PageUp/PageDown does not work properly in 10.1.1

[Erni Wogernom]

Hi there,

It looks like version 10.1.1 does not have working PageUp/PageDown
functionality, which is kind-of unexpected for such advanced text
editor. Option+up/down just move cursor to top/bottom line (which is
useless btw) instead of jumping up or down one screen while keeping
relative cursor position on screen.

Could you please fix this?

Thanks!

Erni.

[François Schiettecatte]

Erni

Page Up and Page down works for me, what kind of keyboard are you using?

Also pressing Option+up/down more than once will page up and down.

François

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[Erni Wogernom]

Hi François,

Keys them-selfs work fine (I am using fn-Up/Down combinations on
Mac keyboard). But default editor action is to just scroll page up or
down without moving cursor up or down - that would be fine is the was
other combination of keys that will scroll text along with moving
cursor position.

I am guessing Option+Up/Down was intend to be used in that way but
it does not work as expected: instead of jumping one page up/down and
_keeping_ relative screen position of cursor it move cursor to the
very top line or to the very bottom line. But this is a really very
bad move: as user I almost _never_ need my cursor on top line of
screen or on last line of screen - because for editing I need to see
context of editing area and having cursor or top or bottom line
effectively hide half of the context. So if I press say Option+Up (two
times btw because first will just move to top line, and only second
one will scroll text) - I most likely will need to move cursor at
least few lines down before I can edit anything. So in the end I will
have to press at least 5-6 keys just to jump to previous page and
start editing. Please note that 99.9% of other text editors have this
operation bind to just one key press, including Apple standard
TextEdit and Pages (fn+option+up/down will trigger that action). So
from user perspective this functionality is clearly broken in BBEdit.

Thanks,

Erni.


On Mar 26, 8:57 am, François Schiettecatte <fschietteca...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > please email "supp...@barebones.com" rather than posting to the group.

[Bruce Van Allen]

On 2012-03-25, Erni Wogernom wrote:

>It looks like version 10.1.1 does not have working PageUp/PageDown
>functionality,

Those work fine over here, and they do just what Page-Down and
Page-Up do on other Mac programs - move the page view a whole
screen* but NOT the text cursor.

*MS Word doesn't move a whole screen by default, but can be set to.

>which is kind-of unexpected for such advanced text
>editor. Option+up/down just move cursor to top/bottom line (which is
>useless btw) instead of jumping up or down one screen while keeping
>relative cursor position on screen.
>
>Could you please fix this?

I can't. Did you send your complaint to support?

- Bruce

_bruce__van_allen__santa_cruz_ca_

[Erni Wogernom]

> I can't. Did you send your complaint to support?

I did send it, almost 6months ago - no luck so far.

[LuKreme]

On 25 Mar 2012, at 22:45 , Erni Wogernom wrote:
> It looks like version 10.1.1 does not have working PageUp/PageDown
> functionality,

Yes it does. After reading this thread it is clear that what you meant to type was "Page-UP/Down doesn't work like it does in MSWindows, can you change it so that it does what I expect from years of using MS Word on Windows XP" and the answer to that is going to be no, I can pretty much guarantee it.

Page-Up/Down are not supposed to move the cursor, and never have on the Mac since way back when MS Word was a Mac only product.

You are used to one behavior, we are used to another behavior. I won't bother telling you why ours is better (it is, though) but it's not going to change. Fire up Pages, TextEdit, Mail, even MS Word and you will see the same thing (Not positive on MS Word, maybe they changed it, it's been a decade since I used it for more than a few minutes at a time).

It would be possible to write a little snippet of code, bind it to the page-up and page-down keys so that they did move the cursor, but that is left as an exercise for someone who knows bit more about scripting BBEdit than I.

--
Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't
advise you to try to invade

[Erni Wogernom]

It have nothing to do with MSWindows at all, I have not used windows
since ~95 and honestly do not know how things work is that world. As I
mentioned before, I wanted to point out that Option+Up/Down
functionality is now horribly broken. And that functionality is
_standard_ on mac, all Apple products have it: Apple TextEdit, Pages
and XCode etc. - they all have action that allow you to jump one page
up/down while moving the cursor and _keeping_ it relative screen
position. Just open standard TextEdit, load long file and try using
option+PageUp/PageDown (if you using MacBook it will be fn+option+up/
down) and you will know what it mean.

And just to be clear - I am not asking to change keybindings. All i
want to point out that BBEdit behave in non standard (from Mac user
point of view) way and it would be much better is that will be fixed.

Best,

Erni.

[Herbert Schulz]

On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:04 AM, Erni Wogernom wrote:

> It have nothing to do with MSWindows at all, I have not used windows
> since ~95 and honestly do not know how things work is that world. As I
> mentioned before, I wanted to point out that Option+Up/Down
> functionality is now horribly broken. And that functionality is
> _standard_ on mac, all Apple products have it: Apple TextEdit, Pages
> and XCode etc. - they all have action that allow you to jump one page
> up/down while moving the cursor and _keeping_ it relative screen
> position. Just open standard TextEdit, load long file and try using
> option+PageUp/PageDown (if you using MacBook it will be fn+option+up/
> down) and you will know what it mean.
>
> And just to be clear - I am not asking to change keybindings. All i
> want to point out that BBEdit behave in non standard (from Mac user
> point of view) way and it would be much better is that will be fixed.
>
> Best,
>
> Erni.
>

Howdy,

I guess I don't understand. I just tried Opt-UpArrow/DownArrow in TeXEdit and Mail and the cursor just goes up or down one line (i.e., the Opt modifier is ignored) using OS X 10.7. Am I trying the wrong ``shortcuts''?

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

[Herbert Schulz]

Howdy,

Ok, answering my own question... I have the fn key set so the Function (e.g., F1) keys are really the Function keys rather than the silly symbol by default and don't know if that changes the meaning of the Arrow keys too. Then fn-Opt-UpArrow/DownArrow behave as you suggested in TextEdit, etc., while the page scrolls but the cursor doesn't seem to center in BBEdit.

[Watts Martin]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 at 9:06 , Herbert Schulz wrote:

Howdy,

I guess I don't understand. I just tried Opt-UpArrow/DownArrow in TeXEdit and Mail and the cursor just goes up or down one line (i.e., the Opt modifier is ignored) using OS X 10.7. Am I trying the wrong ``shortcuts''?

I believe Erni is talking about Option with PageUp / PageDown, which in standard Cocoa text windows acts as page up / down while moving the cursor along with the paging. In those windows, Option and the up/down arrows move by paragraph.

It's been sufficiently long since I've used MacOS 9 and earlier that I don't remember whether this is a behavioral change that came with OS X and BBEdit is doing things The Original Way or not. But Erni: if you use Option and the up/down arrows in BBEdit, it will page up and down by screens while moving the cursor, which is what you want, I think. It's a different key binding but the behavior is there.

[Fletcher Sandbeck]

On Mar 27, 2012, at 8:04 AM, Erni Wogernom wrote:

> It have nothing to do with MSWindows at all, I have not used windows
> since ~95 and honestly do not know how things work is that world. As I
> mentioned before, I wanted to point out that Option+Up/Down
> functionality is now horribly broken. And that functionality is
> _standard_ on mac, all Apple products have it: Apple TextEdit, Pages
> and XCode etc. - they all have action that allow you to jump one page
> up/down while moving the cursor and _keeping_ it relative screen
> position. Just open standard TextEdit, load long file and try using
> option+PageUp/PageDown (if you using MacBook it will be fn+option+up/
> down) and you will know what it mean.
>
> And just to be clear - I am not asking to change keybindings. All i
> want to point out that BBEdit behave in non standard (from Mac user
> point of view) way and it would be much better is that will be fixed.

Wow, that's obscure.

[fletcher]

[Erni Wogernom]

Hi Watts,

> It's been sufficiently long since I've used MacOS 9 and earlier that I don't remember whether this
> is a behavioral change that came with OS X and BBEdit is doing things The Original Way or not.
> But Erni: if you use Option and the up/down arrows in BBEdit, it will page up and down by screens
> while moving the cursor, which is what you want, I think. It's a different key binding but the behavior is there.

- I don't mind using different key combination - that totally fine,
the problem is that this one does not work exactly right. As I
explained that previously - it does not keep screen position of cursor
and that make it kind of useless.

Best,

Erni.

[Erni Wogernom]

Hi Herbert,

> Ok, answering my own question... I have the fn key set so the Function (e.g., F1) keys are really the
> Function keys rather than the silly symbol by default and don't know if that changes the meaning of
> the Arrow keys too. Then fn-Opt-UpArrow/DownArrow behave as you suggested in TextEdit, etc.,
> while the page scrolls but the cursor doesn't seem to center in BBEdit.

- thats exactly the what I am talking about! fn-Opt-UpArrow/
DownArrow behave almost as expected but does not keep relative screen
position of the cursor, which is really sad because this functionality
is really useful.

Erni.

[François Schiettecatte]

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I have been using BBEdit pretty much since it came out and I don't think it has every behaved like that:

    http://www.barebones.com/company/history.html

I checked MS Word and it does not support that key combination either.

François

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If you have a feature request or would like to report a problem,

please email "sup...@barebones.com" rather than posting to the group.

[Herbert Schulz]

On Mar 27, 2012, at 12:53 PM, François Schiettecatte wrote:

> Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I have been using BBEdit pretty
> much since it came out and I don't think it has every behaved like that:
>
> http://www.barebones.com/company/history.html
>
> I checked MS Word and it does not support that key combination either.
>
> François

Howdy,

I wouldn't ever expect MSW to obey Apple's keyboard behavior since they don't use Apple's Text Framework. I'm pretty sure BBEdit also doesn't use that Framework either.

[Watts Martin]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 at 10:06 , Erni Wogernom wrote:

- I don't mind using different key combination - that totally fine,

the problem is that this one does not work exactly right. As I

explained that previously - it does not keep screen position of cursor

and that make it kind of useless.

Ah! I see the difference you're talking about now, yes. In the case of TextEdit, the cursor might stay on the line that's three-quarters of the way down the screen as you page back and forth; in the case of BBEdit, the cursor would move to the top or the bottom of the screen as you page.

I'm genuinely curious, though, as to why that's an *important* difference in behavior for you. I can't think of a situation where either of those two approaches is significantly worse or better. What is the case you have where it makes a significant difference?

[Erni Wogernom]

> I'm genuinely curious, though, as to why that's an *important* difference in behavior for you.
> I can't think of a situation where either of those two approaches is significantly worse or better.
> What is the case you have where it makes a significant difference?

Here a few cases that might illustrate why I think it is important:

- Right now pressing fn-Opt-UpArrow and then fn-Opt-DownArrow does
not return cursor to the same place (or at least near it). If you
think about it almost all navigation command that change cursor
position have counter part that allow you to get back if you need it.
But current implementation of fn-Opt-UpArrow/DownArrow does not do
that. This is because amount of space it jump is different for first
and second use: when we press it first time we jump less then one page
(some time as little as one line) and second press will jump one page
up or down.

- And another reason is the cursor position on screen which we will
get after using current implementation of fn-Opt-UpArrow/DownArrorw.
Right now we will get top line or bottom line of the screen
respectfully and this is not a good place for cursor to be. Just think
about it: when we editing we almost always want to see context of
editing area - a few lines above and below the cursor. But having
cursor on ether very top or very bottom line effectively hide half of
the context. So to see what is around you have to scroll text a bit
and that an extra action which could be totally be avoided by standard
implementation of this functionality. In other words after using
current implementation of fn-Opt-UpArrow/DownArrow user will *almost
certainly* have to reposition cursor before s/he can start editing.

Erni.

[Charlie Garrison]

Good morning,

On 27/03/12 at 8:04 AM -0700, Erni Wogernom
<seofm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>And just to be clear - I am not asking to change keybindings. All i
>want to point out that BBEdit behave in non standard (from Mac user
>point of view) way and it would be much better is that will be fixed.

I would argue that it differs from *your* point of view. BBEdit
does exactly what it advertises, and what I (as looong time Mac
user) expect from it. But it's best to ignore who's expectations
are correct and instead focus on the problem and how to get
desired results.

While it's not the exact issue you are asking about, the "Jump
Back" & "Jump Forward" commands may work in way that keeps
cursor and scroll position where you want it.

If that's not suitable, how about control-up/down-arrow followed
by "Goto Center Line".

Whether the current behaviour is "correct" seems irrelevant
since many of us think it works as expected, and you don't.
Instead it makes sense to look for a workable solution.

If neither of the above is suitable then maybe you can give a
use-case to show why you need different behaviour. You gave two
use-cases in a later message, but both of those would seem to be
handled with one of the above solutions.

Charlie

--
Ꮚ Charlie Garrison ♊ <garr...@zeta.org.au>

O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
〠 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

[Christopher Stone]

On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:04, Erni Wogernom wrote:
> As I mentioned before, I wanted to point out that Option+Up/Down functionality is now horribly broken. And that functionality is _standard_ on mac, all Apple products have it: Apple TextEdit, Pages and XCode etc. - they all have action that allow you to jump one page up/down while moving the cursor and _keeping_ it relative screen position. Just open standard TextEdit, load long file and try using option+PageUp/PageDown (if you using MacBook it will be fn+option+up/ down) and you will know what it mean.

______________________________________________________________________

Hello Erni,

Fn-Option-Page[Up/Down] on a laptop is different than Option-Page[Up/Down].

Your incendiary language is neither useful or well received.

This list is a users-list not a support-list. If you want to request a feature then contact support - Bare Bones Software <sup...@barebones.com>. That is the only place you can be certain you will be given a fair hearing by the developers.

--
Regards,
Christopher Stone