Re: BarCampFing?
Sam Rose
Shutting out based on criteria like this is exactly the reason why
BarCamp was launched in the first place, as far as I understand: to
help foster and increase the diversity of independent ideas, and to
open up participation. You are right, P2PVenture appears to be a vital
area of exploration for a group like Fing. Too bad they fail to see
that.
Not to create a publicity/workshop for any one organization. :-(
http://barcamp.org/BarCampFing
I am forwarding this to the barcamp google group, for whatever that is
worth. Not that i see much that anyone can do about it, really. But I
think people in the BarCamp movement should be aware when their name
is co-opted and used in this way.
Sam
On Aug 20, 4:45 pm, "Frederic Baud" <fredericb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Sam,
>
> Fing is an organization here in France (FING = Fondation Internet Nouvelle
> Generation = New Generation Internet Fundation). It is quite active and
> organizes interesting events.
>
> My belief is that people in charge of organizing this particular BarCampFing
> have never participated to previous barcamps and are not familiar with the
> format. I think there is a misunderstanding between the format (which can
> perfectly be applied internally by Fing) and the open aspect of BarCamps.
>
> So mention to P2PVenture's presentation was discarded because it is not a
> Fing's initiative. And people were reminded that "rule of the game" is to
> speak exclusively of Fing's project.
>
> I think this is clumsy and quite a pitty because some of what Fing is doing
> is very close in particular to P2PVenture's interests.
>
> I think organizers should decide if they want to organize "their" event in
> open space format, or if they want to host a BarCamp and propose some of
> their reflections to the outside community, while being receptive to what
> others would like to discuss.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frederic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Rose" <samuel.r...@gmail.com>
> To: "P2P Venture" <p2pve...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:06 PM
> Subject: BarCampFing?
>
> > So, what is the story with BarCampFing? Why are they cancelling your
> > presentation there, Frederic, and citing "rules of the game"?
>
> >http://barcamp.org/BarCampFing
Chris Messina
information -- as does the rest of the community.
It's bringing issues like this to light -- and making transparent the
process of other *camp organizing tactics -- that maintain the
strength and applicability of the community mark concept to BarCamp.
And serve as the model and example to how, even over time and
distance, we can work to maintain the integrity of the original spirit
of BarCamp.
If indeed someone was prevented from presenting at an event due to the
content of their presentation, we should learn more about this
incident, what precipitated it and what can be done at this point. As
Sam pointed out, BarCamp is about inclusivity, education and openness.
It is about embracing alternative perspectives and views and giving
them a forum to make their case. If this event is about a
single-minded presentation of a given topic, that sounds very
different from what one should expect attending an event that bears
the name "BarCamp".
Are the organizers of BarCampFing on this list? Does anyone have
contact information for them? I'm happy to discuss this matter with
them directly and make no assumptions about what may or may not have
happened. Instead, the broader issue of content censorship or
exclusion at a BarCamp is something that should concern all BarCamp
attendees and organizers and should not be taken lightly.
Waiting to hear more -- thanks for bringing this issue to light.
Chris
--
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
Open Source Advocate-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private
Samuel Rose
him on this email).
He talks in detail about it here:
http://groups.google.com/group/p2pventure/browse_thread/thread/e4428d4bb9d928b7
and on the page http://barcamp.org/BarCampFing (although it is in
French)
it's possible that Frederic will likely work it out with these folks
on his own, and I am sure the folks from Fing mean well, and I am sure
they are good folks, and likely just misguided about the nature and
nurture of BarCamp. But, it is a shame to apparently see them miss a
key ingredient in organizing BarCamp. I think some local French
BarCamp enthusiasts are likely to communicate with the BarCampFing
organizers about these issues, hopefully.
Sam Rose
http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
Chris Messina
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Louis Montagne <lmon...@bearstech.com>
Date: Aug 21, 2007 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: [BarCamp] Re: BarCampFing?
Hey Chris, Hey BarCampGroup!
what people (at least here in France) love from BarCamps is what
one cannot steal from BarCamps: the free talks, the free minds, and
overall, the ability to think on a subject witth real freshness and
no boundaries.
This seems to be so good that many organisations want to use it, and
using it that way, they kill the spirit...
In the past, we also had some discussions with Frederic, Sam,
Chistophe from the Bank branch. We didn't want that BarCamp became a
BarCampBank only event, so we took care to have people from different
groups and communities.
Now, the BarCamp community is quite mature in Paris (and Alsace, and
Nantes, and Rennes and Lyon !! )
If the Fing doesn't have enough space to welcome the p2pVenture,
probably we can get a bigger space to meet. They'll have their talk
in a broader BarCamp.
Would this solve the problem Chris ? Sam ?
Best.
Louis
Le 21 août 07 à 08:35, Chris Messina a écrit :
Frederic Baud
I'm kind of mixed on this issue, because I really respect what Fing is
doing here in France, but I'm kind of concerned by the way this is
handled. My main guess is that this BarCampFing is organized by people
within Fing who have never participated to a BarCamp before and who
miss the context when trying to enforce "rules of the game" (talking
about Fing's future projects) that are not consistent in my sense with
the dynamics of a BarCamp.
To give more details about the exact issue, BarCampFing is scheduled
for 28 september 2007 in Paris. Since this is a BarCamp and I respect
the work of Fing, I thought this would create a nice landmark to sign-
off papers and create officially P2PVenture.org ( http://www.p2pventure.org
) during this event - P2PVenture.org is a non-profit organization spun-
off from BarCampBank to help the creation of P2P platforms for the
selection, development and financing of startups projects.
While I've not been officially baned to do so, I've been indirectly
reminded that everyone should follow the "rules of the game" (talking
about Fing's projects again).
On a personal side, I don't want to make any fuss about it, but I
won't probably participate to this BarCampFing if things stay on this
course. I'm still slightly concerned by the fact that the dynamics of
BarCamps may be eroded in the process. While everyone would have
jumped on their feet with the announcement of a BarCampMicrosoft, the
fact that Fing is a fine organization may let us unknowingly cross
certain limits. The fact that the form was expressed with possibly
inappropriate reminders, may ask ourselves in fact an important
question about content: Can a BarCamp be organized with a central
theme focused on a single organization - be it an estimable
organization like Fing?
So I'd rather see things staying on a low tone, but these could be
important questions to think about.
Cheers,
Frederic
http://www.barcampbank.com
Frederic Baud
I'm copying below an earlier answer I made on Sam's mail above,
because it does not seem to have gone through.
To make it for the impatient reader, the main question I raise is:
Can a BarCamp be organized with a central theme focused on a single
organization?
Cheers,
Frederic
PS: But I believe on the contrary that having some BarCamps focused on
specific themes (like Drupal, MobileDev or Bank & Financel) can prove
to be intense moments with some value-adding focus.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Messina
yes, BarCamps can be organized around specific or central themes
and/or for or with a specific organization.
HOWEVER, it is best to follow the convention used to date to identify
both the topic and the flavor of the event -- to clarify to
prospective participants what the event will be about.
Now that I have more information about the BarCampFING concept and
plan, I would strongly recommend that the organizers reconsider the
name they have chosen as being contradictory to their goals -- and
that in fact, using the name may cause confusion that will minimize
the effectiveness of the event.
Therefore, I recommend, again based on previous experience, to
consider renaming the event to something like FINGCamp, which will
more clearly establish that this event is focused on topics both
related to and purposed towards the FING organization and will also
help to clarify for potential attendees what to expect of the event
and of their own ability to present topics of their own choosing.
BarCamp has traditionally and specifically been about diversity,
openness and a meandering opportunity to allow for the content to
unfold on its own and to not be predicated on any prior controls.
Other camp derivatives (TransitCamp, DemoCamp, etc) have taken name
that both clearly delineate them from the complete ad hoc nature of
BarCamps and as well have indicated their likely topical content.
Personally, I can not and will not ban anyone from necessarily using
the BarCamp name -- but instead encourage those who do to consider the
message and expectations that using the name will convey. There are
ways to more accurately and clearly communicate the promise of your
event that have been used with great success in the past, and I would
again encourage you to consider a name more appropriate to your ends
and desires and that the BarCamp community will happily support than
to try to impose any kind of structure upon what people have come to
expect as a conference for, and dictated by, the
participant-attendees.
Does that make sense? Let me know if you have any questions or
concerns -- and I invite others from the community to express their
thoughts and opinions on this as well.
Chris
Christopher St John
>
> Therefore, I recommend, again based on previous experience, to
> consider renaming the event to something like FINGCamp, which will
> more clearly establish that this event is focused on topics both
> related to and purposed towards the FING organization and will also
> help to clarify for potential attendees what to expect of the event
> and of their own ability to present topics of their own choosing.
>
Changing the name to more closely match the intent seems like
a very reasonable thing to do.
-cks
--
Christopher St. John
http://artofsystems.blogspot.com
Stéphane Distinguin
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Daniel Kaplan [mailto:dka...@fing.org]
> Envoyé : mardi 21 août 2007 20:23
> À : 'Stéphane Distinguin'; 'AGUITON Christophe RD-TECH-ISS';
> 'Chris Messina'; bar...@googlegroups.com
> Cc : 'Louis Montagne, Bearstech'; 'Renaud Francou'; 'Hubert Guillaud'
> Objet : RE: [BarCamp] Re: BarCampFing?
>
> Thanks Stephane for putting me in the loop.
>
> I haven't personally worked very much on organizing this
> event, but I'll look into it first thing. I forwarded this
> thread to Hubert and Renaud who are putting it together for FING.
>
> We have contributed to several BarCamps in Paris already. We
> clearly do not want to highjack the BarCamp name for
> something in which the community wouldn't recognize itself.
>
> When I discussed this meeting with the team a few weeks ago, we had 2
> possibilities:
>
> 1- Organize a series of open discussion focused only on the
> topics that we chose or found relevant to our mission, and
> **not** call it a BarCamp;
>
> 2- Call it a BarCamp and agree to loose control, although we
> would (among
> others) suggest topics and propose sessions.
>
> Having read our page after your messages, I guess we're in
> the middle...
> Which is not the right place to be.
>
> And I agree (and will check into that), if it is a BarCamp,
> we have no grounds to refuse P2PVentures or any other
> proposed session.
>
> So please, put that on disorganized French summers and give
> us a few hours, we will work this out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Daniel Kaplan
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Stéphane Distinguin [mailto:stephane....@fabernovel.com]
> Envoyé : mardi 21 août 2007 19:22
> À : 'AGUITON Christophe RD-TECH-ISS'; 'Chris Messina';
> bar...@googlegroups.com Cc : 'Louis Montagne, Bearstech';
> 'Daniel Kaplan'; 'Renaud Francou'; 'Thierry Marcou';
> 'veronique routin'
> Objet : RE: [BarCamp] Re: BarCampFing?
>
> Hi all,
>
> At Silicon Sentier, we were supposed to help this next BarCampParis.
> For many reasons, the main one being the lack of time, I
> guess our friends at FING wanted to organize things on their
> side and we haven't been in the loop since a few phone calls in July.
>
> As for other BarCamps or unconferences, I guess it is not the
> first time a and due to its non for profit status, you should
> consider it as a "WineCamp"
> rather than as a company dedicated "BarCamp" and accordingly
> regard as not that unnormal their will to focus on non for
> profit / local authorities related topics.
>
> We'll be happy to help at this next BarCampParis and I am
> very sure Daniel and his team have the will to contribute in
> the best "état d'esprit" / mindset as always for all their events.
>
> Our friends at FING are now in the loop and in this mailing list...
>
> AmitiéS/.
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : AGUITON Christophe RD-TECH-ISS
> > [mailto:christoph...@orange-ftgroup.com]
> > Envoyé : mardi 21 août 2007 12:32
> > À : Chris Messina; bar...@googlegroups.com Cc : Stéphane
> Distinguin,
> > faberNovel; Louis Montagne, Bearstech Objet : RE: [BarCamp] Re:
> > BarCampFing?
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I don't think someone from the FING is membre of this
> Googlegroup, I
> > didn't know about this initiative, but I have very good
> relations with
> > the FING Team (as Louis and
> > Stephane) and it's easy to open a discussion on this issue
> with them.
> >
> > Even if it's the first time I see a Barcamp dedicated to a specific
> > organisation, we have to take in count 2 things:
> > - the FING is not non-profit organisation, with a very good
> reputation
> > in all the IT sector in France,
> > - the presentation of the "BarcampFing" respects the rules
> of all the
> > Barcamp, anyone can present a topic...
> >
> > It's a little bit as if, in the US, the EFF or the FSF was
> organising
> > a Barcamp to discuss what should be the EFF or the FSF you
> wanted to
> > have for the future...
> >
> > But perhaps Louis and Stephane have an other opinion.
> >
> > Christophe
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Chris Messina [mailto:chris....@gmail.com] Envoyé :
> > mardi 21 août 2007 08:35 À : bar...@googlegroups.com Cc :
> > Stéphane Distinguin, faberNovel; Louis Montagne, Bearstech; AGUITON
> > Christophe RD-TECH-ISS Objet : Re: [BarCamp] Re: BarCampFing?
Evan Prodromou
> BarCamp has traditionally and specifically been about diversity,
> openness and a meandering opportunity to allow for the content to
> unfold on its own and to not be predicated on any prior controls.
I wanted to throw out some ideas based on my own experience. When I'm
not starting Web sites or goofing off at BarCamps, I'm active as
Montreal regional representative for Burning Man:
Burning Man is a DIY arts festival that's held on Labor Day Weekend in
the desert of Nevada. It's an integral part of the Bay Area's art and
technology scene, and many of its key values (e.g. "No spectators")
have
been borrowed here and there by BarCamps and BarCampers.
As the Burning Man brand grew in the late 90s, the organization built
a
formal "regional representative" network, so that regional events in
places far from San Francisco could use the Burning Man name ethically
and fairly.
Regional representatives have to agree to the responsibilities that go
with that job:
http://regionals.burningman.com/network_letter.html
In particular, they have to agree to uphold the principles of the
Burning Man project:
http://regionals.burningman.com/network_principles.html
"Official" Burning Man regional events must meet certain criteria:
they
must be multi-media, they must be well insured, at a legal venue, etc.
etc.
There are other "community franchises" that have similar requirements
--
some have much more strict requirements for regional groups, others
are
much more loose.
In the BarCamp community, we haven't used this kind of formal
relationship, and that's probably been one of the factors in BarCamp's
stupendous growth. However, I wonder if there may be some value in
elaborating some guidelines about using BarCamp and *Camp, and what we
in the worldwide community expect from events that use these names.
For example,
* A list of BarCamp "core values" or "core principles". What
does
BarCamp mean and what are we trying to do?
* A list of encouraged and discouraged behaviours by
participants
and organizers.
* A more explicit set of "naming conventions" for BarCamps and
*Camps.
If these were more explicitly stated, then it would be easier for new
organizers and participants to understand what they're expected to do.
And, if they want to, they can break those expectations consciously
and
carefully, rather than out of ignorance.
-Evan
P.S. I think there are a few documents on the BarCamp wiki that could
fill
the roles of the above-listed guidelines, if they were updated and
made
more specific.
Samuel Rose
sincelrely apologize if I came across as accusing or inflaming. These
kinds of issues can be touchy, and I think the best thing to do is to
open channels of communication, and that is why I forwarded this here
(and also to bring to light some fo the meta-issues with the increase
in popularity of the "BarCamp" name, and increase of "unConference"
get togethers) . I'm sure that if BarCampFing organizers can
communicate directly with Frederic Baud, any and all issues will
resolve themselves.
Sam Rose
On Aug 21, 2:39 pm, Stéphane Distinguin
<stephane.disting...@fabernovel.com> wrote:
> To follow up...
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Daniel Kaplan [mailto:dkap...@fing.org]
> > De : Stéphane Distinguin [mailto:stephane.disting...@fabernovel.com]
> > Envoyé : mardi 21 août 2007 19:22
> > À : 'AGUITON Christophe RD-TECH-ISS'; 'Chris Messina';
> > bar...@googlegroups.com Cc : 'Louis Montagne, Bearstech';
> > 'Daniel Kaplan'; 'Renaud Francou'; 'Thierry Marcou';
> > 'veronique routin'
> > Objet : RE: [BarCamp] Re: BarCampFing?
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > At Silicon Sentier, we were supposed to help this next BarCampParis.
> > For many reasons, the main one being the lack of time, I
> > guess our friends at FING wanted to organize things on their
> > side and we haven't been in the loop since a few phone calls in July.
>
> > As for other BarCamps or unconferences, I guess it is not the
> > first time a and due to its non for profit status, you should
> > consider it as a "WineCamp"
> > rather than as a company dedicated "BarCamp" and accordingly
> > regard as not that unnormal their will to focus on non for
> > profit / local authorities related topics.
>
> > We'll be happy to help at this next BarCampParis and I am
> > very sure Daniel and his team have the will to contribute in
> > the best "état d'esprit" / mindset as always for all their events.
>
> > Our friends at FING are now in the loop and in this mailing list...
>
> > AmitiéS/.
>
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : AGUITON Christophe RD-TECH-ISS
> > > [mailto:christophe.agui...@orange-ftgroup.com]
> > > De : Chris Messina [mailto:chris.mess...@gmail.com] Envoyé :
Eric Skiff
In the PodCamp community, we've also been wrestling with this same issue of name usage and how to ensure that the basic core ideas stay central to the event and that the name can't be co -opted by someone from outside the community.
The founders of podcamp have set up a foundation to protect the name and provide support for new podcamps.
Personally, I'm more in favor of Chris' "community mark" idea than of the formal trademark and contract setup that podcamp is attempting, but I figured I'd call a little attention to it since there are sure to be lessons learned from both approaches, and it's possible the podcamp folks might have a bit more leverage were someone to really misuse the name.
I'm one of the co-organizers of PodCampNYC and friend with both the founders of podcamp so I'm happy to pass questions / intros if anyone would like.
-Eric Skiff
http://GlitchNYC.com
Podcast : http://AlternativeMusicShow.com
Learn Stuff: http://clipiversity.com
Frederic Baud
OK, we have a kind of linguistic problem here. French is different
from English and we do not put names in the same order. It makes sense
in French to say BarCampFing to express just what you said Chris
(option 1 from Daniel, but not using BarCamp), but this is creating
confusion on a "BarCamp" event (option 2 from Daniel). Because of
that, we are indeed sitting today in the middle. Fing people have to
decide for themselves what kind of event they want to host, but I
believe we can not have reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcamp
and the current rules expressed on http://barcamp.org/BarCampFing on
the same page.
I'm personally very comfortable with either solutions. Plus we'll have
to find a naming convention that is working for French (and some other
european languages).
Cheers,
Frederic
xtof
On 21 août, 21:15, Frederic Baud <fredericb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> OK, we have a kind of linguistic problem here. French is different
> from English and we do not put names in the same order. It makes sense
> in French to say BarCampFing to express just what you said Chris
> (option 1 from Daniel, but not using BarCamp), but this is creating
> confusion on a "BarCamp" event (option 2 from Daniel). Because of
> that, we are indeed sitting today in the middle. Fing people have to
> decide for themselves what kind of event they want to host, but I
> believe we can not have reference tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcamp
> and the current rules expressed onhttp://barcamp.org/BarCampFingon
> the same page.
>
> I'm personally very comfortable with either solutions. Plus we'll have
> to find a naming convention that is working for French (and some other
> european languages).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frederic
Hi all and thanks for this conversation. Just moved FingCamp according
to Frederic's suggestion I find cool. One more time how about
discussing a definitive good NamingConvention for french barcamps ?
Cheers, Christophe Ducamp