Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
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Gaute
Jan 20, 2009, 10:36:51 AM1/20/09
to Beneteau Owners
Hey all ! I always had issues with the upwind performance of our 361
when racing and I always had the settings set according to the rig
tuning guide from NP. Last saturday I sailed with the guy who normally
wins our class, whos boat was being worked on, and he pushed the genoa
cars way back...
I was nervous at first but after seeing the new profile and keeping up
with boats who in past would blast by me, I was sold. I think the
tuning guide was just confusing to me and barely a guideline, I'll now
keep my genoa track much further aft. thought it be worth
mentioning :)
Cheers !
Gaute
when racing and I always had the settings set according to the rig
tuning guide from NP. Last saturday I sailed with the guy who normally
wins our class, whos boat was being worked on, and he pushed the genoa
cars way back...
I was nervous at first but after seeing the new profile and keeping up
with boats who in past would blast by me, I was sold. I think the
tuning guide was just confusing to me and barely a guideline, I'll now
keep my genoa track much further aft. thought it be worth
mentioning :)
Cheers !
Gaute
kbk...@aol.com
Jan 20, 2009, 10:46:34 AM1/20/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
jib car position is dependent on wind velocity and sailing course
(close hauled, reaching, broad reach, etc)
light winds you want to power up so put more curve into the sail, jib
car more forward
increase in wind, bring the car back... also put wind ticks on the sail
about 1 foot back from the luft of the sail and use these indications
for sail trim and boat heading(sailing close to wind vs lufting(too
close to wind)...
Have a Great Day!!! Brad
(close hauled, reaching, broad reach, etc)
light winds you want to power up so put more curve into the sail, jib
car more forward
increase in wind, bring the car back... also put wind ticks on the sail
about 1 foot back from the luft of the sail and use these indications
for sail trim and boat heading(sailing close to wind vs lufting(too
close to wind)...
Have a Great Day!!! Brad
Ivars
Jan 20, 2009, 10:52:52 AM1/20/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
DO NOT TREAT ANY TUNING GUIDE as an ABSOLUTE
Use a tuning guide as a starting point only. Rigs are not all set up the
same, sail shape changes with time and sail maker, genoa cars are adjusted
as the wind changes. The list goes on... Learn how to shape / trim your
sails for different conditions. There is a notion that tuning guides are
absolute and must be followed to the letter...that is ALL WRONG.
-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gaute
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:37 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
Use a tuning guide as a starting point only. Rigs are not all set up the
same, sail shape changes with time and sail maker, genoa cars are adjusted
as the wind changes. The list goes on... Learn how to shape / trim your
sails for different conditions. There is a notion that tuning guides are
absolute and must be followed to the letter...that is ALL WRONG.
-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gaute
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:37 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
mark....@gmail.com
Jan 20, 2009, 11:01:49 AM1/20/09
to Beneteau Owners
I am just totally envious of you guys still out sailing
Its about 20 degrees here in the North East and the boat is wrapped up like a ....... Sigh
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: kbk...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:46:34
To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
Its about 20 degrees here in the North East and the boat is wrapped up like a ....... Sigh
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: kbk...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:46:34
To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
Brian Smith
Jan 20, 2009, 11:33:34 AM1/20/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
I found lots of great info in Don Guillette's "Sail Trim User's
Guide", available at sailtrimproducts.com.
Guide", available at sailtrimproducts.com.
He's got theory in an easily understandable form, and a quick cheat
sheet (chart) for when you're out sailing.
Give it a try ... it's great winter reading!
He's also got a forum at http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17
Brian
p.s. ... I re-read my post and it sounds like I'm a salesman for
him ... I'm not, just a happy customer.
______________________
Brian Smith
OC381
Annapolis, MD USA
Lynn Greentree
Jan 20, 2009, 3:43:25 PM1/20/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
On our 361 we have noticed a big differance in upwind preformance with the amount of mast prebend. No prebend cannot point.
Lynn Greentree
361 Dolphin Tales
Victoria BC
(Now in Mazatlan Mexico)
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, mark....@gmail.com <mark....@gmail.com> wrote:
__________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
Lynn Greentree
361 Dolphin Tales
Victoria BC
(Now in Mazatlan Mexico)
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, mark....@gmail.com <mark....@gmail.com> wrote:
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
Ivars
Jan 20, 2009, 4:02:14 PM1/20/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Prebend has absolutely nothing to do with pointing.
Prebend is all about the cut of the main sail and how it sets on the rig.
( Does NOT apply to roller furling mains )
It is a combination of rig and main sail design that may involve prebending
a mast. Some rig / sail combinations are plumb / straight ( current
thinking ) while other rig /sail combinations like a lot of prebend.
As a sail ("Dacron") ages it will stretch causing the draft to become
deeper. Bending the mast will pull out the draft ( belly ) of the sail
making it flatter or getting back some of it's original shape. A backstay
adjuster will bend the mast to add or take out draft depending on what is
needed for the conditions. Cap shrouds will bend the mast ( prebend ) to
the desired postiton while at the dock as part of set up, the backstay will
fine tune the mast while under way.
Prebend is all about the cut of the main sail and how it sets on the rig.
( Does NOT apply to roller furling mains )
It is a combination of rig and main sail design that may involve prebending
a mast. Some rig / sail combinations are plumb / straight ( current
thinking ) while other rig /sail combinations like a lot of prebend.
As a sail ("Dacron") ages it will stretch causing the draft to become
deeper. Bending the mast will pull out the draft ( belly ) of the sail
making it flatter or getting back some of it's original shape. A backstay
adjuster will bend the mast to add or take out draft depending on what is
needed for the conditions. Cap shrouds will bend the mast ( prebend ) to
the desired postiton while at the dock as part of set up, the backstay will
fine tune the mast while under way.
Gaute
Jan 21, 2009, 10:12:06 AM1/21/09
to Beneteau Owners
Second that at this point I'm treating the tuning guide like my other
how to dock guides I got after a few bad landings, the might provide
another thought on how to do it but thats about it... the track, which
really was the only thing mentioned in there along with looking at the
sail, was way to far forward even for superlight wind. thanks all for
great tips on tuning !
> Gaute- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
how to dock guides I got after a few bad landings, the might provide
another thought on how to do it but thats about it... the track, which
really was the only thing mentioned in there along with looking at the
sail, was way to far forward even for superlight wind. thanks all for
great tips on tuning !
>
> - Show quoted text -
nealalex235
Jan 21, 2009, 11:25:36 AM1/21/09
to Beneteau Owners
A couple years back someone on this recommended a book on sail trim by
a fellow named "Walker". It seems to be written more for lasers and
such, but I have been reading it, because here in Chicago, it is a
close as I can get to sailing. Thankful for the upcoming sail show in
about a week to get geared for spring.
I remember reading that for upwind, close hauled, that one wants a
very flat main. I am afraid that I do not remember much more, as the
book is very complex and comprehensive.
Last week I learned what "ooching" and "pumping" were.
I saw this Volvo Ocean Race move - it is on here every saturday night
on WOW channel. Funny to see these guys on a 70' yacht "ooching" -
I belive it was just for fun :)
If you can see the footage it is worth every moment - in one episode
the russion crew does a knock down in the Indian ocean if something
like 40' swells. Well I am going way off topic.
The Henry Walker book is worth the read on sail trim.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
a fellow named "Walker". It seems to be written more for lasers and
such, but I have been reading it, because here in Chicago, it is a
close as I can get to sailing. Thankful for the upcoming sail show in
about a week to get geared for spring.
I remember reading that for upwind, close hauled, that one wants a
very flat main. I am afraid that I do not remember much more, as the
book is very complex and comprehensive.
Last week I learned what "ooching" and "pumping" were.
I saw this Volvo Ocean Race move - it is on here every saturday night
on WOW channel. Funny to see these guys on a 70' yacht "ooching" -
I belive it was just for fun :)
If you can see the footage it is worth every moment - in one episode
the russion crew does a knock down in the Indian ocean if something
like 40' swells. Well I am going way off topic.
The Henry Walker book is worth the read on sail trim.
Ivars
Jan 21, 2009, 11:53:08 AM1/21/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Moving the genoa car forward and aft changes the "slot"... the space between
the jib and the main. Moving the car forward tightens the leech, increases
the camber in the sail powering it up. Moving the car aft opens the slot by
loosening the leech and causes the sail to be pulled flatter depowering the
sail.
the jib and the main. Moving the car forward tightens the leech, increases
the camber in the sail powering it up. Moving the car aft opens the slot by
loosening the leech and causes the sail to be pulled flatter depowering the
sail.
Lynn Greentree
Jan 21, 2009, 1:34:26 PM1/21/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
We never had a problem pointing until the babystay was slackened off and prebend was takenout of the mast, cars etc were set the same as before and the boat would not point, once prebend was placed back in the mast we were able to point the same as before. We do have the furling main. Another 361 in our club had problem pointing as looked at our set up, had his rigger adjust theirs and there upwind prefomance improved.
It works for us.
Lynn Greentree
B361 Dolphin Tales
Victoria BC
(Now in Mexico)
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, Ivars <dbg...@mindspring.com> wrote:
It works for us.
Lynn Greentree
B361 Dolphin Tales
Victoria BC
(Now in Mexico)
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, Ivars <dbg...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Bill Jarvis
Jan 21, 2009, 1:54:51 PM1/21/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Lynn,
That it worked for you is good. What you were doing was prebending the mast
to match the luff of the mainsail. Prebend would not work for all and more
may not be better for yours.
Bill
That it worked for you is good. What you were doing was prebending the mast
to match the luff of the mainsail. Prebend would not work for all and more
may not be better for yours.
Bill
Rick Donovan
Jan 21, 2009, 1:58:56 PM1/21/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Lynn
I am assuming that you did not adjust the back stay but just
tightened the baby stay to get your pre bend from your last, is that
correct??
I am assuming that you did not adjust the back stay but just
tightened the baby stay to get your pre bend from your last, is that
correct??
by tightening the baby stay, where do you feel you made gains in your
upwind ability?? sail trim, the main, the genoa, both, none of the
above??
while reading this thread, I was running thru my head some of the
adjustments I would try to make for improving pointing ability. after
making the genoa car adjustments and halyard tension for the genoa
and main sail, tightening the outhaul on the main sail all to match
wind speed and water conditions. I would then look towards rig
adjustments like tightening the back stay. that adjustment should
take sag out of the head stay which should help your up wind genoa
trim by reducing and relocating the draft position. with a Classic
main sail this pre bend you are speaking of would also flatten the
middle portion of the main and may open the leech a bit as well. all
of these adjustments should help upwind.
But, you are saying that all you adjusted was the baby stay AND that
you have a furling main. I do not understand why this would help at
all for your upwind sailing because the furling main is basically
unaffected by the pre bend due to the furling extrusion of the main
sail. it may help slightly with head stay tension but I would think
the change would be minimal.
I always thought that I was pretty good at sail trim but maybe I am
missing something from this conversation.
we all do what ever works for our boat in the end, but this one has
me a bit baffled. maybe someone can explain it to me some day.
happy sailing in Mexico, it sure beats the 2 feet of snow on the
ground here.
Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine
Ivars
Jan 21, 2009, 3:42:41 PM1/21/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
You should not be using the baby stay for any kind of rig adjustment. The
baby stay is used as a preventer only...to prevent pumping and to prevent
the mast from inverting. It is for light duty only. ( just look at the deck
fitting and the absence of any structure below it ) ( I have seen too many
baby stays pulled out of the deck, by those that insisted to use it to set
the rig )
Sounds like you are using the baby stay to move the top of the mast back
which apparently tightened the forestay. Use your back stay and cap shrouds
for the same result and take the load off the baby stay. (it should be snug
but not carrying any real load )
-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Greentree
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:34 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
baby stay is used as a preventer only...to prevent pumping and to prevent
the mast from inverting. It is for light duty only. ( just look at the deck
fitting and the absence of any structure below it ) ( I have seen too many
baby stays pulled out of the deck, by those that insisted to use it to set
the rig )
Sounds like you are using the baby stay to move the top of the mast back
which apparently tightened the forestay. Use your back stay and cap shrouds
for the same result and take the load off the baby stay. (it should be snug
but not carrying any real load )
-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Greentree
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:34 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
We never had a problem pointing until the babystay was slackened off and
prebend was takenout of the mast, cars etc were set the same as before and
the boat would not point, once prebend was placed back in the mast we were
able to point the same as before. We do have the furling main. Another 361
in our club had problem pointing as looked at our set up, had his rigger
adjust theirs and there upwind prefomance improved.
It works for us.
Lynn Greentree
B361 Dolphin Talesb
prebend was takenout of the mast, cars etc were set the same as before and
the boat would not point, once prebend was placed back in the mast we were
able to point the same as before. We do have the furling main. Another 361
in our club had problem pointing as looked at our set up, had his rigger
adjust theirs and there upwind prefomance improved.
It works for us.
Lynn Greentree
Leonard
Jan 21, 2009, 7:26:03 PM1/21/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Lynn:
How much prebend were you able to put in the mast with a furling main????
Leonard
B 361
How much prebend were you able to put in the mast with a furling main????
Leonard
B 361
Lynn Greentree
Jan 23, 2009, 10:09:47 PM1/23/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
The rig was set up by the Beneteau Dealer in Vancouver with about 3 inches of prebend in the mast.
Lynn Greentree
B361 Dolphin Tales
Victoria BC
(Mazatlan Mexico)
--- On Wed, 1/21/09, Leonard <Captain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
__________________________________________________________________
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Lynn Greentree
B361 Dolphin Tales
Victoria BC
--- On Wed, 1/21/09, Leonard <Captain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
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Gaute
Jan 24, 2009, 9:08:01 PM1/24/09
to Beneteau Owners
Amazing how many different views there are on the rigtuning and I'm
reading all hoping I'll get to try them. one thing that impressed me
is that I moved the car back abour 2-3 feet and like you all say it
closed the gap between the sails but it also tightened up the leach
AND the foot of the sail... it was as if I could pull it flatter with
actually less force, I'm going to try far more extreme settings while
sailing than I did before, both for genoa tracks and loose/tight
halyards. I'm hoping to get my standing rigging tightened to specs
tomorrow using my new tool...
thank you all for ideas and experiences, I just didnt know I could go
this far in the tweaks..
On Jan 23, 7:09 pm, Lynn Greentree <blgt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The rig was set up by the Beneteau Dealer in Vancouver with about 3 inches of prebend in the mast.
>
> Lynn Greentree
> B361 Dolphin Tales
> Victoria BC
> (Mazatlan Mexico)
>
> --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Leonard <Captainjack...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > --- On Tue, 1/20/09, mark.wi...@gmail.com
> > > <mark.wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.flickr.com/gift/- Hide quoted text -
reading all hoping I'll get to try them. one thing that impressed me
is that I moved the car back abour 2-3 feet and like you all say it
closed the gap between the sails but it also tightened up the leach
AND the foot of the sail... it was as if I could pull it flatter with
actually less force, I'm going to try far more extreme settings while
sailing than I did before, both for genoa tracks and loose/tight
halyards. I'm hoping to get my standing rigging tightened to specs
tomorrow using my new tool...
thank you all for ideas and experiences, I just didnt know I could go
this far in the tweaks..
On Jan 23, 7:09 pm, Lynn Greentree <blgt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The rig was set up by the Beneteau Dealer in Vancouver with about 3 inches of prebend in the mast.
>
> Lynn Greentree
> B361 Dolphin Tales
> Victoria BC
> (Mazatlan Mexico)
>
> > > <mark.wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bill Jarvis
Jan 24, 2009, 10:00:01 PM1/24/09
to Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Gaute,
Before you start using the guage please be sure that the masthead is in the
center of the boat and that the intermediates are set so that the sail track
is straight. These are necessary preconditions before you deal with rig
tension.
Bill
Before you start using the guage please be sure that the masthead is in the
center of the boat and that the intermediates are set so that the sail track
is straight. These are necessary preconditions before you deal with rig
tension.
Bill
Gaute
Jan 25, 2009, 11:21:19 AM1/25/09
to Beneteau Owners
Hey Bill, good advice, I did that before getting the gauge so I think
I thould be ok, the mast is straight but I'll also confirm that before
setting the proper tension. I won't be able to get to the second
spreader today I can't get them tension tested but last time I got the
mast straight so doing that should be easy when I have a helper.
thanks !
> >http://www.flickr.com/gift/-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
I thould be ok, the mast is straight but I'll also confirm that before
setting the proper tension. I won't be able to get to the second
spreader today I can't get them tension tested but last time I got the
mast straight so doing that should be easy when I have a helper.
thanks !
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Neal Lindeman
Jan 25, 2009, 12:09:13 PM1/25/09
to benetea...@googlegroups.com
How did you order the gauge? I see no order page on their site. Did you email the order? Are their proces in USD or kroners? I also like the looks of their SureClips to fasten the turnbuckles
Neal Lindeman
> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:21:19 -0800
Neal Lindeman
> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:21:19 -0800
> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rig tuning for upwind performance on a 361
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