How Can We Get Better at it?

[Venkatesh N]

... I surely hope so! Not because we're not good. Because, we're awesome! :)

Hi guys,

Fantastic job again putting together and successfully executing another great race.

We have had lots of praise for the races at BBCh and having soaked it all up, we need to take a look at how we can make it even more awesome for the next time.

I got some feedback from a few guys at the race yesterday and I thought I would pass it on here.

1. Last rider, not important?: I know the volunteers on the route took note of who else were there to finish etc. But apparently nobody was there to receive and track the last riders(like taking down their bib numbers for completion etc). One of the young girls from SFS team apparently finished when prize distribution was going on and no one was there to even note down her bib number let alone cheer her. That poor girl was apparently felt quite dejected that it didn't matter one bit that she struggled so much and completed instead of giving up. Manjula Sridhar finished a couple of riders after this girl and might have been the last one to finish up.

2. Verification: Apparently no one verified the age proof for U-18. Some of them took a lot of pains to bring documentation to the venue but it was useless. They also ask how can you be sure that the guy who too the first place on the podium was U-18?

3. Bib# distribution: The guys at the registration desk were swamped and probably ended up giving cat1 bibs for cat2 riders and vise versa. Can we have more than one guy here? Probably one each to handle a category separately?

4. Bib Visibility1: Cat 2 and Cat1 bibs need to have different backgrounds or some other way to be distinguished easily. No one knew who was Cat1 and Cat2 and who their competition were.

5. Bib Visibility2: The riders need to have bib numbers both at front and back. Having it on the bike is not enough. The timing guys should be able to corroborate how difficult it is once the rider goes past.

6. Fool-Proofing: In an out and back route like this how do we ensure that someone did not take short cut if no one is noting the bib numbers at the U-turn point? Doing this will be difficult for the lead bunch but should not be so for others.

7. Sporting Spirit&Appreciation: More than a couple of riders crashed and completed the race despite that. We could have mentioned that and their names during the podium time and let them have a round of applause for their sporting spirit. We have done things like this in the past and it is very good to spread the sporting spirit. How can we ensure we don't miss things like this? 

8. Results and Podium for all categories: We need to ensure that the results of all the categories are announced then and there. Why should they be cheated of their moment in the limelight? More over this doesn't look all that professional. I can be debated why have categories if they are not important. Is it possible to have different guys taking care of timing for different categories? How else can we ensure this?

9. Website/Registration: Could we have drop down for category while registration so that we can have an idea of how many in each category will be there? This way riders will also be having an idea of their competition instead of looking at the whole field.

10. Separate Start for Categories: Can we have different start times(like 5-10min difference or so) for different categories? Will it not make the life of timing crew a lot easier? This will also ensure that the cat2 guys don't get to hang on to the cat1 wheels to win.

So, there it is. I know how difficult it is to get things moving in perfect order. We are already doing a great job at BBCh. But, I'm sure we can take feedback like this and try to improve things further to make BBCh even more awesome!

--
Cheers,
Venky
govenkygo.com

[Vasu]

My personal views inline.

 

Note: I am NOT speaking as a BBCh organiser.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Venkatesh N <hiven...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I surely hope so! Not because we're not good. Because, we're awesome! :)

Hi guys,

Fantastic job again putting together and successfully executing another great race.

We have had lots of praise for the races at BBCh and having soaked it all up, we need to take a look at how we can make it even more awesome for the next time.

I got some feedback from a few guys at the race yesterday and I thought I would pass it on here.

 

Thanks Lord Venky.

1. Last rider, not important?: I know the volunteers on the route took note of who else were there to finish etc. But apparently nobody was there to receive and track the last riders(like taking down their bib numbers for completion etc). One of the young girls from SFS team apparently finished when prize distribution was going on and no one was there to even note down her bib number let alone cheer her. That poor girl was apparently felt quite dejected that it didn't matter one bit that she struggled so much and completed instead of giving up. Manjula Sridhar finished a couple of riders after this girl and might have been the last one to finish up.

 

Last rider is important. However, this does not mean that the timing crew will wait for the last rider. This is because after 90% of the racist junta have crossed the line the timing crew need to find out winners and announce the results to the people handling post race podium activities. My personal solution to this is:

a) in 'fat bike' races - race stops after 1st (or top 3) riders have crossed the line.

b) in 'sexy bike' races - racists are expected to ride at a minimum of 20 kmph (or some number which can be debated) and the clock stops after a certain time - just as in the brevets, where the control closes after a certain time. e.g. for a 20km race the timing crew will stop the clock at the end of 1hr. So, if there is a rider on the route even after that he/she should know that he/she is not going to get a timing any more. Moreover,  there won't be any minimum time limit e.g. if a rider finishes a 20km race in 5 mins, so be it!

2. Verification: Apparently no one verified the age proof for U-18. Some of them took a lot of pains to bring documentation to the venue but it was useless. They also ask how can you be sure that the guy who too the first place on the podium was U-18?

 

There was no time to do this. Ideally all this can be done via email (scan the proof and email to BBCh Admin) and no need to do this on race day morning when there is a time crunch.

3. Bib# distribution: The guys at the registration desk were swamped and probably ended up giving cat1 bibs for cat2 riders and vise versa. Can we have more than one guy here? Probably one each to handle a category separately?

 

I was also thinking along those lines - that we should have a separate desk for each category OR just create a sort of assembly line. The other thought floating around is that bibs will be couriered to teams within BLR. Some discussion is needed here and most importantly registration desk needs to be setup early in the morning => folks need to be on time => those folks should not be running around for various things at the last minute on Sat night => we need more people => we need more volunteers => we are back to the age old problem. Life would be so much nicer if all these racists get their cousins, kids (above say 10th grade or so), other family members to come and help out with these activities. These family folks can wrap up such work and stick around to cheer the racists. But, then this is earth and not Utopia.

4. Bib Visibility1: Cat 2 and Cat1 bibs need to have different backgrounds or some other way to be distinguished easily. No one knew who was Cat1 and Cat2 and who their competition were.

 

This is one issue which needs more thinking. Different colored bibs have works very well in the past. May be we can try the same again.

5. Bib Visibility2: The riders need to have bib numbers both at front and back. Having it on the bike is not enough. The timing guys should be able to corroborate how difficult it is once the rider goes past.

 

This is doable too. Wonder if riders can take the pains to do a part of the job. May be BBCh can announce bib numbers ahead and riders can print one set and put it on their jersey. Else we'll end up scrambling for safety pins in the morning. As such we have a lack of volunteers, we'll end up loading more work on the existing few. Also, IMHO it is inhuman to expect someone to come and setup a registration desk at 5 or 5.30am on race day, particularly because the races are quite far out of the city.

6. Fool-Proofing: In an out and back route like this how do we ensure that someone did not take short cut if no one is noting the bib numbers at the U-turn point? Doing this will be difficult for the lead bunch but should not be so for others.

 

Not so for others. However, if someone does that then he or she will be seen by the other junta sooner or later. We had a complaint that a rider from a BLR team was drafting a car to try and catch up with the peloton. Similarly such incidents will also get reported. Again, IMHO race officials (Santosh/Modi/me/<xyz>) should be on the road too and that was lacking this month. Marshals to block traffic etc are ok.. but race officials should also be on the road.

7. Sporting Spirit&Appreciation: More than a couple of riders crashed and completed the race despite that. We could have mentioned that and their names during the podium time and let them have a round of applause for their sporting spirit. We have done things like this in the past and it is very good to spread the sporting spirit. How can we ensure we don't miss things like this? 

 

a) tough to collate this info on race day and announce during podium

b) I think we could do with a mic and speakers etc.

8. Results and Podium for all categories: We need to ensure that the results of all the categories are announced then and there. Why should they be cheated of their moment in the limelight? More over this doesn't look all that professional. I can be debated why have categories if they are not important. Is it possible to have different guys taking care of timing for different categories? How else can we ensure this?

 

Put in a couple lakhs and get automated timing. This bit will be sorted out.

9. Website/Registration: Could we have drop down for category while registration so that we can have an idea of how many in each category will be there? This way riders will also be having an idea of their competition instead of looking at the whole field.

 

Need a bunch of smart web developers who are willing to do a hack weekend for free pizza (and coke/beer). Start on Sat around 10am and end on Sunday post midnight. All these things can be sorted out in one shot. Developers need to get their own laptop and hi speed internet will be provided. This is the same problem as buying a sexy bike - smart developers are expensive, available developers are too dumb. Some smart developers who are willing to do this for cheap don't have time.

10. Separate Start for Categories: Can we have different start times(like 5-10min difference or so) for different categories? Will it not make the life of timing crew a lot easier? This will also ensure that the cat2 guys don't get to hang on to the cat1 wheels to win.

 

Sure! We can also have races on different days. Just get the manpower and it will all be done :)

So, there it is. I know how difficult it is to get things moving in perfect order. We are already doing a great job at BBCh. But, I'm sure we can take feedback like this and try to improve things further to make BBCh even more awesome!

--
Cheers,
Venky
govenkygo.com

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[Venkatesh N]

As a BBCh organizer or not, your opinions are all very valid as always, Vasu sir.. :)

In my opinion though, the category results point is pretty valid. It gives everyone involved a satisfaction like none other. Let us not pray for 2 lakh donation for automated timing(May be with more sponsors coming in, it might not be that far. But lets not hold our breath as yet. :) ). We need to think up something.

May be the different colored and large clear bibs and bibs at the front and back of the riders itself will go a long way for our timing team to get all the top results in order. We can bother about the rest of the field later. But it would be great if podium is done there on race day for all categories. Otherwise, we could end up defeating the point having them in the first place. Remember, the idea of categories was to encourage more folks outside of those pro teams?(at least that's my understanding) By just showing their podium and neglecting the other categories, isn't the intent defeated?

Also, races become big only if the riders are motivated enough to train for them and participate in them. What is a better motivation than being in the limelight on the race day? That photo on the podium would definitely means much more than results being announced on FB/Website after a week or two.

Just my 2 paisa...

 

--
Cheers,
Venky
govenkygo.com

[modi]

This race certainly did provide a wake up call to many of us

 

1. Race route : the one that was posted online was different than the race day route as we decided to go under the flyover. Got a feedback from Team Trek that this should have been announced.

 

2. Marshal : severe shortage of manpower and at times unlike XC races, this requires people to be stationed 30km away and have no clue where the U-Turn point was. The other idea is to have a couple of people from the team that marks the route to have marshals at important points on the course

 

3. Use of red-flags : the marshals are given red flags to slow down vehicles and not to slow down the peloton. They need to be advised to not wave towards the peloton with the red flag.

 

4. Police support : We achieved what couldn't all these years, i.e partial roadblock. with further support from the cops we can have a super awesome race in future.

 

5. Finish point: On a flat course like the last race with manual timing bunch finish is way out of our hands to time. We were literally looking at each other what to do when the peloton blazed past us at the finish line. Suggestion : Always have the road races finish on a climb. It was the case last year, we need to do this until we have automated timing in place. Its spectacular to watch sprint finishes but its not an happy ending for the timers.

 

6. Registration desk : Need more helping hands, the one Vasu suggested is what am inclined towards and that was what we did as a post race post-mortem. That will reduce half the registration on race day as we have around 6-7 teams.

 

7. Age-proof : Aditya did validate the age proof of the riders, for students he did a thorough check. Again we need people to support the volunteer team.

 

8. Registration: I will add the categories thingy into the application in another couple of weeks

9. Bibs sizes : We are thinking of cloth bibs stuck on the thigh for road races along with stickers on the helmets, but have to see if that really helps our timers.

 

-modi

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Venkatesh N <hiven...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rohan Kini]

Great feedback - keep em coming. 

Its crib mode. Just let everything loose :) 

Dont worry - its not time to substantiate or justify. We just want more suggestions and then try and fix as many as we possibly can.

On the timing front - we tried shit loads! We even spent time/money to build our own. That much time has gone into that segment. 

We tried manual timing, timers, watches, phone, some of the best timers on the planet, people. Our latest best has been a timing team that is being coached by a couple of our veterans! My bet is that this is the simplest bestest solution unless someone is willing to rustle up timing sponsors (about 2 - 6 lakhs per event)

Regards,

ROhan

stay in touch: 

~ www.bumsonthesaddle.com

[Arvind Ganesh]

Missed the race but want to respond to the timing part of the thread.
As I've said before - even RFID timing can miss riders. High speed photography backup is essential.
Have been checking this for a while. My findings - typical high speed cameras used in sport are expensive. These are similar to what you find in IPL slow-mos.
Chennai guys used frame capture on their iPad but I'm not sure that is practical for all races. Still if someone has a recent iPad they can spare, this is worth trying.
IMO, a good hack for this might be to use a GoPro HD hero 3 black edition camera - it has a 120fps mode which should be sufficient. If someone has this camera, let's do some trials with it.

Arvind

[Vasu]

Forgive me if I am mistaken - 

We have about a year for road races, no? 

Up next is a crit in June, TTT in Aug and Nandi in Oct. Only challenge is the primes in a Crit the rest of them are sitters.

V

[Arvind Ganesh]

You're probably right, those all sound like less stressful opportunities to get a solution sorted by the time the next real test comes along :) 

-Arvind

[Venkatesh N]

Guys,

My apologies if my mail came across as criticizing or comparing our timing crew or our organizing in general with some other body. BBCh is the Best. Period. I have absolutely nothing but respect for the kind of thankless job our crew and volunteers do to get the races going. With the kind of numbers that we are dealing with, I know how much of an herculean task it is to deal with everything. I talked to Modi this morning and communicated the same.

My only intention was to list out a few areas we can work on based on what I heard from others in terms of feedback. My intention is not to slight, in anyway what so ever, the awesome work that the team is already doing. I also know that a lot of those points have been gone over a hundred times before and the kind of constraints we need to work with.

As to the post in BBCh FB page by someone pointing out that the results at TCC come out in 15mins, they don't do timing or position for the guys after the first 15-20 positions. As is, their numbers themselves are quite low in terms of participation. I believe we need to work on the finishing order for all since we are doing the points system for the entire season. (May be we can just work on doing finishing order(timing is immaterial if it is not a TT and there is no GC like in a tour) for just top 20-40 and giving equal nominal points for everyone else?)

The first thing we need to take care of, is getting the podiums for every category out of the way at the venue. Different colored bibs and bib numbers with big fonts that can be struck at various places like helmet and the back of the jersey, on the legs etc can help in this area along with having multiple spotters at the finish line. We can use the coming races to experiment with this(mainly the crit). 

Cheers..

--
Cheers,
Venky
govenkygo.com

[Vasu]

Hail the Lord,

Chill!! No apologies necessary. 

V