DÉ·JÀ VU,

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clive walford

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Oct 5, 2022, 11:35:23 AM10/5/22
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A SERIOUS NEED TO STOP AND THINK
Just over 10 years ago some pensioners in Indonesia agreed to join the campaign against the gov’ts Frozen Pension policy. Being novices we asked the big boys, ICBP if we could join them in campaigning. The ICBPs campaign being against the discrimination that policy introduced.

 The ICBP reply was ; “NO you can’t, your only a few in number and you don’t contribute”.

So we were discriminated against because of our size, by the group campaigning against discrimination. The courts had declared cost was not an acceptable excuse for discrimination. So if we did not pay we could not join. (incidentally we had already started joining BPiA by the time we got the ICBP reply).

Now we were not concerned about paying a fee as obviously legal costs were likely to be involved at some point. However, as it turned out, our concern over not being a group in its own rights, was very justified. Appointed as BPiA representative in Indonesia during 8 or 9 years as the rep WE WERE NEVER ONCE ASKED FOR INFORMATION OR VIEWS/COMMENTS AS BPIA MEMBERS IN INDONESIA BY THE BPIA CHAIR OR COMMITTEE.

We received an email from the BPiA chair that advised u that he could not be bothered answering our questions as he was far too busy with HIS OWN MEMBERS IN AUSTRALIA. That did quite understandably concern us.

(there are other incidents with the ICBP and groups but they would distract from the comments to follow).

            TODAY,( not 10 years ago), the BPiA chairmans email says: “BPIA IS BIGGER THAN BAPA so they,(BAPA) should join BPiA and ITS contemplation of legal  action. The web site says “BPa’s mission is ”Fair Play for British Pension in Australia”. At least BAPA members in Australia wont go unanswered. Will BAPA members not living in Australia be answered? BAPA was the first organised campaigning group. It was broken up by school boy argument to whether they should have an annual fee or just a joining fee. In the meanwhile the 200,000 FP had to sit back and twiddle their thumbs waiting to be remembered. Further on in time a combined group of campaigners split up over the bigger two groups demanding a bigger share of votes. Further on in time again the members of the ICBP board split up over the ICBP chair accepted the gov’t suggestion of partial  uprating going forwards as a step towards parity. The members were not consulted what so ever on that boards, (part of), decision.

For 76 years the FP policy or its MO has not changed. For 25+ years none of the campaigning groups have forced any changes in that policy!

    DÉ·JÀ VU,    ? yes I would say so.  Why why why??? One enemy! The gov’t. how many squads instead of one army. Too many chiefs but few voices of the soldiers. Too much dictatorship from the big brass.
A month or so ago the ICBP told us how successful their zoom meetings with the govt had been. (they still did not get any change to the policy) Today BPiA chair tells us the meetings in London will restart.

If the meetings in London have not achieved any action on the policy why, when we are told of the so good zoom meetings, is more money going to be wasted on fruitless trips to London rather than setting up a fund   for legal cost donated by the various groups into one army’s fund? The ICBP board construction needs a big change. The knowledgeable and action type people need to be up on the front line.

The FP is just one of the many issues within the SP farce. One army needs to be the weapon to win the protection, security and survival of the  DLG assured pension for all.

Paul Swain

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Oct 5, 2022, 11:44:16 AM10/5/22
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Hi Everyone!

I've just approved a post from Clive Walford.  As Clive's post makes a lot of comments about BPiA and the ICBP, I thought that it was important to give BPiA a chance to respond, and that is why it has taken a few days to approve the post. 

If you haven't seen Clive's post, it is probably in your inbox dated 1 October 2022, or you can read it at https://groups.google.com/g/bapanews/c/QcXoB2Ibgz8/m/9RP6Rn_NBwAJ

This is what Patrick Edwards, the current President of BPiA, has asked me to post in response on his behalf:

I am President of BPiA and have been President for the past two years. I have been a member of the ICBP board whilst President of BPiA.

I am not aware of Mr. Walford’s past experience as a member of BPiA. I apologise if it has been less than satisfactory. As President of BPiA, I always provide prompt answers to all questions raised by BPiA members.

Whilst the bulk of BPiA members live in Australia, we have members in Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada and the UK. I believe they are – and continue to be – members because BPiA is doing a good job fighting to end the UK’s frozen pensions policy. It is true our campaign has been going for over twenty years without a change in that policy but does not mean we should give up. It means we should redouble our efforts and find new and innovative ways to further our campaign.

I support BAPA’s continued presence as a separate body. I believe there is room for more than one entity fighting to end the frozen pension’s policy and welcome a diversity of opinions in furtherance of that campaign. As an example of BPiA’s support of BAPA, we assisted Paul in his recent Freedom of Information request.

BPiA members receive access to the members only section of the BPiA website including access to Fact Sheets relating to UK state pension and national insurance. They can obtain guidance on how to maximise their pension entitlement. BPiA members with email addresses receive a monthly newsletter providing timely information on our efforts on their behalf. All BPiA members receive a quarterly magazine “Fair Play”, which also contains information on our campaign and interesting articles on a variety of topics. For example, recent editions included articles comparing state pension schemes around the world, the history of national insurance, enduring powers of attorney, living in Thailand on a frozen pension and the Chanak Affair. We have included articles on medical conditions that affect older people such as diabetes and stroke.

BPiA is active in pursing the campaign to end frozen pensions both directly and through its participation in ICBP. For example, in the past three months, we have achieved over twenty mentions in the national press in the UK and one session on BBC TV news. We provide secretarial support to the APPG on frozen pensions. The APPG on frozen pensions continues to grow with new MPs joining each month. Our members have delivered publications and letters in person to 10 Downing Street. We recently made a written submission to the JSCOT review of the Australia – UK Free Trade Agreement. We have written to every MP in the UK explaining the frozen pension issue to them. Following the recent federal election in Australia we sent an information pack to every new and returning member of the House of Representatives and every Senator in Australia. We obtained a statement from the Minister for Social Services that the frozen pensions policy is costing the Australian taxpayer $110 million a year. We made a Freedom of Information request that revealed that the Morrison government never made representations on behalf of recipients of frozen pensions in Australia.

I do not know why Mr. Walford says that TODAY, he has received an email from the BPiA Chairman. BPiA has not had a Chairman since I took over two years ago as I have adopted the title “President” to be consistent with the New South Wales legislation under which BPiA is incorporated. In any case, I have never written to Mr. Walford.

Zoom is a very useful tool for people separated by distance enabling them to meet more effectively than just using the telephone and far cheaper than physical meetings. Whilst Zoom is always a second best to physical meetings, we will continue to use it for our regular meetings. ICBP representatives plan to meet in London in November. We have meetings and planned activities scheduled in London that will gain publicity for our campaign and will bring further pressure on the UK government to change its frozen pension policy. Further details will be announced when appropriate.

If Mr. Walford and any other BAPA members have practical suggestions for obtaining a change in the UK government’s frozen pensions policy, I’d be glad to hear them. In the meanwhile, we’d love to have you as members of BPiA.

Regards,


Please let us know what you think by posting here.  Hopefully we can get some good ideas out of this.

BPiA's web site is https://bpia.org.au/ and you can contact Patrick via https://bpia.org.au/about-bpia/contact-us/

The ICBP's web site is https://pensionsjustice.org/


Paul

David Taylor

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Oct 9, 2022, 4:40:47 AM10/9/22
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Could someone kindly update me with requirements to have the pension uprated while in the UK?

 

Minimum duration of stay?

Does the DPW need to be notifying before stay commences or on entry?

Do they accept email/phone/letter notifications?

Proof of visit ie copies of boarding passes/itinerary?

 

The answers to these questions were not discovered on their website.

 

Many thanks

David

 

 

cancan1

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Oct 9, 2022, 5:33:10 AM10/9/22
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I phoned them when I got there and quoted my National Insurance number I upgraded me for the two months that I was in the UK



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Steve Symmons

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Oct 9, 2022, 5:34:14 AM10/9/22
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Just been through the experience:
Telephone or conventional postal letter only.
Preferably in 28 prior to arrival 
However 
Acceptable within 28 days of arrival 
DWP international 
NI number 
Name
DoB
Dates in and out

On mentioning frozen pension situation The young lady I spoke to remarked that it was the Australian government that had decided to terminate the reciprocal social security arrangement (!)
I politely pointed out that the decision was -at least in part- a result of the UK government’s intransigence regarding the pension situation, which had been in place long before that.
She went quiet.

If you return on a long term basis the small print of the social security termination agreement may kick in whereby you can be deemed entitled to a UK pension alone (albeit at the maximum applicable rate - “Old” & “New” State Pensions) and therefore lose the Australian pension.

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Michael Goodall

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Oct 9, 2022, 4:44:44 PM10/9/22
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UK Holiday info enclosed and also don't forget the tax relief in Australia.

Best regards,
Mike Goodall
Tel:- 08 6364 0859
Mob:- 0403 909 865



From: bapa...@googlegroups.com <bapa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of cancan1 <can...@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2022 4:53 PM
To: bapa...@googlegroups.com <bapa...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [bapanews] Uprating pension while in UK
 
2017.03.29 Holiday increases and car hire while in the UK.pdf
8% Tax Reduction for Current British Expat Pensioners.docx

elizabeth cardoo

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Oct 10, 2022, 3:20:57 AM10/10/22
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Hi Mike, what do you mean “ don’t forget the tax relief” in Australia. 
I have just noticed that my husband and I only get 50% of Aus pension because of our dismal UK one. 

Sent from my iPad

On 10 Oct 2022, at 07:44, Michael Goodall <mikecg...@btconnect.com> wrote:


8% Tax Reduction for Current British Expat Pensioners.docx
2017.03.29 Holiday increases and car hire while in the UK.pdf

Annie Cory

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Oct 10, 2022, 3:58:29 AM10/10/22
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Hi Mike

I do get the indexed UK pension whilst in UK & Europe as it did in July and August. However Centrelink reduced my pension for the same period. I’m still waiting to return to my usual Centrelink payment which is only a part pension because of the UK pension. 
How can I challenge this so that the UK Payment increased payment is treated as income? 

Annie Cory from my iPad

On 10 Oct 2022, at 17:21, 'elizabeth cardoo' via BAPA <bapa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi Mike, what do you mean “ don’t forget the tax relief” in Australia. 
8% Tax Reduction for Current British Expat Pensioners.docx
2017.03.29 Holiday increases and car hire while in the UK.pdf

Michael Goodall

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Oct 10, 2022, 5:01:22 AM10/10/22
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Uk Pension is considered as taxable income by the ATO. Therefore if you are paying tax don't forget to claim your 8% discount for your UK State Pension proportion of your income.

The UK State Pension only affects the AU pension after an allowance which is about $336 per fortnight for a couple then after that it is only reduced by 50 c in the dollar. The whole pension isn't reduced by 50% because of the UK State Pension. If you are under the income test there could be other reasons why your pension is reduced like the deemed income from your super etc.

Best regards,
Mike Goodall
Tel:- 08 6364 0859
Mob:- 0403 909 865



From: 'elizabeth cardoo' via BAPA <bapa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2022 1:02 PM
To: bapa...@googlegroups.com <bapa...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bapanews] Uprating pension while in UK
 

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David Weston

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Oct 10, 2022, 8:32:17 AM10/10/22
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In Canada, the UK pension is treated as normal taxable income. The amount has no bearing on any other income, pension or not.

This seems to be fair provided it isn’t also taxed in the UK. If that were ever to happen, I think the amount received wouldn’t be taxed here.

The unfairness re the (not)updating by the UK of expat pensions is completely understandable. I feel no different about it. However, I do think that in continuing this fight we are banging our heads on a brick wall. All that will produce is more headaches!

The UK is in a financial mess brought about by, among other things, misguided right wing politics that produced Brexit (IMHO, the worst thing for Britain since WW2). Just keep an eye on what is going on over there by reading the UK newspapers* and you will quickly realize that they will be spending all their political energy, and what money they have, to sort out their own problems, not worrying about expats. These problems include very large numbers of pensioners and families with young children who cannot afford to heat their homes and also put food on the table. The new Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer think that the solution is to reduce income taxes (how does that help the unemployed or those on very low taxable incomes while giving huge reductions to high income people who don’t need it?). 

* I recommend  The Guardian as it isn’t owned or unduly influenced by either big money or the unions. It does right now take a position that is a bit left of centre but that may be just because there is a Conservative government in power. The Guardian is free to read on line but deserves a small voluntary support.


Marianne

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Oct 10, 2022, 11:44:25 AM10/10/22
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Sorry to be thick but are you saying Uk state pension should have an 8% discount?

Thanks

Michael Goodall

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Oct 10, 2022, 7:59:40 PM10/10/22
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If you are a tax payer please discuss it with your tax accountant.

Best regards,
Mike Goodall
Tel:- 08 6364 0859
Mob:- 0403 909 865


From: 'Marianne' via BAPA <bapa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2022 7:03 PM

Jill & Ken Willes

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Oct 11, 2022, 1:25:42 AM10/11/22
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Marianne,

You declare the AUD value of your UK pension receipts as income for the period 1/7/21 to 30/6/22  in your 2022 tax return. 

You can then claim a deduction to reduce the amount of this additional income. The deduction is called the undeducted purchase price.  Take 8% of the total payments received from UK in the period and claim this as a deduction under the appropriate section.

If in any doubt seek advice from an accountant. I’ve been doing this for years and never had any problems.

Just a note of caution, I was the person who worked in UK and paid NI contributions and claimed the pension. My wife never worked there, but she  is also entitled to a pension at a rate of 60% of my pension (as a dependent spouse). She has to declare this as income but cannot claim the 8% deduction 

 

Ken Willes 
Sent from my iPad

On 11 Oct 2022, at 10:59 am, Michael Goodall <mikecg...@btconnect.com> wrote:



Steve Symmons

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Oct 11, 2022, 1:26:55 AM10/11/22
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Because people contribute to the UK pension scheme via NICs a certain proportion of their pension is actually a return of their own funds - critically, funds that did not attract a tax deduction when made. 
No deduction when made means it’s a return of a person’s after tax income 
Therefore not taxable income 
To account for this the ATO allows taxpayers a choice:
An extremely complex method of calculating both the amount contributed and the proportion repaid each year (using actuarial tables of likely lifespan etc)
Or a flat 8 per cent 
Which almost always is a better deal

Therefore, when you lodge your tax return you will see a provision for expenses related to your foreign pension 
Include a figure of 8% of the A$ value of your UK pension there
You may also include the cost of correspondence etc with DWP regarding your pension (eg notification of time in UK or EU/EEA/non frozen pension jurisdiction - just make a diary note unless your total tax deductions exceed $300 in a year, when you should endeavour to retain receipts (or phone records of international call etc) if possible (not always possible these days. But you can show a method used to calculate the expenses).

Say UK pension of 100 per week:
52 weeks = GBP5200
AUD value = $10,000 (for convenience)
8% = $800
Other costs associated with pension 
1 registered letter detailing UK visit 
$50
Taxable amount of pension: $9,150

Marianne

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Oct 11, 2022, 4:23:08 AM10/11/22
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Thank you so much, we have not been getting this and we have an accountant do our taxes every year, unless he just doesn’t mention it.  Will be making an appointment very soon and getting as much back pay as possible, not impressed if he hasn’t been claiming it, would make such a difference to hubby, not me because I don’t earn enough to pay tax anyway!!

Marianne

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Oct 11, 2022, 4:23:33 AM10/11/22
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Hubby has a company pension, tiny private pension and his state pension, I only have a very tiny private pension and the state pension - we don’t get anything from the AU government.

This is such a revelation, so grateful.

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