YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom

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Taner HALACOGLU

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Sep 16, 2010, 3:52:50 AM9/16/10
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I think that you have to align the pitch to a higher value this way you can achieve higher speeds in less rpm. My friend has a 473 with max and makes 8 knots in 2700 rpm I know that he has change the pitch to higher 2 times and achieve this result.

-----Özgün İleti-----
Kimden: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] Yerine Oasis 473 Huntington, NY
Tarih: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:31 AM
Kime: Beneteau Owners
Konu: Re: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom

I saw where James responded and he indicated SOG (speed over ground)
which would vary quite a bit depending on the tides. I was referring
to my boats speedometer on a slack tide. I don't know the size of my
max prop so that could be a factor, and I do not know my SOG at slack
tide but I felt I was not getting much more than 7 knots on the
speedometer at 2800-2900 RPM and I doubt that I have ever gotten 9
knots even at full power. Also James I have had my boat four years now
I never cruise above 3,000 RPM although I understand the full power
less 10% formula or around 3,400 RPM is acceptable operating RPM,

I do know that from sailing from Huntington, NY to St Thomas, BVI the
fuel consumption is extremely important and at 2,800 .RPM it seems to
me that when I have to motor that I am getting the best fuel
consumption as it relates to the knots I am getting.

On Sep 15, 11:14 am, "Kidd, James" <jk...@kaydon.com> wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> ...Evening sarcasm while having a beer with friends..we were all speaking of sailing last wknd hitting 11kts at times...
> I have done quite a bit of motoring this summer (my first year with this 473)..with no help from currents, I can consistently do 9+ at 3300 RPM (allowing me to make dinner reservations on time) etc.......(And..equaling the speed of many of the Trawlers in Sag Harbor)..which makes me love this boat!
> I have 76HP, and 20" Max Prop..by the way, PYI Inc states that you can also use 19" Max Prop, and I wonder how that changes things.
>
> James
>
> ________________________________
> From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> To: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wed Sep 15 11:03:19 2010
> Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom
>
> James,
>
> I assume you were kidding. If you read the other posts you will see that 7 knots at around 2500 RPMs for a 473 is about right. Hull speed is 9.2. I can easily get that without max rpms. CAPM cruises extensively and you will see his response as well. I would be very interested in what you get on your 473 with max prop and 76 HP Yanmar. I am a releatively new 473 owner and always trying to learn more about my boat.
>
> Larry
> s/v TraSea
> Beneteau 473 #25
>
> --- On Tue, 9/14/10, Kidd, James <jk...@kaydon.com> wrote:
>
> From: Kidd, James <jk...@kaydon.com>
> Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom
> To: "'benetea...@googlegroups.com'" <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 8:04 PM
>
> Were you dragging a stern anchor?
>
> James
> ________________________________
> From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> To: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tue Sep 14 17:42:53 2010
> Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom
> 7 knots 2500 rpm. easy running. I can get hull speed without maximum rpms.
>
> Larry
> s/v TraSea
> Beneteau 473 #25
>
> --- On Tue, 9/14/10, Oasis473 <oasis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Oasis473 <oasis...@gmail.com>
> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom
> To: "Beneteau Owners" <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 5:02 PM
>
> To my fellow 473 owners with a maxi prop:
>
> What kind of top end speed and cruising speed are you getting out of
> your B473 on a calm day, clean bottom and a 76 hp engine?
>
> Jack
> Oasis473
> Huntington, NY
>
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Howard Green

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Sep 16, 2010, 1:07:14 PM9/16/10
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I think this is an excellent result. Better yet would be 7.5 at 2200. Close
calculation, assuming a sailing lwl of 45 feet, the hull speed is 8.988. As
you approach hull speed, the resistance factor goes up astronomically so tryiing
to do better than this will cost a lot of fuel and engine stress and would also
require a lower pitch to deal with the greater resistance also causing more fuel
cost.



Howard Green

David Mackintosh

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Sep 16, 2010, 3:44:04 PM9/16/10
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 A few thoughts i don't think you can overstress a marine diesel unless you grossly over prop it

This is not a car or a truck slogging up a hill in too high a gear you have a soft fluid connection between the engine and the drive prop/water - not a hard fixed connection like wheels/road.

Also the engine manufacture governs the engine to a maximum RPM you can run it all day and night at that speed and all you will do is burn a lot of fuel and make a lot of noise you wont do the engine any harm.

The square root of WL x 1.34 is very outdated now for calculating max hull speed for a modern flat bottomed fat lightweight hull.

We have seen over 12 knots on our 461 towing a big rib and we have a three bladed fixed prop both of which must be worth another two knots boat speed were they not there - we normally cruise at 8 knots under sail 6 under engine both towing that 12' AB RIB. The 461 is a much more boat shaped boat than a 473 which is much more like a cruising version of an imoca 60 or a big version of the Mini 6.50. i would expect to see 10 knots easy peasy on a well sailed 473 and 8+ knots under engine without straining anything.

regards

David

Howard Green

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Sep 16, 2010, 9:21:29 PM9/16/10
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        I am here in Hawaii, where we regularly experience seas of 8 to 12 feet and our every day wind is 18 to 20 knots.  All systems get tested every day to the max.  My experience is that the manufacturers try to do a good job and often do, but sometimes don't.  So I don't take things to the limit because I don't want something to break when it wouldn't have if I were a little more moderate in my use.  I guess if you could take it to the limit in protected waters where you could run it for a while to find out what if anything breaks,  then you could have more confidence in the ocean. 
        On the formula. The hull speed formula is what it is because it is roughly the formula for the speed waves travel that have a period from crest to crest of  the length we use as lwl.  Hull speed is apt because to the extent a boat exceeds that speed, it has to climb the crest of its own wave in effect, sailing up hill.   True the new designs do blur the hard limit of hull speed, and the flat bottoms and pointy bows do allow us to float high and cut through the waves we are creating and thus exceed hull speed somewhat in flat water, but especially when surfing.  But it takes a lot of power to keep us in that mode.    and thus I think the hull speed formula is still good and it's still true that when a boat approaches hull speed resistance increases way out of proportion to resistance at slower speeds.  So for the purposes of this discussion it is still a very useful number.

Howard Green




From: David Mackintosh <sv.highl...@gmail.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 9:44:04 AM
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom

David Mackintosh

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Sep 17, 2010, 2:34:14 PM9/17/10
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Have you seen a Pogo 6.5 - yes 6.5 meters - 21 and a bit feet long - at speeds up to 20 knots and they cross the Atlantic doing these sort of speeds under auto pilot.  One just went all the way round the world single handed.  The square root of 1.34 WL formula (DLR) for boat speed is not valid for a modern boat not even something like a Bennie O473 If you don't grossly overload it and have a decent set of sails and know how to get the best out of them.

For sure 12 knots in a 461 is pushing the envelope but is not sailing at the limit  I reckon that is 15/16 knots with a nice sized kite.   For sure you have many more HP than you can get out of the engine even the 75HP Turbo version when sailing at these speeds and extreme this is not as i am sailing two up 90% of the time and she loves it when we are thundering along.

As to the governor being taking things to the limit why do you think the engine manufactures set it that these RPM hardly because this was dangerous or going to be running the engine at the limit - it is stet to precisely stop you being able to do that.

When Group Finot started designing boat for Beneteau - boats like the O473 and other GF designs they were all based on the fine bow fat transom shallow hull form.  The Finot IMOAC 60 style of boat with a cruiser slant rather than a racer slant - these are boats that laugh at and ignore the displacement hull speed rule.  This is a complete change from the early German Frers designs   Yes a Frers First 42  First 456 and First 51 - boats i know rather well were limited by the DLR and driving them past that was difficult as all they did was dig a bigger and deeper hole in the water  Bruce Farr also designs boats that laugh at the DLR.. The Farr F45f5 / O461 for sure does not dig it's own watery grave that it cant climb out of and neither will a GF designed O473.

Here is some on limit sailing - boats that have never heard of displacement hull speed limits   Remember these are mostly sailed by decidedly mad French people :-) ENJOY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUwD-px_bg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCf6nXivleI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUwD-px_bg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co89cacGODg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSat_lqUvhg&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jYn87ZlYAA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehm345gKwZE&feature=related

here one even flies a kit with a video camera

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCf6nXivleI&NR=1

regards

David

Mark J Wilme.

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Sep 17, 2010, 2:42:44 PM9/17/10
to Beneteau Owners
Isn't 1.34 for a displacement hull - as soon as we get into planing hulls it no longer applies.

Or not ?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From: David Mackintosh <sv.highl...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:34:14 +0100

Howard Green

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Sep 17, 2010, 3:07:04 PM9/17/10
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              Yes that is exactly correct.  Using a formula for the displacement length ratio,  (it's in the US Sailing instruction site) you can calculate how relatively heavy the boat is in relation to its length.  If a sailboat has a ratio of 70 or below it is considered to be one that planes fairly well reaching in 15 knots of wind. By my experience with my Farr 38, after we lightened it up to about 10000 lbs, the ratio was about 110 and in strong wind reaching, if we could catch a wave to get started we could plane pretty long...maybe 45 seconds.   As the ratio goes up,  planing is not really a factor unless you have an awfully lot of engine power.  I have never planed in my 40.7 but we have had speed bursts of up to 18 knots surfing on waves.
               To calculate the formula correctly you have to use the actual sailing water line length.   For a Beneteau 473 I am thinking it is going to be something like 150 to 170. 
 
Howard Green




From: Mark J Wilme. <mark....@gmail.com>
To: Beneteau Owners <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 8:42:44 AM
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

David Mackintosh

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Sep 17, 2010, 3:20:48 PM9/17/10
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Yes but how do you define displacement hull?   That line is very blurred now and it is so blurred in my mind as to be not a valid measure any more.

If you apply enough HP and you stop digging a hole in the sea does that make you a displacement hull or a planing hull?

Or does it mean that you have beaten the displacement hull drag rule and you are surfing somewhere in between displacement sailing and planing

I have had 12 knots out of an 461 with 38.93 foot WL   On a displacement hull speed calculation the absolute maximum speed is 8 knots so i am 50% over that and this is pulling a big heavy RIB and with a three bladed fixed prop - i would say both are at least worth 2 knots of drag - do explain that to me - for sure the 461 does not have a planing hull form.

as you so rightly put it IT IS NOT any more :-)

regards

David

Howard Green

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Sep 17, 2010, 6:11:00 PM9/17/10
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             Unless a yacht is lighter than air, it is a displacement yacht.  Under one of Archimedes rules,  if it is lighter than water, it floats and it displaces an amount of water equal exactly to its own weight. 
             As boat displacement/length ratio approaches 70,  it can plane more easily,  especially if its hull form promotes planing.  With enough engine power,  many boats could plane under engine power.  But some of the older designs are not very prone to planing.  
            Some of the newer designs can sail kind of half way between planing and not planing.  My Elliott 5.9 is like that.  But upwind,  it is purely displacement sailing.   
 
Howard Green




Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 9:20:48 AM
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

David Mackintosh

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Sep 17, 2010, 7:45:08 PM9/17/10
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OH MY  being pedantic and quoting Archimedes Law is not going to do it here.

My Albacore and my National 12 both plane upwind and they are NOT lighter than air and my Firebird cat planes upwind and it too is not lighter than air - these are to anyone with an interest in sailing and sail boats - planing sailboats - many many modern sports keel boats will plane upwind.

99% of speedboats plane and they are not lighter than air.

Modern production Beneteau's are able to sail (and motor) faster than the 1.34x WL rule because when they have excess power available to drive them they don't dig a hole in the water like 'traditional' displacement boats do/did -  the boats that were around when the 1.34xWL length was first proposed.  A 461 and a 473 don't plane they are somewhere in between displacement and surfing and for sure they are not limited by displacement boat rules. Nor do they have D/WL ratios anywhere close to 70.

If you disagree do explain why i have sailed my 461 for five or six minutes at a time at 1.5 times the 1.34 x WL rule speed  This is a 461 in full cruising mode towing a big heavy dinghy and with a big three bladed fixed prop.  Yes it was a broad reach and yes we were sailing 'aggressively'  and i probably had a few hundred HP generated by the sails BUT we were trucking along at 10 knots with 12 knots maximums for minutes at a time.  BUT had this been me sailing my First 456 or my First 51 i know that all that would have happened would have been lots of wave making and little extra speed. These boat were true displacement hull forms  Your modern Beneteau the  Finot and Farr designed boats can and do exceed the theoretical maximum speed barrier as defined by the square root of 1.34 time the waterline length that is a fact you can disagree if you like but the facts don't support that position.

Regarding Archimedes Law - totally not useful here - the nicest thing i can say is Archimedes Law  is somewhat 'outdated'  a good basis to start but that is all it is.   Archimedes Law is far from the complete answer - doubly so with a boat sailing along  because Archimedes Law ONLY relates to STATIC bodies NOT bodies in MOTION.

Some reading for anyone really into this topic  Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing and Sail Performance both by Czeslaw A. Marchaj and do some serious studying of fluid dynamics too.

David Fletcher

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Sep 17, 2010, 8:01:22 PM9/17/10
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I don’t much about much, but in order for a boat to plane it must be able to travel faster than the bow wave. I believe under straight power our boats can not obtain that speed but from time to time surfing down a wave or with a gust of wind the boat can obtain a speed faster than the wave being created at the front of the hull, at that point it can start to climb up the wave and out of the hole to begin to plane on the back of hull. Up until it breaks the bow wave it is limited to the water length formula and in fact starts to sit lower in the water not higher. Just look at the back of the transom as you power up.

 

One of buds,  an engineer,  explained it to me that way.

 

Fletch

 

bobs...@aol.com

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Sep 17, 2010, 9:28:35 PM9/17/10
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FYI.....I had my Beneteau 35s5 over 10 knots on several occasions and exceeding 8 knots is common.

I've also seen this on the 345 and quite a few other boats, from J30's to even heavy classics like the Tartan 37, in heavy air of course.



Robert E. Brody

Guy

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Sep 17, 2010, 10:32:57 PM9/17/10
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HUll speed is not an absolute max, it is the point at which additional speed requires a bunch of extra power as the boar is traveling forward nad vertically up the bow wave.  Lifting 20,000lbsrequires a lot more power than moving it forward.  1.34 is no a "let's pick a number" but an actual physcical phenonenom measurement.
-------------------------------------------------
Captain Guy
New Smyrna Beach FL USA
386-689-5088
-------------------------------------------------
s/v Island Time (Beneteau 352#277)
AICW 845.5

Howard Green

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Sep 17, 2010, 11:04:33 PM9/17/10
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     It's not my intent to be pedantic by referring to Archimedes any more than you were when you were referring to the Marchaj book which, by the way I regard as one of the best works on sailing ever.  I was merely attempting to point out what is generally referred to as displacement.
     I did not say a boat has to be lighter than air to plane.  I said it has to have a displacement length ratio approaching 70.  However, I also said that in some off wind conditions heavier boats could achieve planing like results for some periods of time. 
     Most of the boats you mentioned have displacement length ratios even lower than 70 and so they can plane in the kinds of conditions you named. 
      In contrast, a Beneteau 473 weighs 24000 lbs. plus and has a much higher ratio, so it would take unusual conditions that would permit it to plane. 
      With respect to the wonderful performance you describe for your boat,  I think it could be achieved for several reasons:
                  1.  It's a Farr designed hull.  If anyone knows how to shape a hull for that kind of performance,  it's Bruce.
                  2.  For your boat, I am using a water line length of 43 because I think the stern overhang is in the water when going downwind in a blow.  That gave me a calculated hull speed by the old formula of 8.79. 
                   3. For the disp/length ratio calculation,  I am using a weight of 21,000 lbs. Beneteau's site says the 461 is 20944.   That is, by the way very light for a cruising boat of that size, and it yields a displacement length ratio of 117.91.  A place to get the Displacement length formula is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement-Length_Ratio
                   So 117 is very light for a cruising boat. By way of example,  it is comparatively lighter than a J 35 and lighter than my 40.7.    So judging by other Farr designs I have sailed,  your boat could achieve the results you describe in conditions as follows.  Please forgive me if my method of explaining seems pedantic.
                   Waves with periods longer than the boat lwl will travel faster than the boat.  So let's assume a wave with a period of 86 feet.   That would be twice your water line length, and when your stern is on the top of that wave, your bow is completely on the downslope of the wave.  Using the old 1.34 formula,  the speed of that wave will be 12.42 knots. 
                    If you are on that wave at an angle,  then you have a little time for your boat to accelerate from hull speed up to the speed of the wave.  If you do it,  then you can effectively stay on the wave for a long time.   The waves don't have to be too tall to accomplish this, especially with a boat as light as yours. 
                     Down wind racing helmsmen find it works really well to head direct down the wave to accelerate.   Your downward motion on the wave overcomes your own relatively smaller bow wave, and gravity helps you accelerate.  But as the boat accelerates if you are going faster than the wave you can head up a little so you are taking the wave at an angle and  you don't overrun it. But not too high or...
                   It seems counter intuitive, but larger longer waves can be more difficult to accomplish this on for extended periods, because they are travelling faster and you can't catch up with them fast enough to stay with them.   Lighter boats can accelerate faster and have a better chance to stay on these waves.  
                   I hope this is useful to you.

Howard

Howard Green

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Sep 17, 2010, 11:21:35 PM9/17/10
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This is absolutely true.  At "hull speed" the period of the bow wave is the water line length of the boat.  The stern sits on the next crest.  To go faster, you make a longer wave and the stern is actually down, so you have to sail up and over your own wave. 
 
Howard Green




From: David Fletcher <davidcf...@rogers.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 2:01:22 PM
Subject: RE: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

        I am here in Hawaii , where we regularly experience seas of 8 to 12 feet and our every day wind is 18 to 20 knots.  All systems get tested every day to the max.  My experience is that the manufacturers try to do a good job and often do, but sometimes don't.  So I don't take things to the limit because I don't want something to break when it wouldn't have if I were a little more moderate in my use.  I guess if you could take it to the limit in protected waters where you could run it for a while to find out what if anything breaks,  then you could have more confidence in the ocean. 

 

Howard Green

 

 

[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] Yerine Oasis 473 Huntington , NY


Tarih: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:31 AM
Kime: Beneteau Owners
Konu: Re: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine
and a clean bottom

I saw where James responded and he indicated SOG (speed over ground)
which would vary quite a bit depending on the tides. I was  referring
to my boats speedometer on a slack tide. I don't know the size of my
max prop so that could be a factor, and I do not know my SOG at slack
tide but I felt I was not getting much more than 7 knots on the
speedometer at 2800-2900 RPM and I doubt that I have ever gotten 9
knots even at full power. Also James I have had my boat four years now
I never cruise above 3,000 RPM although I understand the full power
less 10% formula or around 3,400 RPM is acceptable operating RPM,

I do know that from sailing from Huntington , NY to St Thomas , BVI the


fuel consumption is extremely important and at 2,800 .RPM it seems to
me that when I have to motor that I am getting the best fuel
consumption as it relates to the knots I am getting.

On Sep 15, 11:14 am, "Kidd, James" <jk...@kaydon.com> wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> ...Evening sarcasm while having a beer with friends..we were all speaking of
>sailing last wknd hitting 11kts at times...
> I have done quite a bit of motoring this summer (my first year with this
>473)..with no help from currents, I can consistently do 9+ at 3300 RPM (allowing
>me to make dinner reservations on time) etc.......(And..equaling the speed of

>many of the Trawlers in Sag Harbor )..which makes me love this boat!

> Huntington , NY

Greg Arnold

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Sep 17, 2010, 11:57:21 PM9/17/10
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It seems to me that the hull speed can vary for different displacement boats of the same length.  Lighter boats will create less of a bow wave, and so can travel further up their own wave.  That means more speed.  However, they still are a displacement boat.

Howard Green

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Sep 18, 2010, 1:47:29 AM9/18/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
            Yes, you are right.   Hull speed is still the same. But the lighter the boat, the easier it is to overcome it and plane or semi plane.  I don't want to seem like a broken record, but if you want to understand this relationship you have to learn about displacement length ratio. I think you will find it entirely useful.  I wrote a little about it to our friend with the 461. 


 Howard Green




From: Greg Arnold <soa...@gmail.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 5:57:21 PM

Greg Arnold

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Sep 18, 2010, 2:15:27 AM9/18/10
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A lighter boat has a higher hull speed because it can travel further up its (smaller) bow wave, and in the process of getting further up on that wave it will go faster.  The traditional 1.34 figure is not written in stone -- it is an approximation that was based on the heavy boats of several decades ago. 

Planing and semi planing has nothing to do with it -- at normal sailing speeds, the lighter boat still is displacing its weight in water.  Of course, a lighter boat has a better chance of planing in the right conditions, but that is another issue.  If a boat is planing, that just means that it is displacing less water -- the same result you get from making the boat lighter.  Why would you get more speed if displacement goes down due to planing, but not if displacement goes down due to less weight in the boat?

David Mackintosh

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Sep 18, 2010, 7:15:53 AM9/18/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Without getting into pedantics or parading my expertise here i was asking a rhetorical question - playing devils advocate - I think i understand what is going on even though it is what i consider a somewhat unexplored misunderstood area.

However you did say "Unless a yacht is lighter than air, it is a displacement yacht." :-(

I would say the Aalbacore and N12  (both dinghies) and the Firebird allegedly the fastest production yacht around - plane.

I don't think a Pogo 2 planes but lets not debate that.

And i don't think an O461 or O473 plane.  Yes i agree unlike the 473 which to me looks like a 50 foot design that Beneteau decided to shorten leaving its transom in the water or in most cases actually under it :-(  the 461 has sweet lines that increase the sailing length - just when you need them most.  But then it is a First 45F5 with a masthead rig and a few cabin and other modifications. 

Light ship she is not - i estimate displacement in cruising trim to be around 24,500 we have around 1000 ltrs of tankage plus all the necessary cruising paraphernalia big anchors and lots of chain as i am sure you know all of this quickly gets silly - weight wise.  Luckily - though it does not seem like it when we are packing to go to the boat AA have silly weight limits for our hold baggage or things would be a lot worse.

Been sailing for 50 plus years and owner a series of Bennies inc F42 and  F456  both boats that could not dig themselves out of the displacement hull hole that they created when they were over driven.

There seems to be an area of performance between operating in a displacement mode and planing  I would call this surfing and i don't mean surfing down a wave.  This surfing is what i 'think' a Pogo and similar style boats do .  Yes you can use gravity to surf down a wave but i am talking about a stable condition that appears to exist for minutes or longer at a time while you have obviously ooodles of excess HP from your sails - rather than digging a bigger hole in the water the boat experiences dynamic lift and off it goes.  Unlike a planning condition you cant back off that HP and stay in the same planning mode when you run out of HP you stop surfing and drop into displacement mode immediately.

The passage i was talking about - which was exceptional - everything lined up in a lovely way - was an hour and a bit of extreme fun.  We were running along the waves and swell at a nice angle so there was some gravity assistance involved at times - however we were sailing up the swell/waves as much as we were sailing down them I am assuming the 12.3 knots was a gravity assisted push BUT like i said i was far too busy keeping the boat flying not wanting to let her drop into displacement mode which is typically a max of just under 9 knots to know if it was - it could quite have easily been just a nice 25 knot gust at the right time. 

Also i still say the dinghy and the prop are worth at least another two knots and while i would love to have the dinghy out of the water it is really too big and too heavy for that notwithstanding that it would look horrible and depress the stern of the boat significantly.  As to the prop as we as are both retired now :-) and about to become long term cruisers i am torn between a Kiwi Prop and a shaft driven alternator as we are at last loading Highland Fling up with goodies mostly of the power hungry kind :-(  Having had MaxProps on previous boats they are great sailing props but not in my estimation great props for motoring and a real PITA to get the pitch spot on.

What i am trying to get across and seemingly failing to do is that i know for a fact that the F456 would have not done this (and this was a very very special one off F456 built by Beneteau to win the Admirals Cup a very special hull lay up special keel rudder and mast Nomex everywhere and canvas doors to the cabins she even had a coffee grinder to the winches) BUT the 461 did and does - the 456 was 'limited' by the DLR the 461 does seem to be able quite easily to burst/slip though this so called wall i am sure this is a result of clever design - racing boat experience and obviously lighter displacement (as well as productionised construction methodology much cheaper to build so it is a win win situation for both us the buyers and Beneteau the manufacturer) has a part to play as well.

So while like Archimedes Principal/Theory/Law is a base line for stationary bodies  DLR is now not a barrier to a modern cruising boats performance when clever designers Like Finot and Farr get involved.

Which is where we came in  - how fast will a xxx go with xxx prop and xxx HP :-)

regards

David

Ivars

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Sep 18, 2010, 8:50:14 AM9/18/10
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Hull speed ( as a calculated value ) is relevant only in strict displacement mode, and has nothing to do with the speed potential of a boat.  It's more about the mode that a boat is in as it travels in the water. than the actual weight and water line length.    In displacement mode a boat travels THROUGH the water, while in planing mode it travels ON TOP of the water.   Weight and hull shape determine the point at which a boat can transition onto a plane, while some will never.   Maximum boat speed in displacement mode can be calculated and is a finite number.   Newer boat designs allow a boat to move into a "transitional mode"  where the boat attemps to get out of dispacement mode as it's speed increases allowing for indicated speeds greater than "hull speed values".   Surfing is a hybrid condition where the boat speed is enhanced by "sliding down hill" as it attemps to transition out of displacment mode.  In today's designs the term "hull speed" is a meaningless value since most cuurent designs allow a boat to escape from displacement mode.

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Arnold
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 2:15 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom
A lighter boat has a higher hull speed because it can travel further up its (smaller) bow wave, and in the process of getting further up on that wave it will go faster.  The traditional 1.34 figure is not written in stone -- it is an approximation that was based on the heavy boats of several decades ago. 

Planing and semi planing has nothing to do with it -- at normal sailing speeds, the lighter boat still is displacing its weight in water.  Of course, a lighter boat has a better chance of planing in the right conditions, but that is another issue.  If a boat is planing, that just means that it is displacing less water -- the same result you get from making the boat lighter.  Why would you get more speed if displacement goes down due to planing, but not if displacement goes down due to less weight in the boat?



On 9/17/2010 10:47 PM, Howard Green wrote:
            Yes, you are right.   Hull speed is still the same. But the lighter the boat, the easier it is to overcome it and plane or semi plane.  I don't want to seem like a broken record, but if you want to understand this relationship you have to learn about displacement length ratio. I think you will find it entirely useful.  I wrote a little about it to our friend with the 461. 


 Howard Green


From: Greg Arnold <soa...@gmail.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 5:57:21 PM
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

It seems to me that the hull speed can vary for different displacement boats of the same length.  Lighter boats will create less of a bow wave, and so can travel further up their own wave.  That means more speed.  However, they still are a displacement boat.




On 9/17/2010 8:21 PM, Howard Green wrote:
This is absolutely true.  At "hull speed" the period of the bow wave is the water line length of the boat.  The stern sits on the next crest.  To go faster, you make a longer wave and the stern is actually down, so you have to sail up and over your own wave. 
 
Howard Green


From: David Fletcher <davidcf...@rogers.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 2:01:22 PM
Subject: RE: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

I don’t much about much, but in order for a boat to plane it must be able to travel faster than the bow wave. I believe under straight power our boats can not obtain that speed but from time to time surfing down a wave or with a gust of wind the boat can obtain a speed faster than the wave being created at the front of the hull, at that point it can start to climb up the wave and out of the hole to begin to plane on the back of hull. Up until it breaks the bow wave it is limited to the water length formula and in fact starts to sit lower in the water not higher. Just look at the back of the transom as you power up.

 

One of buds,  an engineer,  explained it to me that way.

 

Fletch



Ivars

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Sep 18, 2010, 9:09:16 AM9/18/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
on the lighter side...  when someone addresses hull speed over cocktails, it usually is someone trying to impress their knowledge about sail boats and usually is the first sign of little or no actual experience...  just listen and observe and you will start to chuckle ( internally)  

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivars
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 8:50 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

Hull speed ( as a calculated value ) is relevant only in strict displacement mode, and has nothing to do with the speed potential of a boat.  It's more about the mode that a boat is in as it travels in the water. than the actual weight and water line length.    In displacement mode a boat travels THROUGH the water, while in planing mode it travels ON TOP of the water.   Weight and hull shape determine the point at which a boat can transition onto a plane, while some will never.   Maximum boat speed in displacement mode can be calculated and is a finite number.   Newer boat designs allow a boat to move into a "transitional mode"  where the boat attemps to get out of dispacement mode as it's speed increases allowing for indicated speeds greater than "hull speed values" , as we all have observed on outboats.    Surfing is a hybrid condition where the boat speed is enhanced by "sliding down hill" as it attemps to transition out of displacment mode.  In today's designs the term "hull speed" is a meaningless value since most cuurent designs allow a boat to escape from displacement mode.

Howard Green

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Sep 18, 2010, 12:02:36 PM9/18/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
I apologize.  I should not have attempted to make a contribution. 
 
Howard Green




Sent: Sat, September 18, 2010 1:15:53 AM

David Mackintosh

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Sep 18, 2010, 2:03:44 PM9/18/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
An apology!!! why so - Howard - surely you are not that sensitive - we take what we can from here some things we ignore and some things we think WOW so that is how it works etc.  I personally thought your contribution was good useful and positive - well put mostly - even if i disagreed and took exception with some of what you wrote.

kindest regards

David

Michael Roper

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Sep 18, 2010, 8:50:05 PM9/18/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com

I think David”s response translates to            Till the next battle of the wits.

Jim Martin

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Sep 18, 2010, 11:08:32 PM9/18/10
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Well, it does look like DLM48 is back!

_ _

Jim Martin

Peachtree Laser, Inc.

404-352-2565

email: mailto:ptl...@bellsouth.net

website: peachtreelaser.com



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Howard Green

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Sep 18, 2010, 11:12:47 PM9/18/10
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          Well,  actually David was mostly wrong.  I just got tired of  arguing as opposed to discussing. 
          He may have been sailing 50 years.  I've been mostly racing for  more than 60 years.   His conclusions to me are reasonable observation, but not science and not accurate.   Who is correct in an argument is not determined by who shouts loudest, longest.
          More important, for younger less experienced people, I see some dangerous advice.  The point of this discussion started out to be, what is a good speed for a sailboat under power.  The prudent answer was and is, about 80 to 85% of hull speed.  There are many parts of an engine system from bolts, to transmission couplings, to stuffing box vibrations etc.  that can give way.   Pushing the systems too hard when you don't have to, may well mean that they fail when you really need them. 
          As far as the issue of exceeding hull speed when sailing off the wind,  this is not new. It's been going on in single hulled ocean boats since at least the time of the Cal 40 (1960"s),  and the Gary Mull and Bill Lee boats of the early and mid 70's, and the Farr 38, which was designed in 1978 and which I had for 25 years beginning in 1980.   Today there are countless ocean boats designed just for this kind of performance.  By way of example there is the Beneteau 40.7, which I have, an excellent design, but 15,300 pounds which can exceed hull speed in down wind surfing bursts and can exceed it by about 1.2 knots in heavy wind flat water spinnaker reaching conditions.  On the other hand there is the Farr 395, a boat that is nearly identical except about 3000 lbs. lighter that will semi plane or plane reaching off wind under white sails in 30 knots of wind. 
          In dingies it began with the Flying Dutchman and Jolly Boats and the 505 back in the fifties,  and as materials have gotten lighter and stronger,  there are now a ton of dingies like the I 14's,  that regularly plane and semi plane.   And there are also some ultra light ocean boats like the Mumm 30's and the Melges 24 and 32 that can plane in moderate conditions.   Almost all of these boats have displacement length ratioes of less than 70.     
          There are a number of design factors that contribute to the ability of a boat to plane or semi plane. But far and away the most important is that a boat is light compared to its water line length.  A  reasonably flat bottom and a bow that is at once sharp, but also has a lot of foward boyancy is important to keep you from burying the bow in the next wave.
          As I said before, if you want to learn, as opposed to arguing about these issues, the best way to start is to understand the displacement/length ratio and how it affects performance.  A good place to start is the US Sailing on line discussion of the issue. They even have a calculator that will calculate your displ/length ratio if you have your weight and lwl.   (Incidentally the displ/length ratio is the key element in the adjustment of boat handicaps for long down wind races like the Pacific Cup from San Francisco to Hawaii.) You can find this on the Pacific Cup web site and the Northern California PH web site.    
          But none of this, and I stress, NONE,  does away with the hull speed rule.  As quite a few have observed,  the newer boats can exceed hull speed more easily in some conditions. But it takes quite a bit more energy (and reduced drag)  to accomplish that. And managing that extra power can be dangerous.  When we are racing like that we only allow our best helmsmen to handle the boat. Further, the hull speed rule is applicable almost universally when a moderate displacement ocean racer/cruiser is operating under power although with enough power I think you could exceed hull speed by a little for a while. 
           So this is all I am going to say on the subject. 
           Incidentally, it was rewarding to hear that everyone's contributions to the discussion of roundups, helped one of our members have a more enjoyable and safer day on Lake Champlain.
         
Howard Green




From: Michael Roper <mgr...@tpg.com.au>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, September 18, 2010 2:50:05 PM
Subject: RE: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76hp engine and a clean bottom

ca...@aol.com

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Sep 19, 2010, 5:22:44 PM9/19/10
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Absolutely excellent, Howard! Thanks for this consice clear and non-pedantic overview. Knowing 1.34 x waterline sqrt is essential when figuring out loadings. If I am making 9 knots, everything is highly loaded and it's time to reef/throttle back before something breaks. Tough to do when a huge smile is plastered on your mug, though. I never thought of the problem in quite the same way that you defined, and I thank you for improving my level of understanding.
 
As far as how many angeles dance the Highland Fling on the head of a pin, lets leave that up to Bishop Usher (of Scotland) who actually attempted the calculation, but failed. He did establsh our earth's creation at 9:00 AM on Oct. 23, 4004 BC, though.
 
Cap in Appreciation

Howard Green

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Sep 19, 2010, 5:43:40 PM9/19/10
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Amen.  What I would like to know is whether the Lord established the hull speed rule before or after he created the Earth.  Maybe we could ask the Bishop.  By the way,  was that 9.a.m. in Scotland? 
Howard Green




From: "ca...@aol.com" <ca...@aol.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 11:22:44 AM

Littlewing

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Sep 19, 2010, 7:21:28 PM9/19/10
to Beneteau Owners
Hi,
I finally found my ID and password to quote on the list though I
still read a digest everyday but I am VERY busy with my new job during
the week and VERY busy during weekend sailing Little Wing in Corsica
where I am based now.

So David the scottish fighter is still the same "Braveheart" !! And
Mark Melvin is there and "Ed" too" and "Milner" of course.

Gosh doeing 12 knots with 461 is nothing impressive !

With the right conditions any even old IOR design as brave old Little
Wing can do that with 50 % ballast ratio at occasionnal "bursts" of
speed.

What I am impressed with is the discovery bu my fellow american
friends that mini transats are fabulous boats, what about more than 10
knots average on 24 hours !

Amitiés and best souvenirs to everybody on the list (sorry I lose my
english and get no corsican language ..)

By teh way my wife is pushing hard for the new First 30 designed by
Juan K, 32 feet in fact. Well, with an electric winch for the main ...

Jean

Bob at Gmail

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Sep 19, 2010, 7:43:41 PM9/19/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Welcome back Jean!
We all missed you and your adventures.

Bob
S/V Our Dream
'97 Beneteau Oceanis 351 #195
Slip C-17, Castle Harbor Marina
Chester River Kent Island
Chester, MD
_/)__/)__/)_

Mark J Wilme.

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Sep 19, 2010, 7:46:35 PM9/19/10
to Beneteau Owners
Welcome back Jean :)
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Littlewing <Littl...@first30.fr>
Sender: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:21:28
To: Beneteau Owners<benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76
hp engine and a clean bottom

Bill Jarvis

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Sep 19, 2010, 9:23:25 PM9/19/10
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Great to have you back on the list Jean.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Littlewing
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and
76 hp engine and a clean bottom

Jean

--

James Martin

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Sep 19, 2010, 10:07:30 PM9/19/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Now here's past voice that is most welcome! Great to hear from you!

Jim

Sent from Jim Martin's iPhone

Noble, Milner E.

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Sep 20, 2010, 8:39:32 AM9/20/10
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Bonjour, Jean!
--Milner

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Littlewing
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: Re: YNT: {Beneteau Owners} 473 speed with a 3 blade maxi prop and 76 hp engine and a clean bottom

Jean

--

Daryl Davies

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Sep 20, 2010, 10:17:53 AM9/20/10
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Sure you should have -- varied inputs keep the list interesting. 

Ever read the sailing anarchy posts?  Those can get ugly and very negative at times.  I haven't seen that type of negative posts on this list. 

Daryl

At 09:02 AM 9/18/2010, you wrote:
I apologize.  I should not have attempted to make a contribution. 
 
Howard Green





Howard
                  
From: David Mackintosh < sv.highl...@gmail.com>
regards

David





 
Howard Green





regards

David

Or not ?

From: David Mackintosh < sv.highl...@gmail.com>
Sender: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Howard Green





regards

David

cost.



Howard Green




----- Original Message ----
From: Taner HALACOGLU <thala...@tesltd.com.tr >
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
achieve this result.

-----Özgün İleti-----
Kimden: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Kime: Beneteau Owners
and a clean bottom

> Hi Larry,
>
> James,
>
>
> Larry
> s/v TraSea
> Beneteau 473 #25
>
>
> From: Kidd, James <jk...@kaydon.com>
>
>
> Larry
> s/v TraSea
> Beneteau 473 #25
>
>
> From: Oasis473 <oasis...@gmail.com>
>and a clean bottom
> To: "Beneteau Owners" < benetea...@googlegroups.com>
>
>
>
> Jack
> Oasis473
> Huntington, NY
>
> --
>
> --
>athttp:// groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
> contact denny.werthei...@gmail.com , or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list
>management question
> --
> Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
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>athttp:// groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
> contact denny.werthei...@gmail.com , or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list
>management question
>
> --
> Largest Beneteau group, over **900** members and growing.
> Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this
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>management question

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Guy

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Sep 20, 2010, 3:11:06 PM9/20/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Awww Howie... did some old guy hurt your feelings?
 
Make all the contributions you wish; we love them all. 
-------------------------------------------------
Captain Guy
New Smyrna Beach FL USA
386-689-5088
-------------------------------------------------
s/v Island Time (Beneteau 352#277)
AICW 845.5

ca...@aol.com

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Sep 20, 2010, 8:35:02 PM9/20/10
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Yep ... GMT Zulu time! Sorry, you can't ask Bishop James usher who died in about 1760.

I have learned a bunch in this thread and really appreciate your comments.
 
Am also looking forward to more info on the SSB thread.
 
Cap in MD

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