1994 Oceanis 351 VHF Coaxial Cable in Mast

[allendick]

I don't know if this would be a factory installation or installed on commissioning but I am contemplating changing the VHF cable.  My VHF reception has been deteriorating and I tried a different radio and changed the antenna so the only remaining suspect is the coax.

I have to send a kid up the mast at least once to see if we can pull it up and down, then buy the coax and send him up again to pull it through with the old cable.

What would be helpful is to know in advance the odds that the cable is free to run up and down or likely to be bound with ties in the mast or encounter restrictions when being pulled though as there will be bulge where the cables join. 

Ideally I would have the cable made up with connectors in advance rather than putting the connectors on after installation.  Hopefully the top end connector could be pre-installed and we would pull the coax up rather than down.

Of course I do not know the entire history of the boat so if the mast ahs been down maybe something non-standard has been done since commissioning.

Any shared experience would be appreciated.

[Mark J Wilme]

In my experience and ymmv coax for antennas are installed by the dealer and are not part of the oem install.

I would be surprised if you can get the connector through the mast hole or deck hole, especially with grommet or similar in place.  I think the masthead connector is the hardest to install in field so I would do that one first. Feed the coax in from the top of mast, pulling through the mast exit etc and doing the field install at deck level. I assume to facilitate mast removal you are going to have  a field connection at the mast base. This must be  waterproof type of the highest level, in fact, even the coax inside the mast should be of a waterproof rating. Given the effort to replace coax I believe it makes sense to buy the best cable you can get, you don't want to be doing it again in 5 years time.

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[alle...@gmail.com]

Thanks. That helps a lot. I have assisted in dropping masts a few times but not been involved in the connections at the base so I am having trouble visualising.

You mention a field connection at the base. Without going to the mast and looking right now, is that in the mast? Is it accessible? Could that be the issue rather than the coax itself? That makes sense to me especially in regard your mention of waterproofing.

[Mark J Wilme]

I've seen it done a couple of ways, others may have seen different

There is a coax wire connection coming out of the deck at the mast base through a waterproof grommet. It terminates in a M or F coax connection (don't recall which) with an outside threaded sleeve on it. The other coax wire comes down the inside of the mast and out of the mast wall via a grommet or similar. There is a "tail" here of a few inches, maybe a foot. It terminates in a corresponding F or M coax connection with the appropriate threaded connection. When the mast is stepped the two ends are connected and the threaded sleeve holds them tight. Often I have seen these wrapped in tape to keep water out but sometimes this does the opposite and keeps water in.

The variation on this option is that instead of having a coax wire with an end connection on it at the deck level there is a dedicated fitting that is attached to the deck and made weather tight. Often it has multiple connections on it for mast lights, vhf, radar etc. The same coax wires come out of the mast but they connect to this fitting. Best analogy I can think of is that it like the back of your DVD player but in a weatherproof form fitted to the boat deck.

The other variation I have seen was on an older Catalina and I can't say if it was OEM or not, given the age of the boat I am thinking not. In this case the same coax wire and fitting came down the mast but there was a watertight seal on the boat deck and the entire mast coax wire with it's end fitting went inside the boat and the union was made inside the headliner of the boat, all you saw from the outside when fitted was the coax from the mast going into the boat deck through this grommeted fitting.

Others may have seen / know of alternatives

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[alle...@gmail.com]

Thanks again.

This very helpful and brings back my memory somewhat.

I'm thinking that the connector is the prime suspect. However if it did leak, then chances are water may have wicked up and down the coax depending on the type of coax. I'm not sure if it would be obvious and I am not sure what sort of tester could evaluate the coax.

Anyhow,that connector is now my prime suspect and that is where I'll start looking.

[Nuno P]

My main suggestion is first to buy a RG213 coaxial not RG58!

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[Mark J Wilme]

I think that part of the reason that there is such a long lenth of spare coax at the bottom of the mast is to serve as a sort of service loop. If you get corrosion inside the sheath you can cut back a few inches of coax to expose good conductors and fit a new connection. Also there are exterior grade connectors and there are non marine grade ones. I don't think the ones from Home Depot, Radio Shack or Tandy are designed for the harsh weather/salt conditions.

This is one case where I think you have to buy the good quality marine product. Others may have actual product/reseller/type recommendations. I have had good experience with FisheriesSupply in the past and have found products from the big box blue marine store (you know which one I mean) to be often (not always) of a lesser quality. I suspect they are specific items for that retailer that are built down to a price point,  YMMV

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[alle...@gmail.com]

Thanks everyone. I'm glad I asked and now I have a much better idea how to proceed. As for the quality of the coax and connectors I appreciate being reminded that marine service is different from terrestrial applications and will seek out appropriate parts.

[DAVID FLETCHER]

If it was me I would use RG214 ( tinned wire) or you can use LMR and get a little smaller size. LMR does bend as well. 

For a good  price contact Joel at

https://rfconnection.com/

They will install the pl259 ends

Good guys who know their stuff

Prices are very reasonable 

Fletch

Ps pulling in down the cable chase in the mast ( stepped) might be a bit of a challenge. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2022, at 9:23 AM, Nuno P <npne...@gmail.com> wrote:



My main suggestion is first to buy a RG213 coaxial not RG58!

allendick <alle...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia quarta, 12/01/2022 à(s) 12:48:

I don't know if this would be a factory installation or installed on commissioning but I am contemplating changing the VHF cable.  My VHF reception has been deteriorating and I tried a different radio and changed the antenna so the only remaining suspect is the coax.

I have to send a kid up the mast at least once to see if we can pull it up and down, then buy the coax and send him up again to pull it through with the old cable.

What would be helpful is to know in advance the odds that the cable is free to run up and down or likely to be bound with ties in the mast or encounter restrictions when being pulled though as there will be bulge where the cables join. 

Ideally I would have the cable made up with connectors in advance rather than putting the connectors on after installation.  Hopefully the top end connector could be pre-installed and we would pull the coax up rather than down.

Of course I do not know the entire history of the boat so if the mast ahs been down maybe something non-standard has been done since commissioning.

Any shared experience would be appreciated.

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[slam.1956]

I have a 2010 B34. I performed the same upgrade after I had the cable at the base of the mast break up due to internal corrosion. The grommet fitting into the cabin top allowed the cable to go in a little way to the connector inside the ceiling panel inside. I also ran RG213 as you are planning. The hole for the cable is not enough at the masthead, so you will need to do a new one, I decided to also replace the deck fitting with a new one as well (hole and fitting). Trying to fit the much larger waterproof gland would have required mounting it over the old one which already had four screw holes that would not be used.

In my case, I have a furling main which has limited space and conduits inside the front of the mast. this made feeding the old cable through impossible. The cable had already broken at the mast base and when I tried to pull it through at the top it caught on something and broke inside. So I now have a length of rotting coax inside the mast I can't remove. It also takes up space in one of the ducts which are already full of other cables. Lucky for me I also replaced my anemometer with a wireless one so was able to use the cable and conduit for that one instead. It was a really difficult job, I spent over 4 hrs at the top of the mast with tools replacement parts etc to do both tasks. I was lucky I had a friend down the base helping feed cable. If you send someone up the mast with a mast mate or similar with soft loops for your feet make sure they wear hard-soled shoes as this caused a lot of discomfort with soft-soled runners after a few hours.

Good luck

[Allen Dick]

Okay.  I wrote earlier before dawn and had not really looked at the
problem.  I went out later and took pictures and see that it is not only
the coax but other cables that are getting weathered. (I'm in Mexico).

It appears the the junction is in my headliner but I don't want to pull
it down now as I have guests coming tomorrow and we know how these
things go.  One thing leads to another, then another...

I'm assuming the cable with tarnished braid showing is the coax and that
water has wicked down to the connector and done damage. The good thing
is that I can likely cut off the damage above deck and make a new
connection there.  We will see.

What I am wondering now is how best to restore the covering on the other
cables.  The wires themselves are sound and the inner insulation is
intact and flexible as far as I can see.

Pictures are attached.

[Mark J Wilme]

Is that abrasion damage or UV damage?  Either way and regardless of whether you replace them or not I would get them wrapped/covered asap to stop the situation getting worse.    If you can disconnect the fittings in the cabin headliner and are therefore able to slide some tubular heat shrink wrap over them I would be tempted to try that. Just get a good quality one that is UV resistant, especially in Mexico

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[Allen Dick]

>  The grommet fitting into the cabin top allowed the cable to go in a
little way to the connector inside the ceiling panel inside.

> I also ran RG213 as you are planning. The hole for the cable is not
enough at the masthead, so you will need to do a new one, I decided to
also replace the deck fitting with a new one as well (hole and fitting).
Trying to fit the much larger waterproof gland would have required
mounting it over the old one which already had four screw holes that
would not be used.

Okay. Good to know. Are you saying that the coax is too fast for the
hole at the top?  If so, I might be better to stick with what I have,
especially if cutting the damaged section  off is practical.  What is
unknown is how far water may have travelled up the braid and if water
somehow penetrated the core from the connector below deck.  That remains
to be seen.

> In my case, I have a furling main which has limited space and
conduits inside the front of the mast.

So do I.

> this made feeding the old cable through impossible. < snip > If you

send someone up the mast with a mast mate or similar with soft loops for
your feet make sure they wear hard-soled shoes as this caused a lot of
discomfort with soft-soled runners after a few hours.

Thanks.  I have riggers to go up because I am too old and too fat tom
fly.  Four hours costs though.

Thanks for the tips.

[Allen Dick]

> Is that abrasion damage or UV damage?

Just UV.  The sun beats down here, literally.

> Either way and regardless of whether you replace them or not I would
get them wrapped/covered asap to stop the situation getting worse.

Agreed.

>  If you can disconnect the fittings in the cabin headliner and are
therefore able to slide some tubular heat shrink wrap over them I would
be tempted to try that. Just get a good quality one that is UV
resistant, especially in Mexico

I had not thought of sliding spaghetti up from below and that would be
best but the fittings would be a pain. I had thought of maybe rubber
boat paint seeing as I have a dinghy I am considering covering.  I
suppose Rescue Rape is another option.

I could also slit heat shrink or similar spaghetti and put sealer inside.

Thanks.

[slam.1956]

Yes the RG213 type of cable is much better quality but also significantly thicker (I think rg58 is like 4mm and rg213 is 10 or 11 mm). I initially hoped to install the new cable at the masthead into the same hole, but could not work out how to remove the old cable and feed the new one in the same spot.

The bit of cable at my mast base looked like yours where it broke, lots of corrosion evident, that's why it broke when I tried to pull it out.

[slam.1956]

Don't take the 4 hrs too hard, I didn't know what I was doing. I'm sure a rigger would not take as long.

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 9:00:30 AM UTC+11 allendick wrote:

[Allen Dick]

 > rg58 is like 4mm and rg213 is 10 or 11 mm

This measures almost exactly 10mm and is white so I assume it is marine
RG213.  That is what I have been advised to use to replace it but maybe
it can be salvaged by cutting the damaged end. We'll see.

> The bit of cable at my mast base looked like yours where it broke,
lots of corrosion evident, that's why it broke when I tried to pull it out.

Good to know.

Thanks.

[slam.1956]

Allen, I would think that any visible sign of corrosion of the core is a death knell for that cable. The performance of cable corroded like that is also likely to reduce the capability of your radio. The bit of mine that broke off was about half a meter long at the base and had visible damage well into the area that was still shielded externally. Its performance would be compromised if repaired.

[Jonathan Green]

I didn't have time to read thru all the other responses above but you no doubt got some great advice. When I replaced the mast on my 1996 Oceanis 351, I used RG-213 primarily because the ISAF Cat 1 regs required at the time (2012) not more than 40% power loss and my calculations for a ~60ft wire run from VHF to masthead antenna required that wire diameter to satisfy that requirement, which was vital as I was entering a race in 2013 and my boat had to meet Cat 1 regs. Best not to order it with the end pieces as you need to stuff the wire thru some rather small holes - no need to drill larger ones in your mast to accommodate the end pieces as that will just weaken the mast even more so. The tools required to attach the end pieces after running the wire are not that expensive.