Re: {Beneteau Owners} Steering Problems b361

[bjgr...@verizon.net]

May sound like a dumb question but have you investigated the possibility that the wheel lock may be racheting down and tightening the wheel? The other question I would ask is what happens after your done sailing and the boat is at rest. Does the wheel release? Regards Bruce ( Breezy 361 )

>From: chris walter <chris....@gmail.com>
>Date: 2007/03/30 Fri AM 06:20:38 CDT
>To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Steering Problems b361

>I own a 2003 b361.  My steering will become  stiff either when i sail for more than 7 hours downwind,  or the boat is powered over 3 hours.  I have had 3 yards look at it and they cant find what is wrong.  Beneteau told me that my bearing ( bushing ) needed to be honed out,  as the delrin ring swells a bit,   I had another yard look at the bushing and they told me it was too thin to hone out.   When sailing the Anegada passage last week,  the last 5 hours required both arms on the wheel to be able to turn it.   Im thinking of just having another yard haul the boat and put a new bearing on it,  and make sure they purchase one from Beneteau.   any thoughts or suggestions      thanks
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[chris walter]

yes i have checked not only the wheel lock,  but disconnected my linnear drive autopilot and it hasnt helped,  also used the emergency tiller,  and it was impossible to turn.  the next morning the wheel is considerably easier to turn although not as easy as it should be.  I also had my boat shipped to st thomas in october on dockwise transport.  The boat was out of the water for the 1 week trip and when I powered it off the dyt vessel,  the steering was so stiff  I could barely turn it.   This led me to believe that the bushing would swell when heated,  and hence the need for honing.   however when i would sail downwind even overnight the steering would stiffen, which leads me to believe that the bearing is too lose, allowing too much flexing, and hence needs to be replaced.

[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Chris

            Just some thoughts that you may have already checked, but I wanted to make sure you considered other possibilities.

 

The obvious would be something getting caught near the steering cables or even possibly a problem with the steering pulleys themselves within the system but I am sure you have already looked around several times, that would be way to easy.

 

The 473 rudder “bearing” is nothing more than a “plastic” bushing that wraps around the OD surface of the rudder post. This whole “bearing” is bonded into the hull with an adhesive silicone or something similar, I don’t recall the actual product recommended. We had a question about the rudder on our 473 the first year and I asked Beneteau service for a drawing of the rudder and composite rudder post as an assembly. After lots of prodding, they actually sent me a procedure sheet showing how to install these parts. I would send a copy of it to you, but it is in the Beneteau manuals onboard the boat 200 miles away. I would expect that Beneteau is doing something very similar on the 361 rudder assembly.

 

There are no moving parts to lube on the rudder post or the bearings as I understand it. What troubles me with your description is that the problem seems to go away when left for a period of time, like over night. You also mention it being more of a problem when sailing down wind, especially after 7 hours or so, which you wouldn’t think should have any effect as far as pressure on the steering system goes. That pressure should be about the same at the start of your sail as it is at the end of the day unless something is moving.

 

If the boat was transported by ship, that may be something to explore for a possible explanation to the rudder/steering problem. Has there been any indication that the rudder was hit during that loading or unloading process?? I have seen rudders with a fairly small “ding” at the bottom edge of the rudder that caused these kinds of troubles before. What you describe is that the rudder post is very tight within the “plastic” bushing at the bottom of the hull.

 

I am not clear if you have had the boat hauled at this point for checking the rudder and steering system, but if you have not done that yet it sounds like you should go ahead and make plans to do so. What you describe makes me feel that the rudder post is out of alignment within its “bearings” or the bearings are just very tight to the rudder post. It definitely sounds to me like you should plan to haul the boat and do a good inspection of all of the components. As I am sure you understand, with the steering cables and autopilot disconnected you should be able to freely turn the rudder left and right. If you can’t do that, there has to be a tight problem in the bearing surfaces to the fit of the rudder post or possibly something is rubbing hard on the quadrant. You would think that normal use of the boat would “hone” the lower bearing and slowly improve the condition if that were the only cause as was suggested by Beneteau.

 

Let us know how you make out. I will be curious to hear what you find wrong.

 

Good luck

 

Rick Donovan

Beneteau 473

Turn the Page

 

 

[chris walter]

thanks allot rick,  i do have that plastic bearing as you have.   beneteau  said it probably swelled and it would need to be honed out,  however  when i asked a yard to do that,  they told me it was already fairly thin, and they didn't feel comfortable doing so.  My autopilot stopped working in st. martin, and the technician who came out said the drive stop happened because my steering was way too tight,  when i told him about my swelling theory,  he said it is probably the opposite, that the bearing is too loose, and when that happens the rudder flexes more when you are running downwind,  hence my confusion.   i did have the same problem all summer long in buzzards bay even before the boat was shipped to st Thomas.    when i had the boat hauled by mcdougals last summer the steering and rudder were as smooth as glass so they couldn't figure it out either.    just don't know how to proceed....

[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Chris

I see it as a good sign that the problem was there when you were at home and that fact would seem to indicate that nothing happened during shipping to cause this.

           

They are correct, the plastic is thin. I would estimate something like .030 - .040”, although I haven’t measured it. I don’t know how you would use a “hone” to fix this. I suspect that the rudder is out of alignment and is binding or there is corrosion on the rudder post that is the cause of your troubles. I don’t know how you are going to prove it one way or the other without hauling the boat somewhere by someone you trust for their opinions and quality of work.

 

Our rudder, when the boat is out and on stands for the winter, moves side to side freely within the lower bushing. I have always had a concern about this side motion and this play is the reason I chased Beneteau in the first season looking for answers while the boat was still under warranty. They told me (and I have looked at several other 473’s to verify) that “some” play is to be expected. The trick is to get them to tell you what is normal “play” in their opinion and I never did get them to answer that question for me. Our motion when measured at the bottom of the rudder is just about 3/8 - 7/16”.  When you hold the rudder to one side with pressure of your hand, set zero on your ruler and lightly push to the opposite side, just the free motion. I check this each season after hauling out and don’t think ours has changed at all from what I can measure over 5 seasons.

 

I will say that under just the right power reaching conditions I also feel some “stickiness” for lack of a better way to describe the feeling in our steering. At those times it takes some real concentration to steer a straight course but I don’t feel it is any more than a slight binding of the composite rudder post within the lower bushing and quite possibly is being caused by the composite rudder post flexing under the load. A fairly small change in sail area, sail trim or true wind angle will often affect our little problem and relieve the stickiness.

[sl...@comcast.net]

Chris,

 

You mentioned Anegada Passage. If you are in the BVIs you may want to stop by the Moorings base for advice. They have a sizeable fleet of 361's and have probably seen everything.

 

Steve

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "chris walter" <chris....@gmail.com>
thanks allot rick,  i do have that plastic bearing as you have.   beneteau  said it probably swelled and it would need to be honed out,  however  when i asked a yard to do that,  they told me it was already fairly thin, and they didn't feel comfortable doing so.  My autopilot stopped working in st. martin, and the technician who came out said the drive stop happened because my steering was way too tight,  when i told him about my swelling theory,  he said it is probably the opposite, that the bearing is too loose, and when that happens the rudder flexes more when you are running downwind,  hence my confusion.   i did have the same problem all summer long in buzzards bay even before the boat was shipped to st Thomas. &nbs p;  when i had the boat hauled by mcdougals last summer the steering and rudder were as smooth as glass so they couldn't figure it out either.    just don't know how to proceed....

On 3/30/07, Richard Donovan Jr. <sailo...@verizon.net> wrote:

            Chris

            Just some thoughts that you may have already checked, but I wanted to make sure you considered other possibilities.

 

The obvious would be something getting caught near the steering cables or even possibly a problem with the steering pulleys themselves within the system but I am sure you have already looked around several times, that would be way to easy.

 

The 473 rudder "bearing" is nothing more than a "plastic" bushing that wraps around the OD surface of the rudder post. This whole "bearing" is bonded into the hull with an adhesive silicone or something similar, I don't recall the actual product recommended. We had a question about the rudder on our 473 the first year and I asked Beneteau service for a drawing of the rudder and composite rudder post as an assembly. After lots of prodding, they actually sent me a procedure sheet showing how to install these parts. I would send a copy of it to you, but it is in the Beneteau manuals onboard the boat 200 miles away. I would expect that Beneteau is doing something very similar on the 361 rudder assembly.

 

There are no moving parts to lube on the rudder post or the bearings as I understand it. What troubles me with your description is that the problem seems to go away when left for a period of time, like over night. You also mention it being more of a problem when sailing down wind, especially after 7 hours or so, which you wouldn't think should have any effect as far as pressure on the steering system goes. That pressure should be about the same at the start of your sail as it is at the end of the day unless something is moving.

 

If the boat was transported by ship, that may be something to explore for a possible explanation to the rudder/steering problem. Has there been any indication that the rudder was hit during that loading or unloading process?? I have seen rudders with a fairly small "ding" at the bottom edge of the rudder that caused these kinds of troubles before. What you describe is that the rudder post is very tight within the "plastic" bushing at the bottom of the hull.

 

I am not clear if you have had the boat hauled at this point for checking the rudder and steering system, but if you have not done that yet it sounds like you should go ahead and make plans to do so. What you describe makes me feel that the rudder post is out of alignment within its "bearings" or the bearings are just very tight to the rudder post. It definitely sounds to me like you should plan to haul the boat and do a good inspection of all of the components. As I am sure you understand, with the steering cables and autopilot disconnected you should be able to freely turn the rudder left and right. If you can't do that, there has to be a tight problem in the bearing surfaces to the fit of the rudder post or possibly something is rubbing hard on the quadrant. You would think that normal use of the boat would "hone" the lower bearing and slowly improve th e condition if that were the only cause as was suggested by Beneteau.

 

Let us know how you make out. I will be curious to hear what you find wrong.

 

Good luck

 

Rick Donovan

[Edward English]

You are suffering the same problem that I have on my 36.7. In my
case, Beneteau has upgraded the bearing on the new boats to a needle
bearing made by PYI that can be put into my same bearing race. After
this sticking starts, there is no solution but to replace at least
the delrin bushing. If your problem is also corrosion in the race
(which I also have), you need to have it taken out and sealed before
putting the new bushing into the bearing race. What happens in this
case is that the corrosion distorts the bushing, causing a problem.
Finally, after you have renewed things, periodically take some water
and shoot it down the shaft to help keep the corrosion for building
up. At least have the rudder dropped once a year during a haul out to
clean out the area.
Ed
OBS

[rlojmo]

Anyone have this problem with B331? I believe I have the same problem
but I have only owned the boat for a few months so I am not sure.

Also does anyoen know the rudder post dimension?

Bob

On Mar 30, 11:56 am, Edward English <ejsai...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> You are suffering the same problem that I have on my 36.7. In my
> case, Beneteau has upgraded the bearing on the new boats to a needle
> bearing made by PYI that can be put into my same bearing race. After
> this sticking starts, there is no solution but to replace at least
> the delrin bushing. If your problem is also corrosion in the race
> (which I also have), you need to have it taken out and sealed before
> putting the new bushing into the bearing race. What happens in this
> case is that the corrosion distorts the bushing, causing a problem.
> Finally, after you have renewed things, periodically take some water
> and shoot it down the shaft to help keep the corrosion for building
> up. At least have the rudder dropped once a year during a haul out to
> clean out the area.
> Ed
> OBS

> On Mar 30, 2007, at 5:01 AM, <bjgris...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > May sound like a dumb question but have you investigated the
> > possibility that the wheel lock may be racheting down and
> > tightening the wheel? The other question I would ask is what
> > happens after your done sailing and the boat is at rest. Does the
> > wheel release? Regards Bruce ( Breezy 361 )
>

[AShe...@aol.com]

Chris

Rick is right. That rudder should turn freely when you haul the boat out.

In my opinion you should be able to  turn it by holding the rudder with two hands and twisting it back and forth even if the auto pilot and the steering cables are connected.

When the boat is out of the water you should have a certain amount of play on the rudder something like a 1/4" at the bottom tip of the rudder

I have a 473 as well. I had a problem with rudder being too loose and the play at the bottom was almost 3/4"

Rick send me pictures and instructions he got from Beneteau I disassembled the rudder and pulled it out.

There is a collar at the base of the post that fits into a sleeve at the bottom of the boat.

That collar could be on the post with too much adhesive, expanding it, thus making a tight fit in the sleeve.

In my case the collar was too loose in the sleeve. I took that collar out, cleaned the post and added more adhesive, making the collar wider in diameter thus reducing the space in the sleeve.

I suspect that the collar in your situation is very tight in the sleeve and possibly needs to be removed and reinstalled with less Adhesive

By the way. The rudder post is made of very hard plastic material not metal. When the rudder bends due to grounding or an accident, the post goes back to it's original shape and does not stay bent

Let us know how it turned out

 

Regards

Ami B473

Glen Cove, NY

---

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Capt Brian]

On my OC400 the upper bushing is delrin and the lower is copper with a
teflon coating (I bought them a couple of years ago. spensive!). It
is held in place with 5230 adhesive.

I'll email the repair sheet I received from Beneteau.

It my also be the bearing at the wheel. If yours is a Whitlock you
can remove and relace that bearing. You need to disconnect all
components. It could be wheel bearing, pulleys, rudder bearings. You
really can't say it's the rudder until you do this step.

Capt Brian

> ************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

[Jeffrey]

Brian -- I would appreciate if you could email us a copy of that repair
sheet... we too have an Oc-400

Thanks,

Fair Winds & Safe Sailing

Jeffrey J. Schwartz
Mystiko

[chris walter]

thanks brian  my email adress is  chris....@gmail.com    i did talk to joe foss at beneteau on friday,  he wasnt sure if my bearing was too loose, or too tight,  he suggested i have it hauled out ( for the third time now ) by tortola yacht services or virgin gorda yacht harbor in order to fix it

[chris walter]

rick   thanks for your comments.   the boatyard in tortola just called and said that my rudder tube was slightly bent at the top and at the bottom and that the bottom bearing needed replacing,  im wondering if the bottom bearing caused the mis-alignment of the rudder stock in the rudder tube...

On 3/30/07, Richard Donovan Jr. <sailo...@verizon.net> wrote: