority and become a passenger.
regards
David
Brian Smith
__________________
Brian Smith
OC381 LiWei
Annapolis
> contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
>
ca...@aol.com
Ivars
Brian Smith
The sail is being constrained by the bolt rope from completely flattening.
Brian
Mark J Wilme.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Capt Brian
Geometry of Reefing". It discusses the center of effort, which sails
should be reefed first base on type of boat. On our B's it states that
the 1st 2nd and 3rd reefs should be put in the main before reefing any
jib for a 105 geny. In strong winds I usually sail only on the jib
and have had no problem.
Brian
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Scott
I feel your pain. I have a 373, coming from the old IOR style boats
(Pearson 35). Had full 150+ genny, sailed with main and full genny
until till 20kts, no reefing. Rail down, maybe luff the main a bit,
and just drive on thru.
The 373 has excessive weather helm (just as you described, not just
regular weather helm that you play with the backstay to take care of);
in the yahoo forums there are 2 owners who sold their boats because
they were trying to sail like I just described above.
To compound my problems, I mostly sail single handed for day sails.
Winds where I am are constantly 15, but I have learned that 15 means
20 later on.
For just day sailing by myself I go out genny alone in these winds.
Boat gets it's drive from the foresail, and it sails very nicely. I
can do about 6+ kts with genny alone.
Secondly, I cut down my 135 to a 110. If you look at the new Bs, they
are coming with a 105. I think they have learned their lessons.
Thirdly, when I do go out with both sails at 15kts, knowing it will 19
later, I will usually not pull out the main all the way (I have a
roller furling main). I pull it out until the B shows.
I know. It seems wierd. I almost broached with full sail once when a
gust hit like 24. I couldn't believe it. With the Pearson, I had my
150 and full main at close to this, how could I almost broach!?!
I do have my halyards tight, I ease the traveller etc. Bottom should
be clean. Rig should tuned. But truthfully, when I first got the boat,
and I have been sailing for 45 years, including racing from Lasers
thru several day coastal races, so I think I know something about sail
trim, I wasn't sailing the boat correctly. having full main and full
135 at 16-19 just over powered this boat. It was too much sail. The
boat does great with this much sail at 8 kts, but in 8 kts of wind ,
it is my iron genny doing the work.
Reduce sail is my answer. This may not be what the Firsts do, what the
J boats do, etc. But I am not racing, when I am out for an afternoon
sail by myself or with non sailing friends, whether we are doing 6.5
or 7kts is meaning less. But it makes the boat sail very well. The
boat behaves very well with the 110 and furled main up to 20-22.
My only issue is that I cut down the genny as an experiment, and it is
poor sail. The better solution would be to have a 110 made with the
correct shape. But before I spent 2k on a new sail, I wanted to see if
this would work well, and for $400, it made me want to keep sailing my
boat.
My 2 cents for what it is worth after all these technical discussions.
But I had your problem, know your pain, and have a solution that works
on the 373, I bet it will on the 331.
Howard Green
get a lot of cabin space, but you have to manage performance
a more. But if you do it right, the performance can still
be made to be very rewarding.
With roller furling you can regulate the size of your
sails and the amount fore and aft to manage helm.
I would suggest you consider a roller furler for your jib
if you don't have one. Then get the jib with it you need to drive
the boat at 8 knots and don't be afraid to sail with it partially rolled up
when the wind begins to blow.
I sail a "First". Mine is a 40.7 but the 36.7 is also a
great boat also. That generation of firsts are more of a compromise
that gives you still a pretty roomy boat, but sailing characteristics more
stable. (Of course we are still jealous of all that room in the
Oceanis boats when we are all at anchor).
I just want to say that using OEM sails is like taking your wife
to the kings ball in a walmart dress.
We use roller furling sails made of pentex fabric which is
a light durable dacron hybrid fabric that I highly recommend.
We use them in club and competitive racing and they last years.
At 12 to 30 knots of wind they keep us competitive enough to win occasionally.
We have three roller furler jibs: a 150, a 125 and a short luff 100. Remember
on a roller furler you lose some sail area at the bottom. So subtract 10%.
because roller furler sails are so flat, and pentex doesn't stretch, we can
sail
with more headstay sag to get sail shape or tighten to depower,
and still maintain performance.
Howard Green
----- Original Message ----
From: Scott <jbi...@gmail.com>
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 4:43:48 PM
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
B331,
--
Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list
management question
ca...@aol.com
Our C&C 29 was like your Pearson. We would get it on its side and crank with little fuss, but not the broad bummed B. I remember hearing from 461 owners (a Farr design) that it sails more like the IOR boat. Right after we took delivery of our B, we sailed with a 461 from Annapolis over to St. Michals and we pointed and footed just about evenly. I forget who won ... Hmm.
From: Scott <jbi...@gmail.com>
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Need Help with Excessive Rounding Up
B331, I feel your pain. I have a 373, coming from the old IOR style boats (Pearson 35). Had full 150+ genny, sailed with main and full genny until till 20kts, no reefing. Rail down, maybe luff the main a bit, and just drive on thru. The 373 has excessive weather helm (just as you described, not just regular weather helm that you play with the backstay to take care of); in the yahoo forums there are 2 owners who sold their boats because they were trying to sail like I just described above. To compound my problems, I mostly sail single handed for day sails. Winds where I am are constantly 15, but I have learned that 15 means 20 later on. For just day sailing by myself I go out genny alone in these winds. Boat gets it's drive from the foresail, and it sails very nicely. I can do about 6+ kts with genny alone. Secondly, I cut down my 135 to a 110. If you look at the new Bs, they are coming with a 105. I think they have learned their lessons. Thirdly, when I do go out with both sails at 15kts, knowing it will 19 later, I will usually not pull out the main all the way (I have a roller furling main). I pull it out until the B shows. I know. It seems wierd. I almost broached with full sail once when a gust hit like 24. I couldn't believe it. With the Pearson, I had my 150 and full main at close to this, how could I almost broach!?! I do have my halyards tight, I ease the traveller etc. Bottom should be clean. Rig should tuned. But truthfully, when I first got the boat, and I have been sailing for 45 years, including racing from Lasers thru several day coastal races, so I think I know something about sail trim, I wasn't sailing the boat correctly. having full main and full 135 at 16-19 just over powered this boat. It was too much sail. The boat does great with this much sail at 8 kts, but in 8 kts of wind , it is my iron genny doing the work. Reduce sail is my answer. This may not be what the Firsts do, what the J boats do, etc. But I am not racing, when I am out for an afternoon sail by myself or with non sailing friends, whether we are doing 6.5 or 7kts is meaning less. But it makes the boat sail very well. The boat behaves very well with the 110 and furled main up to 20-22. My only issue is that I cut down the genny as an experiment, and it is poor sail. The better solution would be to have a 110 made with the correct shape. But before I spent 2k on a new sail, I wanted to see if this would work well, and for $400, it made me want to keep sailing my boat. My 2 cents for what it is worth after all these technical discussions. But I had your problem, know your pain, and have a solution that works on the 373, I bet it will on the 331. -- Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing. Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
bruce dunham
From: "ca...@aol.com" <ca...@aol.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 10:52:10 AM
Brian Smith
bruce dunham
From: Brian Smith <Li...@StargazerSystems.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 11:23:28 AM
Brian Smith
Rick Donovan
On Sep 13, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Brian Smith wrote:
> One of the things I've had happen to older sails on two boats now is that the boltrope will shrink. This makes it so that no matter how much tension is on the main halyard, the sail doesn't get the right shape. When a sailmaker releases the boltrope and re-sews, the shape is improved drastically.
>
>
> __________________
> Brian Smith
I had long forgotten about this but I had a main sail recut on our first boat to see what the shape would be before spending money on a new main sail. we had a couple of ideas that we wanted to try and decided to use the old sail to experiment rather than a new one. anyway, at one point my sailmaker, now my ex sail maker, recut the luff of this sail. I installed it and went sailing to see what we had accomplished. the sail looked terrible. nothing I did could get the draft forward where it belonged, it looked like the halyard was down 3-4 maybe even 6 inches when I had it hauled back up to marks on the halyard that I had used for the past several seasons reliably. I couldn't figure it out.
I went in the his sail loft the following monday afternoon to talk about the problems I had and in a very rude manner began to basically tell me that just like most of his customers, I didn't know what I was doing, blah blah blah. needless to say I wasn't happy with the attitude, but since I am more than capable of making mistakes I talked him into going for a quick sail the next afternoon to see what was going on. we went out, he adjusted all the same things I did and then after trying to hide his mistake, he announced that the bolt rope did not get stitched back in place after making the new luff curve. he then charged me for his rework and for his time out on the water that afternoon. that explains why he is the ex sail maker.
so, it is a long shot, but a bolt rope coming loose, broken, stretched out, etc is something to consider.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
David Mackintosh
regards
David
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
--
Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
Mark @ Beneteau List
Once memorable trip (Calais, France -> Ipswich, UK) was seldom below 30kt true with gusts at 40 true. No drama or stress on either the crew or boat.
Mark