BBEdit losing its punch?
Errol
other guys, losing the eccentricities that make it so useful and
comfortable (and superior) to me.
Long ago I bemoaned the loss of a helpful "bug/feature" that allowed
me to quickly move down a column, making changes, and remaining in
that column. BareBones labeled this "curious up/down bug" and removed
it, replaced it, and permanently removed it again (never to be seen
again) rather than making it an optional feature.
Now with the jump to 9, they have made the find and replace keystrokes
I use daily (read live by) and relegated them to an optional old style
modal search box. (Not to mention the lack of an option to turn off
editing within Disk Browsers. And other little nuance changes that I'm
noticing throughout the day...)
I know there were features I lost in 8.0 and 8.6 as well, and now as
the feature set keeps dwindling to become more like the competition
I'm forced to consider wether BareBones isn't trying to encourage me
to switch to a less expensive competitor. If I'm going to have to pay
to lose 1 great feature to get a handful of new features, which will
also rewrite my muscle memory for the key commands (or make my list of
customizations grow), I have to wonder why I bother upgrading at
all...
Most of the features I chose BBEdit for originally have been renamed,
moved, or removed since I first paid for my upgrade from BBEdit
Lite... The features that remain unique to BBEdit are mostly not
something I use.
Every time BareBones asks me for more money to stay current I find
myself downloading demos of TextMate and Coda, only to find that
there's still some tiny facet of BBEdit's philosophy that I still can
hang on to —those facets are rapidly falling away...
I'd dig out my copy of BBEdit 7 if it worked halfway decently on an
Intel Mac with 10.5...
Anyone else feel the same?
I'm sure eventually I'll give into change, and after a few weeks of
lowered productivity I'll cope with the new version —I just find it
terrible that "cope" and "new version" go hand in hand. Every new
version of Mac OS X, Transmit, Apple Mail, Photoshop, pretty much
every app I meet with each day usually brings about enough new and
useful (and intuitive) change that I would never use the word "cope"
to describe acclimating to them... BBEdit has been the only really
consistent love/hate piece of software I've owned, every time a new
version comes out I'm excited to try it and within 10 minutes totally
bummed out by it, only to eventually "settle" for what BareBones
thinks is best.
Johan Solve
>Now with the jump to 9, they have made the find and replace keystrokes
>I use daily (read live by) and relegated them to an optional old style
>modal search box.
>Anyone else feel the same?
I haven't tried 9.0 yet but "Search from top" is definitely something I will miss, and at the same time a non-modal find/replace dialog is something I've been longing for. So far those two desires seem incompatible in BBEdit 9.0.
--
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Morbus Iff
Not until you give more specific examples, nope.
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Johan Solve
>At 12.36 -0700 2008-09-03, Errol wrote:
>>Now with the jump to 9, they have made the find and replace keystrokes
>>I use daily (read live by) and relegated them to an optional old style
>>modal search box.
>...
>>Anyone else feel the same?
>
>I haven't tried 9.0 yet but "Search from top" is definitely something I will miss, and at the same time a non-modal find/replace dialog is something I've been longing for. So far those two desires seem incompatible in BBEdit 9.0.
After reading Jim's explanation I now understand why those two are incompatible. I guess I should have tried it first...
klan...@gmail.com
>I have to say that with each release BBEdit becomes more like the
>other guys, losing the eccentricities that make it so useful and
>comfortable (and superior) to me.
[snip]
>Anyone else feel the same?
Not at all. Each new version has introduced new or improved
features that have only increased my productivity --- Projects
being the OMG feature in this version. The change from file
groups to projects required that I shift my workspace around and
that means having to retrain mouse memory. But the new
implementation is already streamlining how I work and I can
already see improvements to my efficiency.
Now I'm not a programmer. I'm strictly a HTML/CSS coder. And I'm
sure each of us will have their own take on this. But so far,
nothing in 9 has made me long for version 8.
Ken
--
Simple Lives Web Design
http://simplelives.com
Errol Sayre
taken care of. I'm fairly certain my impression will improve
drastically when popup menus aren't jumping from one monitor to
another and the text completion gets straightened out... (that's
literally a whole other discussion...) as well as a few other things
that I haven't pinpointed but occasionally cause BBEdit to freak out.
Just generally this release feels like a step backward to me.
As to new features, if projects and partial completion are the new
whizbang things, that just proves my point that BBEdit is just
becoming more like TextMate. Personally I don't see much use out of
projects because I already have my "project" in its directory
structure and the Disk Browser does an excellent job of showing me
that (though most of my problems with popups stem from using the disk
browser on my second monitor). I never have projects that are
collections of text files in disparate folders. If I'm working on
files in separate folders the layout of those files are subordinates
of the root folder of my disk browser.
And text completion should complete language keywords... why shouldn't
it complete "require_once" or even "echo" these are PHP keywords I use
all day long... What I really want is something that learns what I use
most and tries to complete it first, but I'd settle for something that
would simply include language keywords...
It's generally the things that are distinct from TextMate that keep me
using BBEdit; as those things disappear the benefits of the
competition become more enticing. That's my opinion and you don't have
to share it.
Anyway, I asked if anyone else feels similar, and apparently no one
does.
johnde...@gmail.com
>I haven't tried 9.0 yet but "Search from top" is definitely
>something I will miss, and at the same time a non-modal find/replace
>dialog is something I've been longing for. So far those two desires
>seem incompatible in BBEdit 9.0.
I think it doesn't take long to get into the habit of typing
command+(a<leftarrow>f) to place the cursor at the start. Thank
goodness indeed for the non-modal find window at last.
JD
G. T. Stresen-Reuter
> Anyway, I asked if anyone else feels similar, and apparently no one
> does.
Be sure to submit all of your bugs to sup...@barebones.com and use
the following format:
Bug: (name of bug)
Description: (one or two lines summarizing issue)
Preconditions: (anything that needs to be happening prior to taking
the steps that lead to the bug)
Expected Behavior: (the steps and outcomes you expect from BBEdit)
Actual Behavior: (the actual behavior at step n that BBEdit is doing
(wrong) and that differs from Expected)
Workarounds: (steps that can be taken to get the Expected behavior in
spite of BBEdit)
Attachments: (files in which the Expected behavior fails)
In my experience, Bare Bones (and most software developers in
general) respond very positively to bug reports using this format,
particularly when they are sent to the support email address (rather
than airing the issue in public).
Also, did you read Jim's note about "Start at Top"? Although I don't
have an issue with the new behavior, I found the argument behind the
new functionality to be very compelling. I find it hard to imagine it
working any other way, in fact.
HTH
Ted Stresen-Reuter
(BBEdit user since at least 6.5, probably earlier)
Maarten Sneep
On 3 sep 2008, at 21:36, Errol wrote:
> Long ago I bemoaned the loss of a helpful "bug/feature" that allowed
> me to quickly move down a column, making changes, and remaining in
> that column. BareBones labeled this "curious up/down bug" and removed
> it, replaced it, and permanently removed it again (never to be seen
> again) rather than making it an optional feature.
You mean edit something in column 12 (thereby moving to column 13),
and by pressing the down-arrow key, magically end up in column 12
again? That one was indeed very useful. There was a particular order
to the sequence, but the functionality was there.
> Now with the jump to 9, they have made the find and replace keystrokes
> I use daily (read live by) and relegated them to an optional old style
> modal search box. (Not to mention the lack of an option to turn off
> editing within Disk Browsers. And other little nuance changes that I'm
> noticing throughout the day...)
Note that the new modeless find dialog has (new) keystrokes for most
functions - replace to end is not active if the find dialog box is in
front.
Read the release notes, they have a list of the new modifiers, search
for "Keyboard navigation is radically different" in http://www.barebones.com/support/bbedit/current_notes.html
. The changes were needed because the dialog is no longer modal -
yes, that sucks a bit, muscle memory and such. Progress without change
is not possible, get used to that.
> I'd dig out my copy of BBEdit 7 if it worked halfway decently on an
> Intel Mac with 10.5...
>
> Anyone else feel the same?
No. There are a lot of additions that I couldn't do without that
appeared in the meantime. Yes, this is a ".0" release; I'm sure that
an updated version will appear that addresses the reported issues.
I for one have been amazed by the creativity of the Bare Bones gang,
and some of the new features are implemented in a way that are
innovative in my opinion.
Maarten
Graham Nelson
> I'm sure eventually I'll give into change, and after a few weeks of
> lowered productivity I'll cope with the new version —I just find it
> version comes out I'm excited to try it and within 10 minutes totally
> bummed out by it, only to eventually "settle" for what BareBones
> thinks is best.
features this time, I think, yes, the screenshot looks like what I
wanted, but it turns out to be no good because they didn't also do X,
Y and Z. Auto-completion inappropriately uses the system dictionary
(and by default it's too in-your-face - the default should absolutely
be manual, not automatic), I can't search collections in projects, I'm
trying to get codeless language modules to do something they seem too
weak to support, etc., etc.
It's so easy to fall into thinking this way. But fundamentally the
point is that BBEdit is a superbly reliable editor, capable of
handling massive files, integrating nicely with the Terminal. I trust
it to edit files which I absolutely must not corrupt or lose - in a
way that I really do not trust Microsoft Word, for instance. BBEdit's
weaknesses are around the edges; its strength is at the core. You
really wouldn't want that the other way round. I would have paid for
the upgrade even if there were no new features at all - this is a code
base whose continued maintenance is in all of our interests, and
throwing $30 into the pot every couple of years is hardly punitive.
BBEdit is also, in my view, really rather good at the apparently small
things, the things which don't make fanfares on the website. The best
feature in BBEdit 8 was the subtle, but very helpful, redesign of the
editing window. The best thing in BBEdit 9, for me, is the really
clean way it reopens just where it was, with my current project just
as it was. "It quits and restarts nicely" is never going to make a
top-10 list of new features. But I'm glad they put effort into it.
In the end, text editors are always love-hate programs. You hate
anyone changing anything about them, except that you are desperate to
get the changes you yourself want.
And besides again... as somebody who releases software myself, I find
it a salutary experience being on the other end of the transaction -
that is, being a user who is at the mercy of what BBEdit's authors
choose to work on, or to remove, or to change. I find myself posting
slightly cross-looking questions, just the way my users do, and read
very patient replies from Jim, of the sort I sometimes write myself.
It's not easy writing an application for a great cross-section of
people who all want, or think they want, different things.
Greg Hemphill
On Sep 3, 2008, at 3:36 PM, Errol wrote:
> I have to say that with each release BBEdit becomes more like the
> other guys, losing the eccentricities that make it so useful and
> comfortable (and superior) to me.
> Long ago I bemoaned the loss of a helpful "bug/feature" that allowed
> me to quickly move down a column, making changes, and remaining in
> that column. BareBones labeled this "curious up/down bug" and removed
> it, replaced it, and permanently removed it again (never to be seen
> again) rather than making it an optional feature.
For those who don't know what he's talking about it worked something
like this...
Lets say you need to create an html form with lots of similarly named
inputs, and wanted to put a number after the name of each field to
distinguish it... like so:
<input type="text" name="Item1" value="" size="20" />
<input type="text" name="Item2" value="" size="20" />
<input type="text" name="Item3" value="" size="20" />
<input type="text" name="Item4" value="" size="20" />
& etc.
You could create something like:
<input type="text" name="Item" value="" size="20" />
and cut and paste that line as many times as you needed. Then put your
cursor just before the last quote in the name attribute. When you
typed a number and hit the down arrow it placed the cursor in the same
spot on the next line (just before the last quote of the name
attribute). So you could just pound out number and hit the down arrow.
Now when you do this and hit the down arrow it moves the cursor to the
exact character position it was in the line above, and since you
entered a number (adding a character to the cursors position) it
places your cursor outside the quote. So now you have to do a little
dance with the down arrow, back arrow, then hit the number... and when
you get into multiple digits more back arrows... it's not a huge deal
but I always end up goofing up when I have a lot to iterate through.
I would welcome the return of this feature/bug, or an option to turn
it on/off.
Greg
Peter N Lewis
>Anyone else feel the same?
Not at all, I think 9 is a great update.
Sure, there are perhaps a few rough edges, I think particularly the
big change with the Find dialogs is going to take a bit of time to
smooth down so it is as good as ten years of development on the old
find dialog box produced, but that's the nature of change, you have
to actually use it for a while to see what works and what doesn't.
But on the other hand, wow, 9 adds some great things. Editing in
results/browser windows! The Scratchpad is surprisingly useful.
Sub-line differences! Double click " to select the string!
These alone are fantastic changes, then there are the other hundred or so...
Peter.
--
Keyboard Maestro 3 Now Available!
Now With Status Menu triggers!
Keyboard Maestro <http://www.keyboardmaestro.com/> Macros for your Mac
<http://www.stairways.com/> <http://download.stairways.com/>
Peter N Lewis
><input type="text" name="Item2" value="" size="20" />
><input type="text" name="Item3" value="" size="20" />
><input type="text" name="Item4" value="" size="20" />
>& etc.
>
>You could create something like:
><input type="text" name="Item" value="" size="20" />
>and cut and paste that line as many times as you needed. Then put your
>cursor just before the last quote in the name attribute. When you
>typed a number and hit the down arrow it placed the cursor in the same
>spot on the next line (just before the last quote of the name
>attribute). So you could just pound out number and hit the down arrow.
Unfortunately, that behaviour clearly is incorrect and buggy, no
matter that it is useful in this particular case.
One way you could solve this case would be to paste the initial line in twice:
<input type="text" name="Item" value="" size="20" />
<input type="text" name="Item" value="" size="20" />
Now select from the second quote on the first line (inclusive) to the
second quote on the second line (exclusive), and cut.
Now just type the number and Command-V, repeat.
Better yet, map a function key to command-V so you don't have the
problem of pressing a modifier mucking up your typing.
An alternative is to map a function key to option-left arrow, down
arrow, option right arrow. This is the sort of thing I would do with
a Quick Recorded Macro, but you can use the first technique with
BBEdit out of the box.
Enjoy,
adrinux
> Well, I've decided to stick with 8 until some of the bugs in 9.0 get
> taken care of.
You do seem mostly to be complaining about change, and having to get
used to a new way of doing things.
> and the text completion gets straightened out...
Certainly it needs a little work yet...but at the same time I find
using text completion is a bit like learning to ride a bicycle,
there's a rhythm to it you need to get used too - at first it will
slow you down but once you 'get it' coding is much faster and you
wonder how you ever did without it. I've been using Textmate as my
editor of choice for the last few months, and CSSEdit for longer and
I'd already sworn to myself I wasn't going to upgrade BBEdit anymore
unless it gained autocompletion.
Whilst I can't agree that BBEdit is 'losing its punch' (in fact it
gains punch all the time!), I have felt it's taken a back seat in
favour of Bare Bones other, newer, applications. It's been losing out
to the competition because it's not changing fast enough. Dreamweaver
had autocompletion 4 years ago, ditto Textmate I think, not to mention
a pile of other code editors. I'm sure adding it to BBEdit was harder
because of the wider range of languages it supports, but *4* years?
And it doesn't even seem that polished or powerful compared to other
apps...
Adrian
stratboy
an xhtml/js/as programmer.
Every new release helped me a lot with new productivity features! And
this one, with auto-completion (I asked a lot for it and finally it's
there!!! :) ) and improved project management, after a few days is
already giving me a lot of joy while working. Sure, it's a .0 version,
therefore maybe it needs some adjustments (and I'm already writing to
the support team abou them), but for me, it just rocks! :)
Errol Sayre
>> Well, I've decided to stick with 8 until some of the bugs in 9.0 get
>> taken care of.
> Well, I think you're officially now a 'grumpy old man' Errol :)
I've pretty much always been one... but I don't really have time to
adjust to a new version now. I use BBEdit constantly —I spend more
time in it than Mail and Safari combined. In fact, I quite often use
BBEdit to help clean up emails or compose them from scratch, as well
as handle the beginning of Word documents —let alone the fact that I
use it for PHP/HTML/Javascript/CSS/XML documents —pretty much my
entire day is spent in this program...
Most of my complaints are due to simply being frustrated with typical .
0 release bumps. I'll eventually get used to the new search and
replace methods, (though I hate that I have to add another couple
keystrokes to my work, which adds up over the course of a day) but I
just see BBEdit losing the character I've loved since BBEdit Lite...
Obviously for any good thing to improve there has to be some pruning,
I just seems like it's always the stuff I like (and no one else does)
that gets pruned.
Errol Sayre
>
>> <input type="text" name="Item1" value="" size="20" />
>> <input type="text" name="Item2" value="" size="20" />
>> <input type="text" name="Item3" value="" size="20" />
>> <input type="text" name="Item4" value="" size="20" />
>> & etc.
>>
>> You could create something like:
>> <input type="text" name="Item" value="" size="20" />
>> and cut and paste that line as many times as you needed. Then put
>> your
>> cursor just before the last quote in the name attribute. When you
>> typed a number and hit the down arrow it placed the cursor in the
>> same
>> spot on the next line (just before the last quote of the name
>> attribute). So you could just pound out number and hit the down
>> arrow.
>
> Unfortunately, that behaviour clearly is incorrect and buggy, no
> matter that it is useful in this particular case.
I would love to see a feature added called "Sticky Column Editing" or
something that could do this.
However, I have to admit that due to this feature being removed so
long ago, I was forced to finally start thinking about things in terms
of Grep patterns that could do what I want, and in doing so I've
typically been able to solve the same problem more gracefully since...
In examples like Greg provided, however, I think a "sticky column
mode" would be superior...
Errol Sayre
> Well, I'm using BBEdit since about 1999,with Mac Os 8.6 or so...
Let me also add that I've been using BBEdit since 96 or so (probably
been using the paid version since 01 I think), and have never had to
contact support in that 12 year period —that's how good of a product
BBEdit is.
Lewis@Gmail
> Well, I've decided to stick with 8 until some of the bugs in 9.0 get
> taken care of. I'm fairly certain my impression will improve
> drastically when popup menus aren't jumping from one monitor to
> another and the text completion gets straightened out... (that's
> literally a whole other discussion...) as well as a few other things
> that I haven't pinpointed but occasionally cause BBEdit to freak out.
> Just generally this release feels like a step backward to me.
Speaking of things popping about, does anyone still see issues with
BBEdit9 and spaces? I find that, at seemingly random times, the
sidebar gets detached from its window and ends up on another space. I
then hide it and show it and it's back.
I don't use the sidebar that much, so I'd guess other people see this
a lot more than I do.
> What I really want is something that learns what I use most and
> tries to complete it first,
Agreed. This is, I think, going to be the next-big thing in
computers. Perhaps not the NEXT next-big-thing, but a next-big thing
at some point. I've written about this a few times with regards to
spell-checking, spell checkers should learn my writing style and learn
how I spell things and most importantly, learn to recognize things I
*don't* say.
For example, I almost never use the word 'tot'. It is not misspelt,
but if I could mark as a misspelling I would because 99.999% of the
time that it appears in my writing it is a typo for 'to the' or 'to
that' or 'to <some other word starting with t>' There's no reason my
computer can't learn that.
The text-completion in BB9 is almost always annoying at this point,
but I am giving it a chance.
--
#27794 <Vellius> ... I wonder if the really nerdy
Klingons learn how to speak english
Errol Sayre
> The text-completion in BB9 is almost always annoying at this point,
> but I am giving it a chance.
Agreed. It's just odd to me the things that it does complete versus
the ones it doesn't. I don't particularly want to invest in tweaking a
ton of clippings either...
Ray
Jim Correia
Ray,
BBEdit should only display the "No completions available" indicator if
- you have manually asked for completions, and there aren't any
- there were completions, but you've eliminated them by incremental
typing
(backspacing will make them re-appear once there are matches)
There is a bug in 9.0 where in certain situations, the completion
panel can chase you across the page and inappropriate display both
completions or "No completions available." This will be addressed in
an update.
If the problem persists after the update is available, please write to
support with enough information for us to reproduce the problem so we
can determine if this is intentional or not, and make any fixes as
necessary.
Jim
Dennis
> Dreamweaver had autocompletion 4 years ago, ditto Textmate I think, not to mention
> a pile of other code editors. I'm sure adding it to BBEdit was harder
> because of the wider range of languages it supports, but *4* years?
> And it doesn't even seem that polished or powerful compared to other
> apps.
bbautocomplete/)? It's been around for over 6 years and worked well in
BBEdit.
One might argue that BBAutoComplete is a third-party add-on and
doesn't count because it's not part of BBEdit itself. But that kind of
third-party extensibility is highly-regarded in TextMate; in fact, the
vast majority of TextMate's advanced text-crunching power comes from
third-party bundles. So shouldn't the same hold true for BBEdit's
extensibility? If so, then auto-completion was actually available in
BBEdit before TextMate even existed!
And in some respects, using BBAutoComplete is superior to TextMate's
auto-complete: BBAutoComplete has the option to pull completions from
all open documents (not just the current document) and from the system
dictionary (maybe not useful for coding, but quite handy for writing
prose).
When coupled with BBEdit's Insert Clipping command (particularly with
a keyboard shortcut), you end up with a pretty darn good system.
But I think BBEdit 9's implementation is even better:
(1) I like that auto-completion matches are presented in a hovering,
scrollable list instead of cycling through matches inline (as in
TextMate and BBAutoComplete). I've always admired this kind of auto-
completion in other apps (e.g. SubEthaEdit, Xcode's CodeSense, OS X's
NSTextView etc.) and I'm glad Bare Bones took this approach.
(2) The source of the match is indicated with an icon, making it
easier to distinguish between multiple options.
(3) Auto-completion can trigger automatically like Xcode's CodeSense
(BBAutoComplete and TextMate require a key press). I know some people
find this intrusive, but after getting used to it, I've come to really
like it. It has improved my typing speed in both code and prose, and I
really miss it whenever I switch to another app. It kind of reminds me
of the predictive typing on the iPhone.
-Dennis
whoughton
>
> Speaking of things popping about, does anyone still see issues with
> then hide it and show it and it's back.
>
BBEdit and my browser in another space. I often lose the sidebar, and
sometimes bbedit itself jumps into a space I am switching into. Very
frustrating and annoying. I'm really liking the new projects feature,
though I feel like the window layout wastes a lot of space, and I
don't really want to switch back to textmate again, but why does it
feel like BBEdit is always playing catchup anymore?
Thinkingman.com
I've been a user of BBEdit since (I'm pretty sure) about version 3 or
4 (!) and a very, very different system it was back then.
I completely and totally 100% agree with you. I love BBEdit's new
features. But, one thing that has made products like BBEdit,
Photoshop, etc., useful to so many people for so many years has been
the fact that while they do increase and improve their feature set,
they never forget their legacy users, who are now experts in “that
program”—and who are usually not willing to learn new keystrokes and
new ways of doing the same old thing.
As a UI dude, I believe that the UI should never, ever change its
functionality in a way that breaks the old method of operating, where
possible.
So, while I do think that BBEdit 9 is a vast improvement, I'm hedging
my bets a bit. Yes, it has lost a bit of its identity to other
programs, but it is still (to me) vastly superior.
I don't like the fact that the Find dialog, the thing I probably use
more than any other feature, consistently, now has absolutely no
similar keystrokes, and my productivity has dropped by about 20-45%
because of the delays in clicking and moving my mouse around when my
hands never had to leave the keyboard before.
I like BBEdit, and will buy this new version. But I really do want to
see my keystrokes back, and I really want some of my favorite addons
to become available again (like automatic PHP function lookup, not
autocomplete!).
Mahalo,
Adam
Rich Siegel
wrote:
>As a UI dude, I believe that the UI should never, ever change its
>functionality in a way that breaks the old method of operating, where
>possible.
Right. That's why there's an option to use the old Find dialog,
for those with entrenched reflexes or workflows.
:-),
R.
--
Rich Siegel Bare Bones Software, Inc.
<sie...@barebones.com> <http://www.barebones.com/>
Someday I'll look back on all this and laugh... until they
sedate me.
Jim Correia
> On Sep 4, 1:28 pm, "Lewis@Gmail" <gkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> Speaking of things popping about, does anyone still see issues with
>> BBEdit9 andspaces? I find that, at seemingly random times, the
>> sidebar gets detached from its window and ends up on another
>> space. I
>> then hide it and show it and it's back.
>>
>
> I'm seeing this a ton, since I keep my CSS editor in one space with
> BBEdit and my browser in another space. I often lose the sidebar, and
> sometimes bbedit itself jumps into a space I am switching into.
I'd love to be able to fix this bug for you, but unfortunately it is a
bug in Mac OS X's support for Spaces without a workaround.
BBEdit is not the only application affected by the problem. We've
reported it to Apple, and look forward to the fix as much as you do.
Jim
Jim Correia
> I completely and totally 100% agree with you. I love BBEdit's new
> features. But, one thing that has made products like BBEdit,
> Photoshop, etc., useful to so many people for so many years has been
> the fact that while they do increase and improve their feature set,
> they never forget their legacy users, who are now experts in “that
> program”—and who are usually not willing to learn new keystrokes and
> new ways of doing the same old thing.
>
> As a UI dude, I believe that the UI should never, ever change its
> functionality in a way that breaks the old method of operating, where
> possible.
The non-modal Find window represents a now UI paradigm for BBEdit. It
differs, in some intrinsic ways, from the previous method used.
Preserving the old keyboard equivalents for the buttons, for example,
was simply not possible in a non-modal Find window, since they
conflict with standard keyboard shortcuts for menubar commands which
are globally available.
It is for this reason (preserving the UI reflexes of existing users)
that we left the option to use the modal Find dialog in place.
Jim
hkrems
thank you for pointing out some of the really annoying 'new features'
in version 9.
I am using BBedit as long as you do - and now it sucks. This isn't the
first time an update made a good product less useable, putting in
fancy features that cut down productivity instead of increasing it and
gracefully ignoring any previously submitted bug reports or feature
requests that were sent to them.
Some examples I have not read above:
• auto-completion isn't that helpful when trying to write text in
english using a german keyboard. You only get the current system
language.
• why are (some of) the php functions suddenly coloured in green? The
language module knows them, is it that complicated to paint words that
come from the language in blue (like before) and paint words that were
found in other sources as green? IMHO it's more important to color the
keyword (function, constant...) in the color that has been chosen for
that language - and not in the color for this auto-complete-feature.
turning off auto-completion doesn't help.
• is it so difficult to check the php module to allow a php5 class
definition using more than one interface without breaking the function
hierarchy? since two years this is reported as bug, confirmed from
bbedit and --- nada. ignored.
example: class foo extends bar implements if_foo, if_bar {}
• am I the only one who wants to turn off many of the languages in the
language popup? I don't need to see the impressive list of language
modules they have built in - choosing among the few that I use every
day would be enough, faster, useful.
• I'm certainly not the only one who wants to have an option like
"File Path" to the filtering options of the Multi-File-Search options.
Sometimes I have to find strings like 'require_once' in all my php
files of a website. But I want to skip the whole 'libraries' - folder
(where lots of foreign classes are stored in files and subfolders).
> I completely and totally 100% agree with you. I love BBEdit's new
> features. But, one thing that has made products like BBEdit,
to 8.7.2.
The only feature that was nice was editing in the browser window.
> Photoshop, etc., useful to so many people for so many years has been
> the fact that while they do increase and improve their feature set,
> they never forget their legacy users, who are now experts in “that
> program”—and who are usually not willing to learn new keystrokes and
> new ways of doing the same old thing.
> As a UI dude, I believe that the UI should never, ever change its
> functionality in a way that breaks the old method of operating, where
> possible.
> So, while I do think that BBEdit 9 is a vast improvement, I'm hedging
> my bets a bit. Yes, it has lost a bit of its identity to other
> programs, but it is still (to me) vastly superior.
>
> I don't like the fact that the Find dialog, the thing I probably use
> more than any other feature, consistently, now has absolutely no
> similar keystrokes, and my productivity has dropped by about 20-45%
> because of the delays in clicking and moving my mouse around when my
> hands never had to leave the keyboard before.
> I like BBEdit, and will buy this new version. But I really do want to
> see my keystrokes back, and I really want some of my favorite addons
> to become available again (like automatic PHP function lookup, not
> autocomplete!).
some day not too far from now BBedit 9 will be as good and useful as
it was in the previous versions. Then it may wear the "It still
doesn't suck" badge again and I'll use it for production.
Harald (grumpy ol' man candidate)
mark12b
on. :-) i've reverted to 8.6 after purchasing the 9.0 upgrade.
i tried to like the two new find dialogs but couldn't stand them. i
always try a find/replace on the front document first, and if that
works i hit cmd-m and do a multi-file search/replace. and just like
that the dialog gets out of the way. the new system of dialogs and
shortcuts and what has focus under which conditions and having to get
rid of *two* open dialogs once the replacing is done (with the
keyboard but without accidentally closing a document window, keeping
in mind that the find dialogs aren't necessarily the frontmost
windows) is just too confusing and cumbersome to me. i don't really
see the love for modeless dialogs as you still need a click or
keystroke to activate them anyway, might as well have them hidden in
the meantime (and it's a *feature* that they automatically go away
when they're done doing what they do). i don't like the new find
dialog's keyboard shortcuts, they interfere with the "shortcut space"
i've been using for application launching/switching for a few years
now (i know i can switch them but it's a hassle, and i can't switch
them to what they used to be anyway). start at top missing, i never
got used to that that (wrap around is not the same thing (and seemed
to get un-set whenever i wasn't paying attention), and moving the
cursor to the beginning of the document before starting a find isn't
the same thing either). although i was glad to know that the modal
find dialog was still an option i expect that it will disappear
completely before long.
what bugs me the most is the decision to pollute my documents folder
with bbedit backups. barebones was the last company i'd have expected
to do that. microsoft, yes, they don't respect stuff like that, but
barebones? actually microsoft office lets me put their folder in ~/
Library, though remote desktop connection doesn't. the suggestion in
the release notes to use an alias if i want my backups elsewhere is
just plain insulting. the whole reason for wanting a pref for saving
it elsewhere is because i don't want to see program-generated and un-
relocatable folders in *my* documents folder. if this is an area where
programs store their data, then where am i supposed to store my stuff?
the desktop? what's wrong with storing stuff in my library, it's good
enough for Mail and its attachments..
scratchpad is a good idea, though i never got in the habit of using it
-- cmd-n then do stuff then cmd-a-x-w worked great in 8.6... but in 9
there's an extra "Save Changes?" dialog at the end there (why would i
want a save confirmation when closing a newly-created and completely-
empty document? seeing nice touches like this disappear is
disheartening). plus, the scratchpad is yet another separate window to
manage -- if i have find, multi-file find, and scratchpad open, i
don't really have room for my document anymore...
auto-complete, meh. i usually look at my fingers while typing anyway,
so this sort of feature has never been helpful to me, and when i do
look at the screen i hate having tooltip-y things in the way. and by
the time i get far enough into the word to have the right one show up
in the list, i might as well finish typing it. i guess if i needed the
help with spelling i'd like this feature more.
i thought i'd love the ability to edit directly in multi-file find
results but in practice i found it confusing and not especially
efficient (it's ok for small changes here and there but for working in
a "batch" mindset it's still better to open a bunch of documents
normally). same thing with the disk browser -- it makes sense to be
able to edit documents there but if i have to save each one before
moving to the next, it's cumbersome to do so.
Greg Hemphill
over a month that we've been using the new features so we have a
little better idea how much these problems are due to needing to
adjust to new ways, and how much they simply aren't better. The only
thing I like more about the non-modal box is that you can resize it
and see larger text entry fields (useful if you are replacing large
blocks of text) and syntax coloring in the search fields, but I don't
see why this couldn't be added to the modal version. However these
are pretty minor improvements and doesn't even begin to cover the loss
of multi-file replace and no start at top feature.
I forced my self to use the new non-modal search, because I figured
there was some big advantage to it I just wasn't seeing. Think it's
about time to switch back to the old way. Or is there some advantage
to the modal search I'm not seeing... I can't think of a single
benefit to having search non-modal (devs must have liked something
about it, right?).
The Make Backup Now feature is still sorely missed... I have no clue
why they'd remove it and not have any kind of suitable replacement...
still baffled by this one.
Why they don't bother to support Lasso still boggles my mind.
On a positive note... I like the new projects feature... makes it
really easy to go pick up where I left off on a project (esp. after
being pulled off it for awhile).
Greg
I've forced myself to use the modal search, because I figured I wasn't
getting some aspect of it and that I would find some benefit to it
after extended use.
Patrick James
>
> Interesting to see this thread spring up again. Because it's been
> over a month that we've been using the new features so we have a
> little better idea how much these problems are due to needing to
> adjust to new ways, and how much they simply aren't better. The only
> thing I like more about the non-modal box is that you can resize it
> and see larger text entry fields (useful if you are replacing large
> blocks of text) and syntax coloring in the search fields, but I don't
> see why this couldn't be added to the modal version. However these
> are pretty minor improvements and doesn't even begin to cover the loss
> of multi-file replace and no start at top feature.
There is a multi-file replace.
The "Start at Top" only ever made sense with a modal dialogue because
when it was open you couldn't change the position of the insertion
point in the file.
Put the insertion point at the top of the file.
With the non-modal dialogue you can put the insertion point wherever
you like in the file with find dialogue open.
I was always okay with the older modal system but I'm glad that BBEdit
have introduced non-modal.
You can put expression into Find/Replace dialogue then leave it there
and continue editing without having to use "Don't Find" to keep it
there. I like that :)
I like being able to have the Find/Replace dialogue open beside the
document and just bring it to the front by clicking on it.
Patrick
Lewis@Gmail
> The Make Backup Now feature is still sorely missed... I have no clue
> why they'd remove it and not have any kind of suitable replacement...
> still baffled by this one.
I don't like any of that changes to the backup options. I liked being
able to specify a location and I do NOT like having either backup in a
specific spot or use an alias to put the files where I want. The
whole point is, the backups are not normally visible, instead of
taking up a spot in the Documents folder.
The old system was better, as far as I can see, on all counts.
--
"Katrina, $4 gas, a trillion dollar war, rising unemployment,
deregulated housing market, global warming...NO MORE!"
http://is.gd/2mxY
hkrems
On 8 Okt., 03:15, "Lewis@Gmail" <gkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7-Oct-2008, at 11:44, Greg Hemphill wrote:
>
> > The Make Backup Now feature is still sorely missed... I have no clue
> > why they'd remove it and not have any kind of suitable replacement...
> > still baffled by this one.
>
> I don't like any of that changes to the backup options. I liked being
> able to specify a location and I do NOT like having either backup in a
> specific spot or use an alias to put the files where I want. The
> whole point is, the backups are not normally visible, instead of
> taking up a spot in the Documents folder.
>
> The old system was better, as far as I can see, on all counts.
of bbedit.
It was useful. It was controllable.
Imagine me having an idea to improve some coding that means change
something here and there. The first thing was to make a backup with
"make backup now" :
• the filename was marked with date and time
• I could choose the folder to put it in
That was simple and useful.
What they implemented now is so brrrr - I'll never use it.
Carlton Gibson
>
> On 7-Oct-2008, at 11:44, Greg Hemphill wrote:
>> The Make Backup Now feature is still sorely missed... I have no clue
>> why they'd remove it and not have any kind of suitable replacement...
>> still baffled by this one.
>
>
> I don't like any of that changes to the backup options. I liked being
> able to specify a location and I do NOT like having either backup in a
> specific spot or use an alias to put the files where I want. The
> whole point is, the backups are not normally visible, instead of
> taking up a spot in the Documents folder.
Lewis, did you see my previous post about using Super Get Info to make
the BBEdit Backups folder invisible? If not I suggest you do that.
Carlton Gibson
> PLEASE put the old 'make backup now' back again in all coming versions
> of bbedit.
> It was useful. It was controllable.
> Imagine me having an idea to improve some coding that means change
> something here and there. The first thing was to make a backup with
> "make backup now" :
> • the filename was marked with date and time
> • I could choose the folder to put it in
>
> That was simple and useful.
>
> What they implemented now is so brrrr - I'll never use it.
Have you tried just letting BBEdit make the backups for you? One per
file change, in date ordered folders -- open a day's folder in a disk
browser and with multi-file search you have a mega-powerful change
history management solution... (I just think vowing to never use it is
a little strong, that's all :-)
Patrick James
RobS
After using v9 since the day it came out, my reaction is similar to
many seen in this thread -- but milder.
I've often been a little discomfited by changes when they occur in a
new version of BBEdit, but by the time the next version comes out, the
things that bothered me last time are usually the very things I'm most
comfortable with.
For this version I'm reserving judgement on the Find dialog(s) issue.
I still haven't gotten used to deciding that THIS time I want the
multi-file one, so I have to use another shortcut. My fingers just
keep stabbing at Command-F no matter how many times I chide them. I
assume I will adapt; resistance is futile. However, what I would
rather have is the new Find dialog, but make it an expandable windoid,
so that with a click on a button I can open up the multi-file part of
it, which until then stays out of the way.
Modal or modeless is over my head theoretically. But practically, I
find myself glancing bemusedly at the Find dialog once in a while,
wondering why it's still there in front of my document. At other times
I don't have that reaction, so it seems to be situational. (And I do
recall being annoyed occasionally when earler version Find dialogs
would force me to re-invoke them when I wasn't done whatever I was
trying to do, so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other I
guess.)
The issue of retraining my fingers with new shortcuts is felt less by
me than others, as I'm a constant mouser. I even use a short keyboard
(no number keypad) so the mouse is closer to my right hand.
Start At Top? Never used it. In my work I'm either doing a single find
with optional replace or a Wrap Around find/replace; never anything
else.
As for auto-completion while typing, pah! I turned it off. But then
I've never used it in other programs either, and the reason is my own
typing habits. I type fast, but I'm not looking at the screen while
doing so, so any kind of typing-related pop-up is lost on me.
Projects? Haven't even looked at that one. I keep my work rigidly
organized in the Finder, and I work from there on at most a few
documents at a time, so pretty much any kind of "helpful" document
management system is just going to get in my way.
All else seems comfortable. BBEdit still doesn't suck.
Lewis@Gmail
> Lewis, did you see my previous post about using Super Get Info to make
> the BBEdit Backups folder invisible? If not I suggest you do that.
I did, but that is not a solution, it is a kludge to work around a
failing in BBEdit 9.
And I don't own SuperGetInfo.
Carlton Gibson
>
> On 8-Oct-2008, at 02:34, Carlton Gibson wrote:
>> Lewis, did you see my previous post about using Super Get Info to make
>> the BBEdit Backups folder invisible? If not I suggest you do that.
>
> I did, but that is not a solution, it is a kludge to work around a
> failing in BBEdit 9.
>
> And I don't own SuperGetInfo.
It comes with a 15 day trial.
hkrems
> 2008/10/8 hkrems <Harald.Krems...@gmail.com>:
time.
I prefer to decide myself when I want a backup and where it has to be
put.
Maybe I can do what I want to do using an AppleScript that adds a date-
and-time-stamp to the filename?
Maarten Sneep
> Maybe I can do what I want to do using an AppleScript that adds a
> date-
> and-time-stamp to the filename?
(* Save a copy of the unmodified file upon save.
Usage: save this in a compiled AppleScript under the name
"File•Save.scpt"
in ~/Library/Application Support/BBEdit/Menu Scripts/
Upon save it will copy the old version to a new file with the date &
time of
the save action appended. Note that this is not the modification time
and
date of said file, but rather that of the _next_ save, you can modify
the script
yourself if you want to.
Hope this is helpful. *)
on menuselect(menuName, itemName)
if menuName = "File" and itemName = "Save" then
set makeCopy to false
tell application "BBEdit"
if on disk of document 1 and modified of document 1 and modifiable
of document 1 then
-- document has been saved before
set theFile to file of document 1
set makeCopy to true
end if
end tell
tell application "Finder"
if makeCopy then
set theExt to name extension of theFile
set thePath to POSIX path of theFile
set theDateTime to do shell script "date +'%Y%m%d-%H%M%S.'"
set theName to do shell script "basename " & quoted form of
thePath & " " & theExt
set theDir to do shell script "dirname " & quoted form of thePath
set theNewName to theName & theDateTime & theExt
do shell script "cp " & quoted form of POSIX path of theFile & " "
& quoted form of (theDir & "/" & theNewName)
end if
end tell
end if
return false -- alsways return false so BBEdit saves normally
end menuselect
hkrems
Though it doesn't do exactly what I've intended it is a great help for
me. Now I can start tinkering by my own ;-)
My idea was to add an additional script named 'Name Backup now' to the
AppleScript Menu. Your source helps me a lot with the basics like
creating the filename (I didn't knew how to use phrases like 'do shell
script...' or 'POSIX path' in an AppleScript)
To be honest - I've written 2 little scripts before (under MacOS9).
Harald
Oliver Boermans
>
> I forced my self to use the new non-modal search, because I figured
> there was some big advantage to it I just wasn't seeing. Think it's
> about time to switch back to the old way. Or is there some advantage
> to the modal search I'm not seeing... I can't think of a single
> benefit to having search non-modal (devs must have liked something
> about it, right?).
I have found the non-modal find very useful for refining those tricky
grep search queries.
Simdude
before the switch to 9.0. Overall, I love the update to 9, but it does
seem to launch slower than 8 did. I don't have 8 around to compare,
but has anyone else noticed this? Not a big deal since once it's
running, it performs well. That is one of the reasons I came back. I
occasionally edit very large files and TextMate would crawl. BBedit
cranked away. I think if BBedit starts to suffer from feature-creep
and slows down, I'll use my second favorite editor, vi.
Maarten Sneep
> Thank you very much for this script.
> Though it doesn't do exactly what I've intended it is a great help for
> me. Now I can start tinkering by my own ;-)
That is the idea…
> My idea was to add an additional script named 'Name Backup now' to the
> AppleScript Menu. Your source helps me a lot with the basics like
> creating the filename (I didn't knew how to use phrases like 'do shell
> script...' or 'POSIX path' in an AppleScript)
Oh, be careful with that axe. Some of the things I do here (like
making a copy of the file through the unix cp command) are because I
don't know how to do them efficiently in AppleScript.
> To be honest - I've written 2 little scripts before (under MacOS9).
Note that my script is called automatically every time you save your
file. Please make sure you read the BBEdit manual on scripting. And
test thoroughly before using on actual files.
Maarten
Thinkingman.com
I hate relearning stuff… for some reason, with Photoshop, I haven't
had to go through any type of learning curve when it comes to new
versions, including the new CS4. However, the jump from 8 to 9 was
different enough in Paradigm and logic in some ways to require that.
I have now become convinced that it's a great investment and am buying
the new version. I would recommend that everyone who's having issues
just take the time to relearn the keyboard commands (although, from a
Cocoa design standpoint, there isn't any reason the keyboard commands
couldn't switch to the old Find commands when the nonmodal dialog is
frontmost...).
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone!
---------
Thinkingman.com New Media
Steve Kalkwarf
>
> I have now become convinced that it's a great investment and am buying
> the new version. I would recommend that everyone who's having issues
> just take the time to relearn the keyboard commands (although, from a
> Cocoa design standpoint, there isn't any reason the keyboard commands
> couldn't switch to the old Find commands when the nonmodal dialog is
> frontmost...).
Not to beat a dead horse, but that's not at all true.
Command-N should create a new document, regardless of whether the Find
window is in front.
Command-W should always close the front window, including the Find
window.
I could go on...
The loss of burned in command keys equivalents is one of the biggest
reasons it took this long to replace the modal dialogs. In fact,
surveying Bare Bones employees, the use of modal vs. modeless is split
about 50:50.
Regardless, I'm glad you're happy with the end result, even if the
growing pains were, um, painful.
Steve