Assistance needed - First 310 Overpowered?

[Ray]

We just purchased a 1992 First 310 this season to sail on lake St.
Clair. The othe night we were sailing in 7 knot winds and were hit
with a wind shift line. Things got exciting before I released the
main sheet. Not what I like to have happen when we have first time
guests on board. We have had one or two other occasions where the
boat felt a bit tender for the conditions. It is a shoal draft and it
looks like the jib is about a 125 (which was unfurled for 7 knot
winds). My comparison boat is a Catalina 27 which had a 150 genoa and
we could put the rail almost in the water and it felt very stable.
One post I read said that the 310 needs the main reefed above 15 knots
which I follow. Also, how far can she heel before we all go
swimming? The Catalina just seemed to spill the wind and stabalize
but I do not get that feeling with the 310. What might I be doing
wrong? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Ray

[Tony]

Ray,   As a former co-owner of another 92 - 310. I thought that it was one of the best looking boats for its size in existence. However, performance is extremely lacking as this boat is very, very tender. I would suggest that you reef in anything above 10-12 knots, keep the boat as flat as possible. It won't go over, but it will broach.   Tony --- On Sun, 10/3/10, Ray <rbz...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rick Donovan]

Ray
it is not apparent how much experience you have sailing from your question, so please be sure that I am not trying to offend you in my reply by talking basics. with more specifics I am sure the list can offer some very detailed suggestions for your scenario.

I am going to let others who have actual experience with this model respond to your specific questions on the situation, but I wanted to reply with a targeted question and comments on general sailing tips that could help out with this.

my question is on your comparison of the Catalina 27 and the First 310. you say the 310 has a shoal keel. did the Catalina also have a shoal draft or was it a deep keel version. if it was the deep version that may go a long way towards explaining the difference you feel between the 2 models. hull shape would also have a major effect on the feel of the boat in gusty conditions. and to add to that thought, is the sail area of the Beneteau higher in respect to the Catalina, i.e. the mast is taller or a more main sail area. I think it is fair to say that many boats with shoal draft do not respond well to gusty conditions. it is my opinion that a deep draft keel helps a lot in a gust. others may disagree.

I know exactly the feeling of having guests onboard and being caught by surprise. for me it is one of the worst mistakes I can make. I just hate looking bad I guess. that said, what I learned very early on is to get my eyes out ahead of the boat. this can be somewhat difficult to do with guests aboard because of distractions, I know, but had you been looking well ahead of the boat, you may have had the few minutes warning that you needed to prepare the boat and the guests for a short burst of weather. even when talking to folks in the cockpit, I tried to keep my eyes looking out towards the horizon, always scanning for that next "thing" that was going to make me look bad, lol.

you did not mention how much wind came in and whether it was from a different direction or just an increase in pressure, etc. you also did not mention whether anyone else has sailing experience during this sail. a second set of exerienced hands may have been a big help also. you are certainly not the first to get caught like this, but with time you can learn to see these things in advance and be ready for them. sailing has a very steep learning curve. then add for an experienced sailor that learning your new boat can be just about as steep a curve and it will be obvious that there will be bad times every now and then for all of us. the key as I see it is to do what you can to prepare yourself ahead of time and minimize those adrenaline charged moments. a few minutes warning can be real valuable in certain situations. there are things you can do as skipper to lessen the exposure to such times.

give us some details and I am sure others will reply with what they have done in the past. this is one of the best parts of this list, there is a tremendous amount of experience here to draw from. all you have to do is ask and you will receive, maybe more than you need at times.

Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine

depending on actual circumstances of this change of wind, you may have had some tricks you could have used to sort of feather the boat in the new wind to take some of the pressure off the boat until the gusts passed, there by keeping the boat a bit more level, in control and keeping the guests a bit more settled as well. in the end, we have all been there at one time or another. learn from it and move on. we all have made errors while sailing, my goal was to not make the same mistakes twice.

[Ray]

Tony,
Thanks for your opinion of the boat as a former owner. I agree it is
a good looking boat especially the interior.

Rick,
First of all I will not be offended because I am here to learn. My
sailing experience started with a sunfish in my late teens which is
probably a good place to start. Later my wife and I owned a Catalina
22 with a swing keel for one year. The next year we traded up to the
Catalina 27 with a standard keel and probably a bit less sail area
than the Ben 310. We sold the 27 when we started a family and now we
are getting back into it 25 years later. This spring we were in
Annapolis and we rented a 25 Hunter for a few hours. That was a
tender boat as well. We experienced a round up whe we exited the more
protected areas. Nobody liked that, especially my daughter who was
below at the time.

As far as our wind shift experience on lake St Clair I did see the
change in the surface appearance when it was about 50 yards out. We
had just checked the true wind and it was 90 degrees to port. I think
it shifted to maybe another 30 or 40 degrees and increased slightly
from 7-8 knots. My guest was at the helm and he had been on about 10
Mackinaw crews back in the day. Fortunately I have learned to have
the main sheet handy and I was able to quickly ease the main and head
more into the wind.

So it may be a combination of me using too much sail for the
conditions on a boat that is tender to begin with as Tony attested
to. If it is more the boat than me I will have to start thinking
about a boat more suited to our needs. Rick and Tony - I appreciate
the benefit of your experience.

Regards,
Ray

> depending on actual circumstances of this change of wind, you may have had some tricks you could have used to sort of feather the boat in the new wind to take some of the pressure off the boat until the gusts passed, there by keeping the boat a bit more level, in control and keeping the guests a bit more settled as well. in the end, we have all been there at one time or another. learn from it and move on. we all have made errors while sailing, my goal was to not make the same mistakes twice.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Randy Rohrbeck]

We've owned a First 310 for about 12 years, it's also a shoal draft. We
generally start thinking about reefing the main in anything over 15 and
start rolling in the jib as it gets closer to 20. The flatter you can keep
it the better because the rubber will really act like a brake if you're
fighting weather helm.

The boat is a racer/cruiser and I guess it would be considered more tender
then most cruising type boats, but I don't feel it's an especially tender
boat for what it's designed to be.

The winds the day the attached picture was taken were running around 25 and
we didn't feel especially overpowered.

Randy

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 10:33 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Assistance needed - First 310 Overpowered?

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[Ted]

Nice picture. We have a lifting keel 323, and it also has the same characteristics. My feeling is that it has less initial stiffness than a deeper keel but still Is reasonably safe and steady. The difference is that it doesn't lock at some particular angle of heel, but gradually stabilizes, and always has plenty of righting moment. It's mostly a matter of getting used to the motion.

Sent from my iPhone

> <Magic.jpg>

[Uwe Mewes]

Great picture.

Thanks

Uwe Mewes
F305
Heaven Can Wait

[Uwe Mewes]

Congratulations! You purchased a great boat. We own a First 305 which is
pretty close to your First 310. Almost identical dimensions. If you broach
or round up - it means in easy words - too much pushes the boat side ways
rather than forward. If the boat does not accelerate in gusts it typically
means incorrect sail trim. A dirty bottom with lots of marine fauna slows
acceleration as a turned rudder will do too. We went out this afternoon in
10+ knots. It was my wife and a teenager. I reefed the main from the start
and sailed with a 110% jib. We had the rail in the water plenty of times in
gusts with the traveler all the way to leeward but the helm was almost
neutral. I could steer the wheel with two fingers. Much of the wind energy
was used to move the boat forward. The rudder was straight (not slowing the
boat). No drama, just going fast. Every one had a good time. Passing boats
is soooooo much fun :-).
When we race, we go out with a crew of seven. With a crew available for each
line, it's very easy to adjust for different wind conditions instantly and
measured. Even with a full crew, the 155% jib goes down at 10 knots. We used
to get overpowered the first couple of years quickly in gusts. It all
changed when I upgraded the main sheet to a two speed (1 : 4 & 1 :16) and
the traveler to a 1 : 3 purchase.

[bobs...@aol.com]

25 knots of wind + today on the Long Island Sound....short video of the reefed (and still slightly over-canvassed!) First 35s5....had a great time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqwcHEeQe8

Robert E. Brody

Bobs...@aol.com

[Rick D'Amico]

WOW!

Great video, thanks for sending!    Who’s at the helm?

 

Rick D’Amico

B-323

San Diego

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[Rick Donovan]

On Oct 3, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Tony wrote:

Ray,   As a former co-owner of another 92 - 310. I thought that it was one of the best looking boats for its size in existence. However, performance is extremely lacking as this boat is very, very tender. I would suggest that you reef in anything above 10-12 knots, keep the boat as flat as possible. It won't go over, but it will broach.   Tony

this is for Ray's question but I wanted to add a thought, and correct me if I have it wrong. 

the First series is the "racing" models from Beneteau correct?? I would expect them in general to have a bit more aggressive hull designs and more sail area for a given boat length than say the Oceannis series of a similar length for instance.

for those of you that race this model or any other first model with a full crew, talk about how the crew weight on the rail during a typical race affects sailing this boat vs how this same boat is going to sail while off on an afternoon cruise with just the wife and no crew on the rail. 

removing crew weight from the rail for that cruise mode would make the boat seem tender wouldn't it?? it seems to me that the boat would feel much more tender in cruise mode, especially to someone that does not race. if you were to park 5-6 200# guys on the rail in a building breeze, this boat is going to sail dramatically different right?

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

[bobs...@aol.com]

"Try, oh try....a little tenderness!"

This thread reminds me of the guy who said he raced the 35s5 and found it hard to sail. It's important to see the setup on a variety of boats, along with their various sails and trimming mods to truly understand how a boat sails...and to ultimately enjoy her potential. It took quite a bit of trial and error before our boat was set up correctly.

As for the 310, I've sailed two. And they were vastly different boats even though they both had high-end sail packages. The first had a deeper cut main and was tougher to deal with as the draft was not correct. The jibs were also different, one being cut higher that the first. The 310 is not tender for what she was designed for. With a good sail plan she is fun to sail and fast. Tender? Nope, not in ANY WAY for the type of boat she is. She is not a Catalina or Cape Dory.

The 310's aft section allows for a bit of serious rolling effect when she gets close to a knockdown; she can "feel" a bit less stable (as expected) when pushed. She displaces about a ton less than a Catalina 30, so everything is going to happen quicker and balance is about your skills as much as anything else. As a reference point, the 310 I sailed was able to hang with a well sailed J30. The J30 is substantially more tender than the 310.

Reef when in doubt or when the crew is new. Ultimately YOUR reaction to a gust is what matters most, both in attitude and the speed in which you deal with it. 

Great boat! Enjoy it.

Robert E. Brody

Bobs...@aol.com

[bobs...@aol.com]

Old sailing pal, Liz....we owned our first boat (Catalina 27) together. She's a good sailor. 

Robert E. Brody

Bobs...@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick D'Amico <rick-...@cox.net>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

[Noble, Milner E.]

Nice.  Also nice video work.

--Milner

---

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of bobs...@aol.com

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 10:36 PM

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Fast Sailing Today!

[Noble, Milner E.]

Rick's observations here fit my 1982 First 30E very well. If I post three heavy people on the high side, we can do things we can't do when I single-hand or go out for a run with the "admiral."  In 15 knots with higher gusts and with weight on the rail I can play the traveler and a little sheet, go fast and stay around 15-20 degrees.  With less crew, moving the jibsheet to the toe rail snatch blocks depowers it enough at 15 knots to sail well without dramatic heeling.

--Milner

---

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Donovan
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 4:57 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Assistance needed - First 310 Overpowered?

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