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Jul 12, 2023, 10:24:35 AMJul 12

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

You wrote June 23 that “There are reliable experimental confirmations

of the EPR-B correlation”. But you didn't give a single example. Does

anyone know about reliable experimental confirmations of the EPR

correlation?

You also wrote that “The whole idea of David Bohm was to bring EPR

closer to experimental investigation”. I must say that here you are

following the misconception of many authors who have not read either

the EPR paper [1] or David Bohm, or have read inattentively. Even a

hint of the miracle that Bohm postulated is not in the EPR paper [1].

EPR considered only knowledge. They wrote in the Abstract: “In quantum

mechanics in the case of two physical quantities described by

non-commuting operators, the knowledge of one precludes the knowledge

of the other” [1]. We cannot know the exact values of the momentum and

coordinate of one particle in the same state, since the operators of

these physical quantities do not commute. But the operators can fail

to commute only if they act on the same particle. Therefore we can

know the exact values of the momentum of a particle A p_{A} and

coordinate of a particle B x_{B}. We can also know the total momentum

of particles A and B, for example p_{A} + p_{B} = 0. We can use the

law of momentum conservation in order to know the exact value of the

momentum of the particle B p_{B} = -p_{A}.

Thus, the EPR proposed a way to logically refute the symbols of faith

in quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the

Bohr complementarity principle. No miracles are postulated in this

method, since it is only about knowledge. And if we can talk about the

EPR correlation, then only as an entanglement of our knowledge, in

accordance with Schridinger's definition proposed in 1935: ”Maximal

knowledge of a total system does not necessarily include total

knowledge of all its parts, not even when these are fully separated

from each other and at the moment are not influencing each other at

all” [2]. Our knowledge about particles A and B is entangled when we

know their total momentum p_{A} + p_{B} = 0 and therefore can find out

the momentum of particle B p_{B} = -p_{A} by measuring the momentum of

particle A.

We can think that measuring the momentum of the particle A changes

only our knowledge. But we cannot think so in the case of the

measurement of spin projections, considered by Bohm, since the

projection can be measured in different directions. I draw once again

your attention on Fig. 1 in my preprint “Logical proof of the

absurdity of the EPR correlation“ available on ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331584709_Logical_proof_of_the_absurdity_of_the_EPR_correlation

. This preprint explains quite clearly and even popularly why we

cannot think that only our knowledge is changed at measurement of spin

projections. For this reason Dirac had to postulate in 1930 that a

change in the observer's knowledge leads to a change in the state of a

quantum system. Dirac postulated that only the system being measured

should jump into an eigenstate of the dynamical variable that is being

measured. For this reason the orthodox quantum mechanics with its

Dirac jump cannot predict the EPR correlation in the results of

observations of two particles of the EPR pair, see section 3 “The

Assumption used at the Deduction of the GHZ Theorem Makes Impossible

the EPR Correlation” of [3].

The EPR correlation can be predicted only if we will postulate, as

Bohm did, that the observer's knowledge about the particle A can

change the state not only this particle A but also the other particle

B. I demonstrate in the section 6 “The Rejection of Realism Results to

the Absurd” of [3] that Bohm's postulate about the miracle leads

logically to the absurd: two observers can create different states of

the same particles. A reliable observation of the EPR correlation can

confirm the existence of not only miracles, but also the absurd.

Therefore, I would like to know if there is reliable experimental

evidence of the EPR correlation.

[1] A. Einstein, B. Podolsky, and N. Rosen, Can Quantum-Mechanical

Description of Physical Reality Be Considered Complete? Phys. Rev. 47,

777 (1935).

[2] E. Schrodinger, Die gegenwartige Situation in der Quantenmechanik,

Naturwissenschaften 23, 807 (1935).

[3] Nikulov, A. Physical Thinking and the GHZ Theorem. Found Phys 53,

51 (2023). DOI:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10701-023-00693-y , the

article is available on ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370581308_Physical_Thinking_and_the_GHZ_Theorem

.

With best wishes,

Alexey

You wrote June 23 that “There are reliable experimental confirmations

of the EPR-B correlation”. But you didn't give a single example. Does

anyone know about reliable experimental confirmations of the EPR

correlation?

You also wrote that “The whole idea of David Bohm was to bring EPR

closer to experimental investigation”. I must say that here you are

following the misconception of many authors who have not read either

the EPR paper [1] or David Bohm, or have read inattentively. Even a

hint of the miracle that Bohm postulated is not in the EPR paper [1].

EPR considered only knowledge. They wrote in the Abstract: “In quantum

mechanics in the case of two physical quantities described by

non-commuting operators, the knowledge of one precludes the knowledge

of the other” [1]. We cannot know the exact values of the momentum and

coordinate of one particle in the same state, since the operators of

these physical quantities do not commute. But the operators can fail

to commute only if they act on the same particle. Therefore we can

know the exact values of the momentum of a particle A p_{A} and

coordinate of a particle B x_{B}. We can also know the total momentum

of particles A and B, for example p_{A} + p_{B} = 0. We can use the

law of momentum conservation in order to know the exact value of the

momentum of the particle B p_{B} = -p_{A}.

Thus, the EPR proposed a way to logically refute the symbols of faith

in quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the

Bohr complementarity principle. No miracles are postulated in this

method, since it is only about knowledge. And if we can talk about the

EPR correlation, then only as an entanglement of our knowledge, in

accordance with Schridinger's definition proposed in 1935: ”Maximal

knowledge of a total system does not necessarily include total

knowledge of all its parts, not even when these are fully separated

from each other and at the moment are not influencing each other at

all” [2]. Our knowledge about particles A and B is entangled when we

know their total momentum p_{A} + p_{B} = 0 and therefore can find out

the momentum of particle B p_{B} = -p_{A} by measuring the momentum of

particle A.

We can think that measuring the momentum of the particle A changes

only our knowledge. But we cannot think so in the case of the

measurement of spin projections, considered by Bohm, since the

projection can be measured in different directions. I draw once again

your attention on Fig. 1 in my preprint “Logical proof of the

absurdity of the EPR correlation“ available on ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331584709_Logical_proof_of_the_absurdity_of_the_EPR_correlation

. This preprint explains quite clearly and even popularly why we

cannot think that only our knowledge is changed at measurement of spin

projections. For this reason Dirac had to postulate in 1930 that a

change in the observer's knowledge leads to a change in the state of a

quantum system. Dirac postulated that only the system being measured

should jump into an eigenstate of the dynamical variable that is being

measured. For this reason the orthodox quantum mechanics with its

Dirac jump cannot predict the EPR correlation in the results of

observations of two particles of the EPR pair, see section 3 “The

Assumption used at the Deduction of the GHZ Theorem Makes Impossible

the EPR Correlation” of [3].

The EPR correlation can be predicted only if we will postulate, as

Bohm did, that the observer's knowledge about the particle A can

change the state not only this particle A but also the other particle

B. I demonstrate in the section 6 “The Rejection of Realism Results to

the Absurd” of [3] that Bohm's postulate about the miracle leads

logically to the absurd: two observers can create different states of

the same particles. A reliable observation of the EPR correlation can

confirm the existence of not only miracles, but also the absurd.

Therefore, I would like to know if there is reliable experimental

evidence of the EPR correlation.

[1] A. Einstein, B. Podolsky, and N. Rosen, Can Quantum-Mechanical

Description of Physical Reality Be Considered Complete? Phys. Rev. 47,

777 (1935).

[2] E. Schrodinger, Die gegenwartige Situation in der Quantenmechanik,

Naturwissenschaften 23, 807 (1935).

[3] Nikulov, A. Physical Thinking and the GHZ Theorem. Found Phys 53,

51 (2023). DOI:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10701-023-00693-y , the

article is available on ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370581308_Physical_Thinking_and_the_GHZ_Theorem

.

With best wishes,

Alexey

Jul 12, 2023, 11:47:21 AMJul 12

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Alexei, you can use Google yourself, I hope, and also understand experimental papers.

Take a look at Figure 5a in https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05885-0

"Loophole-free Bell inequality violation with superconducting circuits”

Storz et al 2023.

You see a not quite full amplitude negative cosine correlation. The two qubits are 30 meters apart and the point was that this experiment contains a loophole free violation of Bell inequalities

Had they put those two qubits just centimetres apart then they would have found an almost full amplitude negative cosine, but naturally it would not have been a “loophole free” Bell experiment

The description of the figure is a bit misleading. There are three different settings for Alice, and for each of those, 17 for Bob. They plotted three curves. They should should be seen as 3 x 17 points on a surface

Jul 12, 2023, 1:38:01 PMJul 12

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

I can use Google and I not only understand, but also write

experimental papers. But I do not know where to look for experimental

evidence of the EPR correlation. You wrote that “There are reliable

experimental confirmations of the EPR-B correlation”. Therefore I

asked you June 23 to give me links to publications that describe

reliable experimental confirmations of the EPR-B correlation. I asked

about the EPR-B correlation rather than Bell’s inequalities. The EPR-B

correlation, rather than the GHZ theorem [1], should be called Bell's

theorem without inequalities. If measurements of the spin projection

of two particles or the polarization of two photons in the same

direction will give the correlation with probability 1, then this will

be experimental evidence not only a miracle, but also absurdity.

As for the article “Loophole-free Bell inequality violation with

superconducting circuits” to which you have sent the link, such

publications only discredit claims about the refutation of realism. I

am a specialist primarily in superconductivity. I know that no

phenomenon observed in superconductors forces us to abandon realism,

as the Stern-Gerlach effect does. Feynman in his Lectures on Physics

noticed that macroscopic quantum phenomena, unlike microscopic

phenomena, are described realistically. I know that the contradiction

of superconducting phenomena with macroscopic realism was invented by

Anthony Leggett without any reason. But most people believe the Nobel

Prize winner.

[1] Greenberger, D.M., Horne, M.A., Shimony, A., Zeilinger, A., Bell’s

theorem without inequalities. Am. J. Phys. 58, 1131–1143 (1990)

With best wishes,

Alexey

ср, 12 июл. 2023 г. в 18:47, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

I can use Google and I not only understand, but also write

experimental papers. But I do not know where to look for experimental

evidence of the EPR correlation. You wrote that “There are reliable

experimental confirmations of the EPR-B correlation”. Therefore I

asked you June 23 to give me links to publications that describe

reliable experimental confirmations of the EPR-B correlation. I asked

about the EPR-B correlation rather than Bell’s inequalities. The EPR-B

correlation, rather than the GHZ theorem [1], should be called Bell's

theorem without inequalities. If measurements of the spin projection

of two particles or the polarization of two photons in the same

direction will give the correlation with probability 1, then this will

be experimental evidence not only a miracle, but also absurdity.

As for the article “Loophole-free Bell inequality violation with

superconducting circuits” to which you have sent the link, such

publications only discredit claims about the refutation of realism. I

am a specialist primarily in superconductivity. I know that no

phenomenon observed in superconductors forces us to abandon realism,

as the Stern-Gerlach effect does. Feynman in his Lectures on Physics

noticed that macroscopic quantum phenomena, unlike microscopic

phenomena, are described realistically. I know that the contradiction

of superconducting phenomena with macroscopic realism was invented by

Anthony Leggett without any reason. But most people believe the Nobel

Prize winner.

[1] Greenberger, D.M., Horne, M.A., Shimony, A., Zeilinger, A., Bell’s

theorem without inequalities. Am. J. Phys. 58, 1131–1143 (1990)

With best wishes,

Alexey

ср, 12 июл. 2023 г. в 18:47, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Jul 12, 2023, 2:01:42 PMJul 12

to Алексей Никулов, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Chantal Roth

If you want to choose between local realism and QM then you don't need a loophole free experiment. Every EPR experiment confirms QM and gives results contrary to the local realist predictions.

Cheers

Loophole free measurements play a different purpose. They are independent of QM. They don't test QM. They test nature against any possible local realist model. Even ones undreamt of. They are technically fascinating, but the results don't seem important to me.

Cheers

Mark

Jul 12, 2023, 2:11:24 PMJul 12

to Mark Hadley, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Chantal Roth

Dear Mark,

Can you give me links to publications that describe reliable

experimental confirmations of the EPR-B correlation?

With best wishes,

Alexey

ср, 12 июл. 2023 г. в 21:01, Mark Hadley <sunshine...@googlemail.com>:

Can you give me links to publications that describe reliable

experimental confirmations of the EPR-B correlation?

With best wishes,

Alexey

ср, 12 июл. 2023 г. в 21:01, Mark Hadley <sunshine...@googlemail.com>:

Jul 12, 2023, 8:01:13 PMJul 12

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Alexey

Experiments never give perfect correlations, you should know that. Experiments might give strong statistical evidence of close to perfect correlations.

If your question is a rhetorical question then please just say so.

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

Experiments never give perfect correlations, you should know that. Experiments might give strong statistical evidence of close to perfect correlations.

If your question is a rhetorical question then please just say so.

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

Jul 13, 2023, 4:01:44 AMJul 13

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

Of course, I know that experiments never give perfect correlations.

The perfect EPR-B correlation cannot be observed at least because two

analyzers spaced apart in space cannot be oriented strictly in

parallel. But we can talk about confirming the miracle postulated by

Bohm if the correlation will be significantly higher than 0.5. The

loopholes that exist during the experimental verification of Bell's

inequalities, are absent in this experiment. Therefore, I do not

understand the meaning of Bell's inequalities and the long-term

disputes about their violation. I think these pointless disputes were

provoked by the theory of hidden variables, and the misunderstanding

that this theory is impossible without the trick with measurement.

With best wishes,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 03:01, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Of course, I know that experiments never give perfect correlations.

The perfect EPR-B correlation cannot be observed at least because two

analyzers spaced apart in space cannot be oriented strictly in

parallel. But we can talk about confirming the miracle postulated by

Bohm if the correlation will be significantly higher than 0.5. The

loopholes that exist during the experimental verification of Bell's

inequalities, are absent in this experiment. Therefore, I do not

understand the meaning of Bell's inequalities and the long-term

disputes about their violation. I think these pointless disputes were

provoked by the theory of hidden variables, and the misunderstanding

that this theory is impossible without the trick with measurement.

With best wishes,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 03:01, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Jul 13, 2023, 4:37:55 AMJul 13

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

We already discussed that spatial orientations are irrelevant. The endless pointless discussions are a result of people using dogmas they learnt as physics undergraduates instead of careful thought.

Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone

Jul 13, 2023, 5:06:36 AMJul 13

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

Your statement “that spatial orientations are irrelevant” causes

extreme surprise. What meaning can the EPR-B correlation and Bell's

inequalities have without spatial orientations? Bohm postulated that

the perfect EPR-B correlation should be observed when two analyzers

have the same spatial orientation. The angle ‘a’ and ‘b’ in

expressions (3) and (4) of the Bell 1981 paper about ‘Bertlmann's

socks’ describe different spatial orientations of two analyzers.

With best wishes,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 11:37, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Your statement “that spatial orientations are irrelevant” causes

extreme surprise. What meaning can the EPR-B correlation and Bell's

inequalities have without spatial orientations? Bohm postulated that

the perfect EPR-B correlation should be observed when two analyzers

have the same spatial orientation. The angle ‘a’ and ‘b’ in

expressions (3) and (4) of the Bell 1981 paper about ‘Bertlmann's

socks’ describe different spatial orientations of two analyzers.

With best wishes,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 11:37, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Jul 13, 2023, 5:38:42 AMJul 13

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

You should not be surprised. We have discussed this before many times.

QM is an abstract framework. The EPR-B correlations are derived by using standard QM calculations from the QM description of two two-level systems in a certain entangled state. The observables of each system can be parametrised by the points on the unit sphere S^2. Those points do not need to represent physical directions in space.

QM is an abstract framework. The EPR-B correlations are derived by using standard QM calculations from the QM description of two two-level systems in a certain entangled state. The observables of each system can be parametrised by the points on the unit sphere S^2. Those points do not need to represent physical directions in space.

Jul 13, 2023, 6:05:09 AMJul 13

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

You surprise me more and more. You don't seem to understand the

meaning of the EPR-B correlation and Bell's inequalities at all, as

well as quantum mechanics. You do not understand that standard QM

cannot predict the EPR-B correlation and violation of Bell's

inequalities because of its principle that operators acting on

different particles commute. You do not understand that spin states of

entangled particles cannot mathematically exist in the real

three-dimensional space and can be created by the mind of the observer

at observation. I see that popularity has played a cruel joke on

Bell's inequalities. Most of those who write and argue about Bell's

inequalities do not understand their sense.

With best wishes,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 12:38, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

You surprise me more and more. You don't seem to understand the

meaning of the EPR-B correlation and Bell's inequalities at all, as

well as quantum mechanics. You do not understand that standard QM

cannot predict the EPR-B correlation and violation of Bell's

inequalities because of its principle that operators acting on

different particles commute. You do not understand that spin states of

entangled particles cannot mathematically exist in the real

three-dimensional space and can be created by the mind of the observer

at observation. I see that popularity has played a cruel joke on

Bell's inequalities. Most of those who write and argue about Bell's

inequalities do not understand their sense.

With best wishes,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 12:38, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Jul 13, 2023, 6:22:28 AMJul 13

to Алексей Никулов, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Chantal Roth

Alexey,

What us the truck that you refer to?

Jul 13, 2023, 6:28:35 AMJul 13

to Алексей Никулов, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Chantal Roth

Dear Alexey,

The EPR correlations don't make assumptions about commutivity. QM does make predictions. And those predictions are confirmed by experiment.

Also I don't think they require the non commutivity that you describe.

Show us a calculation that you think makes a false commutivity assumption.

Cheers

Mark

Jul 13, 2023, 7:12:52 AMJul 13

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Sorry Alexei

You don’t surprise me at all, we have been over all this ground so many times before, and you quite simply do not understand the present day formalism of quantum mechanics. You wrote "You do not understand that standard QM

cannot predict the EPR-B correlation and violation of Bell’s inequalities because of its principle that operators acting on different particles commute.” I do understand it very well. You are the only person I know who doesn’t.

Richard

You don’t surprise me at all, we have been over all this ground so many times before, and you quite simply do not understand the present day formalism of quantum mechanics. You wrote "You do not understand that standard QM

cannot predict the EPR-B correlation and violation of Bell’s inequalities because of its principle that operators acting on different particles commute.” I do understand it very well. You are the only person I know who doesn’t.

Richard

Jul 14, 2023, 11:01:30 AMJul 14

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

I am glad that you understand that standard QM cannot predict the

EPR-B correlation and violation of Bell’s inequalities. But I cannot

be the only person you know who doesn't understand this obvious fact.

Mark wrote that “Every EPR experiment confirms QM and gives results

contrary to the local realist predictions”. Moreover authors of almost

all publications are sure that Bell showed that quantum mechanics

predicts correlations that violate his inequalities. The only

publication, as far as I know, in which it is argued that quantum

mechanics cannot predict the EPR correlation and violation of Bell

inequalities is my paper [1]. I demonstrate also in this paper that

the principle that operators acting on different particles commute

saves quantum mechanics from predicting an obvious absurdity.

[1] Alexey Nikulov, Physical Thinking and the GHZ Theorem. Found.

Phys. 53, 51 (2023). DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/s10701-023-00693-y ,

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 14:12, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

I am glad that you understand that standard QM cannot predict the

EPR-B correlation and violation of Bell’s inequalities. But I cannot

be the only person you know who doesn't understand this obvious fact.

Mark wrote that “Every EPR experiment confirms QM and gives results

contrary to the local realist predictions”. Moreover authors of almost

all publications are sure that Bell showed that quantum mechanics

predicts correlations that violate his inequalities. The only

publication, as far as I know, in which it is argued that quantum

mechanics cannot predict the EPR correlation and violation of Bell

inequalities is my paper [1]. I demonstrate also in this paper that

the principle that operators acting on different particles commute

saves quantum mechanics from predicting an obvious absurdity.

[1] Alexey Nikulov, Physical Thinking and the GHZ Theorem. Found.

Phys. 53, 51 (2023). DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/s10701-023-00693-y ,

available on ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370581308_Physical_Thinking_and_the_GHZ_Theorem

With best wishes,
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370581308_Physical_Thinking_and_the_GHZ_Theorem

Alexey

чт, 13 июл. 2023 г. в 14:12, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Jul 14, 2023, 2:08:05 PMJul 14

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

I can understand it. It does predict it. You clearly haven’t even read the ETH paper.

You are talking nonsense.

Sent from my iPhone

You are talking nonsense.

Sent from my iPhone

Jul 14, 2023, 10:13:49 PMJul 14

to Richard Gill, Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Forum members,

I apologize in advance if my use of the "reply all" button causes problems. I'm not familiar with the protocol. I've been following this discussion off and on, and I'm not really able to fully participate. However, if you are interested, Prof Gill and I have engaged on this subject before. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291697555_Special_Relativity_and_the_Origin_of_Probability_REV_1

I am still awaiting Prof. Gill's answer to my straightforward question: What is the measure space of quantum theory? Maybe one of you knows.

You can skip pp 10-13 if you please, and go straight to the discussion section.

Cheers,

Tom

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Jul 15, 2023, 6:21:22 AMJul 15

to Алексей Никулов, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Alex,

Religiosity may not mean just the belief on Gods:

“If
measurements of the spin projection of two particles or the
polarization of two photons in the same direction will give the correlation with probability 1, then this will
be experimental evidence not only a **miracle**, but
also absurdity.”

Could I invite you to recall the “Hong–Ou–Mandel” effect?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong%E2%80%93Ou%E2%80%93Mandel_effect

Do
you accept the “miracle” of **two photons in the same direction and precisely
in the same state**, given by the HOM effect? Or would you say that these
worldwide tested results were faked by everyone? Or, at least, mis-interpreted?

How does this fit into your vision? Can you admit you are wrong?

Geraldo

KeyBITS Encryption Technologies LLC

1540 Moorings Drive #2B, Reston VA 20190

E-Mail: GeraldoABarbosa@keybits.tech

Cellphone: 1-443-891-7138 (US) - with WhatsApp

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Jul 15, 2023, 8:13:05 AMJul 15

to Thomas Ray, Richard Gill, Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Chantal Roth

That's an interesting question.

The distinctive, we could say definitive, feature of QM is that it does not have a boolean measure space.

The measure space is context dependent. Once the context is defined it can have a classical measure. Outcomes are eigenvalues of the operator, usually discrete and the probability is from the quadratic expression.

Does that make sense? And have I understood your question correctly?

Cheers

Mark

Jul 15, 2023, 9:18:15 AMJul 15

to Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Thomas Ray

Dear Tom, dear friends

You will have to wait a long time, because, as I told you many times before, I don’t understand your question.

It’s like asking me “when did I stop beating my wife?” The right answer is neither yes nor no. It is obviously (to me) a loaded question. It presupposes some common agreement about what various things mean. But we never established that common agreement.

All the best

Richard

PS I am presently rather pre-occupied with an alleged serial killer nurse in the UK. Lucy Letby. She’s been persecuted for 7 years or more, in what is clearly (to me) a present day witch hunt. The logic of the case is circular. She was always there when suspicious events occurred. But if you look carefully, those events were labelled suspicious because, and if and only if, she was there. No surprise that she was the only nurse who was present at *all* those 22 events. That is the principle evidence brought to the court by the prosecution. The defence has no clue; probably was already convinced she was guilty, and has been desperately trying to convince her that her only hope is to admit guilt. Indeed, it was clear in advance that any jury would likely convict her on the basis of this “evidence” (that’s why the public prosecution sanctioned the trial). The defence advice was therefore sensible. But she did not take their advice and now everyone has a problem. First and foremost: the English tax payer. Aso the parents of the babies. And Lucy herself. The trial has now lasted 10 months and the jury is presents deliberating the 22 charges. Some people say “no smoke without fire”. If there are 22 charges she must have done something. I say: If there are 22 charges and no hard evidence it is most likely that something completely different is going on. I suspect the hospital consultants (medical specialists) and hospital management. I think they pressed the panic button in a collective subconscious conspiracy to avoid investigation of their own mis-behaviour.

The jury may only make use of what they saw and heard in the courtroom. With the emphasis on *only*. The defence made no attempt to defend their client. But in those last nine months, various independent scientists have found the scientific evidence which makes it pretty clear there is no case against Lucy Letby at all. But that evidence may not be brought into the trial. If you try, you get threats from the police. Next time I visit my mother (who worked for Turing in order to save England from fascism) I will get arrested as I pass the border (according to letters I’ve received from Cheshire constabulary).

Jul 16, 2023, 2:30:01 AMJul 16

to GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Geraldo,

I know that miracles are observed. I call a miracle something that our

reason cannot explain. For example, the Stern-Gerlach effect and the

interference of particles at two slits are miracles that our reason

cannot explain. The creators of quantum mechanics have provoked the

illusion, with the help of a trick, that our reason can explain the

miracles. From the trick used by quantum mechanics follows the

prediction of other miracles. For example, Zeilinger considered a

possibility of superluminal transmission of information with the help

of quantum telegraph in [1]. Zeilinger referred in his review article

to the Ph.D. thesis of University of Innsbruck [2] in which the

miracle predicted by quantum mechanics has been corroborated, see the

scheme of the experiment on Fig.1 of our article [3].

I cannot doubt that such miracles as the Stern-Gerlach effect and the

interference of particles at two slits were being observed. But I

doubt that the miracle observed in [2] really was observed, since for

twenty-five years, as far as I know, no one has repeated the

outstanding experiment described in the review article [2]. That's why

I'm asking if anyone knows reliable experimental confirmations of the

EPR correlation.

[1] Zeilinger A., 1999, Experiment and the foundations of quantum

physics. Rev. Mod. Phys. 71, S288-S297 (1999).

[2] Dopfer B., Two experiments on the interference of two-photon

states. PhD Thesis, University of Innsbruck, (1998).

[3] Vitali V. Aristov, Alexey V. Nikulov, The reasons for doubts about

the reality of quantum computer, available at ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326832017_The_reasons_for_doubts_about_the_reality_of_quantum_computer?_sg%5B0%5D=8rSxiJUQAJQcde1vQaYCLuLxs6Sa5P8jzlum0wvuVzjEeK8uCul72k8gHkbIeoDasYr0dXHfevDmvsoDfhItiHmzsqskzrNhiZdvdiXj.OhoT1UnQefx7fHzUe30odsthByIHGC90l7LbwFnviplj7DM5sP29b5oqjX7voXzJrPJam95_K36WTrU2PZfT9Q.

With best wishes,

Alexey

сб, 15 июл. 2023 г. в 13:21, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa

<geraldo...@gmail.com>:

I know that miracles are observed. I call a miracle something that our

reason cannot explain. For example, the Stern-Gerlach effect and the

interference of particles at two slits are miracles that our reason

cannot explain. The creators of quantum mechanics have provoked the

illusion, with the help of a trick, that our reason can explain the

miracles. From the trick used by quantum mechanics follows the

prediction of other miracles. For example, Zeilinger considered a

possibility of superluminal transmission of information with the help

of quantum telegraph in [1]. Zeilinger referred in his review article

to the Ph.D. thesis of University of Innsbruck [2] in which the

miracle predicted by quantum mechanics has been corroborated, see the

scheme of the experiment on Fig.1 of our article [3].

I cannot doubt that such miracles as the Stern-Gerlach effect and the

interference of particles at two slits were being observed. But I

doubt that the miracle observed in [2] really was observed, since for

twenty-five years, as far as I know, no one has repeated the

outstanding experiment described in the review article [2]. That's why

I'm asking if anyone knows reliable experimental confirmations of the

EPR correlation.

[1] Zeilinger A., 1999, Experiment and the foundations of quantum

physics. Rev. Mod. Phys. 71, S288-S297 (1999).

[2] Dopfer B., Two experiments on the interference of two-photon

states. PhD Thesis, University of Innsbruck, (1998).

[3] Vitali V. Aristov, Alexey V. Nikulov, The reasons for doubts about

the reality of quantum computer, available at ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326832017_The_reasons_for_doubts_about_the_reality_of_quantum_computer?_sg%5B0%5D=8rSxiJUQAJQcde1vQaYCLuLxs6Sa5P8jzlum0wvuVzjEeK8uCul72k8gHkbIeoDasYr0dXHfevDmvsoDfhItiHmzsqskzrNhiZdvdiXj.OhoT1UnQefx7fHzUe30odsthByIHGC90l7LbwFnviplj7DM5sP29b5oqjX7voXzJrPJam95_K36WTrU2PZfT9Q.

With best wishes,

Alexey

сб, 15 июл. 2023 г. в 13:21, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa

<geraldo...@gmail.com>:

>

> Alex,

>

> Religiosity may not mean just the belief on Gods:

>

> “If measurements of the spin projection of two particles or the polarization of two photons in the same direction will give the correlation with probability 1, then this will be experimental evidence not only a miracle, but also absurdity.”

>

> Could I invite you to recall the “Hong–Ou–Mandel” effect?

>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong%E2%80%93Ou%E2%80%93Mandel_effect

>

>

>

> Do you accept the “miracle” of two photons in the same direction and precisely in the same state, given by the HOM effect? Or would you say that these worldwide tested results were faked by everyone? Or, at least, mis-interpreted?

>

> How does this fit into your vision? Can you admit you are wrong?

>

>

>

> Geraldo

>

>

> Geraldo A. Barbosa, PhD

> KeyBITS Encryption Technologies LLC

> https://www.keybits.tech/

> 1540 Moorings Drive #2B, Reston VA 20190

> E-Mail: Geraldo...@keybits.tech
> Alex,

>

> Religiosity may not mean just the belief on Gods:

>

> “If measurements of the spin projection of two particles or the polarization of two photons in the same direction will give the correlation with probability 1, then this will be experimental evidence not only a miracle, but also absurdity.”

>

> Could I invite you to recall the “Hong–Ou–Mandel” effect?

>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong%E2%80%93Ou%E2%80%93Mandel_effect

>

>

>

> Do you accept the “miracle” of two photons in the same direction and precisely in the same state, given by the HOM effect? Or would you say that these worldwide tested results were faked by everyone? Or, at least, mis-interpreted?

>

> How does this fit into your vision? Can you admit you are wrong?

>

>

>

> Geraldo

>

>

> Geraldo A. Barbosa, PhD

> KeyBITS Encryption Technologies LLC

> https://www.keybits.tech/

> 1540 Moorings Drive #2B, Reston VA 20190

Jul 16, 2023, 5:22:56 AMJul 16

to Алексей Никулов, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Alexei

It seems that we have been agreeing all along! I too have been proposing, for a long time, in your terminology, that loophole-free Bell experiments are miracles. What happens there cannot be explained by our reason.

It is predicted by quantum mechanics. You call that a trick. I call it a mathematical formalism.

We can become familiar with the mathematics and we can be creative and imaginative with it. And that is the tast that is before us.

Richard

Jul 16, 2023, 8:11:19 AMJul 16

to Алексей Никулов, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Alexey,

You are trying to escape with argumentations. YOU asked a question about two photons and I gave you an answer that contradicts you beliefs.

Again:

Do you believe that the HOM effect shows what you said it is a "miracle" (your words, not mine)?

I(we) am(are) still waiting for an opportunity for a relaxed conversation with you, maybe with a beer mug in a nice place.

Cheers

Geraldo

Jul 16, 2023, 12:13:52 PMJul 16

to Mark Hadley, Thomas Ray, Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Chantal Roth

I agree. QM has a different classical probability space for each experimental context, because it is a framework which describes probabilities of experimental results. It does not contain a mechanism for explaining the generation of those results. The word “mechanics” is a misnomer.

Probability can just as well be taken here in a frequentist or a subjectivist sense. To the working physicist it doesn’t make any difference. The standard axioms of probability follow either from counting arguments or from axioms for making decisions under uncertainty. The mathematical structures of quantum probability and quantum logic are alternative ways to name the objects studied in QM, and emphasize its similarities with classical probability and classical logic. But the fundamental difference is non-commutativity, or if you prefer contextualiseren. Technically, it is a generalization of those classical structures. One could also say it is a specialization of classical mathematical statistics and the field called design of experiments, which both study families of probability models.

Sent from my iPhone

On 15 Jul 2023, at 14:13, Mark Hadley <sunshine...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Jul 18, 2023, 2:07:53 AMJul 18

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Thomas Ray, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

Our reason cannot explain not only loophole-free Bell experiments but

even the Stern-Gerlach effect. Bell made two mistakes: 1) he falsely

decided that von Neumann's proof was false and even foolish; 2) he did

not understand that the EPR correlation was postulated by Bohm and is

not predicted by quantum mechanics. We cannot explain loophole-free

Bell experiments since we cannot explain 1) the Stern-Gerlach effect

and 2) how the mind of Alice can create the spin state of Bob’s

particle.

No mathematical formalism is in the trick used by the creators of

quantum mechanics. The mathematician von Neumann divided in 1932

quantum mechanics into the trick, which he called Process 1, and a

mathematical formalism, which he called Process 2. Process 1 is the

discontinuous change of quantum state at the observation which cannot

be described in any way. Process 2 is the continuous deterministic

change of the quantum state of an isolated system with time according

to a Schrodinger’s wave equation. The whole story of Bell's

inequalities became possible because scientists, with the exception

of a few, such as Hugh Everett, did not want to admit that Process 1

belongs to the domain of psychology rather than physics.

With best wishes,

Alexey

вс, 16 июл. 2023 г. в 19:13, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Our reason cannot explain not only loophole-free Bell experiments but

even the Stern-Gerlach effect. Bell made two mistakes: 1) he falsely

decided that von Neumann's proof was false and even foolish; 2) he did

not understand that the EPR correlation was postulated by Bohm and is

not predicted by quantum mechanics. We cannot explain loophole-free

Bell experiments since we cannot explain 1) the Stern-Gerlach effect

and 2) how the mind of Alice can create the spin state of Bob’s

particle.

No mathematical formalism is in the trick used by the creators of

quantum mechanics. The mathematician von Neumann divided in 1932

quantum mechanics into the trick, which he called Process 1, and a

mathematical formalism, which he called Process 2. Process 1 is the

discontinuous change of quantum state at the observation which cannot

be described in any way. Process 2 is the continuous deterministic

change of the quantum state of an isolated system with time according

to a Schrodinger’s wave equation. The whole story of Bell's

inequalities became possible because scientists, with the exception

of a few, such as Hugh Everett, did not want to admit that Process 1

belongs to the domain of psychology rather than physics.

With best wishes,

Alexey

вс, 16 июл. 2023 г. в 19:13, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:

Jul 18, 2023, 3:13:32 AMJul 18

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Mark Hadley, Thomas Ray, Chantal Roth

Dear Alexei

I think you don’t understand maths. Bell did not make those two mistakes.

1) Von Neumann’s proof was indeed silly.

2) The EPR-B correlation *is* predicted by quantum mechanics.

I am afraid you are pretty much alone with these ideas.

Process 1 does not belong to the domain of psychology. It does belong to the domain of information theory, which has got nothing whatever to do with psychology.

I think you don’t understand maths. Bell did not make those two mistakes.

1) Von Neumann’s proof was indeed silly.

2) The EPR-B correlation *is* predicted by quantum mechanics.

I am afraid you are pretty much alone with these ideas.

Process 1 does not belong to the domain of psychology. It does belong to the domain of information theory, which has got nothing whatever to do with psychology.

Jul 18, 2023, 4:22:37 AMJul 18

to GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Geraldo,

You have not answered my question. I asked about reliable experimental

confirmations of the EPR correlation postulated by Bohm. It seems to

me that you are trying to escape from the answer to the question "Do

you know reliable experimental confirmations of the EPR correlation?"

It may be that the HOM effect was observed. But the observation of one

miracle does not prove the possibility of observing another miracle,

even if this miracle is predicted by quantum mechanics, in contrast to

the EPR correlation. Quantum mechanics predicts the miracle considered

in the review article [1]. But this miracle was observed only by B.

Dopfer [2]. Therefore, I doubt that this miracle is really being

observed.

A Reviewer of my manuscript “Quantum register cannot be real” wrote

that “The majority of physicists working in quantum mechanics are

instrumentalists”. I am not sure that all these physicists understand

they are instrumentalists. But quantum mechanics can be valid only

according to the instrumentalist view, which claims that physical

theory should describe and predict only experimental facts. The

criticism of the instrumentalist view is in Chapter 1 “The Theory of

Everything” of the book “The Fabric of Reality” [3] written by David

Deutsch. Deutsch argued that a real device, for example an

interstellar spaceship, can be made on a theory explaining

experimental results rather than a theory which only predicts the

outcomes of experiments. But Deutsch did not take into account that no

outcomes of experiments can be predicted by a theory which only

describes the known outcomes of experiments rather than a reality.

Misunderstanding of this obvious logic is the main mistake of

Heisenberg and other creators of quantum mechanics, which led to a

mass delusion, manifested in particular in the idea of quantum

computing and the Nobel Prize in 2022.

[1] Zeilinger A., Experiment and the foundations of quantum physics.

With best wishes,

Alexey

вс, 16 июл. 2023 г. в 15:11, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa

<geraldo...@gmail.com>:

You have not answered my question. I asked about reliable experimental

confirmations of the EPR correlation postulated by Bohm. It seems to

me that you are trying to escape from the answer to the question "Do

you know reliable experimental confirmations of the EPR correlation?"

It may be that the HOM effect was observed. But the observation of one

miracle does not prove the possibility of observing another miracle,

even if this miracle is predicted by quantum mechanics, in contrast to

the EPR correlation. Quantum mechanics predicts the miracle considered

in the review article [1]. But this miracle was observed only by B.

Dopfer [2]. Therefore, I doubt that this miracle is really being

observed.

A Reviewer of my manuscript “Quantum register cannot be real” wrote

that “The majority of physicists working in quantum mechanics are

instrumentalists”. I am not sure that all these physicists understand

they are instrumentalists. But quantum mechanics can be valid only

according to the instrumentalist view, which claims that physical

theory should describe and predict only experimental facts. The

criticism of the instrumentalist view is in Chapter 1 “The Theory of

Everything” of the book “The Fabric of Reality” [3] written by David

Deutsch. Deutsch argued that a real device, for example an

interstellar spaceship, can be made on a theory explaining

experimental results rather than a theory which only predicts the

outcomes of experiments. But Deutsch did not take into account that no

outcomes of experiments can be predicted by a theory which only

describes the known outcomes of experiments rather than a reality.

Misunderstanding of this obvious logic is the main mistake of

Heisenberg and other creators of quantum mechanics, which led to a

mass delusion, manifested in particular in the idea of quantum

computing and the Nobel Prize in 2022.

[1] Zeilinger A., Experiment and the foundations of quantum physics.

Rev. Mod. Phys. 71, S288-S297 (1999).

[2] Dopfer B., Two experiments on the interference of two-photon

states. PhD Thesis, University of Innsbruck, (1998).

[3] D. Deutsch, The Fabric of Reality. The Penguin Press, 1997.
[2] Dopfer B., Two experiments on the interference of two-photon

states. PhD Thesis, University of Innsbruck, (1998).

With best wishes,

Alexey

вс, 16 июл. 2023 г. в 15:11, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa

<geraldo...@gmail.com>:

Jul 19, 2023, 6:52:00 AMJul 19

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

1) Can you explain why von Neumann’s proof was silly?

2) How can quantum mechanics predict the EPR-B correlation if

according to its principle that operators acting on different

particles commute measurement of a particle A cannot change the

quantum state of other particle B?

Bell has also been much alone for a long time with his ideas about the

inadequacy of quantum mechanics.

If you do not agree with Everett that Process 1 belongs to the domain

of psychology, then you should explain how information theory, which

has nothing to do with psychology, can describe an instantaneous and

non-local change in the quantum state because of observation.

With best wishes,

Alexey

вт, 18 июл. 2023 г. в 11:29, Алексей Никулов <nikulo...@gmail.com>:

1) Can you explain why von Neumann’s proof was silly?

2) How can quantum mechanics predict the EPR-B correlation if

according to its principle that operators acting on different

particles commute measurement of a particle A cannot change the

quantum state of other particle B?

Bell has also been much alone for a long time with his ideas about the

inadequacy of quantum mechanics.

If you do not agree with Everett that Process 1 belongs to the domain

of psychology, then you should explain how information theory, which

has nothing to do with psychology, can describe an instantaneous and

non-local change in the quantum state because of observation.

With best wishes,

Alexey

вт, 18 июл. 2023 г. в 11:29, Алексей Никулов <nikulo...@gmail.com>:

Jul 19, 2023, 9:26:29 AMJul 19

to Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

I can, but I am not going to, because I am trying to correct a miscarriage of justice involving an alleged serial killer nurse, and I have learnt the hard way, that it is not possible to get maths across to you. Maybe somebody else would like to try.

You should try to learn the modern conception of what a quantum state is. You say that QM says that measurement of particle A does not change the state of particle B. The reduced state of particle B is indeed not changed by measurement of particle A. The joint state of particle A and particle B is changed by measurement of particle A. And the joint state of particle A and particle B given particle A was measured, and what the outcome of the measurement was, is something else again.

Maybe somebody else can try to explain to Alexei how most people nowadays understand the notion of quantum state, joint state, reduced state?

You should try to learn the modern conception of what a quantum state is. You say that QM says that measurement of particle A does not change the state of particle B. The reduced state of particle B is indeed not changed by measurement of particle A. The joint state of particle A and particle B is changed by measurement of particle A. And the joint state of particle A and particle B given particle A was measured, and what the outcome of the measurement was, is something else again.

Maybe somebody else can try to explain to Alexei how most people nowadays understand the notion of quantum state, joint state, reduced state?

Jul 19, 2023, 9:55:32 AMJul 19

to Richard Gill, Алексей Никулов, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Jan-Åke Larsson, Chantal Roth

There is an unnecessary short cut in the maths which Alexey has seen and he has personally interpreted it as an absurd physical effect.

Many people are more comfortable using state vectors than state operators. And it is therefore convenient to write a state vector expression once the setting at A is known. It is not necessaryy to do that. It may mislead some people into thinking that A influences B.

If Alexey learns to use the state operator expressions he will see that the EPR correlations can be predicted without absurdity and without the non commuting operators that trouble him.

Cheers

Mark

Jul 20, 2023, 3:50:47 AMJul 20

to Richard Gill, Bell Inequalities and quantum foundations, GeraldoAlexandreBarbosa, Jan-Åke Larsson, Mark Hadley, Chantal Roth

Dear Richard,

I know how most people nowadays understand the notion of quantum

state, joint state, reduced state. I demonstrate in the article [1],

first of all on the example of the GHZ theorem that the rejection of

realism by creators of quantum mechanics has resulted in the modern

degradation of physical thinking. The degradation of physical thinking

occurred primarily because almost all scientists are naive realists.

The naive realists are also the authors of publications, such as

[2,3], who refute realism, but consider, like you, the EPR correlation

as a consequence of a real existence the joint state of particle A and

particle B. They not only do not understand, but also do not want to

understand that the only possible definition of EPR correlation is the

definition given by Schrodinger in 1935, as the entanglement of our

knowledge.

I prove mathematically in the article [1] that the spin states of

entangled particles cannot exist in the real three-dimensional space,

since the rotation operators of the coordinate system cannot be

applicable to them. Misunderstanding of this mathematical fact is one

of the main mistakes not only of the authors [2,3] who thought that

entangled particles can have eigenstates.

I think you're claiming that von Neumann’s proof was indeed silly just

because you, like most people believe John Bell and David Mermin who

claimed this. You don't want to understand that they claimed this only

because they believed, without any justification, that the trick with

‘measurement’ is much better than the trick with observation.

[1] Alexey Nikulov, Physical Thinking and the GHZ Theorem. Found.

Phys. 53, 51 (2023). DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/s10701-023-00693-y

[2] Greenberger, D.M., Horne, M.A., Zeilinger, A. In: Kafatos, M.

(ed.) Bells Theorem, Quantum Theory and Conceptions of the Universe,

pp. 73–76. Kluwer Academic, Dordrecht (1989) 39.

[3] Greenberger, D.M., Horne, M.A., Shimony, A., Zeilinger, A.: Bell’s

I know how most people nowadays understand the notion of quantum

state, joint state, reduced state. I demonstrate in the article [1],

first of all on the example of the GHZ theorem that the rejection of

realism by creators of quantum mechanics has resulted in the modern

degradation of physical thinking. The degradation of physical thinking

occurred primarily because almost all scientists are naive realists.

The naive realists are also the authors of publications, such as

[2,3], who refute realism, but consider, like you, the EPR correlation

as a consequence of a real existence the joint state of particle A and

particle B. They not only do not understand, but also do not want to

understand that the only possible definition of EPR correlation is the

definition given by Schrodinger in 1935, as the entanglement of our

knowledge.

I prove mathematically in the article [1] that the spin states of

entangled particles cannot exist in the real three-dimensional space,

since the rotation operators of the coordinate system cannot be

applicable to them. Misunderstanding of this mathematical fact is one

of the main mistakes not only of the authors [2,3] who thought that

entangled particles can have eigenstates.

I think you're claiming that von Neumann’s proof was indeed silly just

because you, like most people believe John Bell and David Mermin who

claimed this. You don't want to understand that they claimed this only

because they believed, without any justification, that the trick with

‘measurement’ is much better than the trick with observation.

[1] Alexey Nikulov, Physical Thinking and the GHZ Theorem. Found.

Phys. 53, 51 (2023). DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/s10701-023-00693-y

[2] Greenberger, D.M., Horne, M.A., Zeilinger, A. In: Kafatos, M.

(ed.) Bells Theorem, Quantum Theory and Conceptions of the Universe,

pp. 73–76. Kluwer Academic, Dordrecht (1989) 39.

[3] Greenberger, D.M., Horne, M.A., Shimony, A., Zeilinger, A.: Bell’s

theorem without inequalities. Am. J. Phys. 58, 1131–1143 (1990)

With best wishes,

Alexey

ср, 19 июл. 2023 г. в 16:26, Richard Gill <gill...@gmail.com>:
With best wishes,

Alexey

Jul 20, 2023, 4:06:54 AMJul 20