Putting in gear while sailing

[Scott]

How many of you out there put the transmisison in reverse or forward when sailing?

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[John Peterson]

I do briefly to stop the prop from auto rotation but I have a folding prop so once the prop folds, I often put the shifter back into neutral.

 

John Peterson

Charrette

First 38

 

---

[AShe...@aol.com]

I have a Gori 3 blade folding prop I always put it in reverse while sailing.

It keeps it from spinning and keeps it folded

Ami

B473

Glen Cove, NY

[Ski...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/12/2006 9:15:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ipac...@yahoo.com writes:

How many of you out there put the transmisison in reverse or forward when sailing?

---

I have a Yanmar 100 turbo charged engine.  I do put it in forward while under sail. Dave, Nereus V

[Cappie30]

Scott, I for one <G> always sail underway with the transmission shifter in Reverse when the engine is off.   

 

Sailing with the transmission in Forward can lead to unnecessary wear of the shifter cone and forward large gear mating surfaces. In Forward the shifter spring tends to push the mating surface of the large gear and the drive cone together. 

 

Operating in Neutral imposes unnecessry wear on the cutlass bearing and stuffing box, and there is always a possibility that the oil will not reach the bearings of the two large gears that remain in motion while in Neutral.

 

In Reverse the clutch connection is tighter and differential movement between the drive cone and mating surface of the reverse large gear is positively prevented.     The servo tendencies of the spiral splines tighten the contact between the drive cone and the large reverse gear, preventing movement.  

 

This is brief, but I believe sailing underway with the shifter in Reverse creates the least possible wear on integral engine components, shaft, cutlass bearing, and stuffing box.         Cappie

----- Original Message -----

From: Scott

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:15 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Putting in gear while sailing

[degen]

You sound like a man who knows his gears.  And yet...if the make of transmission, and not the engine, is the guide to follow, the manual for my earlier 38-S specified reverse for locking the Gori prop; the manual for my current 411 (#014) specifies a forward lock on the Flex-O-Fold prop.  Five years on the First and eight more on Anthem have convinced me of the worth of following instructions. Good Sailing. Dave Egen   -------Original Message-------

[Scott]

Thanks for the info - I do not have a folding prop on my 06 Beneteau 343

Cappie30 <Capp...@Comcast.net> wrote:

Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Rick Lucas]

We pop ours into reverse to stop the prop from spinning and to get it to feather (MaxProp). Then we put the transmission into neutral.

 

If you are looking for recommendations for what you should do, check with the manufacturer of your transmission. Some can spin while sailing without damage. Others could be damaged unless they are locked off. Again, the best source of this info is your transmission manufacturer, which may be the same as the engine manufacturer, but not always. Most manuals should give you a recommendation.

 

Rick L

[b393capt]

I put in reverse

[Bill Jarvis]

Reverse, always.

 

Bill

----- Original Message -----

From: Scott

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:15 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Putting in gear while sailing

[Uwe Mewes]

Always in reverse when sailing (Volvo M2002). When racing - the shaft has a marke which allows me to align the shaft always to the same position. I prefer the blades from folding prop vertical while in rest position.

 

            Uwe Mewes

                F305

        Heaven Can Wait

   

----- Original Message -----

From: Scott

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:15 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Putting in gear while sailing

[Rick Nordby]

I have a Volvo 2003T and put mine in reverse as per the directions.

--------------------
Rick Nordby
Shorecrest High School
rick....@shorelineschools.org
http://schools.shorelineschools.org/shorecrest/industrial_tech/default.php

----- Original Message -----

From: Scott

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 6:15 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Putting in gear while sailing

[Charlie Kilo]

I put mine in reverse (2 blade Gori) to get the shaft to stop turning.  Then I put back in Neutral. 

 

If I had a fixed prop, I'd leave it in gear, but with the folding prop, once the shaft is stopped, it doesn't start spinning again. 

 

This also helps to ensure that the motor is still in neutral once I re-start the engine.

Cheers,

Colin

[Edward Butt]

Reverse to prevent autorotation.

[Chris C. Hunsicker]

I am trying to determine how much difference the type of prop makes in all of this.  I am new to inboard diesel motors. I have a 311 with 18 HP Yanmar with standard 2 blade fixed prop.  I have been unable to find suggestions in the manual as yet.

 

From the postings it seems I should be shifting into reverse when sailing?

 

Thanks,

Chris Hunsicker

[Cappie30]

Chris, IMHO especially with an 18hp Yanmar and a fixed prop you should be sailing with the shifter in the reverse position.  I will contact you offlist..   Cappie

[Bill Jarvis]

Chris,

 

Moving into reverse is always the safest thing to do. If left in neutral the water flowing by the prop will make it spin. That is not good for some transmissions. If left in forward again the blades will try to spin and drive the engine and this can cause transmission problems with some units.

 

Over the years this topic has come up quite regularly and always brings out many different opinions particularly about which is faster, to spin or to lock. The ultimate answer is always to replace that fixed prop with a folding or feathering prop. This then starts the famous prop wars.

 

Are you ready?

 

Bill

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris C. Hunsicker

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:42 AM

[Dl...@aol.com]

In a message dated 14/03/2006 12:54:15 GMT Standard Time, bja...@coastalnet.com writes:

Chris,

 

Moving into reverse is always the safest thing to do. If left in neutral the water flowing by the prop will make it spin. That is not good for some transmissions. If left in forward again the blades will try to spin and drive the engine and this can cause transmission problems with some units.

 

Over the years this topic has come up quite regularly and always brings out many different opinions particularly about which is faster, to spin or to lock. The ultimate answer is always to replace that fixed prop with a folding or feathering prop. This then starts the famous prop wars.

 

Are you ready?

 

Bill

He he - Well when we are in a hurry and want to sail as fast as possible i let the prop spin it is worth about a knot to a knot and a half on our Oceanis 461 with a three bladed fixed prop.  But generally i leave it in reverse. not for any deeply held conviction re gear box wear stuffing box wear or anything like that but just because i like the silence. Considering a Kiwi prop but as the boat is also chartered out just want to keep things simple at the mo - love the Max Prop but it is a PITA to get pitched correctly and yes i have been there done that - love the Streamline stainless steel one too but i think the Kiwi one has a lot going for it and not a fan of the Brunton AutoProp.  Kevlar body suit on now.

 

regards

 

David

[Ron]

 I have the 42cc and checked with a Yanmar dealer as what to do when sailing. He took the transmission data and checked up the chain. The result was to leave it in neutral and let the prop spin. In forward there is wear as well as in reverse. Recommendation is to check with the transmission manufacturer.

 

Ron Witt

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris C. Hunsicker

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:42 AM

[Ivars]

End all the noise and  drag....get a folding prop.   It is the best bang for your money that you can spend to enhance your total boating experience.

[Noble, Milner E.]

I sound like a stuck record on this, but Ivars "converted" me years ago -- one of the best things I have done for the boat.

--Milner

[John Mundt]

Although it is mentioned earlier, sometimes the folding prop doesn't fold.  I have a 3 blade folding prop and while most of the time it does fold, I sometimes have to pop it into reverse to fold it.  I also try very hard to remember to put it back into neutral right away before I end up starting the engine in gear hours later.

John

[Chris C. Hunsicker]

Bill,

 

No, I have already witnessed a prop wars skirmish and I don't want to start another.  At this point I am into comfort and enjoyment in our sailing.  Performance has not been important, although we all know how things tend to change.  At any rate, as I observed some of the previous prop wars I thought I was neutral (I thought it was all about performance) only to find once again how much I don't know.  I sure appreciate this forum to help me learn more.

 

It looks like I shall have to put a folding prop on the list for our next haul out which is scheduled for next fall.  In the meantime the consensus sure seems to be putting the shifter in reverse.  I would have never thought of doing this.

 

Thanks to all for the input,

[Cappie30]

Interesting Ron, the detailed information I have from Yanmar concludes that Reverse is the recommended gear for sailing with the auxillary diesel engine off. 

 

  There may never be a definitive answer to this perennial question <G>, but Reverse is my choice.  I am faxing the pages to Chris Hunsicker, as he generated this interesting and important thread.          Regards,  Cappie 

[dl...@aol.com]

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris C. Hunsicker <ch...@islandviewbuilders.com>
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:01:57 -0600
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

Bill,

<BIG SNIP> . In the meantime the consensus sure seems to be putting

the shifter in reverse. I would have never thought of doing this.

forget consensus - a majority never made anything correct - find out
what your gearbox maker suggests

regards

David

[dl...@aol.com]

-----Original Message-----
From: Cappie30 <Capp...@Comcast.net>
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 20:21:22 -0500
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

Interesting Ron, the detailed information I have from Yanmar concludes
that Reverse is the recommended gear for sailing with the auxillary
diesel engine off.

There may never be a definitive answer to this perennial question <G>,
but Reverse is my choice. I am faxing the pages to Chris Hunsicker, as
he generated this interesting and important thread. Regards, Cappie

of course there is a definitive answer - for what is best for the
gearbox - the one that the gearbox manufacture recommends

then there are few a less definitive ones that come down to personal
choice boat speed noise and wear issues

leaving the gearbox in reverse - can cause - and has caused - serious
engine damage when surfing - as the prop even folding and feathering
ones can turn the engine in reverse draw up water into the cylinders
and bend the con rods when the engine hydraulics.

regards

David

[Michael Edwards]

I have an autoProp fitted to my Yanmar Sail Drive. I used to place the drive lever into neutral and listen to the Autoprop Spinning during the times I was sailing. I asked AutProp what to Do they said keep the lever in forward drive then turn the engine off. Doing this stops the whiring noise indicating the prop (when lever is in drive) stops turning. I then talked to Yanmar (they have a technical department near me) they said do not leave the lever in drive and then stop the engine as this damages the engine and sail drive over a period of time They recommended place lever into nuterual then turn off the engine. I now continue to use my AutoProp during sailing with lever in forward drive engine off. I have never tred putting the lever into reverse  

On Monday, March 13, 2006 12:15:10 PM UTC+10, Scott wrote:

How many of you out there put the transmisison in reverse or forward when sailing?

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[ume...@comcast.net]

I always let the engine cool down first for a couple of minutes and then cut it with shifter in neutral. Next the shifter gets moved to forward position (Gori 3 blade folding with overdrive). Some racer will than align the shaft manually to a specific low drag position.

 

       Uwe Mewes

            45f5

   Heaven Can Wait   

---

From: "Michael Edwards" <michael....@gmail.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Benetea...@googlegroups.com, ipac...@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:35:31 PM
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

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[Joker460]

Don't want to be a kill joy here but if you have a Yanmar engine, Yanmar has put out a directive.

 

Definitive answer from Yanmar on gear position while sailing..


Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission shifter must be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar’s Limited Warranty. Please instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the correct (Neutral) position for the marine gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller shaft not spin while sailing, either a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may be used. However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, installation, or operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service advisory “MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection” for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer Support representative.

It's your choice

 

Enjoy

On Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:15:10 PM UTC-4, Scott wrote:

[Mohammad Bayegan]

If you have a feathering or folding prop that does not spin while sailing what difference does it make.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Joker460

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Benetea...@googlegroups.com ; ipac...@yahoo.com

Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:00 AM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

--

[Captain Guy]

PLEASE EXPLAIN...

 

Why does keeping the shaft from spinning a bad thing?  If in neutral or fwd, it will spin for zillions of revs; how is that better than Reverse which keeps the shaft from moving at all.

 

I’ve heard some say that the torque on the internals of the tranny will break it?  Don’t see how.

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN...

 

Guy

O352#277

 

From: Michael Edwards

Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:35 PM

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Benetea...@googlegroups.com ; ipac...@yahoo.com

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

 

--

[Mohammad Bayegan]

Unnecessary ware and tear.

[Capt Guy]

what wear and tear...nothing is moving...  re-read questions

 

guy

[Ben Campbell]

In our case, if we put it in reverse while sailing, moving through the water puts enough force on the prop that we cannot get it back into neutral without starting the engine. Starting the engine in gear is something I'd rather avoid. I suspect that has something to do with Yanmar's statement on the matter.

Not to mention, I sail about a half knot faster with the (3 blade fixed) prop free spinning than with it locked.

[Terry Rushing]

My folding prop does not always fold in neutral and makes a noise indicating the shaft is rotating. If I shift into reverse the prop folds and I get the expected increase in speed. At least with a folding prop, I recommend shifting into reverse.

Sent from my iPhone

[Mohammad Bayegan]

When shaft turns it wears the seals. Maybe in short distances that is not much but it adds up.

[Captain Guy]

That is the point... Perhaps you did not read the question...

 

What is damaged by putting in Reverse and Stopping the shaft? ...

 

Nothing is moving, so no wear...

 

Is the torque on the tranny resisting the prop from turning gonna break it, I don’t think so.

 

Guy

[Mark J Wilme]

I had read once (I think) that if the tranny does turn and the engine is not running then there is some form of lubrication issue. I may have recalled incorrectly of course and it all depends on the exact model of engine and transmission I am sure.

Mark Wilme
Mark....@Gmail.com

+1 (508) 826 5607

www.linkedin.com/in/markwilme            

[dbg...@mindspring.com]

when any parts are moving there will be wear and heat... then there is the issue of lubrication, how is the transmission lubed ( pressure by oil pump or splash )...  does the transmission get its oil from the engine or does it have its' own gear lube and system... does the transmission use water to cool it...  there can be a lot issues to go wrong if a transmission is left to spin...  there will not be any wear or damage if the engine can be kept in gear and there is enough compression to to stop any shaft rotation....   ( a sign of low compression / worn engine could be that it will not stop the spinning when gear /  (not 100% accurate in all cases} )  

the noise from a spinning prop shaft is enough to drive anyone nuts, especially at night when trying to sleep... then there is the issue of slower boat speed from the drag...  a folding or feather prop does many things... it improves the sailing experience and most importantly  ENDS these BS discussions...   best bang for the buck spent on any sailboat

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark J Wilme
Sent: Apr 14, 2014 9:49 AM
To: beneteau-owners
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

I had read once (I think) that if the tranny does turn and the engine is
not running then there is some form of lubrication issue. I may have
recalled incorrectly of course and it all depends on the exact model of
engine and transmission I am sure.



Mark Wilme
Mark....@Gmail.com
+1 (508) 826 5607
www.linkedin.com/in/markwilme

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Captain Guy wrote:

> That is the point... Perhaps you did not read the question...
>
> What is damaged by putting in Reverse and Stopping the shaft? ...
>
> Nothing is moving, so no wear...
>
> Is the torque on the tranny resisting the prop from turning gonna break
> it, I don’t think so.
>
> Guy
>

> *From:* Mohammad Bayegan
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 13, 2014 11:54 PM
> *To:* benetea...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

>
> When shaft turns it wears the seals. Maybe in short distances that is
> not much but it adds up.
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Capt Guy
> *To:* benetea...@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 13, 2014 4:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

>
> what wear and tear...nothing is moving... re-read questions
>
> guy
>

> *From:* Mohammad Bayegan
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:22 PM
> *To:* benetea...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

>
> Unnecessary ware and tear.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Captain Guy
> *To:* benetea...@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2014 10:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

>
> PLEASE EXPLAIN...
>
> Why does keeping the shaft from spinning a bad thing? If in neutral or
> fwd, it will spin for zillions of revs; how is that better than Reverse
> which keeps the shaft from moving at all.
>
> I’ve heard some say that the torque on the internals of the tranny will
> break it? Don’t see how.
>
> PLEASE EXPLAIN...
>
> Guy
> O352#277
>

> *From:* Michael Edwards
> *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2014 10:35 PM
> *To:* benetea...@googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* Benetea...@googlegroups.com ; ipac...@yahoo.com
> *Subject:* {Beneteau Owners} Re: Putting in gear while sailing

>
> I have an autoProp fitted to my Yanmar Sail Drive. I used to place the
> drive lever into neutral and listen to the Autoprop Spinning during the
> times I was sailing. I asked AutProp what to Do they said keep the lever in
> forward drive then turn the engine off. Doing this stops the whiring noise
> indicating the prop (when lever is in drive) stops turning. I then talked
> to Yanmar (they have a technical department near me) they said do not leave
> the lever in drive and then stop the engine as this damages the engine and
> sail drive over a period of time They recommended place lever into nuterual
> then turn off the engine. I now continue to use my AutoProp during sailing
> with lever in forward drive engine off. I have never tred putting the lever
> into reverse
>
> On Monday, March 13, 2006 12:15:10 PM UTC+10, Scott wrote:
>>
>> How many of you out there put the transmisison in reverse or forward when
>> sailing?

>> ------------------------------
>> Yahoo! Mail
>> Use Photomailto share photos without annoying attachments.

[Captain Guy]

Geeze can’t you all read today...

 

The question is,  WHAT HARM EXACTLY IS THERE BY PUTTING IN REVERSE TO S T O P TURNING. 

 

No parts are moving (except the boat thru the water)... no turning shaft, no seals wear, no tranny lube, etc.

 

Yanmar says do not stop shaft by putting in gear as it will damage engine/tranny?  PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW?

 

Guy

[Jonathan B.]

One possible answer: torque.

The transmission system is a reduction gearset that takes the rapidly turning engine and reduces it to prop speed.  If the prop is engaged while not under power it is putting force into a very large gear, which then amplifies that force into smaller gears as it moves towards the engine.  The net result is that the small gears near the engine are under a very large amount of force (on an even smaller surface, since only 2-3 teeth are engaged at any one time).  Since they are not designed to absorb force from that direction, it could damage them.

The fact that there is "no motion" does not really matter.  Water moving over the blades of the propeller push on it (that is the force).  That force must go somewhere to be absorbed.

Caveat: I'm not a Yanmar dealer or service technician.  This all comes from the engineering degree (or what I remember of it).

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Mohammad Bayegan]

If you have a Max prop putting in reverse does not allow it to feather.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Captain Guy

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

[Captain Guy]

Thanks Jonathan,

 

So, it sounds like what you’re saying is the torque could shear a tooth. 

 

Can’t be that much torque... I can hold the shaft from spinning with my hand grasping the shaft.

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Guy

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[Joker460]

Jonathan is correct with the torque idea.

The yanmar transmission is really quite simple. The input shaft in the transmission is always running when the motor is running. 2  opposite bevel gears  engage the input shaft. These gears drive the output shaft by a shifting a cone clutch. When the shifter is moved to forward, the cone clutch moves into the forward beveled gear. when shifted into reverse it moves into the reverse beveled gear. When shifted into neutral the cone clutch moves between the 2 gears and no power is transmitted. If you shift with without slowing down the engine you damage the cone clutch by glazing it. 

Now when you shift the transmission into reverse or forward when sailing there is still a force created by the prop as it tries to turn the shaft. That turning force is damaging to the cone clutch if it isn't allowed to rotate. Mind you the damage is gradual. It will cost a whole lot of money to replace the cone clutch!

Hope that helps or may by more question

On Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:15:10 PM UTC-5, Scott wrote:

How many of you out there put the transmisison in reverse or forward when sailing?

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[Bligh]

Good point. Never thought about that.

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[Ben Campbell]

There's also a linear force pointing aft along the shaft. I don't know if that impacts anything (a bearing, maybe?), and you would have a similar force in reverse. But you don't typically run in reverse for hours at a time. The fact that drag on the rudder makes it hard to shift back to neutral suggests this force is not trivial.

[Jonathan B.]

It is easy to stop the blades with your hand.  That is what I would expect.  

You still have the same problem, though, which is the energy transmitted to the gears next to the motor.

For example, the average propeller speed is about 150 RPM.  The motor, on the other hand, will be rotating at about 2400 RPM.  To reduce from 2400 to 150 is a 16:1 ratio.  (These are just estimates, feel free to correct me on the exact numbers.  They should give you the overall idea.)  So, every time the blade spins once, the internal gear spins 16 times.

Counterintuitively, it is actually easier to stop the gears next to the motor, since the torque is reduced by 16 times.  But that isn't the problem here, as the transmission is not "free wheeling".  Why?  Because it is engaged to the motor, which very much doesn't want to move.

The gear next to the motor is very small (makes sense, right?  1/16 the size).  The motor doesn't want to turn.  The propeller does want to turn.  All that energy has to go somewhere (conservation of energy).  Somewhere, the weakest link of the engine (which I suspect is the smallest gear), will be where that energy escapes.  And next, you have an expensive trip to a repair shop.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Jonathan B.]

I should correct myself on one item.  The blade can be spun by hand "while in neutral".  I strongly doubt you can turn that blade while the engine is in gear but not running.  

Cheers,

Jonathan