Tag Trade

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Felix E. Klee

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Mar 28, 2007, 6:30:42 PM3/28/07
to barca...@googlegroups.com
I more or less just found about BarCampBank, and although I haven't yet
fully grasped what it's about, I dare to point you to a project that
I've been working on for some time (please tell me right away whether
I'm off topic):

http://www.tagtrade.org

The site is somewhat outdated: Recent ideas haven't been added, and in
general I didn't get to work much on the project in the past weeks,
maybe even months.

In a nutshell, the idea is to create a totally decentralized market
place, at first mostly for trading services. Some goals (I surely am
missing many aspects as I'm writing this in a hurry):

* Make it easier to post and find tasks for pay, especially in the
OpenSource area. In this case especially small tasks are the target.
There are many things that people are willing to pay for. Also, there
are many things that people are willing to pursue, but only pay
(e.g. if it's too boring).

* Have a system that is not owned by anyone and that's thus uncensorable
and can organically evolve.

* Make Paid Learning a reality: Allow learners to apply newly acquired
knowledge to small to medium sized tasks, and to get some money for
it. To make this work fluently, additional components are needed.

Features:

* There are three parties:

- People who need solutions and who want to pay for solutions.

- Moderators who help work out specs, who merge similar tasks (to pool
pledged money), who split tasks, who judge results, etc..

- People who do the work and get the pay.

* Each part of a trade process is marked up, and - usually - posted in
public, e.g. in fora or on blogs. Examples (somewhat outdated):

http://www.tagtrade.org/Portal/URNXTradeA-0-1?from=Portal.QuickstartGuides

* Peer to peer payment, escrow services, etc. are provided by third
parties (Paypal, etc.).

At the moment - as said above - the TagTrade site is missing recent
ideas. Just one of them: Building a decent "task" Microformat could be
a *start* for marking up content related to a market place for services.

Unfortunately, at the moment, I doubt that I'll be able to spend much
time contributing to TagTrade and to Paid Learning.

- Felix

PS: Concerning peer to peer money, I've something for you:

GG_0.0200_20080329_AAB3ipzYoJyljSHQ+zZpl5bDOMVLpwpL+zWyBaAYa6pL0A_vE8x2IccCZ+M5SPWj+Cj6B3p6AyG9EhT9MPweABhPo8f

:-)

--
Felix E. Klee
Jabber: fek...@jabber.org, SIP: 977...@sipgate.de, Skype: felix.klee

Frederic Baud

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Mar 29, 2007, 3:41:28 AM3/29/07
to BarCampBank
Hi Felix,

Welcome to BarCampBank. BarCampBank is a community of people who want
to promote innovations and new business models in the world of banking
and finance. We have different workgroups which are consituted on an
ad-hoc (and virtual) basis. P2PLending looks at social lending very
well publicized by firms like Prosper or Zopa. P2PLending also as a
branch trying to start similar initiatives in France. P2PVenture is
another workgroup ( http://groups.google.com/group/p2pventure ) that I
animate that seeks to build a P2P project screening and funding
platform. Finally P2PMoney is third workgroup that seeks to create a
solution for the problem of payment pooling and revenue sharing.
P2PMoney can be seen as a tool that we think could be very useful to
us, but also that could be a building block for several other
initiatives. From what I understand from Tag Trade, P2PMoney could
indeed serve as a tool for the payment part of the workflow; other
parts of the workflow - concerning the "tendering" process for example
- would I think be specific to TagTrade.

Hope this makes sense.

Pease, do not hesistate to answer to the 3 Questions that have been
posted as threads on this group.

Cheers,

Frederic

PS:

you'll have to give me more clues for me to use
GG_0.0200_20080329_AAB3ipzYoJyljSHQ+zZpl5bDOMVLpwpL
+zWyBaAYa6pL0A_vE8x2IccC­Z+M5SPWj+Cj6B3p6AyG9EhT9MPweABhPo8f , do I
need a tool, which one?

Sam Rose

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Mar 29, 2007, 1:24:47 PM3/29/07
to BarCampBank
Felix,

Nice to meet you!

You are definitely not offtopic at all, and very welcome to continue
discussing this great idea.

I think that Frederic is right, that you might be interested in
P2PMoney and P2PVenture BarCampBank projects.

Your project might also benefit from some of the ideas emerging at
http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/RevenueSharingModel at Open
Business Models Wiki Hive project we are exploring similar ideas, some
related to ongoing tracking of contributions towards open projects,
through project point systems. (I added your ideas there with
attribution to your site). I think I'll also blog about you, because
the idea is so great! See also HansWobbe's MicroTask ideas there. Very
similar to some of what I am seeing in Tag Trade concepts.

I am personally very, very interested in enabling the development of a
knowledge economy based around open source software, open standards,
and open and decentralized tools, such as what you are exploring with
Tag Trade.


I'm also very, very interested in the idea that you are exploring with
http://www.tagtrade.org/Main/Bootstrapping, it might be possible to
create a project point system of tasks in the tag trade system,
similar to what we've created at
http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/ExtinctionLevelEvent/ProjectPointSystem
which is in actual use right now. We are tracking this manually right
now using wikiCalc, which can then be exported to pay pal mass pay.
This is a payment system for tasks that uses points that are shares of
incoming revenue. But, in the case of Tag Trade, revenue could be the
total amount being offered to complete the task.

A lot of people don't realize it, but this is one of the missing
bridges to individual social media consultants like myself being able
to make a living consulting around Open Source Software. There are
actually quite a few people who would pay one solution provider like
myself to create a set of solutions based around open source software
platforms, but they often need the software functions customized.
Plus, there are many other knowledge worker tasks involved in this
type of consulting that create more work than one person can do at
times. Having a robust marketplace to turn to for temporary
collaborations would be amazing. Versions of theses markets exist
currently, but they exclude a huge amount of people.

The functions that you describe at http://www.tagtrade.org/Portal/URNXTradeA-0-1-seek-SolNeedd
and http://www.tagtrade.org/Portal/URNXTradeA-0-1-prvd-DesrWork are
exactly the type of transactions that P2PMoney is interested in
enabling, in my opinion. It would be great to get some feedback from
you about how you would optimally see a P2PMoney application like we
are describing be incorporated into the Tag Trade processes. The more
feedback we get like this, the more universally useful the application
will potentially be.

I also *love* the idea about building a microformat for tasks.

Thanks,

Sam

> http://www.tagtrade.org/Portal/URNXTradeA-0-1?from=Portal.QuickstartG...


>
> * Peer to peer payment, escrow services, etc. are provided by third
> parties (Paypal, etc.).
>
> At the moment - as said above - the TagTrade site is missing recent
> ideas. Just one of them: Building a decent "task" Microformat could be
> a *start* for marking up content related to a market place for services.
>
> Unfortunately, at the moment, I doubt that I'll be able to spend much
> time contributing to TagTrade and to Paid Learning.
>
> - Felix
>
> PS: Concerning peer to peer money, I've something for you:
>
> GG_0.0200_20080329_AAB3ipzYoJyljSHQ+zZpl5bDOMVLpwpL+zWyBaAYa6pL0A_vE8x2IccCZ+M5SPWj+Cj6B3p6AyG9EhT9MPweABhPo8f
>
> :-)
>
> --
> Felix E. Klee

> Jabber: fek...@jabber.org, SIP: 9779...@sipgate.de, Skype: felix.klee

Sam Rose

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Mar 29, 2007, 2:07:58 PM3/29/07
to BarCampBank
Felix's ideas also got me thinking about the idea that "rel-payment"
might be a route for the revenue sharing end of things in P2PMoney,
and that a "rel-pledge" microformat might be a way to create pledges,
in some way, that an open source expense tracking and billing/payment
application could use as data for pledges and payments. This could
possibly allow people to create this data right in a forum, wiki, or
cms system, and then have the appliction collect it and use it. Just
an idea at this point.

Felix E. Klee

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Apr 1, 2007, 2:04:34 PM4/1/07
to barca...@googlegroups.com
At Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:07:58 -0000,

Sounds interesting. I should probably look into it. The idea that data
may be spread all over the web and the harvested is central to TagTrade.
Indeed, I assume that distributed data storage is a very sane thing to
do, and I hope that there will be more and more standards and
applications that allow easy harvesting and use of such data (keyword,
of course: Semantic Web).

Felix E. Klee

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Apr 1, 2007, 2:09:19 PM4/1/07
to barca...@googlegroups.com
At Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:24:47 -0000,

Sam Rose wrote:
> You are definitely not offtopic at all, and very welcome to continue
> discussing this great idea.
>
> [...]

Thanks for the feedback!

Didn't get around to looking at it in depth, but I hope do so later this
evening.

> I also *love* the idea about building a microformat for tasks.

I could imagine that you - as me - see different applications aside from
those related to trading services. For example, one could nicely use
such a format to mark up and keep track of decentralized to do items,
something that may facilitate my day to day work considerably.

--
Felix E. Klee
Jabber: fek...@jabber.org, SIP: 977...@sipgate.de, Skype: felix.klee

Felix E. Klee

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Apr 1, 2007, 2:11:38 PM4/1/07
to barca...@googlegroups.com
At Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:41:28 -0700,

Frederic Baud wrote:
> Welcome to BarCampBank. BarCampBank is a community of people who want
> to promote innovations and new business models in the world of banking
> and finance. We have different workgroups which are consituted on an
> ad-hoc (and virtual) basis. P2PLending looks at social lending very
> well publicized by firms like Prosper or Zopa. P2PLending also as a
> branch trying to start similar initiatives in France. P2PVenture is
> another workgroup ( http://groups.google.com/group/p2pventure ) that I
> animate that seeks to build a P2P project screening and funding
> platform. Finally P2PMoney is third workgroup that seeks to create a
> solution for the problem of payment pooling and revenue sharing.
> P2PMoney can be seen as a tool that we think could be very useful to
> us, but also that could be a building block for several other
> initiatives. From what I understand from Tag Trade, P2PMoney could
> indeed serve as a tool for the payment part of the workflow; other
> parts of the workflow - concerning the "tendering" process for example
> - would I think be specific to TagTrade.

Thanks for the introduction!

> Pease, do not hesistate to answer to the 3 Questions that have been
> posted as threads on this group.

Haven't looked at them yet as I access the group by email.

> you'll have to give me more clues for me to use
> GG_0.0200_20080329_AAB3ipzYoJyljSHQ+zZpl5bDOMVLpwpL
> +zWyBaAYa6pL0A_vE8x2IccC­Z+M5SPWj+Cj6B3p6AyG9EhT9MPweABhPo8f

Will do so in a second thread, in a moment.

Felix E. Klee

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Apr 2, 2007, 4:54:07 PM4/2/07
to barca...@googlegroups.com
At Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:24:47 -0000,
Sam Rose wrote:
> A lot of people don't realize it, but this is one of the missing
> bridges to individual social media consultants like myself being able
> to make a living consulting around Open Source Software. There are
> actually quite a few people who would pay one solution provider like
> myself to create a set of solutions based around open source software
> platforms, but they often need the software functions customized.

I absolutely agree.

> Having a robust marketplace to turn to for temporary collaborations
> would be amazing. Versions of theses markets exist currently, but they
> exclude a huge amount of people.

To my knowledge, most of these market places aren't really open. A
market place that's distributed and that's just based on some loose
standards like Microformats has the potential of gaining a high
acceptance in the Open Source world. People are always suspicious of
monopolies such as eBay (an extreme example, of course).

Providing a decentralized eBay could also be an interesting task, and
would probably draw much more attention. In fact I could imagine that
people are working on something like this. Personally, though, I'm not
too interested in trading material goods.

> It would be great to get some feedback from you about how you would
> optimally see a P2PMoney application like we are describing be
> incorporated into the Tag Trade processes. The more feedback we get
> like this, the more universally useful the application will
> potentially be.

Definitely interesting. With BarCampBank you're touching many of the
issues that TagTrade is also touching. What I'd really love to do is
get something going, on way or the other. As said before, it's
important to seed an open system that can then evolve organically /
evolutionary. And: It's very important that such a system is very easy
to use. Integration into existing forum software or bug databases could
be a start.

BTW, eCache - which mentioned earlier - should allow some interesting
experiments, with Escrow services etc..

--
Felix E. Klee
Jabber: fek...@jabber.org, SIP: 977...@sipgate.de, Skype: felix.klee

Sam Rose

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Apr 8, 2007, 12:26:45 PM4/8/07
to BarCampBank
Right now I am building a page at http://microformats.org/wiki for
pledge examples online. I think it would also be ineresting to build a
page for "task" examples, and possibly "expense" examples.

I'll update this thread when the pledge examples page is complete.

I already have examples of tasks and expenses, but it would be neat to
see some more examples in the wild. Not that it is 100% necassary to
develop this fully within the microformats community,but it would be
optimal to do so, in my opinion, because it could increase uptake and
versatility.

> Jabber: fek...@jabber.org, SIP: 9779...@sipgate.de, Skype: felix.klee

Felix E. Klee

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Apr 8, 2007, 2:20:22 PM4/8/07
to barca...@googlegroups.com
At Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:26:45 -0000,

Sam Rose wrote:
> Right now I am building a page at http://microformats.org/wiki for
> pledge examples online. I think it would also be ineresting to build a
> page for "task" examples, and possibly "expense" examples.

Great! I plan to look into this more after Easter holiday.

Is there a URL for the page?

--
Felix E. Klee
Jabber: fek...@jabber.org, SIP: 977...@sipgate.de, Skype: felix.klee

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