Cleaning Fuel tank

[Castellina473]

I have a 2003 B473 which I purchased in 2007 and do not believe the
previous owner had ever cleaned his tank. How often should this be
done? This boat has only been sailed on the Chesapeake, and I have
the filters changed on a regular basis and have kept up with the
proper additives.

Thanks,

Fred DiMarco
B473
"Castellina"

[Bob at Gmail]

Fred,
Unless your filters are showing a lot of contamination I would not
worry about tank cleaning.
We have had no problems with "Our Dream" after 12+ seasons.

Bob
S/V Our Dream
'97 Beneteau Oceanis 351 #195
Slip C-17, Castle Harbor Marina
Chester River Kent Island
Chester, MD
_/)__/)__/)_

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Castellina473" <fred.j....@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:18 AM
To: "Beneteau Owners" <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank

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[Jeffrey]

Fred that depends upon the condition of the fuel... how do the filters look
when you change them, do you have a filter between the engine mounted one
and the tank...if that is not bad or fully clogged up when you change them
then I would think you tank is ok... if they are full of "black" sludge when
you change them then I would recommend having the fuel tanks looked at and
fuel polished.

We are sending our crew down to a client's boat today here in Miami to
polish the fuel because of this very reason, the filters are clogging...
will add additive to kill any live agents then pump fuel from the tank to a
Racor filter starting with a 30 micron and working down to a 2 micro filter,
will pump till the filters stay clean. We will also check for any sludge on
the bottom of the tank too.

Jeffrey Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Castellina473
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:19 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank

Thanks,

Fred DiMarco
B473
"Castellina"

--

[Rick Donovan]

On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Bob at Gmail wrote:

> Fred,
> Unless your filters are showing a lot of contamination I would not worry about tank cleaning.
> We have had no problems with "Our Dream" after 12+ seasons.
>
> Bob
>

Fred

I agree with Bob and Jeff.

if you are not having any problems with the filters going bad quickly, that would seem to tell me that your tank is in good shape. the black sludge mentioned is what your biocide additive eliminates when used regularly.

if you have had the engine running in rougher sea conditions, that would tell you quickly if there is sediment at the bottom of the tank because the sea state would have stirred any bad stuff from the motion of the boat sloshing the fuel around in the tank.

if you have not had any problems in those conditions, keep on doing what you are currently doing. it seems to be working.
the fuel additive is a key component of keeping the fuel clean in my opinion.

Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine

[Ivars]

Fuel breaks down with time...boats with full tanks that are never "emptied"
or used to low levels are at greatest risk...those topping off only the
"top" 20-25% after each outing are feeding the vintage mix... kind of like
feeding the starter yeast to make it grow.

Best to use fuel down to low ( safe ) levels where the new fuel represents
90-95% fresh fuel at least a couple of times a year. Boats that are rarely
sailed and engines run are at greater risk.

Sailing with partial tanks creates a lot agitation in the tank ( cleaning
the internals ), breaking up any settlement and not allowing it to stick or
settle to the bottom. Running the engine will filter out any crud that is
suspended. Most fuel related failures occur after a vigorous sail (on boats
that have been little used) where the tanks have been stirred allowing the
filters and fuel pickups to be fouled.

Diesel engine fuel systems have a continuous loop of fuel, fuel is pumped to
the engine with the excess returned to the tank, allowing the filters to
clean the fuel. Many run their diesels for a period of time before an outing
under the guise of warm up, better to run it a bit longer after a sail and
let the filters clean up any crud broken loose during the sail.

Check the color of your fuel by comparing it to freah fuel. Fresh fuel will
be much clearer in color, old fuel will look darker (toward brown) When fuel
is run through the system it is exposed to high pressure and high heat as it
passes through the injection block, breaking it down. Each pass through the
system breaks the fuel down further, another reason to use up the fuel in
the tank a couple of times a year.

If one is using their boat and using up their tanks a couple of times a
year, there should be no issues with
fuel.

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Castellina473
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:19 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank

Thanks,

Fred DiMarco
B473
"Castellina"

--

[John and Barbara Locke]

Fred: I have a 2005 473 (#237) with the 75hp engine and single fuel tank
that we have sailed on the Chesapeake Bay mostly and took her to the Keys in
2008/2009. No fuel problems until last spring when we had dirty filters
after a run outside NJ then again on Lake Erie. At first I blamed it on bad
fuel but since it only occurred after some heaver than normal sea action I
think the tank has crud in the bottom. I have scheduled polishing/cleaning
for the spring. I have used recommended additives regularly, but haven't
kept the tank filled as much as I should have except during winter layup.
When I had the two problems the filters were brown but didn't look too bad.
I was using 10 micron filters. I also plan on adding a vacuum gage and a
second racor in parallel so I can switch to a good filter when needed. Both
problems occurred when entering busy harbors (NYC and Put-in Bay). If you
are concerned try getting a sample of fuel from the bottom of the tank and
see what it looks like. If you are only going to be on the Bay, the problem
probably won't show up until you encounter some rough weather when the crud
on the bottom gets stirred up enough to get sucked into the filter.

John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Castellina473" <fred.j....@gmail.com>
To: "Beneteau Owners" <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:18 AM
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank

[Sailor Parker]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Our boat is a '91 and we've never
touched the fuel tank.
Unless an on deck gasket leaks or you put in contaminated fuel the
odds of having
fuel problems is slim to none. We use a 2 micron primary filter and a
2 micron on the engine.
We do add a Cetane booster and biocide with each fillup.
Yes, we've been on the Bay for 13 years.

[mark....@gmail.com]

We use 2 filters the same size, surely the second filter never traps anything as it all gets caught in the first. Isn't conventional wisdom to use a coarse filter first and a fine filter second?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

[ca...@aol.com]

Hi Ivars,

 

Thanks for this excellent overview of Fuel! We have seen clogged filters after running a tank low and your analysis explains it.

 

We always have the pump on with our Filter Boss and I think that gives us extra life out of our 5 micron primary filters. Last spring we got the suction alarm and flipped the valves to start the new filter. It got plugged up fairly quickly, too. I recently checked them out, and suction not a problem so they are keeping clean. We will make a point of running our fuel low again this year to avoid the 'Bodega' effect.

 

Maderia wine bodegas claim to be 100 or 200 years old because they sell 1/2 per year and add new vintage come fall. So ... There is a little bit of the first vintage still floating around. I'll keep that to a minimum by running tanks down to <10% before filling.

 

What about ValveTech fuel? Folks say that it's their prime choice even though it's a few cents more. Most of the folks talking about the product are trawler drivers, but I have heard sailors talking about it, too. Any word on advantages of ValveTech?

 

We spent a month in Georgetown and loved the place. It's close to great shopping in Myrtle Beach, but far enough away to avoid the clutter. Charleston is about an hour south. Really great food at good prices and a few good marinas ... Harbor Walk where we were, Boat Shed and Hazards. Great facilities at Hazards for hanging out and doing the wash.

 

Last night we anchored just north of Ben Sawyer Bridge at Inlet Creek. We could walk the dog on the north side of the entrance. On the south side it's mud and I planted my lower portion as I pulled the dink off the stuff on a falling tide. Gaak! Still rinsing mud out of the cockpit and dink.

 

Tonight we are just off the ICW where Wells Cut enters South Edisto River. Lovely spot with a state maintained dock. The place is infested with wild hogs, so our black dog Rhonda goes wild when we take her ashore. These critters are a real problem here in SC. I discovered that it would require killing 70% per year for 10 years to controll them! I wonder how they taste?

 

Tomorrow it's Beaufort, SC, and then down to Hilton Head for a few days.

 

Cap in S. Edisto, SC.

[dean forbis]

Cap.

 

While in Hilton Head eat at the Sea Shack. It's on a liitle side road between the Sea Pines traffic circle and the South Beach traffic circle.

 

Enjoy ,

 

Dean 

[JPM]

I would be interested in hearing what additives people use in their tank and
how often they use them. I was told a few years ago to use additives very
rarely (which I think was due to where I purchase my fuel most often). I
know some people will say I am crazy, but those are my facts, and I'd be
interested in hearing what other people do. Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Castellina473
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:18 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank

Thanks,

Fred DiMarco
B473
"Castellina"

--

[mark....@gmail.com]

I think a lot depends on where you buy your fuel and the auality of that fuel. If you buy a good quality fuel from an operator with modern equipment and high turnover you might consider not using an additive.

If the tanks are old and contaminated and turnover is low I would suggest you filter the fuel going in and use an additive.

I just tallied the log book last night for 2010 (we're out and winterized). We ran 100.1 hours last season and put 65 gallons in the tank. The majority of that was valvtek fuel which already contains an additive so we did not add any.

Mark
SV Calypso
Bene 381
New England

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "JPM" <jpmcla...@rcn.com>
Sender: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 08:36:57
To: <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

[Larry Read]

Hello everyone,

I am finding this a very interesting thread. There is a lot of mysticism out there when it comes to what contaminates fuel tanks. I do have several questions, it makes sense to run most of the old fuel out and add as much new as possible. The reality is we don't use the engine that much and that could take months. I have always been told a primary source of water in fuel tanks is condensation from air in tanks that are not full. The lower the fuel level the greater the condensation. Thoughts?

Next, we have been fortunate and have not experienced problems but how often do people find water in the bottom of the fuel bowl and drain it. We check it each time go but have never seen a trace if water. Is this normal. 

Finally has anyone used a ridged plastic tube (3/8 to 1/2 inch) and inserted it into the sump of the fuel tank through the inspection cover and sampled what's in the sump by putting your finger over the tube once it is at the bottom and pulling it out. I have heard you can sample your tank sump this way or if you have to buy fuel out of a barrel (heaven forbid) you can see the quality of the fuel at different levels. 

Larry

393 S/v Diamond Girl

Sent from my iPhone

[ca...@aol.com]

Thanks for the recommendation, Dean!

 

Cap in SC

[davidcf...@rogers.com]

All of your comments are correct. There are good additives that inhibit growth, absorb water and stabilize the fuel for the off season. A good practice is to pump the bottom two or three gallons out via the drain or the vent hole. Filter it with a Mr. Filter and see that is in there. Water is enemy one, growth is enemy #2. The warmer the climate the more trouble you may have. If your filters are lasting you most likely are ok

Fletch

------Original Message------
From: Larry Read
Sender: benetea...@googlegroups.com
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
ReplyTo: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Dec 4, 2010 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank & ICW Notes

Hello everyone,
I am finding this a very interesting thread. There is a lot of mysticism out there when it comes to what contaminates fuel tanks. I do have several questions, it makes sense to run most of the old fuel out and add as much new as possible. The reality is we don't use the engine that much and that could take months. I have always been told a primary source of water in fuel tanks is condensation from air in tanks that are not full. The lower the fuel level the greater the condensation. Thoughts?
Next, we have been fortunate and have not experienced problems but how often do people find water in the bottom of the fuel bowl and drain it. We check it each time go but have never seen a trace if water. Is this normal. 
Finally has anyone used a ridged plastic tube (3/8 to 1/2 inch) and inserted it into the sump of the fuel tank through the inspection cover and sampled what's in the sump by putting your finger over the tube once it is at the bottom and pulling it out. I have heard you can sample your tank sump this way or if you have to buy fuel out of a barrel (heaven forbid) you can see the quality of the fuel at different levels. 
Larry
393 S/v Diamond Girl

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2010, at 5:17 PM, ca...@aol.com <mailto:ca...@aol.com> wrote:

Hi Ivars,
 
Thanks for this excellent overview of Fuel! We have seen clogged filters after running a tank low and your analysis explains it.
 
We always have the pump on with our Filter Boss and I think that gives us extra life out of our 5 micron primary filters. Last spring we got the suction alarm and flipped the valves to start the new filter. It got plugged up fairly quickly, too. I recently checked them out, and suction not a problem so they are keeping clean. We will make a point of running our fuel low again this year to avoid the 'Bodega' effect.
 
Maderia wine bodegas claim to be 100 or 200 years old because they sell 1/2 per year and add new vintage come fall. So ... There is a little bit of the first vintage still floating around. I'll keep that to a minimum by running tanks down to <10% before filling.
 
What about ValveTech fuel? Folks say that it's their prime choice even though it's a few cents more. Most of the folks talking about the product are trawler drivers, but I have heard sailors talking about it, too. Any word on advantages of ValveTech?
 
We spent a month in Georgetown and loved the place. It's close to great shopping in Myrtle Beach, but far enough away to avoid the clutter. Charleston is about an hour south. Really great food at good prices and a few good marinas ... Harbor Walk where we were, Boat Shed and Hazards. Great facilities at Hazards for hanging out and doing the wash.
 
Last night we anchored just north of Ben Sawyer Bridge at Inlet Creek. We could walk the dog on the north side of the entrance. On the south side it's mud and I planted my lower portion as I pulled the dink off the stuff on a falling tide. Gaak! Still rinsing mud out of the cockpit and dink.
 
Tonight we are just off the ICW where Wells Cut enters South Edisto River. Lovely spot with a state maintained dock. The place is infested with wild hogs, so our black dog Rhonda goes wild when we take her ashore. These critters are a real problem here in SC. I discovered that it would require killing 70% per year for 10 years to controll them! I wonder how they taste?
 
Tomorrow it's Beaufort, SC, and then down to Hilton Head for a few days.
 
Cap in S. Edisto, SC.



-----Original Message-----
From: Ivars <dbg...@mindspring.com <mailto:dbg...@mindspring.com> >
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com <mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:17 am
Subject: RE: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank


Fuel breaks down with time...boats with full tanks that are never "emptied" or used to low levels are at greatest risk...those topping off only the "top" 20-25% after each outing are feeding the vintage mix... kind of like feeding the starter yeast to make it grow. Best to use fuel down to low ( safe ) levels where the ne

Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

[ca...@aol.com]

Two years ago I inspected the bottom of the Yanmar filter bowels and it was 1/2 full of water (Racor 500). I added a valve and hose to each of my three fuel filters (Yanmar has 2, NextGen has one). I am not as regular as I have been with emptying the filters, but we have been using our engine lots so the fuel doesn't sit around. I think ValveTech fuel is a good hedge against problems. I'll have to check prices next time we refuel, probably in Jacksonville.

 

Cap SC

[Jeffrey]

I personally use an additive... any major brand will do.

Jeffrey Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JPM
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:37 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Proper Fuel Additives/Formerly: Cleaning Fuel
tank

[bill wagner]

We use Biobor every time we fuel up.

 

So far no problems.

 

Bill

[Bob at Gmail]

Here is a mix I got from this or some other list.

I use a variation of it and store it in small empty pill bottles with an amount for 10 gals that I dump in before each 10 gal (my usual) fill up.

 

DIESEL MIX

Ahoy List! Ok I'm gonna fess up. For several years now I have been premixing additives to add to my fuel at fill-ups. The number and quantity of additives "required" is absurd to add ala-carte at the fuel dock. I have been using 10 oz Schweppes tonic bottles (gotta use up the Goslings somehow) and pre mixing for addition to 10 gal. Its a big hit in our YC!

 

GRANDPA BOB'S DIESEL MIX (for 10 gal)

 

Store and Start Anti-gel                                          0.833 oz

Water Zorbe Remove water                                   1.25 oz

Bio Bore Jr Algaecide                                                0.25 oz

Marvel Mystery Oil Upper cyl lube                        4.0 oz

Cetane Booster (Diesel Viagra)                            1.25 oz

 

So that's the mix, I batch up a big mix at the beginning of the season and store it aboard for those dreaded (means I’m not sailing) fill ups. I too (John Grey) was concerned about mixing them all together... even spoke to a young lad at Boat US...no one REALLY knows, and what possible consequences could it have... mixing together... lack of potency...nuclear meltdown...lets get on with our lives and get sailing...

 

[Capt Brian]

I put in Biobor JF at every fill and every year or so I put in a in a
pint or more of cetane booster which you can get at Walmart. I have a
plastic tube connected to the bottom fuel tank drain valve and use it
to draw off fuel during fuel changes, see if there is any
contamination and to check the "real" tank level. After 15 years I
have only had a problem once, many years ago, and that was when I put
in some contaminated fuel. When I checked the tank during a fuel
gauge sender problem the tank was almost spotless. I have never seen
water in my racor. If you use a water separating funnel while fueling
it will eliminate most water problems.

Brian

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[Ivars]

The primary source of water in fuel is through faulty deck fittings ( failed o rings on the filler cap ).

 

All fuel can have two types of water in it.  One is loose water that we see, the other is disolved water embedded in the fuel which can grow crud or precipitate out.   Additives are good for the embedded water and can remove it before it reaches the filter.

 

Water always settles to the lowest point in a tank while at rest. Additives will seek out this water.   Many fuel filters have a spring loaded drain plug at the bottom.  Place a collection cup under the filter drain, push up on the plug and flush out any water and crud into the cup.  Airplanes have multiple drain points in their fuel systems which are flushed before each flight,  An airplane cango through hundreds of gallons of fuel in an hour or a day,  yet there is water to be drained each time.  Single use filters are popular, but need to be discarded once they are saturated with water etc.   Getting a filter with a drain is an easy and convenient way to keep up with fuel quality.  Failing to change or drain the filters makes the filter ineffective. 

 

Condensation can be a source, although it is insignificant. Fuel tanks on sailboats are very small (only two or three cubic feet in volume).   There have been numerous studies published that debunk the myth about condensation, yet everyone succombs to the condensation myth.  Any concerns about condensation are easily addressed by additives.

 

There is no need for the fuel tank to be full, short of going off on a cruise.  Most of us use our boats "3 times around the harbor and back to the mooring for cocktails"  :=)   Full tanks do not agitate very well,  while a partial tank of fuel will allow for maximum agiation with in the tank,  not allowing for any sediment / crud to build up by keeping the inside well scrubbed. Most of the fuel in a partial tank will get used up more often, alowing for fresh fuel to be added allowing for an overall fresher supply.  The fuel in our vehicles gets used up weekly or more often, keeping the fuel fresh without any issue.  Yet we have fuel related issues with our lawn mowers if left unused over the winter.   Fuel does NOT preserve,  why insist on going against nature / science.

---

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Read
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 9:20 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Cleaning Fuel tank & ICW Notes

[Ben Campbell]

I was about to ask the same question. It might also be helpful to indicate your primary sailing location, or at least climate.

[Edward Butt]

Larry,
Good question. I too would like to know the groups experience.

For myself, I have never experienced diesel water contamination from a United States fill and have never experienced water or any contamination inside my tank which couldn't be handled easily by my dual racors. On the other hand, I have experienced water and particulate contamination from fills in the Bahamas and Baja.

The worst experience was a fill at Davis Harbor, Eletheura Is. We pulled in the day after a major fishing tournament and took on almost a full tank. I didn't use my Baja filter because the big tournament rig next to me said he had never had a problem with Davis Harbor fuel in the years he had been coming there. But the next day we didn't get very far into Exuma Sound before both filters plugged--gooey, slimy black stuff, and also water appeared in both filter bowls. The contamination was so bad that we couldn't clear it with multiple filter changes, so we sailed through Highborne cut (hairy) to Nassau where we had the tank polished. The explanation we got later was that the tournament boats sucked up the good fuel in the top of the shore tanks and we got the dregs. Also a petroleum engineer said it was probably asphaltine rather than algae. I don't know...

I now use the West Marine filter (better than the Baja filter) for all offshore or remote US fills. I also put a biocide in the tank if the fill is more than half a tank, and I look at the water traps/filters in my racors before and after all trips and all fills. I change both my primary and secondary filters every year. The past four years, I fill my tanks once a year in order keep relatively fresh fuel in the tank. Water from condensation has not been a problem. I have also installed three seabuilt inspection ports in my tank. I open my inspection ports after the boat has been sitting a few months or at least twice a year and shine a spotlight around the bottom of the tank to see if there is contamination. I have only found a small amount of dark particulate matter on the bottom once in four years. It may have been algae but I'm not sure. I have never found water.

If I seem paranoid about diesel contamination, it's because I am. My methods stem from this paranoia and also anecdotal advice from other sailors, not science. Perhaps the listers can offer better procedures.

Edward
OC 461

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Read <larry...@yahoo.com>

[Edward Butt]

Ivars,
You have confirmed my experience which is that a significant amount of water does not get into my tank through condensation, and what does get in is taken care by additives and my racor traps. Also your advice on ensuring that the diesel fill port is properly sealed has prompted me to add that to my inspection list. Thank you.

Edward
OC 461 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ivars <dbg...@mindspring.com>

[Taner HALACOGLU]

Hi,

I want to get a MMSI number and call sighn to program my DSC radio and AIS.

On my old boat I got it from Boat us online but I will cruise international waters so the web site says that I have to get it from FCC.

Tried the fcc site but it is so much complicated. Any body got one from FCC what is the most easy and fast way to get a call sighn and MMSI.

Thanks,
Taner