FRS radio recommendations for Albany CERT Radio presentation?

[Michael Gold]

A new working group called Albany CERT Radio will give a public presentation on Sept 30, and it will describe use of ham, GMRS, and FRS during emergencies. Some hams are presenting but I'm helping prepare the slides. There is a slide titled "Typical FRS Radio" that needs a picture, preferably of some radio that people here can recommend to typical users and "block captains" (Albany is trying to recruit dozens of these...)

Based on some traffic I've heard, maybe Radioddity is a good choice of FRS brands. But I have zero experience with FRS and wonder if people here have suggestions for what to tell the general public.

[Doug M]

The Radioodity, Retevis and similar FRS radios work and are certainly cheap enough. One concern I have is I believe they only use rechargeable battery packs. These types of radios often sit in a drawer until needed, and they may have become discharged. If the power is out in a disaster, then what?

We recommend something like the Motorola T200. More expensive but you can drop in AA batteries if the rechargeable pack dies. 

-Doug

------------------------------------------
 Doug Mosher

 OCP&R Program Manager
 Oakland Firesafe Council
 415.297.7457
 www.oaklandcpandr.org

   

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 21:17 Michael Gold <contac...@gmail.com> wrote:

A new working group called Albany CERT Radio will give a public presentation on Sept 30, and it will describe use of ham, GMRS, and FRS during emergencies. Some hams are presenting but I'm helping prepare the slides. There is a slide titled "Typical FRS Radio" that needs a picture, preferably of some radio that people here can recommend to typical users and "block captains" (Albany is trying to recruit dozens of these...)

Based on some traffic I've heard, maybe Radioddity is a good choice of FRS brands. But I have zero experience with FRS and wonder if people here have suggestions for what to tell the general public.

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[Paul Nasman]

Michael,

I've attached a handout we used to train our block captains using Motorola T260 radios.  We found these at a good price while shopping around, and basic operation has been pretty easy to pick up.  In our practice tests these communicate reliably, house-to-house, at a range of two city blocks.  So, a it would be a representative bubble pack product.

I've attached an instruction sheet I put together.  It's a word document, so you should be able to pull elements off of it for a presentation.  One comment -- I used the abbreviation IE in place of PL, because Motorola refers to this feature as an "interference eliminator."  If I had it to do again, I'd use PL, because that seems to be the most common term.

Questions / comments welcome.  Good luck with your presentation.

Paul

WRDG298

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020, 09:40:18 PM PDT, Michael Gold <contac...@gmail.com> wrote:

A new working group called Albany CERT Radio will give a public presentation on Sept 30, and it will describe use of ham, GMRS, and FRS during emergencies. Some hams are presenting but I'm helping prepare the slides. There is a slide titled "Typical FRS Radio" that needs a picture, preferably of some radio that people here can recommend to typical users and "block captains" (Albany is trying to recruit dozens of these...)

Based on some traffic I've heard, maybe Radioddity is a good choice of FRS brands. But I have zero experience with FRS and wonder if people here have suggestions for what to tell the general public.

[Paul Nasman]

Hi, Doug!

We're pretty much on same track here (as usual!).  Our neighborhood CERT tested the T200 against the T260 in a perimeter walkaround and found that the T260 performed slightly better in our environment.  Your mileage may vary.  :-)

Totally agree with your comments about rechargeable batteries.  We did not hand them out, for the reasons you described.  We distributed the radios in plastic baggies with three extra sets of alkaline batteries, an instruction card, and the admonition to "keep this in your go bag" except for radio practice.  Hopefully this will work if we need them in a grab-and-go situation.

Best,

Paul

WRDG298

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[Sierra Boyd]

Hi Michael,

Sounds like a good presentation. I am interested in attending. Who may I contact?

Best,

--sierra

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 9:17 PM Michael Gold <contac...@gmail.com> wrote:

A new working group called Albany CERT Radio will give a public presentation on Sept 30, and it will describe use of ham, GMRS, and FRS during emergencies. Some hams are presenting but I'm helping prepare the slides. There is a slide titled "Typical FRS Radio" that needs a picture, preferably of some radio that people here can recommend to typical users and "block captains" (Albany is trying to recruit dozens of these...)

Based on some traffic I've heard, maybe Radioddity is a good choice of FRS brands. But I have zero experience with FRS and wonder if people here have suggestions for what to tell the general public.

--

[Robert McNicholas]

Hi folks,

I concur with the T260 recommendation. I think these were the cheapest
in the Motorola Talkabout series which support 2 watts on the channels
where allowed - the cheaper ones were 0.5 watts everywhere. And, as
Paul mentions, they come with a rechargeable battery pack (good for
day-to-day use) but can also run directly on AA batteries (no adapter
needed). I'm attaching a handout I made for my CERT area, but it is a
year old and the prices are surely out of date.

Regards,

-Rob McNicholas
El Cerrito CERT

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[Stuart Strickland]

Hi All,

I recently evaluated several commonly available FRS and GMRS radios for our neighborhood CERT unit in Berkeley. I evaluated them for range, ease of use, battery/charge life, and a couple of other parameters. Bearing in mind that many people in our neighborhood would struggle with anything more technologically complicated than a coffee maker, we settled on two choices for FRS radios:

- For the response team leads who need to be able to cover the full range of our neighborhood, can be counted on to keep their batteries charged, and can remember how to set PL codes, we selected the Midland LXT630 (> $40). None of the cheaper radios we tried could reliably cover the whole neighborhood.

- For those who needed a simple interface, disposable batteries, and an indoor-to-indoor range of just over half the area of our neighborhood, we settled on the Midland T20 (< $9).

The communications team, which I lead, has a couple of Wouxun KG-805G GMRS radios and a Kenwood TH-D74A to maintain contact with the outside world.

Stuart

> On Sep 23, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Robert McNicholas <rob.mcn...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> <CERT Radio Buying Guide.pdf>

[Richard Perlman]

Stuart:

I have a couple of comments in your post.

#1) Use if PL. It is strongly recommended by almost every emergency radio group I have looked at, that PL not be deployed.  There are several reasons beyond people simply getting the settings wrong for either receive or transmit. With PL enabled, the radio operator has no means to know if the channel is bust and can easily stomp on another station's transmission. By the same token, if PL is enabled, the station operator will no longer be aware of what is going on around them. This results in a loss of situational awareness.  To avoid interference with neighboring groups, it is important to coordinate with them to avoid using the same channels. Doing so will pretty much eliminate the perceived need for PL.

#2) Use of rechargeable batteries. The basic problem with most rechargeable batteries is that they run at a lower voltage, 1.2 vs.1.5 volts per battery, and will therefore reach minimal operating voltage sooner and not have anything close to the same useful life when compared to a set of alkaline batteries.  Standard rechargeable batteries also have a much faster internal discharge rate (I.e. shorter shelf life when charged) than Alkalines. These problems are compounded by the time and effort necessary to recharge the battery pack when it runs out. That time loss is bad enough on its own,  but made much worse when it happens to someone in a leadership position.  For that reason, it is probably best to have everyone use the same replaceable batteries.

My suggestion for batteries is to have each person prepare three or four sets of batteries. Set one goes into the radio, sets two, three, etc. go into baggies, each baggie is numbered 2 through N.  Once a year, on a memorable, pre-determined date (4th of July, New Year's Day, Superbowl, etc.) the batteries in the radio are removed and can be used in other equipment, like flashlights, toys, etc. The batteries from bag 2 go into the radio, bag 3's batteries go into bag 2, etc and new batteries go into the last bag.  In this manner, you always have fresh batteries in the radio and avoid the potential for leakage and internal damage.  The annual battery swap can be done individually or as a group. But, it is best to pick a common day and send out reminders.  Also, don't forget to maintain the same system for radios in the local cache. In this case, it is a good idea to number the radios and the associated battery bags so they can be kept together.

BTW, there is one exception to the use of rechargeable batteries. Eneloop Batteries (developed by Panasonic, but now sold by several vendors) have much longer shelf life and slower discharge rates in use.  But, you would still need at least 3 sets of batteries per radio.

Richard

[Paul Nasman]

Stuart and others,

Thanks for sharing all the information.  It's interesting to see how local groups have tailored their equipment choices to requirements, resources, and operating strategy.  I only wish the various manufacturers had agreed on a consistent "channel" numbering scheme for consumer radios.

I am very much in favor of coordinating the "main" frequencies among organized CERT groups in the area, for all the reasons you might imagine.  :-)

Best,

Paul

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[Doug Mosher]

Great info all, thank you!

Here's a document on neighborhood FRS radio communications that I put together maybe 12 years ago and updated now and again. It's definitely dated and doesn't mention the GENOAK or other GMRS repeaters, but it might have something useful for someone. Maybe.

I plan to update this again when I can, plus add an FRS tab on our site (genoak.org) to cover FRS intra-neighborhood communications. FRS/GMRS/Ham is starting to become better connected, at least in practice if not procedure (working on that) via this attached diagram.

-Doug

---------------------------------------------
 Doug Mosher
 OCP&R Program Manager
 Oakland Firesafe Council
 415.297.7457
 www.oaklandcpandr.org

[Don WQXJ891/NI6A]

I am in complete agreement with Richard's kind suggestions.  Using Private Line (PL) tones as filters are not recommended for a host of reasons. Radios that have both rechargeable battery capabilities and can also take alkaline batteries (AA or AAA) greatly will add to our reliability and robustness. Although it would be easier for training purposes if operating instructions were the same, the reality is that each model and brand will continue to differ. Old models will become discontinued and new models will have to be accommodated. I'll add that both Motorola and Midland tend to hide their radio output power while publishing overly optimistic reports of range. Rob's Motorola T-260 at least can be identified as a 2 watt radio in hi-power mode. Others are less than 1/2 watt. That's a 6 dB difference and would appreciably make the difference in marginal ranges. 

I like Paul's identification of coordinating channels as co-channel interference is problematic. It would be a large undertaking IMO. We need to acknowledge that the 22 FRS channels will most likely be crowded during a major disaster.

Although the original question was about  FRS radio instruction, I suggest that any instruction begin with the advantage of GMRS while discouraging FRS unless one is in financial distress. Encouraging GMRS allows for an external outdoor gain antenna, 5 watts, and repeater operation such as the use of the BECERTAINN Berkeley repeater). Thus, one's range of operation is considerably increased. The only downside is the monetary outlay. Still, a functional GMRS radio can be had for $60-$80. A one-time license fee of $70 for the entire family. For a young family that might mean $1 a year over a period of 30 years assuming present licensees would be grandfathered as to the original license contract. In any case, recommend GMRS first, then for those on tight budgets recommend FRS as a downgraded cheap alternative. As we all know, amateur radio offers almost unlimited bandwidth, but I would imagine that there would not be much traction accomplished there. 

I am happy to see Albany CERT stepping forward regarding EmComm. Well done!

73,

Don, wqxj891

[Michael Gold]

Sierra Boyd wrote:

> I am interested in attending. Who may I contact?

The meeting agenda is here

https://www.albanyca.org/home/showdocument?id=45656

And it links to a registration page, which I might as well copy here too

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/albany-cert-community-meeting-intro-to-radio-communications-tickets-119702353963

I'm not the presenter or organizer, but let me know if any links aren't working for you.

[Richard Perlman]

Don:

One important thing to note about GMRS vs. or in coordination with FRS is that since the FCC's revision of the part 95 rules in 2017, the two services share all the FRS frequencies. GMRS does benefit from 8 additional frequencies in the 467mHz portion of the band. But, these channels are limited to use as repeater inputs.  However, in some cases, the power and bandwidth limits are different for the two services. So, depending on how use of the two services is coordinated, you could have an FRS user running 2 watts narrowband on the same channel as a GMRS user running 50 watts wideband. This could result in cases where the GMRS user sounded distorted to the FRS user and the FRS user could not be heard at all by the GMRS user.  So, if a group is going to deploy both FRS and GMRS certified radios it is imperative that the GMRS radios be properly configured.  

BTW, since September 2019 the former GMRS/FRS combined radios can no longer be sold in the US. Any new FCC-certified radios will be authorized for one service or the other, but not both.

Final note. If a group is using non-certified radio gear it is doubly important to make sure the configuration conforms to the planned usage (GMRS or FRS). This is because these radios have no pre-configuration for either service and usually come with a default setting that applies to all channels.

Richard

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 2:19:59 AM UTC+2 Don WQXJ891/NI6A wrote:

...Although the original question was about  FRS radio instruction, I suggest that any instruction begin with the advantage of GMRS while discouraging FRS unless one is in financial distress. Encouraging GMRS allows for an external outdoor gain antenna, 5 watts, and repeater operation such as the use of the BECERTAINN Berkeley repeater). 

[Don WQXJ891/NI6A]

Richard, excellent points and an interesting experiment. I have not seen any prohibitions in the FCC rules against GMRS and FRS comms, so I imagine this is not a significant problem.

We have been running nets for the past few years using both gmrs and frs radios on the same channels (with the exception of ch. 8-14)  with no noticeable distortion problems so far. I would like to hear from others if they have experienced any incompatibilities between GMRS and FRS radios communicating with one another. For example, the East Bay GMRS/FRS net runs on the first Wednesday of the month at 1100 on Ch 15 simplex, with both FRS and GMRS stations checking in. So far so good. It seems that such incompatibilities could be tested easily. 

Has anyone actually done these tests and what are their metrics?

Thanks

Don

[Richard Perlman]

Don:

You are correct, there is no prohibition regarding communications between GMRS certified radios (with licensed users) and FRS radios (licensed by rule).  However, the lack of problems so far may be due in part to the abundance of old combined GMRS/FRS radios. In these radios, the power and bandwidth limits were roughly enforced. For example, bandwidth could not be changed and power was limited to 5 watts, though 2 watts was a more common maximum. The difference between 0.5 watts and 2 watts is only 6db.  So, there would be some inequality in range, but physical location is likely to be an even bigger factor.

However, if you add in a true GMRS radio, the configurations options become greater. Depending on the channel, power can be up to 50 watts and bandwidth is also selectable. The difference between 0.5 watts and 50 watts is 20db!

So, I would agree that mismatch of radio settings is not yet a major problem. This is mostly because the vast majority of radios in the field are combined GMRS/FRS. However, if more people move to GMRS only radios and start configuring those radios without local guidance, problems will start to happen.

So, I'd agree, some testing would be a good idea.  For example, use channel 15 and set the FRS radio to high power (probably ~2 watts) and the GMRS radio to broadband @ 50 watts. Then start moving apart.

BTW, there is another issue I did not previously note. If a local FRS group selects a channel between 15 and 22 they could possibly be using the output frequency of a local repeater. This would have little, or no, impact on the repeater users. But, it might render the FRS radios useless.

BTW, one last thought that has not yet been mentioned in this discussion.  While it is tempting for groups to select the highest power available, this is usually a poor idea. In fact, groups should select the lowest power that works in their situation. This is for 2 reasons: avoidance of interference with other nearby stations, and significant increase in battery life.

All the more reason to plan carefully.

Richard

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 10:21:08 AM UTC+2 Don WQXJ891/NI6A wrote:

... I have not seen any prohibitions in the FCC rules against GMRS and FRS comms, so I imagine this is not a significant problem.

[Don WQXJ891/NI6A]

Richard,

Maybe we should create another thread for operating procedures and another regarding incompatibilities between FRS and GMRS, as the original question was regarding a recommendation of a FRS radio for the Albany CERT class. Granted the class instructor should mention the advantages of GMRS while encouraging people to get their licenses and invest a few dollars more in GMRS radios, but I do think that we may be over-thinking possible problems. Let us continue this on another thread or privately.

Just a short note, I am sure that any decent instructor will recommend operators to use the least amount of power necessary to effect good communications. Most better FRS radios like the T260 have that capability. Given the crowded situation on the 22 channels, there will certainly be interference experienced from Marin, SF, Oakland, Albany, Kensington, Richmond, and the numerous Berkeley neighborhoods, especially if one is located in the Berkeley hills. Like it or not stations will have to talk over others. FRS will be the loser, that's a given. Teaching best practices are the responsibility of the instructor for sure and that I situation is, I hope, a work in progress to ameliorate. For over a year, the only new FCC Certified  FRS radios available are single service, albeit many have the older dual-service radios, but most of those are less than 2 watts anyway.

We already have FRS simplex operation operating on the repeater outputs (take the east Bay FRS/GMRS First Wednesday net on channel 15 simplex, albeit the closest repeater is in Portola Valley and not very strong in our area. Simplex on repeaters outputs works in specific instances depending; which we can detail on future new topics. Anything is possible :)  :)

Be prepared. Let's test this.

73,

Don

[Sierra Boyd]

Thank you for the links!

Best,

--sierra

[W6WN]

I'm looking forward to seeing this presentation.

I'm with the El Dorado County Amateur Radio Club, and we've been actively involved in setting up GMRS Repeaters, furnishing radios (mainly Motorola, Kenwood and Vertex, taken out of public service) and training users in various communities in El Dorado County how to use them. Here, our potential disaster issue is wildfire, and people are keen to have an alternative when cell and Internet service goes down - just as it has here during every PSPS event. 

We now have around 120 Users and growing, conducting three community "Safety Nets" per week. We've even dealt with a few fires here this season although, thankfully, nothing major. 

We're always eager to learn what others are doing in the Community Radio space, and I'm impressed by how many have contributed ideas in this thread.

Best Regards,

Alan
---------------------
Alan Thompson - WRCT301 / W6WN 

Public Information Officer
The El Dorado County Amateur Radio Club
EDCARC.net
M. (530) 417 1451

Alan...@Gmail.com

---------------------  

[Michael Gold]

HI Alan. You wrote

> we've been actively involved in setting up GMRS Repeaters

You are way ahead of Albany! Albany needs an improved concept of operations that we haven't fully worked out yet. And Albany needs more residents to contribute so they can "own" the results. We have a goal of simulating an emergency this year and IMO this will depend on first recruiting more volunteers for mapping.

> We're always eager to learn what others are doing in the Community Radio space

I don't mean to discourage you from attending, just setting expectations. The presentation covers rudiments for (we hope) the general public. Other areas near me that are also way ahead in terms of participation and establishing comms protocols are Berkeley, Richmond, and Oakland (where the Montclair district seems especially notable, with FRS zones patched together to fully blanket the area).

I did submit a slide with information about some of the FRS radios that this thread discussed. In the slide I raised the issue "Ask yourself..." about whether you are willing to commit to keeping batteries charged, and/or keeping fresh AAA batteries in a go-kit. Roughly speaking that is about as technical as the presentation is going to get.

Albany Hill creates a radio shadow that we must work around (or over, which would involve rights-of-way issues more so than radio issues). Even this coverage issue is probably too technical for the audience we're expecting. But maybe among the people who sign up there will be some who are able to participate in testing and mapping ahead of a simulated emergency.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/becertainn/d1b77c97-5124-4bdc-8d5c-91510c26556an%40googlegroups.com.

[W6WN]

That's OK, non-technical is good. We're always looking to learn better ways to communicate with Non-Hams. It's easy to forget how to stick to the basics and start talking over the heads of our audience. 

And, of course, community radio not a "one size fits all" solution. You're working in an urban environment, where the mind set and challenges are far different than what we face up here in the rural foothills. In our program, we haven't focused at all on FRS, preferring to set everyone up with GMRS radios so they can use the repeater. Yet, some folks can't or won't afford a GMRS license or radios, and we don't want to leave them behind. 

Alan

[Hank Roberts]

Lamorinda CERT is selling  these:

Radio – Baofeng UV-82HP – programmed MURS, FRS, GMRS, HAM
$60.00

I don't know  how they're programmed, but wonder if they'd be a good recommendation.

I came across this because I'm on their mail list for occasional large purchases of water storage containers.

https://www.lamorindacert.org/resource/medical-and-backpack-supplies/

[Christiaan Adams]

Hi Hank, 

The UV-82HP (8 watt output) and older UV-82 (5 watt output) are Ham radios, and technically require an amateur radio license to operate, even if it's correctly programmed for GMRS use.  Also, I'm not sure what the Lamorinda folks are programming them with (likely at least their 3 repeaters), but if it doesn't include the BeCERTAINN repeater settings, or other things you want, then you'll need to reprogram it anyway.  

The BTech GMRS-V1 appears to be the same radio as the UV-82, with some pre-programming and a locked-down interface which allowed it to get the FCC Part 95 certification to be fully legal for GMRS use (with a GMRS license, of course).  The GMRS-V1 is available on Amazon for $60.  Meanwhile, the UV-82 is available for $26, and folks who aren't concerned about having a fully GMRS certified radio can program it independently.  

The BeCERTAIN website has some info on radios, including this spreadsheet with lots of options.  We also have plenty of folks willing and able to help with programming if needed.  

Good luck, -Chris

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/becertainn/c67fda28-3f45-47cd-bdbc-5fd0ca8a7efbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Gold]

Re FRS radios, I presented some tentative conclusions to Albany residents, and some city staff might have paid attention, after the recent discussion and a number of tests that Albany radio operators conducted during October. We experimented with various FRS radios at roughly 10 different locations within city limits. For now I've settled on recommending Motorola T402 (and apparently T460 and T465 are the same radio in different colors). Like other Talkabouts the T402/460/465 works with either included NiMH battery/charger or AA batteries The test report for the current version of these models rates tx output is close to 2 watts on the 462 MHz channels (1-7 and 15-22). To be sure, the newly formed Albany CERT radio club is encouraging people to get GMRS licenses -  This recommendation is for people who for any number of reasons are not planning to get GMRS licenses. But a T402 would also be a good choice for GMRS/ham users who want/need an option to fully comply with regulations for channels 8-14, or anyway to err on the side of politeness.

The T480 is a different radio (similar but red colored and on the pricey side) that we did not try, and it's rated at about 1.4 watts. A test report on the T260 rates the output at 1 watt - also not tested in Albany lately - price is roughly the same as the T402.

I had some older Txxx radios to test and the discontinued T5720 performed almost acceptably but faced some challenges on the edges of town. A T5500 produced somewhat disappointing results.

I am hoping to borrow a Radioddity FS-T1 or FS-T3 to test, though these do not accept alkaline batteries. The issue is that I would like to have a recommendation for people who aren't willing to spend ~$60/pair for T402 - the Radioddity units are half that price per pair. Despite no alkaline option, Radioddity has lithium batteries, the radios are programmable, and FS-T1 is rated at a respectable 1.6W on the 462 MHz channels. I bought and returned a pair of FS-T2 - though rated at 2W I can't deal with its digital volume control (always too loud or too soft), it needs a programming cable to set power high/low, and unlike FS-T1 it's an unusual programming cable I didn't have or particularly want to have to support.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/becertainn/CANsBGSKYPegiYBi0NjVk1yu0qWZ3okk%2Bcd8QYEpsiDUAgFJuMQ%40mail.gmail.com.