Raymarine rudder sensor installation on a Beneteau 343

[BigEasy]

I am planning to install a raymarine rudder sensor on my 343 to improve the function of the autopilot.

Any information regarding location of the sensor, rod, and rudder fitment would be most appreciated.  Also any special brackets needed for the install?

[Captain Guy]

IMHO ... not worth the effort unless you also have the hydraulic system, which is rare on 343.

 

Guy

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[jeff pernick]

Seems to me that having rudder feedback to the computer is almost mandatory.  Otherwise the computer has to wait for a sensed boat direction change to know it has moved the rudder and I would think performance would be quite poor.  There is no feedback from the linear drive.

[Captain Guy]

the controller always knows it has moved the rudder, since its in control.  Calibration and frequent re-cal will keep the A/P trained as to responses, And the angle of the rudder does affect the heading under all conditions (heel, puffs, etc.)  Yes, it may help to a minor degree to have rudder angle known, but my comment is about the relative benefit vs cost-complexity of installation.

 

Having sailed with basic A/P hundreds of mile in the gulf stream with 2-3 knots current, I never missed a beat.  Bigger problem is following seas and big waves, where the A/P often gets behind the curve, the angle of the rudder is not important, anticipation based upon visual cues (and other senses) is all that works, and no A/P can do that.

 

guy

[jeff pernick]

well...the controller knows it turned on the drive, in either forward or back direction, for a known period of time.  It does not directly know where the is rudder is or how it has moved.  It can only guess rudder position based on memory of various drive direction and time events and try to fine tune based on rate of turn info from whatever vessel direction sensing transducer is available.

Honestly, I've never sailed without a rudder feedback transducer so I do not know how good a job can be done by the computer without rudder feedback. 

I do know that I have sailed thousands of offshore miles in a variety of conditions (including following seas and big waves) and I have not yet seen the situation that can not be accommodated with a Raymarine autopilot, reasonable trim, and rudder feedback.  Captain Guy, maybe it is just the more difficult autopilot situations where the additional performance afforded by a position sensor is needed?

[BigEasy]

Well,  I have read many posts on various sites that the rudder sensor drastically improved the operation of the autopilot. 

The cost of the sensor is not a big issue for me; however, the installation is.  Today, I was able to get a few photos from other owners with a factory installed rudder sensor.  Looks like it will be a bear to install the thing.  I suspect that the factory drilled the steering quadrant and installed the unit before the cabin & cockpit was installed onto the hull.  If  it is going to be too difficult to install, I will abort the project and continue to do without a sensor.

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 7:07:20 PM UTC-6, BigEasy wrote:

[Captain Guy]

Define drastically... on a 34’ boat, the following seas and breakers will overpower a wheel driven A/P...

 

If however, you go with a serious hydraulic system, then it may be able to keep up with yawing and data from the rudder position may be useful.

 

I’ve had no problems with course holding, cross currents (across gulf stream) and various wx including 20-30 kts on aft quarter BUT, I have the wheel pilot and it ‘s little stepper motor just works hard in certain conditions.  The A/P knows how many turns it has put into the systems and in fact shows rudder angle based upon rotation of the stepper motor.  Hydraulic systmes may benefit.  Is that what you have?

 

Guy

 

From: BigEasy

Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 9:00 PM

To: Beneteau Owners

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[BigEasy]

Guy,

    I already have the rudder sensor and I believe that I have found a reasonable method of Installation.

    All I know is that my  4000 wheel pilot doesn't hold a reasonably accurate course; too much variation occurs.   After hearing of several individuals who have installed a sensor and noted improvement as well as the fact that Beneteau started installing a sensor in mid to later runs of the 343, I decided to give it a try.  Paid $100. for the sensor, so its not going to break the bank.  I also learned the A/P can be reprogrammed with set points called the "Catalina Cocktail" to improve the operation of the A/P; plan to give that a try also.

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 7:07:20 PM UTC-6, BigEasy wrote:

[Captain Guy]

The calibration process in the manual seems to work.  When I was a dealer, I installed dozens all wheel pilots (331, 352, 321) and all worked as expected.

 

But you gotta calibrate and don’t take short cuts.  When we go from Palm Beach to West End, I enter the waypoint and forget about it.  The boat stays on the track line even in 2-3 knots side current, the heading is 20-30 degrees off the course, and the wheel pilot never wavers.  A/Ps work one of two ways, maintain a course or  goto a waypoint.  The heading ( the direction of the bow) is not important, just the course made good.  However, in a cross current, you’ll need to manually go right or left to stay on the intended track.  When you push the AUTO button, it revcords the heading from the gyro/fluxgate compass and keeps that heading, which many not be where you want to go (see earlier about cross currents).

 

So much is going on, the rudder angle is not that useful, tho may help in calibrating.

 

Use common sense.  If you enter AUTO and the boat doesn’t maintain the heading (check your mag compass for changes, not actual).  Oh that reminds me, its is very difficult to calibrate deviation, and with working GPS and other toys, not important.  Variation is global, deviation is local.  Crew loves to put air horn in drink holder...BAM, 20 degree swing in compass.  With our modern toys (and suitable backups) just stay on the track line, even if hand steering.

 

We used to swing ship and have a deviation card posted at the helm.  HAH.  Coast Guard doesn’t do that any more even on cutters (at least the ones I’ve been on recently).

 

Anyway, have fun...CALIBRATE then turn everything off and do it again.

 

Guy

 

From: BigEasy

Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 10:26 AM

To: Beneteau Owners

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Raymarine rudder sensor installation on a Beneteau 343

 

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[Captain Guy]

One final note, be sure to read carefully the DEALER setup instructions in the manual... there is much info about the  rudder indicator and it’s purpose...mainly to help you know what angle the rudder is at when you engage or disengage the A/P.

 

eg. if you’re hard over and hit the A/P for a waypoint, you may get radical helm movement.

 

guy

 

From: BigEasy

Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 9:00 PM

To: Beneteau Owners

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Raymarine rudder sensor installation on a Beneteau 343

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[Captain Guy]

Still have question:  is your system a WHEEL Pilot (attached to the spokes) or a below decks hydraulic that disconnects the wheel when driving?

 

The rudder angle is to provide feedback as to rudder angle when you go from A/P to manual and the clutch engages the wheel.  See the manual.

 

guy

 

From: BigEasy

Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 9:00 PM

To: Beneteau Owners

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Raymarine rudder sensor installation on a Beneteau 343

 

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[BigEasy]

Guy,

    Thanks for all of the help & suggestions.  Will get the manual out this weekend and read thoroughly, including the dealer set up.  Will definitely recalibrate.  The A/P is a Raymarne ST4000 wheel pilot.

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 7:07:20 PM UTC-6, BigEasy wrote:

[Steve Mitchell]

I have a wheel pilot, ST 4000+ mk2, and just recently installed the EV1 Autopilot part to connect it into the rest of my new Raymarine setup.  It includes the ACU-100 and the EV1 compass/heading sensor.  How much more help would the rudder sensor provide?  I'm on a B311.  I had to replace it as the original control unit died and the motor in the ST 4000 was on it's last legs.  

[Captain Guy]

Wheel pilot? Not so much... hydraulic-clutch unit , a little bit when transition from AP to manual

 

Guy

[Steve Mitchell]

That's what I have heard elsewhere and wondered. I have had no issues but not a lot of following weather yet under my belt with the new system. 

Thanks!

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