Perkins M50 Advice

[Fletch]

Christmas is over, I have to get down some serious planning for
spring. The boat is on the hard and I am planning a trip to the
Bahamas from Toronto this fall. Want everything possible looked at
before I leave.

My Perkins Prima 50 is running a little warm (1800 hrs) and I want to
go over the cooling system.

Members say to replace the connector to the elbow, the Perkins dealer
(TAD) says the elbow lasts about 4 to 6 years and is normally the
culprit. Mine is 10 years old. I want to do all of the work at one
time, have parts on hand first (Perkins parts are not easy to find in
canada).

My plan is to clean the heat exchanger and replace either the
connector or the elbow.

My question is should both be replaced as part of regular maintenance
or just the elbow or the connector.

With all of the Prima 50 out there does anybody have any good advice,
I am not against spending money however I do not want to spend what I
do not need to and reluctant to fix what is not broken.

Advice guys?

Fletch
Camp David.

[Bill Jarvis]

Fletch,

I guess the real question is where do you want to do your maintenance. Do
you like to plan ahead and do it on your schedule or do you like surprises?

Mixing elbows fail. When they do the exhaust gasses from the engine may be
discharged into the cabin. You would certainly not want that if you were
using the engine to hold the boat, on anchor, in a norther.

If you are in the Bahamas parts may be very difficult to obtain.

Perhaps you would rather replace in warm waters in the spring. If so you may
want to consider getting the parts before you leave.

If in doubt fix it now!

Bill

[Capt Brian]

Hey Fletch,

I plan to change my exhaust elbow in '08. Brianne is almost 13 years
old 4000 hrs on the engine, runnig cool as a cucumber. I agree with
Bill. At least have the part on the boat with tools and gaskets or
just change it and be confident you don't have to worry about that.

Capt Brian
Brianne

[DAVID FLETCHER]

Thanks, I am just not sure how far to go, I think good money spent ahead of
time will be the cheapest way to go however I am not sure where to start in
hunt to get the engine running at about 180 to 185 degrees.

I guess the htx, fresh water pump and the elbow are about the only things
that can effect the temperature, each one can be a little bit of the problem
adding up to 15 degrees.

I think 200 is above the norm!.

thanks

Fletch

[Capt Brian]

Fletch,

200 deg is not good. I will give you my diagnostic priorities.

Do you have good exhaust water flow out the exhaust pipe? That's the
first clue to a raw water problem.

If NO:
Have you changed the raw water impeller? If you use any gasket other
than the very thin one that comes with the new impeller you may have a
low output pressure problem at the pump. Replace pump plate gasket
with correct one. Start the engine. Is there better flow? Is the
temp lower?

No.
Pull the raw water hose off the back end of the Hx elbow, suck out the
little bit of water and look in the elbow to see if there are impeller
pieces stuck in the tubes or laying in the bottom of the elbow or in
the end of the hose. If you do, clean it out, reassemble, start the
engine. Is there better flow? Is the temp lower?

No.
Pull the raw water hose off the back end of the Hx elbow, suck out the
little bit of water. Lower the coolant level below the level on the
front of the Hx then pull off the front Hx elbow. (while you're at it
look into the Hx and see if the sleave is OK. I may be mushy and
deteriorated. That's not good.) Put a light at the back end of the
Hx and look into the stack from the front. If there are any
obstructions you can use a rod the clean the stack from the front end
then suck out the debris from the back elbow, reassemble, refill
coolant, start the engine. Is there better flow? Is the temp lower?

No.
Pull off the water injector from the exhaust elbow. (Mine was cast
metal). You can see some of the exhaust elbow. Inspect the injector
fitting and exhaust elbow. Do they look obstructed? Clean the
injector and whaterver part of the exhaust elbow you can see or just
replace the elbow. Reassemble, start the engine. Is there better
flow? Is the temp lower?

No.
Problem is likely to be on the coolant side of the engine in which
case you can change the thermostat (don't forget to bleed ou the
air). Reassemble, start the engine. Is the temp lower?

No.
Time to pull the stack and clean the Coolant side of the stack. Just
so you know, the tubes are encased in a large brass tube with a hole
at each end so it is very possible to have an obstruction there. From
here you follow the previous instructions on cleaning the Hx stack.
Be sure to change the sleave. It is crucial for the Hx to work
properly. Trust me.

I've been where you are now. I had to sail to St Martin from the BVI
because of my problems with the engine but all is good now.
Everything I explained above I did to trace my problem. I could
hardly believe it when it was on the coolant side but in the end my
entire system was checked and fixed. The only thing I haven't done
yet is to replace the exhaust elbow which I want to do this year.
Perky is almost 13 years old with 4000 hrs on him.

Good Luck and Happy New Year,
Capt Brian
Brianne




On Dec 29, 1:40 pm, "DAVID FLETCHER" <davidcfletc...@rogers.com>
wrote:

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[Larry Cohan]

Brian,

Your diagnostic analysis is so super that I would encourage you to copy
and paste it into a text file and then upload it to the list's web site
(http://groups.google.com/group/Beneteau-Owners?lnk=iggc) so that it
will be available in the future when someone asks about overheating
problems.

Thanks for taking the time to write it so beautifully.

Larry

P.S. If you need any help in converting it to a file and uploading it,
let me know.

[DAVID FLETCHER]

Thanks a Million, I changed the impeller and had the fresh water pump
rebuilt this summer, no change in temp so I will start at #2 and work my way
to the end.

Cheers and great 08

fletch

[Capt Brian]

Hey Larry,

Thanks for the Kudos. I really enjoy the group and helping out where
possible.

I have uploaded the file for the group and included the Hx cleaning as
part of it as well.

Happy New Year to the group
Capt Brian
Brianne

[Uwe Mewes]

Fletch,
I apologize if the question was already answered but how did you obtain the
temperature reading? Regular needle gauge? Digital? One of the test
instruments I carry is an infrared none contact thermometer. The OS562 from
Omega is a little over US$ 100,- but worth every penny. It does a great job
identifying hot spots any were (bad bearings).

Uwe Mewes
F305
Heaven Can Wait

[Rick Donovan]

"how did you obtain the temperature reading? an infrared none contact thermometer, "

I have been thinking about this same question while following along on the Hx discussion. 

on top of all the great replies already sent in on this subject, an accurate measurement should be part of the testing and I have always used the non contact thermometer as my base line each spring during our first run of any length under power just to verify where the actual engine temperature is when compared to the analog gauge at the instrument panel.

the analog instruments are often not reliable for an exact/accurate measurement and I feel that the indicated temp reading should be used as a reference over time, not necessarily as accurate readings until you can verify its accuracy. if for example, your engine had always run about 185 on the temp gauge and suspiciously moved higher during the season that would be reason to believe that you may be having a problem. 

On the other hand, if you had been out for your first run under power on a boat new to you and saw the temp reading at 200, I would want to be able to confirm that reading somehow before jumping to any conclusions. the non contact infrared thermometer is a great way to do that. 

see this link for one manufacturer as an example.

http://www.raytek.com/Raytek/en-r0/ProductsAndAccessories/PortableThermometers/PortableThermometersSeries/MiniTemp-AutomotiveHandheld/Default.htm

 I have both a contact probe style temp meter and a non contact style that I use for work, so I have access to both with the contact style being a calibrated unit. The non contact style is within a couple of degree's of the calibrated style unit, so I use the non contact for onboard testing because it is much quicker and safer to use with the engine running during testing. you don't need to be near the pulleys and belts to get an accurate reading anywhere on the engine. you just point and shoot then read the numbers. it is very quick and more than accurate enough for determining what is happening with your engine. I have found several other uses for it onboard including a refrigeration checks on the ice box while looking for heat loss, refrigeration unit drive motor temp and condenser unit lines temps, etc.

Rick Donovan

2002 Beneteau 473

Turn the Page

Falmouth, Maine

[DAVID FLETCHER]

I have invested in a hand held digital thermometer, I agree and planned to
check the engine in a number of spots to see if I can find a hot spot and to
confirm the operating temp. (In Canada Princess Auto has them for under
30.00) The engine ran for a year at 185 and then this last summer moved up
in temperature. Upon reflection I added an oil pressure gauge and a volt
meter to the same electrical feed as the fuel gauge ( before launch last
spring) , The temp gauge is feed off the instrument panel, so I am thinking
it should not be effected be the new gauges.

[max...@cox.net]

So okay, (here's my last stupid question for 2007) say I buy one of these; where on the engine would I point it to verify the temperature indication of my analog guage? I suppose your answer will be to point it at the temperature sensor area?

Bottom line is that I'm not sure that I know how to use it intelligently

Max Lynn

[DAVID FLETCHER]

Max:

I believe you want to know the temperature of the engine coolant as well as
the metal, I would think the best place is at the thermostat housing, this
is the hottest area ( I think), on my old engine I could follow the water
passage and see it drop a little as it went along. I am of the view that the
a number of places on the engine will give you an average temp.

Fletch
----- Original Message -----
From: <max...@cox.net>
To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "Rick Donovan" <richard....@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Perkins M50 Advice

>
>

[Max Lynn]

I agree with Larry - that's a well thought-out analysis.  Needs to be preserved for reference.

 

Max Lynn

[Michael]

My boat did not come with an engine manual. Anyone out there have an
electronic copy of the manuals for the Yanmar 3GM30F?

Thank-you, Michael

[Rick Donovan]

"where on the engine would I point it to verify the temperature indication of my analog gauge?"

Max, I think that you will find out that the temperature sensor for the analog gauge is on the thermostat housing. this is a normal location. they are usually rather obvious because of the fittings used to allow the sensor to screw into the lower/bottom portion of the housing somewhere, normally very close to the thermostat itself.

"I suppose your answer will be  to point it at the temperature sensor area?"

if you check the temp at other places than where the temp sensor is located, I would expect to get different readings for a whole host of reasons. in order to verify the accuracy of the analog gauge, you should check as close to the same location and material thickness as the sensor is mounted into. the analog sensor can't provide readings from any other location, right? But with a portable temp unit you can check anywhere you like. when checking additional locations, the key becomes being able to decipher what the temp is really telling you and whether it is worth worrying about during your trouble shooting.

"Bottom line is that I'm not sure that I know how to use it intelligently"

there is not much that you need to figure out. you simply aim/point the "gun" at the area you want to check, squeeze and hold the trigger and after a few seconds the temperature pops up on an led display. it is very very simple to use. there are several designs available and as usual the extras cost you more. for under $100 you can get a really good unit that has "a single dot laser" used for aiming the "gun" at what you want to check. Then of course, you can go to multi dot laser patterns that give a way to check temps at each dot and you get an average reading of all of the laser dots on the led display, the more lasers/dots the higher the cost of the unit. the multi dot laser is not needed for what we are talking about doing onboard so the cheaper unit should work fine for us. 

what you need to be aware of as you try to find a unit to purchase is the specs for each design, look at each brand closely for best accuracy and temperature range. the specs should be used to compare another brand or style. The Raytek line is very good in that regard, usually within +/- 3 degree's for accuracy and 400 - 500 degree's Fahrenheit on their lower end units. that should be all we would ever need onboard. 

I have been having really good luck with pricing from Amazon recently (no affiliation) and thought I would check to see if they offer any of the Raytek units and they do. a little more research online may find a better deal, but this is a great price from Amazon, better than what I paid several years ago.

If I were going to recommend one particular unit for the purpose of trouble shooting our boats, this is the one I would suggest to take a look at. see this link for the Raytek MT6 model.

http://www.amazon.com/Raytek-MT6-Mini-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B000O80B5M

I just read several of the reviews at this site and if those reviews are what you would use to make your decision to buy this unit or not, I would not be interested because of the bad "quality" reviews. However, that has not been my experience with my Raytek unit. This has been a great product for me. mine came with a hard plastic case and it gets hauled and bounced around in the tool box in the back of my truck going from job to job, it is left in the truck at all times so it has seen all extremes of temperatures from 100 degree's to as cold as 20 below with out any problems for me. Raytek is now owned by Fluke and maybe they have "outsourced" the Raytek brand since I purchased mine several years ago, I am not sure why the reported problems.

If the quality is causing doubts, Fluke makes a very similar unit called the Fluke 62 and as should be expected, it offers a couple of features not on the Raytek, slightly better accuracy and of course is more money to buy but the Fluke brand name and quality of their products is excellent. 

see this link,     http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-62-Mini-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B000MX5Y9C/ref=pd_sbs_auto_title_1

[Rick Donovan]

Fletch,

"I believe you want to know the temperature of the engine coolant as well as

the metal,"

Over a relatively short period of time, the metal will absorb the heat of the coolant and should be quite close to the same temperature as the coolant IF they are in close contact. all bets are off if they are not close, i.e. the thickness of the metal or the location of the coolant passages, etc. The readings could be way off from each other under those conditions.

Testing to determine the average water temp in procedure that you explained is fundamentally true for sure, but that is not what your analog sensor is using to determine the reading at the instrument panel. I would expect the sensor for that gauge to be mounted on the thermostat housing. that thermostat housing, particularly the lower side of the housing is where the hottest coolant should be when being checked in the fashion we are talking about. Thru the use of fittings, the sensor tube actually protrudes into the passing coolant, so if asked I would explain the temp readings at the analog gauge as actual "coolant temperature" at the thermostat. 

as the coolant circulates thru the casting of the cylinder heads and engine block the temps would vary for lots of reasons including the thickness and structure of the casting metal, its proximity to the actual coolant path, etc. Even paint on the block can mask the real temperature somewhat, so taking readings all along the engine can be tricky to decipher accurately.

A tip that might help down the road.

Whenever I test an object for temperature and need to be able to repeat that temperature test at a later time as accurately as possible, I place a small circle or mark with a Sharpie marker where I can see it easily. the mark is used for aiming the laser of my temp gun at exactly the same location. I have several of these marks on items onboard the boat including at the thermostat housing so that each time I test water temp it is in the exact same spot, no question as to human error in aiming the guns laser dot.

[Scott]

Yanmars do not come with full service manuals, you need to purchase a
service manual from your local yanmar distrib. No electronic copies
are available either. Would kill the revenue they get from making you
purchase I guess?! At least this was the case 2 years ago. But you
definitely should have one if you plan to go further than a few hours
away from the dock.

Scott

[max...@cox.net]

---- Rick Donovan <richard....@verizon.net> wrote:

>That's a really neat instrument for not a lot of money. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have bought that and skipped the add-on analog set-up that I bought from Volvo. My reference to not being intelligent enough to use it alluded to the fact that if I point it at some other spot on the engine other than the temp sensor area, I wouldn't know what temperature value to expect. I suppose I didn't think that through very well. What would probably be valuable about this instrument would be to do a map of the engine while it was operating normally so as to be able to recognize a problem when it appears. I've noted that on large diesels it's common to instrument the exhaust gas temps so as to protect and monitor exhaust valve and engine load performance. So one could probably check those sorts of things, particularly if a problem were observed.

Thanks for the URL; I'll consider investing in one of those - seems like an interesting tool.

Happy New Year!
Max Lynn
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[Force Majeure]

The non-contact temperature sensor is a great tool and has another
great use: Point the laser along the seams of your refrigerator/
freezer box. Any air leaks from the seals are immediately apparent as
a drop in temp. I used mine to solve my fridge sealing problems this
way. You can also point it at the evaporator plate to confirm the
system is reaching the proper temp.

Jeff

On Dec 31, 11:16 am, <maxl...@cox.net> wrote:

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