Boat Speed
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B331
Sep 9, 2011, 1:12:04 PM9/9/11
to Beneteau Owners
How much faster is a 40 foot boat versus a 34 foot boat. I know the
sqaure root water length rule, but that doesn't seem to be the whole
story?
Regards,
Bob
sqaure root water length rule, but that doesn't seem to be the whole
story?
Regards,
Bob
davidcf...@rogers.com
Sep 9, 2011, 1:16:16 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
They all sail well when they are sailed well
About .80 to 1 knot all things equal
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
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About .80 to 1 knot all things equal
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
Largest Beneteau group, over **983** members and growing.
Read these list rules in the groups pages, cut and paste this link
http://groups.google.com/group/beneteau-owners/web/LIST+RULES?hl=en
To post to this group, send email to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Beneteau-Owne...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners
contact denny.we...@gmail.com, or ume...@comcast.net if you have a list management question
dean forbis
Sep 9, 2011, 1:33:42 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Depends on the sails. Who made them and how much did you pay for them ? Cross cut dacron or tri-radial laminate?
Fixed blade or folding prop?
And most importantly, what kind of teak treatment do you use...
Have a great weekend all. The Fall Series starts in Charleston Harbor tomorrow !!
Dean
bruce dunham
Sep 9, 2011, 1:48:04 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Not to mention bottom paint and how much rum on board...
|
bobs...@aol.com
Sep 9, 2011, 2:06:42 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Relative speed at hull speed will be determined by waterline length. More waterline length increases speed for displacement hulls, but we're not talking about efficiency, which is effected by weight, hull form factor and sail-area to displacement ratios.
A smaller boat can have more waterline length than a larger one depending on the design. Newer designs tend to have the most waterline possible.
A beneteau 343 has a waterline length of 29.5 vs. 35.1 of the 393. Hull speed of the 343 is 7.28 vs. 7.94 for the 393. While this does not seem like a large difference it does add up to a lot of extra miles covered over longer sailing times.
Cheers,
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: dean forbis <echor...@gmail.com>
To: beneteau-owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 9, 2011 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Boat Speed
From: dean forbis <echor...@gmail.com>
To: beneteau-owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 9, 2011 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Boat Speed
Ivars
Sep 9, 2011, 2:57:37 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Correct there is more to the story... Hull speed is a meaning less term
when comparing recent designs. I have two boats with almost the same
waterline length and sail area. Sailing up wind there can be a 15%
differential, while sailing off wind there can be over 300% difference in
speed. One boat stays in displacement mode, while the other will plane (
most we've recorded is 26+ knots )... Our best average speed has been 23.2
knots for a distance of 40 miles.
when comparing recent designs. I have two boats with almost the same
waterline length and sail area. Sailing up wind there can be a 15%
differential, while sailing off wind there can be over 300% difference in
speed. One boat stays in displacement mode, while the other will plane (
most we've recorded is 26+ knots )... Our best average speed has been 23.2
knots for a distance of 40 miles.
Wind, boat loading, design, sail area, sailing angles etc play into what a
boat "can do". One should not get stuck on the "hull speed"
conundrum...don't ever bring it up in any discussion... The only ones that
bring up the subject are trying to impress while know very little about what
they are talking about... My immdediate reaction is run... leave the
discussion as rapidly as possible, as it goes no where. Yes, waterline
length matters...after that the discussion is meaninless... Yes there always
will be a faster boat around the corner
-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of B331
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 1:12 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Boat Speed
Regards,
Bob
--
David Mackintosh
Sep 9, 2011, 4:50:51 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Just because you have a sail boat does not make you a sailor any more that walking into a church makes you a Christian!!!
I have sailed on a fair number of Bennies over the years and my First 35 was faster than my First 38.....probably not for long distance cruising though.
I recently sailed an O 423 and it was FAST.....i would have said as fast as my O 461 but that was just a feeling - it felt fast - not that i checked log calibration or GPS speeds.
However just back from a 6 month cruise in the Caribbean and 95% of the time we were sailing in company with other boats of similar sizes 45 ish feet though one was a 55 foot Taiwanese ketch - we walked past him like he was anchored and another was a 54 foot Amel SM2000 which went too fast for the owner!!!!
On the crossing from the BVI's to St Martin 110 miles sailed with an O 440 from Canada and a Taiwanese 'something' 45 from Maine - we all left together and we were in an hour before the two other boats - AND for the last two hours we had reduced our SOG to 4 knots - pre the passage we all agreed on maintaining 5 knots SOG After that and after a months sailing in company pre that crossing the 0 440 left an hour before us on daily passages of 40/50/60/80 miles as we were too fast for them. We sailed in company with these two boat for another two months until they went on to Trinidad for the summer - we turned round at Martinique and returned to St Thomas - we were always first into the anchorage except once when it was a 20 mile trip and we passed one boat the O 440 but failed to catch the other by less that half of a mile - both left 50 minutes before we did.
Coming back from St Martin to the BVI's we were in company with an Amel 54, Doufour 44, Oyster 395 Lightwave and two Contest 43's We all departed together at 18:00 from Marigot Bay. We got into North Sound Vrgin Gorda at 04:00 after 80 odd miles sailed in 18 knots app with a fair one to two knots equatorial current The Admiral (truly a novice sailor) took a four hour watch while i slept - Matilda did all the driving until we entered NSVG. The other boats arrived much later than us a few at 08:00 and some even at 09:00. The Amel slowed down two hours out from St Martin :-( and took reefs in all three sails as it was going tooooooo fast!!!
So can i say its never all about WL SA or DISP and ratios of one to the other when out cruising. Its about how well you drive the boat and how hard you drive it. We enjoy sailing but like to get there ASAP doubly so on a long inter island passage.
To try to reduce passage times by getting a faster boat I have sailed on many of the cruising cats 'Condomarans' none of them have managed to get past 10 knots apart from a Catana 471 which i managed to get to 25 knots on a demo sail - the broker was so twitched he kept letting the Genoa sheet out :-( On another i was impressed with 15 knots until i switched on my Hand Held GPS and discovered that the log was seriously out of calibration. It was out by more than 50% and this was on a boat that had just been sailed over from South Africa :-(
So forget WL DIS SA etc just tweak your log to get a faster boat ;-)
regards
David
I have sailed on a fair number of Bennies over the years and my First 35 was faster than my First 38.....probably not for long distance cruising though.
I recently sailed an O 423 and it was FAST.....i would have said as fast as my O 461 but that was just a feeling - it felt fast - not that i checked log calibration or GPS speeds.
However just back from a 6 month cruise in the Caribbean and 95% of the time we were sailing in company with other boats of similar sizes 45 ish feet though one was a 55 foot Taiwanese ketch - we walked past him like he was anchored and another was a 54 foot Amel SM2000 which went too fast for the owner!!!!
On the crossing from the BVI's to St Martin 110 miles sailed with an O 440 from Canada and a Taiwanese 'something' 45 from Maine - we all left together and we were in an hour before the two other boats - AND for the last two hours we had reduced our SOG to 4 knots - pre the passage we all agreed on maintaining 5 knots SOG After that and after a months sailing in company pre that crossing the 0 440 left an hour before us on daily passages of 40/50/60/80 miles as we were too fast for them. We sailed in company with these two boat for another two months until they went on to Trinidad for the summer - we turned round at Martinique and returned to St Thomas - we were always first into the anchorage except once when it was a 20 mile trip and we passed one boat the O 440 but failed to catch the other by less that half of a mile - both left 50 minutes before we did.
Coming back from St Martin to the BVI's we were in company with an Amel 54, Doufour 44, Oyster 395 Lightwave and two Contest 43's We all departed together at 18:00 from Marigot Bay. We got into North Sound Vrgin Gorda at 04:00 after 80 odd miles sailed in 18 knots app with a fair one to two knots equatorial current The Admiral (truly a novice sailor) took a four hour watch while i slept - Matilda did all the driving until we entered NSVG. The other boats arrived much later than us a few at 08:00 and some even at 09:00. The Amel slowed down two hours out from St Martin :-( and took reefs in all three sails as it was going tooooooo fast!!!
So can i say its never all about WL SA or DISP and ratios of one to the other when out cruising. Its about how well you drive the boat and how hard you drive it. We enjoy sailing but like to get there ASAP doubly so on a long inter island passage.
To try to reduce passage times by getting a faster boat I have sailed on many of the cruising cats 'Condomarans' none of them have managed to get past 10 knots apart from a Catana 471 which i managed to get to 25 knots on a demo sail - the broker was so twitched he kept letting the Genoa sheet out :-( On another i was impressed with 15 knots until i switched on my Hand Held GPS and discovered that the log was seriously out of calibration. It was out by more than 50% and this was on a boat that had just been sailed over from South Africa :-(
So forget WL DIS SA etc just tweak your log to get a faster boat ;-)
regards
David
davidcf...@rogers.com
Sep 9, 2011, 6:15:34 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
From your comments, one would think an OC400 would be too small to hang with you guys. My wife says no more WL of us, not sure if I need more.
David, The OC440 is nearly the same boat as yours, is it the rf main, the boat, the sails or the sailor? Your boat and the 440 should be similar!
Fletch
David, The OC440 is nearly the same boat as yours, is it the rf main, the boat, the sails or the sailor? Your boat and the 440 should be similar!
Fletch
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
From: David Mackintosh <sv.highl...@gmail.com>
Sender: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 21:50:51 +0100
ReplyTo: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Boat Speed
David Mackintosh
Sep 9, 2011, 7:57:32 PM9/9/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
Well it was a combination a roller main not a bad thing really as we were mostly on a fetch or a reach BUT a very bad 100% jib which would not sheet properly then TWO TONS of gear stored around the mast (i exaggerate a little) BUT you should have seen this boat roll in the swell when it was less than 100 feet away from us - we were quite comfortable and they were almost getting the toe rails wet :-(. Then there was the owner not really as 'keen' a sailor as me in some ways through he had done a transatlantic so i am sure he had more patience than me whereas maybe that is why i do like to keep Highland Fling flying. BUT he had a Max Prop and Davits and a small RIB on the Davits so he had considerably less parasitic drag as we tow a BIG RIB and have a BIG fixed bladed prop.
He also had the 80HP turbo engine and boy could that boat motor.
I was working on a L42 cat (captain crew chief engineer mr fixit dive buddy cook and chief bottle washer etc) in the Caribbean (VI's) about 10 years ago and the lady owner said to me you cant keep trimming that sail all the way down the Caribbean to Bonair i said really - watch me.
BUT HEY get down to the VI;s with your OC400 and i promise to slow down and show you the best spots.
Hanging with us is rather strangely and a bit like sailing - its all about the skipper and crew :-)
way past my bed time now
regards
David
He also had the 80HP turbo engine and boy could that boat motor.
I was working on a L42 cat (captain crew chief engineer mr fixit dive buddy cook and chief bottle washer etc) in the Caribbean (VI's) about 10 years ago and the lady owner said to me you cant keep trimming that sail all the way down the Caribbean to Bonair i said really - watch me.
BUT HEY get down to the VI;s with your OC400 and i promise to slow down and show you the best spots.
Hanging with us is rather strangely and a bit like sailing - its all about the skipper and crew :-)
way past my bed time now
regards
David
nealalex235
Sep 9, 2011, 9:45:21 PM9/9/11
to Beneteau Owners
A set of polars help determine speed estimates for a particular hull
I've run a bit past my polars - 10 percent - and theoretical speed
on a good day (gps)
Dont forget pointing ability - your first series Bs will point much
higher than cruisers,which helps in velocity made good
Also ditto the comment - depends on how much rum on board. Stolen
boats generally go faster than others .....
I've run a bit past my polars - 10 percent - and theoretical speed
on a good day (gps)
Dont forget pointing ability - your first series Bs will point much
higher than cruisers,which helps in velocity made good
Also ditto the comment - depends on how much rum on board. Stolen
boats generally go faster than others .....
David Mackintosh
Sep 10, 2011, 4:21:29 AM9/10/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
I wrote
"you should have seen this boat roll in the swell when it was less than 100 feet away from us - we were quite comfortable and they were almost getting the toe rails wet :-(."
just to avoid confusion this was at anchor!!!!
Re boat speeds we sailed in company on the Scottish West Coast the inner and outer Hebrides on our summer three week cruise for many many years. We had a F 35 and then a F38 though there was a Nauticat 38 and a F51 in there too for a wee while. One of the Group sailed a 27 foot Vega http://www.albinvega.co.uk/ and we occasionally had a 21 foot Corribee http://freespace.virgin.net/patrick.fox/corribee/ sail with us. The main protagonists had 33/38 foot boats. Obviosly you cant 'sail in company' with a 27/21 foot boat when you are sailing a 35/40 foot Beneteau First not even when you have two young kids on board (ages in single figures) and a cat but we all 'generally' ended up in the same anchorage at the end of the day. Typically the smaller boats would depart first = though they had issues with heavy weather when we (the group) wanted to move on they at times were unable to. Sadly one of the bigger slower boats in the group a Moody 33 http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/archive_boat.php?boat_id=158 wanted a FASTER BOAT - and we all know bigger boats go faster. So they bought a 45 foot Jeanneau BIG Mistake this was too much boat for them (his wife was a non participating passenger so he was really single handed) so going sailing each weekend became difficult latterly impossible as they/he had great difficulty getting it in and out of its marina berth and the less he did that the bigger the problem became.
Down in the Caribbean there is a Beneteau Oceanis 440 that has been heavily tweaked for racing - i believe it was almost unbeatable!!!! :-) June 1, 2007: Three Harkoms, Christopher Lloyd's modified Beneteau Oceanis 440, dominated the Performance Cruising class in the Caribbean. Six major regattas, twenty-six races, twenty firsts, two seconds, two thirds. This from a boat that spent twelve years in bareboat charter and still has three full staterooms, three heads with hot showers and ice cream in the freezer; a new rig, new keel, new Doyle sails. Winner of the Caribbean Sailing Association Traveller's Cup in 2006 with a strong lead for 2007 with just the Mount Gay Boatyard Regatta in Barbados to go.
Modified Beneteau Oceanis 440 as part of her modification program, Three Harkoms received a taller stick, a Farr 40-like cockpit and a new keel; the investments paid dividends http://bymnews.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=550&pos=68 as Three Harkoms has enjoyed a winsome racing history in the Caribbean, including knockout performances at the last two editions of the BVI Spring Regatta and Sailing Festival.
Why they did not just buy a F45f5 is a bit of a mystery to me - but then a beat up ex charter 440 might have been very very cheap = and after purchasing it maybe they just wanted a faster boat :-)
regards
David
"you should have seen this boat roll in the swell when it was less than 100 feet away from us - we were quite comfortable and they were almost getting the toe rails wet :-(."
Re boat speeds we sailed in company on the Scottish West Coast the inner and outer Hebrides on our summer three week cruise for many many years. We had a F 35 and then a F38 though there was a Nauticat 38 and a F51 in there too for a wee while. One of the Group sailed a 27 foot Vega http://www.albinvega.co.uk/ and we occasionally had a 21 foot Corribee http://freespace.virgin.net/patrick.fox/corribee/ sail with us. The main protagonists had 33/38 foot boats. Obviosly you cant 'sail in company' with a 27/21 foot boat when you are sailing a 35/40 foot Beneteau First not even when you have two young kids on board (ages in single figures) and a cat but we all 'generally' ended up in the same anchorage at the end of the day. Typically the smaller boats would depart first = though they had issues with heavy weather when we (the group) wanted to move on they at times were unable to. Sadly one of the bigger slower boats in the group a Moody 33 http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/archive_boat.php?boat_id=158 wanted a FASTER BOAT - and we all know bigger boats go faster. So they bought a 45 foot Jeanneau BIG Mistake this was too much boat for them (his wife was a non participating passenger so he was really single handed) so going sailing each weekend became difficult latterly impossible as they/he had great difficulty getting it in and out of its marina berth and the less he did that the bigger the problem became.
Down in the Caribbean there is a Beneteau Oceanis 440 that has been heavily tweaked for racing - i believe it was almost unbeatable!!!! :-) June 1, 2007: Three Harkoms, Christopher Lloyd's modified Beneteau Oceanis 440, dominated the Performance Cruising class in the Caribbean. Six major regattas, twenty-six races, twenty firsts, two seconds, two thirds. This from a boat that spent twelve years in bareboat charter and still has three full staterooms, three heads with hot showers and ice cream in the freezer; a new rig, new keel, new Doyle sails. Winner of the Caribbean Sailing Association Traveller's Cup in 2006 with a strong lead for 2007 with just the Mount Gay Boatyard Regatta in Barbados to go.
Modified Beneteau Oceanis 440 as part of her modification program, Three Harkoms received a taller stick, a Farr 40-like cockpit and a new keel; the investments paid dividends http://bymnews.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=550&pos=68 as Three Harkoms has enjoyed a winsome racing history in the Caribbean, including knockout performances at the last two editions of the BVI Spring Regatta and Sailing Festival.
Why they did not just buy a F45f5 is a bit of a mystery to me - but then a beat up ex charter 440 might have been very very cheap = and after purchasing it maybe they just wanted a faster boat :-)
regards
David
bobs...@aol.com
Sep 10, 2011, 7:01:57 AM9/10/11
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
No room to sleep on a F45f5, David. Unless you're under 6 feet. Small bunks kill a lot of good hulls for tall sailors like me!
Rob
Why they did not just buy a F45f5 is a bit of a mystery to me - but then a beat up ex charter 440 might have been very very cheap = and after purchasing it maybe they just wanted a faster boat :-)
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