RFID chip in the new BC driver's license
Chom Noamsky
curious what was so enhanced about it, so I went to the ICBC website and
found this fact sheet:
http://www.icbc.com/licensing/pdf/edl_factsheet_rfid.pdf
Evidently the new licenses have an embedded RFID chip. The chip contains no
personal information, just a serial number. The serial number has to be
cross-referenced to a central database to get personal information, a
database supposedly only used for border security.
It's been proven that even passive RFID chips can be read reliably at
distances of tens of meters. It means theoretically you could be tracked
wherever such scanners are in place, just as long as you pass within range
of the scanner. The potential abuses are numerous, for example a retail
store could track an individual's purchase history even if they pay cash.
There are several ways to defeat unwanted RFID tracking. You can carry
cards bearing RFIDs in a shielded container. Or you could simply destroy the
chip. You can do this a number of ways, from putting the card in a
microwave oven for a few second to hitting it with a hammer. The ideal
method should destroy the chip without leaving any evidence it was done
purposely.
The ICBC fact sheet also states a shielded container is supposed to be
provided with the license to prevent unwanted scanning, but I never got one
with mine.
This may sound like Mark Hansel tinfoil hatter stuff but privacy concerns
over RFIDs are quite valid.
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
conspiracy theory...too funny!
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
news:lftCl.20392$Db2.2865@edtnps83...
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
people been told about the real agenda...
"Nobody" <n...@home.anymore> wrote in message
news:Xns9BE5A5B9A15...@209.197.15.171...
> Chom Noamsky wrote:
>
> > It's been proven that even passive RFID chips can be read reliably
> > at distances of tens of meters.
>
> Got a source for that? The literature I found show they can only be
> read at several INCHES.
>
> http://www.intersoft-us.com/dnload/rdrange.pdf
>
> Even the furor over RFID chips in US passports was because they could
> be read at 10cm.
>
> One source said they could read them at 30 feet but no documentation
> was given and no on could reliably document reading further than two or
> three feet.
>
> Active RFID tags can be read at much greater distances but your DL,
> credit cards are not active.
>
> Then again, you are smart and you knew that..right?
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chaos in the Cosmos" <Chaos.in.the.Cosmos
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP> wrote in message
news:8_yCl.20456$Db2.9074@edtnps83...
> It's all one big conspiracy ......................how many times have you
> people been told about the real agenda...
and how many times have we told you that licence is NOT compulsory. It only
has the same information in it that
a passport has.
Captain Chaos strikes again!
dave
Well, you just stated the obvious;
The chips contain no information, just a number assigned to that
card, which is assigned to your file.
That number is part of a database, and your information is
accessed by the number, not your name or anything else.
However, the *database*, and whatever is in it, *is* accessible
by whomever has a copy of it.
So, as a tinfoil hat matter, its that database and who has those
copies which is a concern.
===
Look at TELUS for example;
Back in 2001, just after September 11, 2001, US border guards
refused Canadians access across the border unless they brought
a copy of their telephone statement, more specifically,
their TELUS BILL.
Now, you've got to ask yourself, how exactly does a US border
officer gleam any information with a TELUS bill from Canada,
unless his office has access to that Database to confirm the
information, as a basic form of comparison as scrutiny.
And Gordon Campbell has stated that he introduced the most
stringent of privacy laws in BC, yet, Telus bills were being
asked for at the border.
Food for thought
Chom Noamsky
news:oAVCl.20615$Db2.19138@edtnps83...
> Well, you just stated the obvious;
>
> The chips contain no information, just a number assigned to that
> card, which is assigned to your file.
>
> That number is part of a database, and your information is accessed by the
> number, not your name or anything else.
>
> However, the *database*, and whatever is in it, *is* accessible
> by whomever has a copy of it.
>
> So, as a tinfoil hat matter, its that database and who has those
> copies which is a concern.
There is nothing stopping the creation of private databases. For example I
can think of many ways a retailer could capture the license serial and add
it to their customer databases. Once they have it captured and
cross-referenced to your account they could track your 'anonymous' cash
purchases. A store could even track you when you enter the store just to
browse.
Alan Baker
wrote:
Sounds like an urban legend to me. Got a reference?
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
DevilsPGD
claimed to have wrote:
>The chips contain no information, just a number assigned to that
>card, which is assigned to your file.
>
>That number is part of a database, and your information is
>accessed by the number, not your name or anything else.
>
>However, the *database*, and whatever is in it, *is* accessible
>by whomever has a copy of it.
>
>So, as a tinfoil hat matter, its that database and who has those
>copies which is a concern.
This depends on the threat you're considering. If you're worried about
information privacy, then you're correct, the database is what you
should lose sleep over.
However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with enough
readers.
A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that the
mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
night -- That would annoy me.
And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
What you end up with is just a plate number collected to a ring up of
products. A vehicle with 123-ABC buys
meat and groceries, plus a deli sandwich. There's isn't much value to having
that, since the plate number 123-ABC
can't be located to any one address. All you have is just a plate number
attached to one account which has an address
on it. Plate information is sealed off, it's not publicly available to
anyone. Even the police who have access to it are restricted in using it,
and all access to the data system keeping track of vehicle registrations has
digital trip wires since anyone accessing
that database has his or her time of access and time of exit logged.
It's not worth the retailer's store time to do that, since the address and
name of the person is already in the account set.
Also, those gift and merit cards that the stores have also have your name
and address which you give to the store when you
want one of those gift and merit cards.
Even without an account, all the store would have is "meat, groceries"
bought by someone who drives a car with licence
plate number 123-ABC. Not particularly valuable.
As for tracking the person in the store, they already do that with the
overhead cameras in the store and at the cash out counter.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:alangbaker-FE784...@news.shawcable.com...
Most likely it was just a verification of address. They wouldn't be
interested in anything else. Telus Bills can be used as
secondary means of verification of address matched to the name on the first
ID. You can take a Telus Bill as second proof
of address to a polling station if you wish, and almost all parties accept
those as second means of identification.
Gordon Campbell has no jursidiction as to what happens at the United States
Border, or even what happens at the Canadian
border.
Some people just go nuts over the smallest things.
Gerrald Arnasen
"DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
news:omipt4lu2tbul8cng...@4ax.com...
> In message <oAVCl.20615$Db2.19138@edtnps83> dave <tm...@yahoo.name> was
> claimed to have wrote:
>
>>The chips contain no information, just a number assigned to that
>>card, which is assigned to your file.
>>
>>That number is part of a database, and your information is
>>accessed by the number, not your name or anything else.
>>
>>However, the *database*, and whatever is in it, *is* accessible
>>by whomever has a copy of it.
>>
>>So, as a tinfoil hat matter, its that database and who has those
>>copies which is a concern.
>
> This depends on the threat you're considering. If you're worried about
> information privacy, then you're correct, the database is what you
> should lose sleep over.
Why lose sleep over something you read carefully and were considering in
getting into? The Enhanced Driver
licence is not compulsory and you only get one if you consent to it and pay
out the fee.
>
> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with enough
> readers.
Wrong.
>
> A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that the
> mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
> long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
> even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
> credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
> your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
The Mall Adminstraiton wouldn't be interested in you as a person. What they
are interested in is gross sales of the
stores that are in there, since it is from that they get the lease payments,
and they're also interested in how the stores
are marketing themselves.
> With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
> art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
> databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
> cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
> night -- That would annoy me.
You seem to be annoyed at something that wouldn't be worthwhile to do. You
would have to be a carrier of sorts. Cash
is not traceable to any one person.
> And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
> dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
That's not the reason for the enhanced driver licence. Holding the licence
to a RFID reader and swiping results in exactly
the same thing, the data id numeric that verifies information that you
consented to in the first place, your basics height weight,
date of birth, address.
If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one. It's
not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who don't want
to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of the border
crossings.
DevilsPGD
<g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>"DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
>news:omipt4lu2tbul8cng...@4ax.com...
>>
>> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
>> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with enough
>> readers.
>
>Wrong.
huh? How so? If I've got enough readers, I damn well can track any
RFID tag that provides a consistent response from one scan to the next.
>> A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that the
>> mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
>> long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
>> even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
>> credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
>> your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
>
>The Mall Adminstraiton wouldn't be interested in you as a person. What they
>are interested in is gross sales of the
>stores that are in there, since it is from that they get the lease payments,
>and they're also interested in how the stores
>are marketing themselves.
Mall administration most definitely will be interested when some
marketing company approaches the mall and offers the mall some cash to
install the readers.
You can bet that the stores would kill for the ability to automatically
have name, address, phone number and demographic information about a
majority of customers without the hassle of giving the customer anything
in exchange (like a frequent shopper card) so this wouldn't even require
mall administration participation, you could probably get 75%+ of stores
on-board inside of six months.
Once the marketer gets a big enough network, they'll eventually hit
critical mass, being able to track a massive majority of the people who
frequent a given area.
>> With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
>> art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
>> databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
>> cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
>> night -- That would annoy me.
>
>You seem to be annoyed at something that wouldn't be worthwhile to do. You
>would have to be a carrier of sorts. Cash
>is not traceable to any one person.
Until you use your credit card once, even once, at any store who uses
said reader, after which time from the point of view of any
participating merchant, your driver's license contains all of the
information the marketing network knows about you.
It need not even be a credit card, a debit card, or a store return
policy that requires your name/address/phone-number will be sufficient,
as would any transaction with a participating business who has an
insufficient privacy policy. Pay your TELUS or Rogers bill in person
with cash, you're on the list (okay, I don't know anyone who actually
does that, but when I did a few months hard time at TELUS there was
always a huge line of morons)
>> And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
>> dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
>
>That's not the reason for the enhanced driver licence. Holding the licence
>to a RFID reader and swiping results in exactly
>the same thing, the data id numeric that verifies information that you
>consented to in the first place, your basics height weight,
>date of birth, address.
s/cop/border guard/
Happy?
The only thing RFID actually offers the card holder is a touchless read
vs a swipe, anything else is administrative overhead injected solely by
parties who wish to track cardholders more efficiently/effectively.
>If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one. It's
>not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who don't want
>to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of the border
>crossings.
I'm not too stressed about this particular card, although I do actually
plan on getting one ASAP but I'll use it almost exclusively for border
crossings, I don't always carry gov't ID with me under normal
circumstances, the only time I need ID on a regular basis is the odd
store who verifies photo ID for all credit card purchases and I'm
perfectly happy to use my Amex which has my photo right on the card.
What bothers me is the perception that it can't be used to track people
just because it doesn't contain any personal information stored on the
card -- It doesn't need personal information to be useful to someone
wanting to track people, it just needs to provide consistent responses.
The biggest joke? You want to secure the thing, all you need to do is
build a challenge/response algorithm into the cards so that the cards
won't even reveal their unique ID until the reader is both identified
and authenticated. This is security 101, and is trivial to implement.
I should also mention that I carry frequent shopper type cards, I don't
mind selling my privacy but I damn well want to have the choice.
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
> In message <LldDl.22141$PH1.6322@edtnps82> "Gerrald Arnasen"
> <g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>
> >"DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
> >news:omipt4lu2tbul8cng...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
> >> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with
enough
> >> readers.
> >
> >Wrong.
>
> huh? How so? If I've got enough readers, I damn well can track any
> RFID tag that provides a consistent response from one scan to the next.
Kent aka ("Gerrald Arnasen") will disgree when people start to reaize that
government terrorism and their wanting to control people is exposed
everytime. Everything Kent Supports is that pro-government police state
stpuidity.....
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chaos in the Cosmos" <Chaos.in.the.Cosmos
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP> wrote in message
Only Captain Chaos here supports stupidity. He can't even grasp the idea
that the enhanced licence is an option, it is
not compulsory and there's a step of consent involved. But he's too simple
minded to figure that out.
Chom Noamsky
"Gerrald Arnasen" <g...@langfordcomz.org> wrote in message
news:LldDl.22141$PH1.6322@edtnps82...
>
> "DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
> news:omipt4lu2tbul8cng...@4ax.com...
>> In message <oAVCl.20615$Db2.19138@edtnps83> dave <tm...@yahoo.name> was
>> claimed to have wrote:
>>
>>>The chips contain no information, just a number assigned to that
>>>card, which is assigned to your file.
>>>
>>>That number is part of a database, and your information is
>>>accessed by the number, not your name or anything else.
>>>
>>>However, the *database*, and whatever is in it, *is* accessible
>>>by whomever has a copy of it.
>>>
>>>So, as a tinfoil hat matter, its that database and who has those
>>>copies which is a concern.
>>
>> This depends on the threat you're considering. If you're worried about
>> information privacy, then you're correct, the database is what you
>> should lose sleep over.
>
> Why lose sleep over something you read carefully and were considering in
> getting into? The Enhanced Driver
> licence is not compulsory and you only get one if you consent to it and
> pay out the fee.
Wrong. I renewed my license recently and got one of the RFID units, and I
don't recall anything about it being optional.
>
>>
>> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
>> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with enough
>> readers.
>
> Wrong.
They use RFIDs to track everything from cows to inventory, so why not
people? That's the explicit purpose of RFIDs, to identify and track things.
If that is incorrect, please explain.
>> A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that the
>> mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
>> long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
>> even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
>> credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
>> your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
>
> The Mall Adminstraiton wouldn't be interested in you as a person. What
> they are interested in is gross sales of the
> stores that are in there, since it is from that they get the lease
> payments, and they're also interested in how the stores
> are marketing themselves.
Why does purpose and intent even matter? The fact is RFIDs are DESIGNED to
be tracked, and if they can track inventory and livestock they can also be
used to track humans. For whatever purpose is irrelevant, the fact is it
can be done (and shouldn't).
>> With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
>> art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
>> databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
>> cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
>> night -- That would annoy me.
>
> You seem to be annoyed at something that wouldn't be worthwhile to do. You
> would have to be a carrier of sorts. Cash
> is not traceable to any one person.
Again, whether it is worthwhile or not is irrelevant, the fact is it CAN be
done. Maybe your intellect is too contrained to see the possibilities, but
believe me there are far more creative thinkers out there and they may not
have your best interests in mind.
>> And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
>> dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
>
> That's not the reason for the enhanced driver licence. Holding the
> licence to a RFID reader and swiping results in exactly
> the same thing, the data id numeric that verifies information that you
> consented to in the first place, your basics height weight,
> date of birth, address.
Guess what? The RFID serial is redundant, every license already has a
unique number for database lookup, it's the DL# written right on the face of
the card. How hard is it to punch in a two letter code for province/state
and a seven digit number?
> If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one. It's
> not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who don't
> want to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of the
> border crossings.
I didn't have the option of not getting one when I renewed my license.
Krill
>
> Wrong. I renewed my license recently and got one of the RFID units, and I
> don't recall anything about it being optional.
>
>
Chom. I worked in RFID for years with several companies. If you don't like
your card, put it in tinfoil.
I know the tech.
Krill
>
> Chom. I worked in RFID for years with several companies. If you don't like
> your card, put it in tinfoil.
>
> I know the tech.
>
>
I was with Psion for 2 years, worked as the product manager for Checkpoint
for 3. And a few others. All from the barcode biz.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
>
> "Gerrald Arnasen" <g...@langfordcomz.org> wrote in message
> news:LldDl.22141$PH1.6322@edtnps82...
>>
>> "DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
>> news:omipt4lu2tbul8cng...@4ax.com...
>>> In message <oAVCl.20615$Db2.19138@edtnps83> dave <tm...@yahoo.name> was
>>> claimed to have wrote:
>>>
>>>>The chips contain no information, just a number assigned to that
>>>>card, which is assigned to your file.
>>>>
>>>>That number is part of a database, and your information is
>>>>accessed by the number, not your name or anything else.
>>>>
>>>>However, the *database*, and whatever is in it, *is* accessible
>>>>by whomever has a copy of it.
>>>>
>>>>So, as a tinfoil hat matter, its that database and who has those
>>>>copies which is a concern.
>>>
>>> This depends on the threat you're considering. If you're worried about
>>> information privacy, then you're correct, the database is what you
>>> should lose sleep over.
>>
>> Why lose sleep over something you read carefully and were considering in
>> getting into? The Enhanced Driver
>> licence is not compulsory and you only get one if you consent to it and
>> pay out the fee.
>
> Wrong. I renewed my license recently and got one of the RFID units, and I
> don't recall anything about it being optional.
There is no RFID chips in standard issue BC Driver licences. there is a
magentic stripe, but no radio chip and no RFID.
That exists only in the enhanced BC Driver Licence. If your from somewhere
else, then there might be one, but the original
scream and holler match started by Captain Chaos here is for BC.
>
>>
>>>
>>> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
>>> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with enough
>>> readers.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> They use RFIDs to track everything from cows to inventory, so why not
> people? That's the explicit purpose of RFIDs, to identify and track
> things. If that is incorrect, please explain.
Depends on the usage. Your noting the technology.
>
>>> A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that the
>>> mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
>>> long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
>>> even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
>>> credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
>>> your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
>>
>> The Mall Adminstraiton wouldn't be interested in you as a person. What
>> they are interested in is gross sales of the
>> stores that are in there, since it is from that they get the lease
>> payments, and they're also interested in how the stores
>> are marketing themselves.
>
> Why does purpose and intent even matter? The fact is RFIDs are DESIGNED
> to be tracked, and if they can track inventory and livestock they can also
> be used to track humans. For whatever purpose is irrelevant, the fact is
> it can be done (and shouldn't).
Big deal. Inventory can be tracked by bar code. Railway cars are tracked by
stripe code affixed to a plate on the side of
the rolling stock. Not going to happen with people too much. Nice try
though. Wouldn't break out in a cold sweat that
you're going to be tracked from the Burrard Street Skytrain Station to Third
Beach at Stanley Park.
>>> With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
>>> art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
>>> databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
>>> cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
>>> night -- That would annoy me.
>>
>> You seem to be annoyed at something that wouldn't be worthwhile to do.
>> You would have to be a carrier of sorts. Cash
>> is not traceable to any one person.
>
> Again, whether it is worthwhile or not is irrelevant, the fact is it CAN
> be done. Maybe your intellect is too contrained to see the possibilities,
> but believe me there are far more creative thinkers out there and they may
> not have your best interests in mind.
Doesn't matter if it CAN be done, the more important aspect is that is it
worth it. In your scenario it is not. I can see alot of
possibilities, but practicality and economics enters the picture something
which you were lacking.
I could take a 10 ton truck and cook it off on a ferry using a timer and a
few barrels of gasoline, but doesn't mean I am actually going to do it.
I can also give someone a taser like shock with a camera that has a self
contained flash, too.
>>> And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
>>> dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
>>
>> That's not the reason for the enhanced driver licence. Holding the
>> licence to a RFID reader and swiping results in exactly
>> the same thing, the data id numeric that verifies information that you
>> consented to in the first place, your basics height weight,
>> date of birth, address.
>
> Guess what? The RFID serial is redundant, every license already has a
> unique number for database lookup, it's the DL# written right on the face
> of the card. How hard is it to punch in a two letter code for
> province/state and a seven digit number?
It isn't. The RFID serial is a numeric attached to a data entry block which
contains the driver licence number, not the
number itself. The numeric on the RFID is used to match the same number on
the data set which contains consented to
information about a person, not much more than what is in a passport.
>> If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one.
>> It's not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who
>> don't want to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of
>> the border crossings.
>
> I didn't have the option of not getting one when I renewed my license.
Well in BC we do. There's two editions of a BC Driver licence. A standard
one, and the extra fee Enhanced Driver
Licence which is optional.
You haven't told us what jurisdiction you're from. My guess is Ontario. Even
in Ontario the addition of citizenship information
is optional. It's possible you may have an RFID capable licence, but there's
nothing added to it other than what would be
nornmally provided during renewal time. If you figure there is additional
information in there, you didn't read the renewal
documents properly, sport. Could have opted out of the enhancements.
If you still have a problem, cancel your existing licence, and revert back
to a basic one.
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
"Krill" <kr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2448a1d92...@news.motzarella.org...
Just wipe the data off the card...
>
> I know the tech.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chaos in the Cosmos" <Chaos.in.the.Cosmos
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP> wrote in message
Better yet, if you don't want one, don't get one.
Chom Noamsky
I live in BC. My license is a BC license. I was presented with no option
for standard or enhanced when I renewed. I paid $75. How do I know it's
the "enhanced" one... it's written right on the card.
>>>> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
>>>> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with
>>>> enough
>>>> readers.
>>>
>>> Wrong.
>>
>> They use RFIDs to track everything from cows to inventory, so why not
>> people? That's the explicit purpose of RFIDs, to identify and track
>> things. If that is incorrect, please explain.
>
> Depends on the usage. Your noting the technology.
Yes I am, it's a technology designed explictly for tracking and
identification. That's what it does. What do you think it's for?
>>>> A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that
>>>> the
>>>> mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
>>>> long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
>>>> even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
>>>> credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
>>>> your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
>>>
>>> The Mall Adminstraiton wouldn't be interested in you as a person. What
>>> they are interested in is gross sales of the
>>> stores that are in there, since it is from that they get the lease
>>> payments, and they're also interested in how the stores
>>> are marketing themselves.
>>
>> Why does purpose and intent even matter? The fact is RFIDs are DESIGNED
>> to be tracked, and if they can track inventory and livestock they can
>> also be used to track humans. For whatever purpose is irrelevant, the
>> fact is it can be done (and shouldn't).
>
> Big deal. Inventory can be tracked by bar code. Railway cars are tracked
> by stripe code affixed to a plate on the side of
> the rolling stock. Not going to happen with people too much. Nice try
> though. Wouldn't break out in a cold sweat that
> you're going to be tracked from the Burrard Street Skytrain Station to
> Third Beach at Stanley Park.
It's a matter of principle, personal information is supposed to "personal."
It's not the state's business to know where I go.
>>>> With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
>>>> art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
>>>> databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
>>>> cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
>>>> night -- That would annoy me.
>>>
>>> You seem to be annoyed at something that wouldn't be worthwhile to do.
>>> You would have to be a carrier of sorts. Cash
>>> is not traceable to any one person.
>>
>> Again, whether it is worthwhile or not is irrelevant, the fact is it CAN
>> be done. Maybe your intellect is too contrained to see the
>> possibilities, but believe me there are far more creative thinkers out
>> there and they may not have your best interests in mind.
>
> Doesn't matter if it CAN be done, the more important aspect is that is it
> worth it. In your scenario it is not. I can see alot of
> possibilities, but practicality and economics enters the picture something
> which you were lacking.
>
> I could take a 10 ton truck and cook it off on a ferry using a timer and a
> few barrels of gasoline, but doesn't mean I am actually going to do it.
>
> I can also give someone a taser like shock with a camera that has a self
> contained flash, too.
Capturing RFID signatures is virtually effortless. That's why they are so
popular for loss prevention. Walk out the door with an RFID tag that hasn't
been deactivated and an alarm goes off. In this case the RFID is associated
with a person and not a product.
>>>> And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
>>>> dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
>>>
>>> That's not the reason for the enhanced driver licence. Holding the
>>> licence to a RFID reader and swiping results in exactly
>>> the same thing, the data id numeric that verifies information that you
>>> consented to in the first place, your basics height weight,
>>> date of birth, address.
>>
>> Guess what? The RFID serial is redundant, every license already has a
>> unique number for database lookup, it's the DL# written right on the face
>> of the card. How hard is it to punch in a two letter code for
>> province/state and a seven digit number?
>
> It isn't. The RFID serial is a numeric attached to a data entry block
> which contains the driver licence number, not the
> number itself. The numeric on the RFID is used to match the same number on
> the data set which contains consented to
> information about a person, not much more than what is in a passport.
I see that went right over your head. The DL# issued to the individual is
already unique, which makes the RFID serial redundant. How many unique key
fields does it take to query a database? Just one. Having been an Oracle
developer in a past career I know a little bit about databases.
>>> If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one.
>>> It's not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who
>>> don't want to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of
>>> the border crossings.
>>
>> I didn't have the option of not getting one when I renewed my license.
>
> Well in BC we do. There's two editions of a BC Driver licence. A standard
> one, and the extra fee Enhanced Driver
> Licence which is optional.
I got the enhanced one without explicitly asking for it. I live in BC
> You haven't told us what jurisdiction you're from. My guess is Ontario.
> Even in Ontario the addition of citizenship information
> is optional. It's possible you may have an RFID capable licence, but
> there's nothing added to it other than what would be
> nornmally provided during renewal time. If you figure there is additional
> information in there, you didn't read the renewal
> documents properly, sport. Could have opted out of the enhancements.
>
> If you still have a problem, cancel your existing licence, and revert back
> to a basic one.
It's easy enough to disable RFID's, I've already done that. Can't tell at
all it's been deliberately destroyed. I'm not going to fork out another $75
for something I wasn't infomed was optional.
gabba
>
> Yes I am, it's a technology designed explictly for tracking and
> identification. That's what it does. What do you think it's for?
>
Chom. I know the tech. Wrap it in tinfoil if you have a problem.
RFID was my game for 6 years. I wrote whitepapers on it, and on Bluetooth as
well. I'm what you could call, an expert.
DevilsPGD
<ga...@gmail.com> was claimed to have wrote:
>Chom Noamsky wrote
>>
>> Yes I am, it's a technology designed explictly for tracking and
>> identification. That's what it does. What do you think it's for?
>
>Chom. I know the tech. Wrap it in tinfoil if you have a problem.
Tinfoil is surprisingly difficult to find these days.
One of the other complaints is that some RFID enabled identification
cards out there apparently come with some sort of envelope/carrying-case
that is supposed to block RFID signals, but don't.
The other issue is that when I carry a gov't ID card I don't normally
remove it from my wallet when I need to show the card, instead I have a
wallet with a transparent window, this way my card never leaves my hand.
Transparent aluminum—that's the ticket, laddie.
Chom Noamsky
news:MPG.244956629...@News.Individual.NET...
What's a good way to disable the tag permanently?
Chom Noamsky
I got one but never asked for one....
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
"Nobody" <n...@home.anymore> wrote in message
> Chom Noamsky wrote:
>
> > What's a good way to disable the tag permanently?
>
Because these socilaist like comrade Chimpy think it's a great idea and then
cry about their personal information being there for everyone to see! Too
funny...
Socialists = vermin
Hammer the card all over, not enough to destroy it. That should do it since
the RFID chips are still made of fragile silicon. Then use the hammer on a
socialist who thought it up.
gabba
Chom, my Visa card has an RFID chip. So will yours one day.
You need to read up on RFID tech. You are suspicious because you are
ignorant.
gabba
Why are you comfortable with Bluetooth tech, your cell phone with GPS. Yet
fear the card?
Read up, or grow up.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
Well then you received a bluish one, didn't you? You then needed to fill out
a form and you consented to the information
on it. Check the colour if it's isn't light blue, it isn't true. You also
had to provide additional ID (something which isn't done
with just a renewal).
>
>>>>> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial number
>>>>> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with
>>>>> enough
>>>>> readers.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong.
>>>
>>> They use RFIDs to track everything from cows to inventory, so why not
>>> people? That's the explicit purpose of RFIDs, to identify and track
>>> things. If that is incorrect, please explain.
>>
>> Depends on the usage. Your noting the technology.
>
> Yes I am, it's a technology designed explictly for tracking and
> identification. That's what it does. What do you think it's for?
Congratualtions, you just answered your own question.
>
>>>>> A simple example would be a mall with RFID readers scattered so that
>>>>> the
>>>>> mall administration could identify what store you're in and for how
>>>>> long. Use the same credit card at two or three different stores and
>>>>> even if all the mall knows is the list of IDs in a store each time a
>>>>> credit card is used, it will generally take only 2-3 purchases before
>>>>> your ID has a real name and credit card associated with it.
>>>>
>>>> The Mall Adminstraiton wouldn't be interested in you as a person. What
>>>> they are interested in is gross sales of the
>>>> stores that are in there, since it is from that they get the lease
>>>> payments, and they're also interested in how the stores
>>>> are marketing themselves.
>>>
>>> Why does purpose and intent even matter? The fact is RFIDs are DESIGNED
>>> to be tracked, and if they can track inventory and livestock they can
>>> also be used to track humans. For whatever purpose is irrelevant, the
>>> fact is it can be done (and shouldn't).
>>
>> Big deal. Inventory can be tracked by bar code. Railway cars are tracked
>> by stripe code affixed to a plate on the side of
>> the rolling stock. Not going to happen with people too much. Nice try
>> though. Wouldn't break out in a cold sweat that
>> you're going to be tracked from the Burrard Street Skytrain Station to
>> Third Beach at Stanley Park.
>
> It's a matter of principle, personal information is supposed to
> "personal." It's not the state's business to know where I go.
If you cross the border it is their business to know who you are. Where you
go after that, they aren't all that interested.
Could be Birch Bay Washington, Baton Rouge Louisana or Boston Massachusettes
for all they care.
All this enhanced licence does is replace the use of a passport for U.S.
border crossings.
>
>>>>> With a bit of clever database work marketers have already mastered the
>>>>> art of putting together small pieces of information to build massive
>>>>> databases. You could walk into a store today and buy something with
>>>>> cash and start receiving telemarketing for complementary products that
>>>>> night -- That would annoy me.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to be annoyed at something that wouldn't be worthwhile to do.
>>>> You would have to be a carrier of sorts. Cash
>>>> is not traceable to any one person.
>>>
>>> Again, whether it is worthwhile or not is irrelevant, the fact is it CAN
>>> be done. Maybe your intellect is too contrained to see the
>>> possibilities, but believe me there are far more creative thinkers out
>>> there and they may not have your best interests in mind.
>>
>> Doesn't matter if it CAN be done, the more important aspect is that is it
>> worth it. In your scenario it is not. I can see alot of
>> possibilities, but practicality and economics enters the picture
>> something which you were lacking.
>>
>> I could take a 10 ton truck and cook it off on a ferry using a timer and
>> a few barrels of gasoline, but doesn't mean I am actually going to do it.
>>
>> I can also give someone a taser like shock with a camera that has a self
>> contained flash, too.
>
> Capturing RFID signatures is virtually effortless. That's why they are so
> popular for loss prevention. Walk out the door with an RFID tag that
> hasn't been deactivated and an alarm goes off. In this case the RFID is
> associated with a person and not a product.
The RFID is associated with a consenting person and not a product to be
specific. It replaces the use of a passport for
land crossings in the United States.
>
>>>>> And all for what, so a cop only has to hold your license near his
>>>>> dashboard PC rather then swiping the 3D barcode on the back?
>>>>
>>>> That's not the reason for the enhanced driver licence. Holding the
>>>> licence to a RFID reader and swiping results in exactly
>>>> the same thing, the data id numeric that verifies information that you
>>>> consented to in the first place, your basics height weight,
>>>> date of birth, address.
>>>
>>> Guess what? The RFID serial is redundant, every license already has a
>>> unique number for database lookup, it's the DL# written right on the
>>> face of the card. How hard is it to punch in a two letter code for
>>> province/state and a seven digit number?
>>
>> It isn't. The RFID serial is a numeric attached to a data entry block
>> which contains the driver licence number, not the
>> number itself. The numeric on the RFID is used to match the same number
>> on the data set which contains consented to
>> information about a person, not much more than what is in a passport.
>
> I see that went right over your head. The DL# issued to the individual is
> already unique, which makes the RFID serial redundant. How many unique
> key fields does it take to query a database? Just one. Having been an
> Oracle developer in a past career I know a little bit about databases.
Sorry, wrong. If you were true to your supposed Orcale developer traits, you
would know that databases can carry an unique
identifer for a chain of fields one of which can carry a driver licence
number. Even simplistic relational databases such as
Access can do that. How many fields does it take to query a database? Many
if a system uses a common identifier but
different field marks. For example, the same database that is used to ID
enhanced driver licences isssued in BC is the same one used to ID enhanced
driver licences in Washington State, even though the driver licence number
is differnet.
It depends on how the database is used, sport. You would know that.
>
>>>> If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one.
>>>> It's not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who
>>>> don't want to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of
>>>> the border crossings.
>>>
>>> I didn't have the option of not getting one when I renewed my license.
>>
>> Well in BC we do. There's two editions of a BC Driver licence. A
>> standard one, and the extra fee Enhanced Driver
>> Licence which is optional.
>
> I got the enhanced one without explicitly asking for it. I live in BC
Actually you didn't what you got was the standard one with a stripe on the
back. it's not an RFID enabled licence.
Those have only been offered to the public for an additional fee for the
past few days after a trial period going back about a year. There's also a
distinct colour difference between the two. The RFID one says "Enhanced" on
the front and is blueish in colour. In order to get one, you'd have to
complete additional information, consent to the form, and pay out $35.00.
Not even a nice try.
The enhanced driver licence:
http://www.icbc.com/licensing/edl.asp
Sorry pal, you just don't have the RFID enabled licence. What you have is a
standard one. the stripe just repeats what is
on the front for swiping purposes. It's not valid as the Enhanced one to be
used at the border in place of a passport.
>
>> You haven't told us what jurisdiction you're from. My guess is Ontario.
>> Even in Ontario the addition of citizenship information
>> is optional. It's possible you may have an RFID capable licence, but
>> there's nothing added to it other than what would be
>> nornmally provided during renewal time. If you figure there is
>> additional information in there, you didn't read the renewal
>> documents properly, sport. Could have opted out of the enhancements.
>>
>> If you still have a problem, cancel your existing licence, and revert
>> back to a basic one.
>
> It's easy enough to disable RFID's, I've already done that. Can't tell at
> all it's been deliberately destroyed. I'm not going to fork out another
> $75 for something I wasn't infomed was optional.
You never did. You just renewed an ordinary driver licence. There's no chip
in it.
If you weren't informed you obviously weren't paying attention.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
Rip it in two and throw it away and get a standard licence.
Gerrald Arnasen
He obvously won't. GPS units are now so small, a person could stick one on
Mark Hansel's or Chom's car and they wouldn't know it's there.
Form there, it's easy to track where they might be going by using an
internet site.
Cellphones? With the right radio equipment they too can be listened to.
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
Why don't you take your pro-government police state stupidity to
alt.bin.kooks where you should be, you freak!
DevilsPGD
Either you've never even seen one of these licenses, or you're superman,
but regular humans cannot rip a poly-carbonate card in two.
Chom Noamsky
It says "enhanced" right at the top of the card..
>
>>
>>>>>> However, the concern about RFID tags that only contain a serial
>>>>>> number
>>>>>> is still valid in that it allows you to be tracked by anyone with
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> readers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong.
>>>>
>>>> They use RFIDs to track everything from cows to inventory, so why not
>>>> people? That's the explicit purpose of RFIDs, to identify and track
>>>> things. If that is incorrect, please explain.
>>>
>>> Depends on the usage. Your noting the technology.
>>
>> Yes I am, it's a technology designed explictly for tracking and
>> identification. That's what it does. What do you think it's for?
>
> Congratualtions, you just answered your own question.
Now answer mine, what do you think it's for?
I have a passport, I don't need a special driver's license. The last time I
drove accross they asked me for detailed information about where I was going
and what I was doing and how long I planned to stay. The agent even
demanded to see the receipt for the course I was heading to down in
California.
That was provided to demonstrate they are designed to be easily read in
walkway traffic areas. The scanners used to be big things on each side of
the door but are getting a lot smaller and more unobtrusive.
Okee.... now what would that "unique identifer for a chain of fields" be
called?
> Even simplistic relational databases such as
> Access can do that. How many fields does it take to query a database?
> Many if a system uses a common identifier but
> different field marks.
You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. It only takes one
field if the value contained is unique. Do you know what unique means? It
means now two alike. It doesn't matter if it's a unique primary key or a
sumplementary key, it only takes one. You can have more than one but only
one is required. The DL# is unique for the issuing authority it comes from
which makes the RFID# redundant. Prefixed with the two-letter abbrev for
prov/state and it's unique for everyone one in North America. DL# are
guaranteed to be unique for every province and state from where they are
issued. That's how it has worked for years, for police, etc.
> For example, the same database that is used to ID enhanced driver licences
> isssued in BC is the same one used to ID enhanced driver licences in
> Washington State, even though the driver licence number is differnet.
>
> It depends on how the database is used, sport. You would know that.
The database serves as validation for the information on the license.
Ostensibly, that is all the database is intended for. You don't need the
RFID serial to provide a unique identifier, all you need is the
province/state and the DL#. How exactly does an RFID make your ID more
secure? I bet you can't explain it rationally.
>>>>> If you get all'a flutter about the new Driver Licence, don't get one.
>>>>> It's not compulsory, it's an option for those who cross the border who
>>>>> don't want to pack around a passport to cross The Line by using one of
>>>>> the border crossings.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't have the option of not getting one when I renewed my license.
>>>
>>> Well in BC we do. There's two editions of a BC Driver licence. A
>>> standard one, and the extra fee Enhanced Driver
>>> Licence which is optional.
>>
>> I got the enhanced one without explicitly asking for it. I live in BC
>
> Actually you didn't what you got was the standard one with a stripe on the
> back. it's not an RFID enabled licence.
> Those have only been offered to the public for an additional fee for the
> past few days after a trial period going back about a year. There's also
> a distinct colour difference between the two. The RFID one says "Enhanced"
> on the front and is blueish in colour. In order to get one, you'd have to
> complete additional information, consent to the form, and pay out $35.00.
>
> Not even a nice try.
>
> The enhanced driver licence:
>
> http://www.icbc.com/licensing/edl.asp
>
> Sorry pal, you just don't have the RFID enabled licence. What you have is
> a standard one. the stripe just repeats what is
> on the front for swiping purposes. It's not valid as the Enhanced one to
> be used at the border in place of a passport.
Ah, so now you're capable of astrotravelling into my wallet. Or are you
just all-knowing, like God?
>>> You haven't told us what jurisdiction you're from. My guess is Ontario.
>>> Even in Ontario the addition of citizenship information
>>> is optional. It's possible you may have an RFID capable licence, but
>>> there's nothing added to it other than what would be
>>> nornmally provided during renewal time. If you figure there is
>>> additional information in there, you didn't read the renewal
>>> documents properly, sport. Could have opted out of the enhancements.
>>>
>>> If you still have a problem, cancel your existing licence, and revert
>>> back to a basic one.
>>
>> It's easy enough to disable RFID's, I've already done that. Can't tell
>> at all it's been deliberately destroyed. I'm not going to fork out
>> another $75 for something I wasn't infomed was optional.
>
> You never did. You just renewed an ordinary driver licence. There's no
> chip in it.
>
> If you weren't informed you obviously weren't paying attention.
Right, I forgot you were an omniscient God. The issuing authority has made
mistakes with my license before but guys like you are smarter than them.
Chom Noamsky
I have the option of leaving my credit cards, cell phone, and blue tooth
enabled devices at home. I also have the option of not owning them at all.
I don't have the option of not carrying a DL when I drive.
Our governments have been promoting a national ID for a long time, and I
believe this is just a stealth method of accomplishing the same thing
without any public debate or vote.
As they say the price of freedom is eternal vigilence. I reject any kind of
national ID. We signed a deal that was supposed to guarantee the free flow
of goods and the migration of people across the borders of US and Mexico,
but the flow for people is more difficult than ever. If policy isn't
benefitting people then why would you be so gung-ho about it?
Chom Noamsky
Why spend another $75 when you can just whack it with a hammer.
Chom Noamsky
Just give it to "Nobody", his ferocious Yorkie teeth will do the job.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
You had the option of sticking with the standard driver licence with no RFID
or the enhanced one.
>
> Our governments have been promoting a national ID for a long time, and I
> believe this is just a stealth method of accomplishing the same thing
> without any public debate or vote.
The National ID of sorts is technically your SIN.
> As they say the price of freedom is eternal vigilence. I reject any kind
> of national ID. We signed a deal that was supposed to guarantee the free
> flow of goods and the migration of people across the borders of US and
> Mexico, but the flow for people is more difficult than ever. If policy
> isn't benefitting people then why would you be so gung-ho about it?
The agreement is for the free flow of goods across the borders of US and
Mexico, not people. People still need to
show themselves at the border crossings with Mexico (same here).
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
WHy did you spend $75 for it in the first place if you didn't want it?
Should have gone with the regular licence, but
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
You just answered the question.
If you have this enhanced licence you don't need a passport, sport. Th
questions asked previously are "tombstone" questions,
not specific to you. They ask those to everyone.
The agent demanded to see a receipt I had for the goods I was picking up in
Bellingham. No big deal.
Can be called "a primary field key"
>
>> Even simplistic relational databases such as
>> Access can do that. How many fields does it take to query a database?
>> Many if a system uses a common identifier but
>> different field marks.
>
> You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. It only takes
> one field if the value contained is unique. Do you know what unique
> means? It means now two alike. It doesn't matter if it's a unique
> primary key or a sumplementary key, it only takes one. You can have more
> than one but only one is required. The DL# is unique for the issuing
> authority it comes from which makes the RFID# redundant. Prefixed with
> the two-letter abbrev for prov/state and it's unique for everyone one in
> North America. DL# are guaranteed to be unique for every province and
> state from where they are issued. That's how it has worked for years, for
> police, etc.
DL's are unique to each jursidiction but the numerics are different.
>
>> For example, the same database that is used to ID enhanced driver
>> licences isssued in BC is the same one used to ID enhanced driver
>> licences in Washington State, even though the driver licence number is
>> differnet.
>>
>> It depends on how the database is used, sport. You would know that.
>
> The database serves as validation for the information on the license.
> Ostensibly, that is all the database is intended for. You don't need the
> RFID serial to provide a unique identifier, all you need is the
> province/state and the DL#. How exactly does an RFID make your ID more
> secure? I bet you can't explain it rationally.
Well not to you anyway. You can't even figure out that you missed several
steps or weren't aware of them in getting
the enhanced driver licence.
Actually in reading all of this, the only error committed was by you. You
weren't paying attention . You ended up
with the Enhanced Driver licence which you are all aflutter about which is
entirely optional and not compulosory.
Congratulations.
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
"Gerrald Arnasen" is a kook and another pro-government police state
idiot....he's a yes man....
gmr36v...@free.teranews.cm
"Chom Noamsky" <po...@bbq.yum> wrote in message
news:C9PDl.21124$Db2.20006@edtnps83...
> "gabba" <ga...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.244956629...@News.Individual.NET...
> > Chom Noamsky wrote
> >>
> >> Yes I am, it's a technology designed explictly for tracking and
> >> identification. That's what it does. What do you think it's for?
> >>
> >
> > Chom. I know the tech. Wrap it in tinfoil if you have a problem.
> >
> > RFID was my game for 6 years. I wrote whitepapers on it, and on
> > Bluetooth as
> > well. I'm what you could call, an expert.
>
> What's a good way to disable the tag permanently?
Microwave.... Two or three seconds outta do it.
Btw, its just a matter of time before these become compulsory..... but they
have to warm up the frogs water slowly. Still, its good to see you aren't
claiming this is all just a conspiracy theory... like some of you did a few
years ago... ;-)
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chaos in the Cosmos" <Chaos.in.the.Cosmos
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP> wrote in message
and Mark Hansel is Captain Chaos.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Nobody" <n...@home.anymore> wrote in message
> fancy new hi-tech DL and now, after checking it out, he doesn't like
> it.
>
> The real joke is that he is trying to convince people here that they
> gave hime the DL with no extra effort when, in fact, it takes a fair
> bit of extra work to get the EDL.
>
> http://www.icbc.com/licensing/pdf/mv2657_your_guide_to_edl.pdf
Exactly. Definately wasn't paying attention.
Gerrald Arnasen
"HostNo...@teranews.com" <gmr36v$10h4$1...@free.teranews.cm> wrote in
message news:5GvEl.31382$%e2....@newsfe24.iad...
Yeh right. In his case, he wasn't paying attention to the steps.
Why even bother to microwave it.
Seems to be alot of bother for something that he could have prevented in the
first place.
DevilsPGD
<g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>Actually in reading all of this, the only error committed was by you. You
>weren't paying attention . You ended up
>with the Enhanced Driver licence which you are all aflutter about which is
>entirely optional and not compulosory.
It's entirely possible that the rep said something like "do you want the
new single card, or the older style?" and he said "new one" without
realizing that it was an enhanced RFID card.
Gerrald Arnasen
Not likely. But if that did occur, it should have piqued his mind to ask
what the new single card is.
And even if he said yes to it, the path to getting one is considerably
different than getting the standard one, since the
standard one does not require additional ID. All one does is turn in the old
driver licence and pose in front of the camera.
There's no additional forms to complete and consent to as there is with the
Enhanced Driver Licence.
Obviously our hero was not paying attention.
DevilsPGD
<g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>"DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
>news:18v6u4hgtakrlfu5o...@4ax.com...
>> In message <8ubEl.22748$PH1.13583@edtnps82> "Gerrald Arnasen"
>> <g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>>
>>>Actually in reading all of this, the only error committed was by you. You
>>>weren't paying attention . You ended up
>>>with the Enhanced Driver licence which you are all aflutter about which is
>>>entirely optional and not compulosory.
>>
>> It's entirely possible that the rep said something like "do you want the
>> new single card, or the older style?" and he said "new one" without
>> realizing that it was an enhanced RFID card.
>
>Not likely. But if that did occur, it should have piqued his mind to ask
>what the new single card is.
Why? There have already been a number of changes to license formats
over the years, going right back to the multipart paper designs that my
parents used when I was a kid (and probably more further back)
Unless you're aware going in that you want to avoid a particular format,
additional questions won't really help with anything.
Even if questions were asked, how would an answer of "the old format is
only good for identification but not proof of citizenship, the new
format will allow you to cross the US border by land too" have made any
difference?
>And even if he said yes to it, the path to getting one is considerably
>different than getting the standard one, since the
>standard one does not require additional ID. All one does is turn in the old
>driver licence and pose in front of the camera.
I couldn't tell you what the current process is like for renewal,
although I can tell you that the last time I renewed mine there was
absolutely no posing involved, but I did have to fill out an affidavit.
If you don't know exactly what is involved in the process, why would
"our hero" be expected to know what paperwork is or is not required, and
even if "our hero" did know what the policies were yesterday, how would
he know they hadn't changed today and what would be the point in wasting
everyone's time with 20 questions since ultimately you either jump
through the hoops like a good boy and get your biscuit, or don't and you
don't get to drive.
Gerrald Arnasen
> In message <3_SEl.21860$Db2.11770@edtnps83> "Gerrald Arnasen"
> <g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>
>>"DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
>>news:18v6u4hgtakrlfu5o...@4ax.com...
>>> In message <8ubEl.22748$PH1.13583@edtnps82> "Gerrald Arnasen"
>>> <g...@langfordcomz.org> was claimed to have wrote:
>>>
>>>>Actually in reading all of this, the only error committed was by you.
>>>>You
>>>>weren't paying attention . You ended up
>>>>with the Enhanced Driver licence which you are all aflutter about which
>>>>is
>>>>entirely optional and not compulosory.
>>>
>>> It's entirely possible that the rep said something like "do you want the
>>> new single card, or the older style?" and he said "new one" without
>>> realizing that it was an enhanced RFID card.
>>
>>Not likely. But if that did occur, it should have piqued his mind to ask
>>what the new single card is.
>
> Why? There have already been a number of changes to license formats
> over the years, going right back to the multipart paper designs that my
> parents used when I was a kid (and probably more further back)
True, but those are successive changes, not parallel options. In other
words, there has been changes to licence formats,
but the mechanics of renewal is the same. He just wasn't paying attention
when if there was a question asked as to which one he was interested in
getting
>
> Unless you're aware going in that you want to avoid a particular format,
> additional questions won't really help with anything.
Yes they will, you'll see the steps in front of your nose. The Enhanced
Driver Licence is not the 'default' selection, but is an
option.
> Even if questions were asked, how would an answer of "the old format is
> only good for identification but not proof of citizenship, the new
> format will allow you to cross the US border by land too" have made any
> difference?
To many it does, since it replaces the use of a passport to cross the
border. Otherwise you need a passport to cross the
border. The standard licence is secondary ID, using it on its own will not
get you across the border.
>>And even if he said yes to it, the path to getting one is considerably
>>different than getting the standard one, since the
>>standard one does not require additional ID. All one does is turn in the
>>old
>>driver licence and pose in front of the camera.
>
> I couldn't tell you what the current process is like for renewal,
> although I can tell you that the last time I renewed mine there was
> absolutely no posing involved, but I did have to fill out an affidavit.
I can, it's quite simple. Go to your Motor Vehicle Branch. Surrender your
old licence and you'll get a new standard one
upon payment of the fee, and pose in front of the camera. You'll get a paper
temporary licence. There are no additional
questions or forms to complete. I did my renewal in December. Very quick and
efficient.
It's a bit odd to fill out an affidavit for a licence renewal.
> If you don't know exactly what is involved in the process, why would
> "our hero" be expected to know what paperwork is or is not required, and
> even if "our hero" did know what the policies were yesterday, how would
> he know they hadn't changed today and what would be the point in wasting
> everyone's time with 20 questions since ultimately you either jump
> through the hoops like a good boy and get your biscuit, or don't and you
> don't get to drive.
He should have known better. He simply wasn't paying attention. He went
through completing the forms of consent and
wasn't paying attention and now he's squealing like a stuck pig about the
RFID chip which just carries an identifier numeric
and nothing else. And this guy is supposedly knowledgeable about data
handling (he mentioned he was an Oracle engineer, but anyone can write a
statement like that.
Gerrald Arnasen
"Nobody" <n...@home.anymore> wrote in message
> him he wasn't paying attention? He argued the point for days until
> he realized the truth.
Exactly. Plus the fact that the Enhanced Driver licence has to be arranged
and signed for, something which isn't done in an ordinary renewal (you just
turn over your old licence, pay the fee, stare at the camera, and you're
done). No additional
ID, nothoing.
>
> He prides himself on being intellectually superior but failed
> miserably with this.
Sometimes during that debate, I wondered if this guy was intellectually
superior, but very much lacking in the practical
department.
> Notice that he also failed to admit he was wrong. Something else I
> have never seen him do in this forum.
Few of them do. Mark Hansel (our resident joker and is also "Captain Chaos")
has been wrong on many things, but he
just rants and throws his hands around.
> Everyone makes mistakes (which Chom is more than willing to point
> out) EXCEPT for him.
Very true.
> Kind of funny to watch.
Entertainment that's for sure!
How about a High Five?? *slap!*
Awwright! Bring 'er downtown... * a low high five* *slap* aawwright.
Who is our next victim?
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP Chaos in the Cosmos
Gerrald Arnasen is a socilaist kook and terrorist who doesn't respect people
rights or freedom, but then his just another embezzler just like the police
state goons are....monkey see, monkey do....isn't that right Kent, you
fucking retard!
Gerrald Arnasen
"Chaos in the Cosmos" <Chaos.in.the.Cosmos
.@.4world.political.trash.net.97UOP> wrote in message
Mark is a libertarian right wing nut and idiot who doesn't respect people's
rights and freedoms of expression, but then he is just another conspirator
just like
Alex Jones is.. monkey see, monkey do.. isn't that right Mark, you fucked up
headcase!