Swing keel models

[Brian Mikiten]

I was looking at newer model B's and found one in Florida (a 311) with
a swing keel and dual rudders. Pretty cool for shallow waters around
where I sail. Does B make any other models (First?) with this option?
I have a F305 with the 5'6" draft that is starting to hit bottom in
the bay during low tides - not fun.

Brian

[Ted Weitz]

I have a 323 with swing keel and dual rudders, and it is also an option on the 343.  I am pretty certain it was also available on predecessor models, including the 311 and 331, though its not very common.  We love the benefit we get from the swing keel, and also find that the boat both sails and tracks very well even with the keel up.  The two downsides are the fact that it takes 100 manual turns to raise or lower the keel -- fortunately my wife's job most of the time -- and it is always one more thing to go wrong, though we have had absolutely no problem in the two seasons we have the boat.

Ted Weitz
B323 Gossamer Wings
East Hampton, NY

--
Ted Weitz
tm...@columbia.edu

[david grove]

Brian

I have a 2007 323 with the swing keel and twin rudders.  B also makes the 343 with the same option.  That is it for the current model lineup.  As with most models, the advertised draft is not accurate.  It would not make a good First model due to the compromise of the keel - although twin angled rudders work great when healed.

B also built the 311 and 331 with the same configuration.  I also saw an ad for a 361 with the same configuration, but I am not 100% sure if that is accurate.

Jenneau also built a 37 with the same keel rudder system.  That was a very nice boat judging by the pictures I have from a boat in Europe.  Although I do not believe any were ever imported to the US.  It also built the 32 with a twin rudder option, but its keel was completely different.  It consisted of 2 bilge keels and a centerboard; however, I could never figure out if board system out. 

I have researched this issue for at least 5 years.  If you have any other questions, I will try to help.

David

[david grove]

Ted:

As you will see in my other post we have an 07 323.  Our hull is #188, what is your hull number as I know there was another built at the same time as ours.

David
Temptress
Madison, WI

[Ted Weitz]

We got ours delivered in early 2006, so it was not built at the same time.  Love the boat, though.  What do you do for maintenance?  I got the attached two docs from a website, but they are not official.

--
Ted Weitz
tm...@columbia.edu

[david grove]

If your asking about maintenance to the keel/centerboard, all I have done so far is to grease the keel lifting screw assembly twice a year.  Pretty straight forward. I have no idea how to remove the board for inspection.  I will review your documents for a little insight.

For greasing, I don't do it the way your doc. reads.  I do it while it is on the trailer, which can also be done while she is on the hard (or the water if you have a nice shallow sandy area and you anchor her from moving on a calm day).  I simply crank down the board, as I do this the crank assembly simply rises out of the table.  I go all the way up, and the simply apply waterproof grease on everything I can reach.  I then crank it back up and down a couple of times, and apply more grease as needed, until I am sure that it is well lubed. More can't hurt here. 

David

[doitdifferently]

Brian,

I completely empathise. Have you considered a fixed shoal draft
keel. Our First 36s7 draws 4' 10" and sails extremely well. I think
it is a great compromise. We are now looking for a larger boat to go
cruising... and we have had to rule out so many boats that draw way
too much water. Also were looking seriously at swing keels on older
boats like Bristol 41.1 and have learned of costly and troubling
incidents with the keel.

Keep us posted.

Best,

James

[Brian Mikiten]

It appears that 311's with the swing keel are pretty common. I found
two available with only a quick review. I wonder how they perform
compared to a First series boat.

Brian

[david grove]

Brian:

I can't tell if you were asking an actual question about the comparison or simply thinking out loud.  However, since I am bored because I the water we have outside right now is frozen, I thought I would provide you might thoughts/opinion.

The simple answer is that it won't.  There is no substitute for draft and ballast down low.  The swing keel really only has the draft, but the ballast is up high.

If you look at the keel configuration on the swing keel models you will notice that keel houses the board.  In order to do so, the keel is extremely long for and aft (the chord).  It is also where all the majority of the ballast is located as the board can not be anywhere as heavy as the keel.  Therefore, you have a long, shallow keel, with the ballast up high c/g wise relative to a normal keel that has the ballast lower in the water, like the First.

The board adds the draft, which is important as well, and a little bit of ballast lower.  However, since the majority of the ballast is in the keel housing and not the board, it really only adds to the lateral resistance for tracking purposes, but does little for the stiffness (or tenderness) of the boat.  Does this make sense?  In addition, when sailing with the board down it is also important to understand the concept of laminar flow - or the smooth flow of water over both sides of the board.  It is relatively easy to stall (cavitation on the windward side of the board) a centerboard compared to a regular keel.  A stalled board, is like a stalled skeg on a windsurfer or small dinghy.  The boat will simply slide to leeward and pointing capabilities are out the window.  Not to mention the speed of the vessel is just destroyed.  It is easy enough to reconnect the water flow, but one has to recognize it is occurring.

In addition, since the board has to exit the keel cavity to add draft, the keel cavity ends up with an a gap/void where the board was stored in the up position.  This creates drag that is not present on any fixed keel boat.  Drag is never good.

In summary, I have been happy with the trade off, shallow water capabilities versus stiffness.   It is also possible to sail the boat with the board up, really adding to its shallow water capabilities.   Plus, I really like the twin rudders for sailing (although forget prop wash with the prop when docking).

It you are interested in shallow water capabilities, both in access or in sailing capabilities, I would encourage you to consider it (but be forewarned that more maintenance is definitely involved).  But understand that it can not match a fixed keel boat as the drag is much different, the c/g is never the same and that boat for boat the swing keel will be heavier than a regular keel boat as the ballast is higher so it has to be heavier for righting effort to equal the lower ballast c/g of the First.

David Grove
Madison, WI
Temptress
B323-188

[Brian Mikiten]

David -

  I certainly appreciate the thoughts! I was thinking about this on the way home today so your timing is perfect. I was also worried about the location of the mass and the affect on the sailing capabilities. My F305 really points well and I'm so used to it now that when I sail a different boat, I can really tell what I'm missing. 

  What can you tell me about the maintenance aspect?  I've heard about the 100 turn crank to get the board up and potential leaks.

Thanks

Brian

[david grove]

Brian,

I really don't think there is too much difference in pointing abilities.  The draft and extra foil surface area developing lift allow s it to point well.  Instead, I was trying to get across that it will be a more tender boat, not as stiff, and it will have increased drag, both of which will affect performance.

As far as water leakage, I really have not heard about any issues with this. My lifting mechanism is well encasulpated in a fiberglass "standing pipe", just an area of glass that is well above the water line.  The area at the hull joint is well glassed and I don't see this as an issue. 

The 100 turns is not a big issue for wife, crew or me.  I just look at it as exercise, which we all could probably use more of in our lives.  Plus down is easy, up is the only issue.  Keeping it well greased is really important and makes the up part much easier.  I usually grease it twice a year.  Once in the spring, once in the fall.

I think the bigger maintenance will most likely will be in the area of the pivot pin and also any wear of the epoxy coating that protects the keel and board from rust as the board goes up and down.  I don't have any firm answers on these issues as the manuals are of absolutely no help (am I the only one who thinks the B manuals are written for a first grader?), just a speculation that at some point in time I will need to figure it - which will include figuring out how to drop the board. 

David

[Ted Weitz]

We have certainly seen no evidence of water leakage, and, while I don't race, my sense is that it both points and moves pretty well.  I would say that it is a bit more tender than a deeper keel, but nothing unmanageable.  One thing I like about the twin rudders is that as the boat heels, the leeward rudder digs deeper and more perpendicular to the water surface, so the control remains excellent.  I also agree that prop wash under power is quite different, but its just something to get accustomed to, and is fine once you are used to it.

Attached are a couple of pictures of the hul and rudders when the boat was originally delivered.

Ted Weitz
B323 "Goassamer Wings"
East Hampton, NY

--
Ted Weitz
tm...@columbia.edu