Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

[dansk]

All,

I wonder if I could get an opinion on how the B's handle heavy winds.
This is our first year with a B331 and find in 20 plus she has a
tendency to round up in the wind and the helm becomes unresponsive.
Seems one has to be careful to reef early with this boat. What are
other's experience? Is there advice on how to judge the best sail plan
in 15 plus winds. How do these boats compare to others in this
respect?

Thanks.

Bob

[Denny Wertheimer]

the following is not precise but a good example

since windspeed is exponetial. the speed squared times some constant. if the constant were one, the diffence in windspeed from 19kkt to 20 knots would be 39 poinds of pressure per sg foot.
reef early and often. liken it to voting in chicago.

on our 42 we would have two in the head sail and 2 in the main

--
Denny Wertheimer


314-330-5001

[Richard Donovan Jr]

Bob
It is my opinion that you sail the boat and listen to what it tells you
in feed back, i.e. weather helm, heeling, etc and make changes
accordingly. The guides that Neil Pryde and others have out are a good
starting point but they don't make one for each individual model, they
seem like a good general description of how the reefing affects the way
the boat sails and are certainly worth reading.

I believe that all sailboats have a way of telling you what they need as
the wind pipes up. I am sure the Beneteau 331 is no different. The wind
speed where reefing should start is going to be different of course but
the feel of the helm and heel angles on any design will be telling you
that as well, no need to read the manual.

There are some sail adjustments that can be made before reefing is
required that may help and are often forgotten about. A flatter sail on
both the genoa and the main. Tighten the halyard to bring the draft
location back to where it should be on both sails. Move the genoa car
aft a couple of spots to flatten the lower portions of the sail and
allow the top to twist off some and dump excess pressure. Bring the
traveler up to windward a bit and then letting off the main sheet allows
the top of the main to twist off and flatten the top of the sail, there
by reducing the pressure at the top of the mast, the vang needs to be
released for this to work.

>>>>> in 20 plus she has a tendency to round up in the wind and the helm

becomes unresponsive. Bob<<<<<

The rounding up is likely the result of to much heel and the end result
is that the rudder is either stalled or more likely only partially in
the water there by reducing the amount of work it can do for you when
you most need it. Shoal draft designs are famous for this because the
rudder comes out of the water as the boat heels. Reducing the heel of
the boat is going to help this. What you need to be more aware of is the
warning signs of building pressure on the helm before you get to the
point of loss of control because you can't keep the boat from rounding
up into the wind. If you can pick up on that, it will go a long way
toward keeping the boat under control and give some early indications
that changes are needed if the conditions build any more.

I have a wrap of tape on each of my twin wheels that I use particularly
when on the autopilot. When the wheels are centered, I have a wrap of
blue tape at 12 o'clock on each wheel. I then turned the rudder 5
degree's to port on the rudder angle indicator of the autopilot and
placed a wrap of white tape at 12 o'clock and then did the same on
starboard. That gives me just less than a quarter of a turn on the wheel
to use for each tack as a quick reference as to where I am for weather
helm. If I am hand steering I still use the reference marks but by the
time I get to the white marks it is apparent already because of the feel
of the steering input that I need to make some adjustments to sail trim
to see what I can do to lessen the helm needed to stay on course. Where
this really helps me is when the autopilot is engaged. Turning the
rudder to make the boat sail straight is slow; it is like dragging a
barn door thru the water.

When close hauled or close reaching on our 473, we first get a bit of
weather helm as the wind builds. My first adjustments are to start
flattening the sails. On the main I tighten the halyard an inch or two
and then add an inch or so of outhaul. Next step is to tighten the genoa
halyard an inch or so and move the lead aft a couple of holes on the
track. If we still are having difficulty steering a good course and the
heeling hasn't really changed much, it is time to furl the genoa 2 or 3
turns on the head stay. We then also need to move the genoa lead car
forward to compensate for the new clew position. On our boat, the genoa
seems to have the biggest effect on the heeling up to about 20 true, and
then we need to be looking at going down to the first reef point on the
main. Every boat I have sailed likes something a little different but
the end goal is the same, reduce the heeling and pressure on the helm.

Your apparent wind angle being sailed is also going to have a part in
when to reduce sail area. Upwind, you notice things sooner than when
going down wind. As a result, down wind sailing is fun in the higher
wind speeds until a course change is needed to a reach the next mark. As
you make that next course change you find out you have way to much sail
out for those conditions. I do all I can to stay ahead of the boat
mentally preparing for that next course change so that I don't get any
of those nasty little surprises by keeping a close eye on true wind
speed and direction from our instruments.

All of this comes with time on the water and learning every time you
sail your new boat, it is not as difficult as it might seem from reading
this. Pay attention to your surroundings, know what the wind is doing in
the last few minutes and/or hours and make your best educated guess as
to what you need to do to get ready for those conditions. For example;
if the wind is trending towards a building breeze, adjust early and
often. By trying to think ahead of the boat it should eventually become
second nature for you to make the changes needed and make for much more
enjoyable sailing.

Rick Donovan
Beneteau 473
Turn the Page

[dansk]

These responses were much more than I could have asked for. Thank you
so much for the advice. I sort of think I should have gotten a deep
keel, unfortunately there are not many in the used market for this
vessel.

Thanks again, I will print this our and keep it on the boat. This is
very helpful.

Regards,

Bob

On Jul 22, 1:31 pm, "Richard Donovan Jr" <sailorr...@verizon.net>
wrote:

[Ron Witt]

Force = 1/2 (air density) (coefficient of drag) (velocity squared)

Cd equals 1 only if the wind is hitting the sail at 90 degress.

Other than 90 degrees it is less than 1.

 

Ron

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[Bill Jarvis]

Rick,

To which I would only add tighten the headstay to reduce headstay sag that
is trying to power up the genoa, and moving the draft aft, as you want to
depower it and keep the draft forward.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Donovan Jr
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:32 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

[Richard Donovan Jr]

Bill
You are absolutely correct but I didn't think the B331 would have a way
to adjust the back stay easily so I didn't mention it. After reading
your reply I probably should have as it is another adjustment that could
be off to begin with, most are to loose to begin with.

Rick Donovan

[Ivars]

It's not whether a keel is deep or short. It's the amount of power your
are developing. Go have a look at the specs, the stability curve remains
generally constant, but the weight of deeper keels become lighter. The
boat gains performance from less weight and increased surface area of the
keel.....a deep keel boat still needs to reduce sail to maintain stability.

More heel translates into more helm. Reduce the sail area ( reef ) or
smaller headsail, you will reduce heel and reduce helm. In rounding up,
your boat is getting more wind as from a puff, but yet has not accelerated
to where the foils can deal with the new forces. The bottom line still
is too much sail area for the ind conditions. Reef.... Most standard
sail plans are designed for average wind conditions. not exceeding the mid
teens. For conditions in excess of the mid teems the sail plan needs to be
reduced. Moorings for example orders smaller sail plans for their charter
applications There is not a single rig that will be optimized over a
variety of conditions, thats why the manufactures offer taller and shorter
masts. It's kind of like driving on ice or rain in a car, you can't use
all the power available it will get you into trouble. .
If your sails are older they will hold more air( they are not driving the
boat forward ) ,holding more air means more heel, more heel means more
helm . When you go past the limit the boat rounds up. Review your sails
and sail trim procedures for starters..

> [Original Message]
> From: dansk <rol...@optonline.com>
> To: Beneteau Owners <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 7/22/2007 3:39:51 PM

> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds
>
>

> These responses were much more than I could have asked for. Thank you
> so much for the advice. I sort of think I should have gotten a deep
> keel, unfortunately there are not many in the used market for this
> vessel.
>
> Thanks again, I will print this our and keep it on the boat. This is
> very helpful.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob
>
> On Jul 22, 1:31 pm, "Richard Donovan Jr" <sailorr...@verizon.net>
> wrote:

[Noble, Milner E.]

I wondered when the backstay adjustment would be mentioned. I chime in here as we had a beautiful sail today, Sunday, on Lake Champlain. Wind built up and I did many these things to keep the boat moving fast. As the wind dropped, I reversed them. The Admiral and I ran 5.5-6.4 knots all afternoon at 15-20 degrees of heel on a 30-ft boat in winds that ranged from 10 to 18 knots, compounded by the incessent "confused seas" resulting from all the power boats that were out today. Bill and Rick have given us a good reminder/tutorial to review and remember.
--Milner

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Richard Donovan Jr
Sent: Sun 7/22/2007 4:51 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

[Richard Donovan Jr]

Ivars
I may be all wrong on this and judging from your excellent posts in the
past I would not question your opinion on subjects like this, but my
thinking on a shallow draft design has always been that because the keel
is shorter, i.e. less draft, that the rudder must be shorter as well.
You don't want the rudder to hit something before the keel, right?

I don't know the answer to this question, but is the rudder generally
the same on a shallow draft and the deep draft version of any particular
model or are there two different lengths?

If the shallow draft design has a shallow rudder as I suspect, wouldn't
the shallow draft model have less foil in the water than a deep draft
model at the same heel angle? Wouldn't the shallow rudder give up
control sooner than a deeper foil would because of that extra length??

Of course this is getting a bit off of the subject of when to reef a
B331. I apologize to the list for that.

Rick Donovan

[michael puig]

The 321 that I used to own would round up in 20 or so, I had the classic
main. The thing is that the more the boat heels over the more leeway,
the more weather helm so on and so on. A good indication is when you
blow the rudder - time to reef, When it got to over 25 I would put in a
second reef. Keep the boat flat and it sails very well. Now if you had a
new main you might to be able to delay reefing a bit due to the fact
that the new main would be much flatter.

Rember the guy that went across the atlantic in a 321???

[Ted Weitz]

I have the lifting keel version of the B323.  It also tends to be a bit tender as the breeze pipes up, and reef reasonably early.  I have never noticed excess weather helm, however, and I suspect that the reason is that the lifting keel version has twin rudders, offset.  The twin rudders are so that there is sufficient rudder area without deeper draft than at the keel, but it seems to me a beneficial side effect is that as the boat heels more, the windward rudder is always deeper in the water and gets plenty of grip.  Anyone have any knowledge if my theory is right?

tm...@columbia.edu

[Mark Stillwell]

Bob,

You didn't say if you have a classic or furling main. We have a furling main and 140 Genoa. We easily handle winds on a close haul up to 15 knot true/20 knots apparent before reefing. As winds start to build, we move the fairleads to the end of the track and flatten the Genoa. We tighten the mainsail outhaul to the car stop, and tighten the mainsheet with the traveler in the center position to flatten the main. As winds approach 15 knot true and we become over powered, we lower the traveler. It's amazing how we can be right on the edge of rounding up, then lowering the traveler will bring us back under control.

At consistent winds above 15 knot true, we take about 3 rolls on the Genoa and move the fairlead forward 4 holes and roll the main in about a third.

At 20 knot true, we roll the Genoa about 3 more turns, move the fairlead forward 4 more holes and roll the main in about half way -- to the traveler. We have sailed in consistent 25 knot true and 30 knot gusts at this setting. Last summer we had a blast with this setting and consistent 20-25 knot winds. Mark Twain Lake was white with 3-5 ft waves--big for this lake. After a couple of hours we got tired of playing and noted we were the only boat on the lake. When we got back to the marina, we learned the water patrol had closed the lake due to high winds. We recalled seeing them a few hours before. They must have seen us under control and having fun and decided to leave us alone.

With each reef, we move the traveler to the center and tighten the main sheet. We lower the traveler as needed to keep Dragonfly on her feet.

We sailed a 393 in BVI last year and come to the same conclusion...Beneteaus like to sail upright. Flattening the sails, adjusting the traveler and reefing all help keep them sailing upright and fast.

Good luck.

Mark & Suzanne
"Dragonfly" B331
http://home.att.net/~dragonflyb331/

----- Original Message -----
From: "dansk" <rol...@optonline.com>
To: "Beneteau Owners" <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>

[Brian Mikiten]

I have found that reefing my F305 will take care of this problem. I
also pull in the furling genoa to about 70%. I regularly sail in 20+
winds on the Texas coast and the boat is very stable.

Brian

[Ivars]

Rick,

You are right on about the rudder on shoal draft boats. They give up a
bit earlier. AC boats have different length rudders to fine tune for
conditions as an example. Rounding up goes to how much the boat is
heeling and how much water is flowing over the foils to help with control.
It is easier to round up in puffy conditions as inland and along a shore
where winds can readily change direction and intensity. As a puff comes
through the boat heels, then the helm increases. The boat accelerates
and the helm settles. In rounding up the wind change is greater /
stronger /often new direction , the boat cannot accelerate enough with
the increased wind, the foils are not getting enough flow, sail trimmers
are not responding fast enough and away we go.

I was responding to a comment about a deeper keel and not really go there.
Rounding up is more a function of hull shape and heel amount. The hull (
and foils ) shape we ( as owners ) can't do much about. We can do much
about rig tune and condition. The helm should be set for the average
conditions the boat sails in. The helm will change as the sails age and as
the sail plan is changed around ( smaller/larger headsails. Clean bottom
vs dirty bottom, a dirty bottom will not accelerate as fast or generate the
speed to optimise the work of the foils. Then there is crewing/trimming of
the rig. All go to reducing the likelyhood of rounding up,

> [Original Message]
> From: Richard Donovan Jr <sailo...@verizon.net>
> To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 7/22/2007 7:35:39 PM
> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

[Noble, Milner E.]

"Remember the guy that went across the Atlantic in a 321???"

Are you referring to Jean Vaury, who sailed his First 30, "Little Wing,"
across the Atlantic in 2001 or another person?
--Milner

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of michael puig
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 9:47 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

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[jkr...@aol.com]

As an owner of a shoal draft 331 I can state that the rudders on the shoal and deep draft boats are the same . I have sailed in 30 knots and have had only a very small amount of sail out. I have also been overpowered unexpectedly on a day sail and had to drop the mail to regain control. I will say that the 331 likes winds over 15 knots but NOT with sails pulled tight towards the center. With this boat (as most) it's about balancing the rig for the wind and wave conditions.

Ron
S/v Esprit
B331#227

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[dansk]

Mark,

Thanks for your comments. When you say you lowered the traveler can
you be more specific, do you move it to leeward?

BTW I have a classic main, about 20% more sail area.

Regards,

Bob

On Jul 22, 11:26 pm, "Mark Stillwell" <stillwe...@att.net> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> You didn't say if you have a classic or furling main. We have a furling main and 140 Genoa. We easily handle winds on a close haul up to 15 knot true/20 knots apparent before reefing. As winds start to build, we move the fairleads to the end of the track and flatten the Genoa. We tighten the mainsail outhaul to the car stop, and tighten the mainsheet with the traveler in the center position to flatten the main. As winds approach 15 knot true and we become over powered, we lower the traveler. It's amazing how we can be right on the edge of rounding up, then lowering the traveler will bring us back under control.
>
> At consistent winds above 15 knot true, we take about 3 rolls on the Genoa and move the fairlead forward 4 holes and roll the main in about a third.
>
> At 20 knot true, we roll the Genoa about 3 more turns, move the fairlead forward 4 more holes and roll the main in about half way -- to the traveler. We have sailed in consistent 25 knot true and 30 knot gusts at this setting. Last summer we had a blast with this setting and consistent 20-25 knot winds. Mark Twain Lake was white with 3-5 ft waves--big for this lake. After a couple of hours we got tired of playing and noted we were the only boat on the lake. When we got back to the marina, we learned the water patrol had closed the lake due to high winds. We recalled seeing them a few hours before. They must have seen us under control and having fun and decided to leave us alone.
>
> With each reef, we move the traveler to the center and tighten the main sheet. We lower the traveler as needed to keep Dragonfly on her feet.
>
> We sailed a 393 in BVI last year and come to the same conclusion...Beneteaus like to sail upright. Flattening the sails, adjusting the traveler and reefing all help keep them sailing upright and fast.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Mark & Suzanne

> "Dragonfly" B331http://home.att.net/~dragonflyb331/

[still...@att.net]

Bob,

Yes, I move the traveler to leeward to reduce power on the main. We used the same techniques when we sailed BVI with classic main on the 393....start with traveler in the center position, flatten the main by tightening the mainsheet, then lowering the traveler to leeward as weather helm increased, reef when needed, return traveler to center....

Good luck,

Mark

-------------- Original message from dansk <rol...@optonline.com>: --------------

[Noble, Milner E.]

Isn't the idea to have the boom on center line when close hauled?  If so, then the traveler needs to go to windward on my boat.  When the puffs come or the wind picks up, one does as you suggest --move the traveler to leeward.

--Milner

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of still...@att.net
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 10:09 AM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

[Bill Jarvis]

Yes,

As a puff hits the apparent wind moves aft. Therefore the main needs to be
eased to leeward to accelerate the boat. As it accelerales the apparent wind
moves forward so the main needs to be brought back in.

Bill

[Bill Jarvis]

Milner,

 

The answer is Yes …..and No. Yes until the boat starts to get over powered then it’s time to let the boom down to leeward to maintain balance. That comes about mostly by controlling heel.

 

As the boat heels the sails are moved to leeward of the keel. That causes a turning force, pivoting the sails around the keel. That is the weather helm. Reduce the heel, reduce the weather helm.

 

Bill

> <BR

[Ca...@aol.com]

The Neil Pryde site trimming guide really helped me sort out the details.

http://sailingsource.com/neilpryde/boatclass/beneteau.htm

The mainsail tuning guide is for all sizes and types and is quite clear, and the specific guides give details like how far back the jib sheet fairlead should be set for each reef point. Highly peachy.

Cap in MD

In a message dated 7/23/2007 10:26:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bjar...@suddenlink.net writes:

Yes,

As a puff hits the apparent wind moves aft. Therefore the main needs to be
eased to leeward to accelerate the boat. As it accelerales the apparent wind
moves forward so the main needs to be brought back in.

Bill

Cap & Linda Munday
Zydeco, Beneteau 473 #20
Linda - 443-994-0457
Cap - 909-969-3379
Maryland


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[still...@att.net]

Yes, your thoughts are consistent with mine. The comments below are in reference to heavy winds. In light winds (less than 10), we have the traveler all the way to windward, the outhaul eased about 4 inchs and the mainsheet eased to have more depth in the main. As the wind starts to build, we tighten the outhaul and mainsheet to flatten the main and lower the traveler...move to leeward. By 10-12 knots true -- 16-18 apparent-- we have the traveler centered, the main and outhaul tightened as discribed below. When gusty, by 15 knots the traveler may be all the way leeward and we are ready to reef.

Hope this helps clarify. Others may do it different, but this seems to work for us. Mark

-------------- Original message from "Noble, Milner E." <Milner...@vtmednet.org>: --------------

[michael puig]

No,

this is (yes French, what would you expect) that left Mass, and sailed
to France in a 321 - I finally tracked him down - he basically said the
boat was a good little boat - it was hairy (my term) at times and that
the best gear in the world is a drogue - He also said he will never sail
in aft cockpit boats again. Only center cockpit.

[Ivars]

Correct Milner,  the boom on centerline is a good starting point,  refined a bit more is the top or top two battens point aft ( not to winward )   Whne a puff comes, ease the traveller.  Kind of like slipping the clutch.

 

[Noble, Milner E.]

Good to be reminded to check the position of the upper battens!!!!  Thanks.

[Capt Guy]

Consider what is happening to the rudder...it too is a foil... at severe
angle of attacks. it will stall. When it stalls, it has no flow and is
ineffective. A wide short rudder is gonna stall sooner than a long thin
rudder. Ditto the keel. One thing to do as the rudder approaches stall, is
to back off a spoke or two for a few seconds and let the water re-attach.
Good crew will keep thier eyes on the wheel and when you've cranked in a few
spokes, will ease the main thus keeping the boat driving forward.

I thought the shoal draft B's had a shorter rudder than the normal draft
B's.

-------------------------------------------------
Captain Guy
s/v Island Time (Beneteau 352#277)
AICW 845.5
386-689-5088

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Donovan Jr" <sailo...@verizon.net>
To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 7:34 PM
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

>

[Edward English]

Milner,

Actually the most effective technique after setting up traveller to handle the average wind speed is to release or play the main sheet as this releases pressure quickly when hit by a gust. In heavy air, we play the main sheet going up wind and play the vang-sheeted main going off of the wind.

Ed

OBS

[Larry Cohan]

This is a great thread.  We're actually talking about sailing our boats rather than things that work mainly at the dock or at anchor.

Thanks to whoever started this one.  It's sweeeeeet.   8-)

Larry

[Noble, Milner E.]

I do this when we get strong puffs, but on a day sail with light -- but pesky -- puffs, I often have someone "drive" and I work the traveler -- partly for education and partly for fun.  Once in a while we have to "blow the main"  but that's a pretty good puff.  As I commented earlier, I try to keep the boat at about 15 degrees of heel as I have found that to be the fastest heel angle for this boat.   If it pipes up steady, or looks like it's going to, then we reef.  On the Pearson 34 that I crew on Wednesday nights, the optimum heel angle is 20 degrees or so.  That boat likes a lot of wind.

[Ca...@aol.com]

One of the interesting things that came back to me in the Neil Pryde guide was that when you play out the main to flatten the boat but it gets a big luff from the headsail and won't stay flat, you need to reef. I've found this to be true on most boats, but really true on our 473.

I was mainsheet on a Soveril 33. It flew in light airs, but we were always fighting it when it blew 15 kts+. We would flatten the main, use a smaller headsail, but I was bushed fighting the main (as mentioned earlier, going to weather I handled the sheet, off the breeze I handled the traveler). If the skipper of 'Moving Violation' had reefed, we would have been faster, I'm sure.

Cap in MD

In a message dated 7/23/2007 4:57:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Milner...@vtmednet.org writes:

I do this when we get strong puffs, but on a day sail with light -- but pesky -- puffs, I often have someone "drive" and I work the traveler -- partly for education and partly for fun.  Once in a while we have to "blow the main"  but that's a pretty good puff.  As I commented earlier, I try to keep the boat at about 15 degrees of heel as I have found that to be the fastest heel angle for this boat.   If it pipes up steady, or looks like it's going to, then we reef.  On the Pearson 34 that I crew on Wednesday nights, the optimum heel angle is 20 degrees or so.  That boat likes a lot of wind.
--Milner

Cap & Linda Munday
Zydeco, Beneteau 473 #20
Linda - 443-994-0457
Cap - 909-969-3379
Maryland

[Larry Cohan]

Ca...@aol.com wrote:

I was mainsheet on a Soveril 33. It flew in light airs, but we were always fighting it when it blew 15 kts+.

Back in the last millennium when I moved up to an auxiliary sailboat, I took a course at a well-known sailing school.  (I now work for a competitor. <grin>) 

The instructor told us to use the heeling angle on the clinometer rather than wind speed as the primary early warning indicator of when to reef the main.  He said, "(1) when the angle gets to 15º, start thinking about reefing and (2) when you start thinking about whether it's time to reef or not, it is."  My "first-and-only mate" agrees with that.

IOW, 15 knots (true wind) on a broad reach does not need a reef.  15 knots while beating probably does.

He made us practice reefing until we could do it with jiffy-reefing in 30 seconds (with a crew of 2 plus the helmsperson).  As you've heard me say before, he also made us look at the knotmeter before and after putting in each reef to prove to us we were going faster with less sail.

I've silently thanked that instructor many times when it started blowing like stink out in the middle of the Bay.

Larry

P.S.  Off-topic.  The current issue of Sailing magazine has a letter to the editor, Bill Shanen, from me pointing out that he goofed in an article on rules of the road vis-a-vis "boats that are fishing" (which are not fishing boats by the nav rules definition of same.)  In that article, he said that a sailboat passing a recreational fishing boat from behind had the right-of-way.  Wrong!  A sailboat passing anything has to stay clear of the boat she is passing.    He agreed with me in commenting on my letter to the editor.  :-)

The above is just for my ego trip.  8-)     No reply necessary.  (Or if you do, start a new thread on that subject.)

[Jeffrey]

Ok I understand and we use the traveler but have not mastered the “vang” any info on vang use would be appreciated.

 

Jeffrey J. Schwartz

 

 

 

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cohan
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:08 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

 

Ca...@aol.com wrote:

[Bill Jarvis]

Jeffrey,

 

The vang controls the tension on the leech, especially when the boom is not being pulled down by the mainsheet. It controls the amount of twist in the main.

 

Bill

[dansk]

I was told to tighten the vang to power up the main. When necessary
to depower release the vang 'dumping' the air in the main. I don't
know if this is correct however.

Bob

On Jul 24, 6:58 am, "Bill Jarvis" <bjarv...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
> Jeffrey,
>
> The vang controls the tension on the leech, especially when the boom is not
> being pulled down by the mainsheet. It controls the amount of twist in the
> main.
>
> Bill
>
> From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:58 PM
> To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds
>
> Ok I understand and we use the traveler but have not mastered the "vang" any
> info on vang use would be appreciated.
>
> Jeffrey J. Schwartz
>
> _____
>

> From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cohan
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:08 PM
> To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds
>

[Bill Jarvis]

As I go thought the various steps to depower the main I will put the vang on
tight before dropping the traveler to the end stop or beyond.

Bill

[michael puig]

on the 321, if it was over powered and I did not have a reef, I would
bring the car all the way windward, as far as it would go and then play
the sheet to dump the leach to spill the wind. It works very well but it
gives the sail cloth a workout. I would also have the genoa car back all
the way to open the leach in the genoa. I never had the vang on as this
would close the leech. You want the leach open to spill the air in the
upper part of the sail - the lower part (less heeling). This is only
good for so much - eventually you will have to reef.

You could play the vang in more moderate conditions but on a 321 but it
would require re-rigging.

[Edward English]

Correct, and when the traveller is down, releasing the vang causes the main to twist off in such a manner that air is spilled off of the top portion, rapidly de-powering the main. When I raced J-24's, we had to use the vang on heavy down wind sailing to compensate for a short rudder. In a real puff, we prevented ourselves from rounding up by blowing the vang. Despite the big rudder on a 36.7, we have had to blow the vang in spin runs when the winds were over 30 knots and gusting.

Ed

OBS

[Jeffrey]

Do you mean when the traveler is down that is to leeward?   Blowing the vang means … letting it loose? 

 

Ok I know that if I move the traveler to windward on a close reach in light air we gain power/speed.

I know that if I move the traveler to leeward side we de-power the main and do not heal as much. 

I am still not sure of the proper use of the vang… do you pull down which tightens the main to flatten it to de-power the main or does that give it more power?

 

Thanks,

 

Jeffrey J. Schwartz

 

 

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Edward English
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:31 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

 

Correct, and when the traveller is down, releasing the vang causes the main to twist off in such a manner that air is spilled off of the top portion, rapidly de-powering the main. When I raced J-24's, we had to use the vang on heavy down wind sailing to compensate for a short rudder. In a real puff, we prevented ourselves from rounding up by blowing the vang. Despite the big rudder on a 36.7, we have had to blow the vang in spin runs when the winds were over 30 knots and gusting.

Ed

OBS

On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:58 AM, Bill Jarvis wrote:

Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:58 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

size=2 width="100%" align=center>

Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cohan
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:08 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

[Edward English]

Jeffrey,

Down is to leeward. Blowing the vang means to release it quickly. This causes the sail to twist off to leeward at the top and spill air off of the top. It rapidly de-powers the sail which could save you if you are on a reach and start to round up.

Ed

OBS

On Jul 24, 2007, at 4:42 PM, Jeffrey wrote:

Do you mean when the traveler is down that is to leeward? Blowing the vang means ... letting it loose?

Ok I know that if I move the traveler to windward on a close reach in light air we gain power/speed.

I know that if I move the traveler to leeward side we de-power the main and do not heal as much.

I am still not sure of the proper use of the vang... do you pull down which tightens the main to flatten it to de-power the main or does that give it more power?

[Glen...@aol.com]

Vang action depends on point of sail and mainsheet tension.  On a reach, tightening the vang pulls the leach straighter, brings the upper batten more in line with the boom, and can give more speed and power.  The criteria is to pull the vang until the upper tell tale on the end of the upper batten begins to stall, then loosen it slightly to have a nicely flowing upper tell tale.

 

On a beat, there are different combinations useful:  You can keep the mainsheet tensioned fully to keep a flat sail and let the traveller off to depower, reduce heeling., etcetera.  That is my first move as the flat sail is more efficient, less heeling force, and the traveller off reduces healing and helm nicely. 

 

On  a dinghy or a large boat rig with a bendy mast, vanging hard with a tight mainsheet bends the mast, further flattening and depowering the sail.  If the mast is not designed for bend, the vanging hard allows you to sheet out the main in puffs if your traveller is already fully down giving further depower without giving up the flattened sail.

 

Obviously if continuously in a round up situation, reefing is the final solution.

 

Glen

 

 

In a message dated 7/24/2007 9:20:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rol...@optonline.com writes:

I was told to tighten the vang to power up the main.  When necessary
to depower release the vang 'dumping' the air in the main.  I don't
know if this is correct however.

Bob

 

---

Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

[Scott]

Before I give my 2 cents, I was just remembering back to when I
started sailing in the mid 60s, and boats were narrow with deep keels,
and going to windward meant that you had the rail buried. The boats
were made to sail OK at 25deg of heel, and 30 deg was ok as well. So
that is what I think of when I sail in 20kts. However, the new beamy
high freeboard boats are NOT made to sail like that. 15 deg is prob
optimum, maybe 20. With this much freeboard, if you put the rail down,
you are probably broaching. In fact, if I get my hull windows in, then
it s probably as far as it should go!

My 373 rounds up severely when to windward in about 15kts. In the
Yahoo forums, I found this was true of all 373s, and believe that the
boat should have been designed with either a larger rudder, more
ballast, or something to move the COE foward to prevent this in only
15 kts of wind. I was very frustrated with this situation last year,
but have done the following this year.

1. Several other 373 owners said a feathering or folding prop helped
them. I got a Kiwi feathering prop, and son of gun, it does help
dramatically. Apparently, the water flow with the 3 bladed fixed prop
wasn't nearly as laminar and hurting rudder performance. With the
feathering prop, water flow to the rudder is better.

2. I set my genoa first, then set the mainsheet. I use the traveller
to control heel. If I have mainsheet in tight, and traveller out, and
main luffs, then its time to reef the main. Since I solo alot, many
times I will just let main luff some rather than do lots of work to
reef. Or I will just fall off abit and head on a lower course if I am
day sailing in the bay.

3. If winds are going to be in the 15-20 kt range, I will reef main
(furling) to where I can just have the B touching the mast. Then I
furl genoa to 1st mark. Boat sails very comfortable like this, but
unfortunately, I have found that the boat does not point well with
genoa furled. If I need to point better, I have tried less main and
full genoa, which works well.

4. I am considering getting a 110 as my main genoa. I find that if the
winds are 5-8, then I use the iron genoa, and if the winds are going
to be 15-20, a 110 might be a better sail.

Hope this helps. I know each boat is different. I was sailing on a
473 a few weeks ago in 20 kts, full sail, probably heeled more than it
should have been , but man, that thing just took it all. Of course,
the owner told me that unless he had 15 kts, it didn't move at all;-)

Scott

[Michael]

Lay your main over more. Drop it in 3" increments. She will go a lot
faster too in 20- winds.

[dansk]

Michael,

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "lay your main over
more" ?

Thanks.

Bob

[Noble, Milner E.]

My experience Sunday on the 361 was as follows:

We left Point Bay Marina, south of Charlotte, VT, about noon and headed
out around the point to go north to Burlington. Tacking back & forth
across Lake Champlain in a north wind, it is a 5-hour sail up to
Burlington. The winds started at 10.5 knots and gradually built to 15
plus for a while, before dropping back a little to 11-14 N near the end
of the trip.

We were towing a hard dinghy (a 9-foot Puffin) with outboard in place,
but up out of the water. An ungainly sea anchor for sure.

We unfurled the main and jib (a little tired). The main was not
"flattened."

The traveler was left on centerline, so the main was to WW somewhat and
the jib was sheeted fairly hard.

It was a perfect summer day, and we had one of the best sails we have
had. With the dinghy in tow, we reached speeds of 6.6 knots, most often
running about 5.6 knots +. With the wind instrument set to "true" I
kept the boat at about 60 degrees to the wind angle, pinching when I
could, but then the boat speed dropped quickly to 4.8 knots or so, and
that was boring.

The boat was heeled nicely -- no degree gauge on board -- and at one
point we took in a little main to see what effect that would have -- not
much -- we probably didn't take in enough to make a difference, and we
let it back out again to keep up speed. On one tack we slogged through
the waves at 5.4+ knots and on the other we ran 6+ knots with ease --
holding the boat to 60+/- degrees off the true wind indication. The
main was almost a "set & forget" and we set the jib the same on each
tack. Cruiser mentality that day, I guess. :-)

If the wind had picked up any more, we would have reefed the sails, but
this 361 with the dinghy in tow provided a great ride up the lake in a
steady 11-14.5+ knots all day. We saw boats with both sail out full,
with reefed jibs, with no main up, and bare-pole motoring. We were
passed by a Hunter 40 with their inflatable up on davits. It took them
a long time to catch us and go by. :-)

FWIW, that model Beneteau, towing the dinghy, in those conditions
provided us with a great ride all day. We discussed reefing once, but
the wind held at 15+ and did not increase except for one 16-knot puff.
It was a fun trip, and we bought the boat "home" into Burlington harbor
at good speed after it's two-year absence to travel down and up the east
coast.

--Milner

Confidentiality Notice:
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[Michael Roper]

Ed I understood that all the rock stars used only mainsheet and vang , no traveler as in the new B’s. I have just my bi-annual pilgrimage to the tropics and one thing is absolute, reef the main early and often.   Mike Roper

 

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Edward English
Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2007 8:31 AM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

 

Correct, and when the traveller is down, releasing the vang causes the main to twist off in such a manner that air is spilled off of the top portion, rapidly de-powering the main. When I raced J-24's, we had to use the vang on heavy down wind sailing to compensate for a short rudder. In a real puff, we prevented ourselves from rounding up by blowing the vang. Despite the big rudder on a 36.7, we have had to blow the vang in spin runs when the winds were over 30 knots and gusting.

Ed

OBS

On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:58 AM, Bill Jarvis wrote:

Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:58 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

size=2 width="100%" align=center>

Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cohan
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:08 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: Rounding Up In 20 Plus Winds

[Mark]

Bob,

As wind increases with full sail plan let your Traveler down slowly to
reduce heal.

Once the Traveler is all the way down and you still lack control,
bring the Traveler all the way up while realeasing your mainsheet.
This will give you pleanty of driving force down the centerline of the
boat but will spill air at the top of the main reducing healing.

When this is not enough, reef both your Main and Genoa equally.
Reefing one or the other will feel out of balance.

Hope this helps.

Also thought it may not be practical, the more weight at the bow
versus the stern the better.

This is a design flaw with the Beneteau's and really feels unsafe at
times but if you follow the advice above with the traveler, you wont
need to reef so early.

Mark

Former 373 owner (terrible rounding up problem)
Current 49 owner (great balanced boat! Get her in trim and go hands
off, increadable!

[Scott]

Why would you bring the traveller back up?  Just let the mainsheet out

 

 

Mark <mark.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

---

Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Mark]

Scott,

A racing tactic that is an interim step to simply letting the traveler
down and then letting the sheet out. By bringing the boom as far back
to centerline and loosening the sheet, you mainting driving power and
reduce healing forces.

So as wind continually increases:
1- Traveler moves down, keeping mainsheet trim.
2- Traveller moves all the way up, loosen mainsheet.
3- Traveller goes down.
4- Reef

Try it.. it works!!!

Mark

On Aug 23, 3:43 pm, Scott <ipacke...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why would you bring the traveller back up? Just let the mainsheet out
>

> Mark <mark.spiegel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> As wind increases with full sail plan let your Traveler down slowly to
> reduce heal.
>
> Once the Traveler is all the way down and you still lack control,
> bring the Traveler all the way up while realeasing your mainsheet.
> This will give you pleanty of driving force down the centerline of the
> boat but will spill air at the top of the main reducing healing.
>
> When this is not enough, reef both your Main and Genoa equally.
> Reefing one or the other will feel out of balance.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Also thought it may not be practical, the more weight at the bow
> versus the stern the better.
>
> This is a design flaw with the Beneteau's and really feels unsafe at
> times but if you follow the advice above with the traveler, you wont
> need to reef so early.
>
> Mark
>
> Former 373 owner (terrible rounding up problem)
> Current 49 owner (great balanced boat! Get her in trim and go hands
> off, increadable!
>

> ---------------------------------

[Ca...@aol.com]

Mark,

Thanks for this! It's excellent advice that over the years I have totally forgotten.

Cap & Linda Munday
Zydeco, Beneteau 473 #20
Linda - 443-994-0457
Cap - 909-969-3379
Maryland

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