Bank pensioners; woes

[SIKANDER GULATI]

Dear friends,
While going  through the daily mails on this blog expressing their anguish over the delay in settling the problems of the bank retirees, it can be easily said that the bubble of the frustration is writ large on the faces of the retirees. But friends,  tell me, who is there to support you except Almighty God? All of us are now around 60+. IBA had goofed up some of the retirees by not offering the pension
simply by adding the obnoxious clause. We can not hope much from IBA in the coming BPS . It is the UFBU, which can take up the matters forcefully, but they might also have constraints. Some of the friends forcefully advocate the filing of the cases in courts. What will be the results!. When the cases will come up and when it will reach finality? Such cases are rarely decided in a time frame manner. We may not see the light during our life time. Reinforce your energies by meeting union leaders, pressing upon them the need for up dation of pension and other issues concerning us. See the plight of 5 years notional addition in some banks. An appeal is a legal right of a person/entity and in such matters, the cases drag to the highest court of the land. Imagine the expenses, botheration and trauma, the affected parties have to face. Are all of us ready? Answer, perhaps hesitatingly will be  no!  But if any body bells the cat, to what extent he will continue to bell . These are the hard facts? I have no intention to discourage any body from pursuing legal recourse. It is every body's legal right, but I have simply pin the point.
Already some of our friends are writing/replying &  trying their best like Mr. Prasad, Perumalji, Mohandasji etc. The people sitting at the helm of affairs are from among  us,   who , at one time or the other,  were either our senior or junior colleges.  But everybody has his own interests and they make a class and this distinction will prevail and gaps will increase. In my opinion, better course will be to pursue the UBFU for making pensioners issues in the BPS an important point of discussion and percentage of up dation basing central pattern may be worked out.  But all this requires lot of labour and efforts.  We people  can not march in procession or dharna at Parliament street as we rarely get together.
I would request Prasadji& others, continue   to keep updating the friends frequently on this blog.

kind regards and good health to all.

S.L.Gulati
Adv.& Tax Consultant
PNB-EVRS-2000
9416189525

[C P V Nair]

Dear and respected Gulatiji and all other friends,

 

I got amazed to read your valuable observations.I understand that you are a practising advocate,from your address.Then how Sir, can you  say that there would be undue delay in deciding on these cases.Respected Sir, as an advocate, please be on your feet to correct this 'irregularity' as spelt out by you.If all of us turn our faces away from judicial scrutiny for fear of delay, then how justice will prevail in the society?The advocates' organisations, of which you would be a member, should bring this 'anomaly'to the notice of the Govt.

 

Again, NLP envisages expedition of conduct of  cases.There is a provision for the rescue of senior citizens as well.Why don't the advocates of our country exert pressure on the Govt to enforce the NLP?Would you initiate steps for doing it Sir?This is my personal prayer to you.If we want to fight the injustice meted on us, we have to fight legally also, IN SOME CASES.Moreover, we should not forget that the Hon'ble KHC gave us courage through the historic judgement.The hard efforts of our leader CN Prasad was well appreciated by each one of us for achieving this landmark judgement.

 

You tend to say that we cannot go and agitate.No Sir.We can do it if WE HAVE THE WILL.The Father of our nation, Mahatma was at the age of 73 when he led the 'Quit India movement'.He had the will power to do it Sir.Likewise, we should not get scared that we are old.All of us cannot go to the Parliament House for agitation.We can do it at our state HQ.Those who are near to New Delhi could go there.

 

I have been urging the members of this site that we can arrange for our meets centre wise.There are 4/5 prominent members from my place.We are in constant touch.Again, I beg to remind you Sir, 'If there is a will, there is a way'.

 

To conclude, let me humbly remind you Sir, at present, we are not direct members of any constituents of UFBU.UFBU has its own problems now itself.We can only plead them.It seems, IBA has expressed the view that UFBU holds no manadate to represent us.So let us understand where we stand.

 

There is only one solution Sir-let us unite, strengthen our organisations.Use the strength to protest, agitate and demand.Can we approach the SC with the prayer that we should be heard by the IBA as from 1993, we are not heard.(Pension was introduced in 1993)

 

I am 64 and retired in MMII from SBT-VRS.I am prepared to take part in any agitational programme in Kerala.Likewise, let us find out similar persons in all the states.In the process, we shall touch Mumbai(IBA) and reach New Delhi (abode of our Gods).

 

Thank you very much Sir, for opening up a channel for me to react pro actively.

 

Warm Regards, Sir.

 

 

C P V NAIR 

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[Prasad C N]

Dear Mr.Nairji,

NLP does not aid us in any manner.

 

Thanks, a Million.

With regards,
Prasad C N

---

From: C P V Nair <cpvnai...@gmail.com>
To: bankpe...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2012 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: bankpensioner Bank pensioners; woes

[SIKANDER GULATI]

Dear friends,
Go through the reply mail of Mr.Prasad of even date and you will find that this is the gist of all that and we are confronted with the reality. That is what we have been maintaining all these times. Suggestions/ reply by Mr. CPV Nair to my mail is also appreciable.
I have clearly intended in my mail on the blog that I am not against any body's moving legal recourse. On various fora, the delay in rendering justice to the  people is taken up with like Govt. level and Supreme court level. All are seized of the matter. But there are limitations of shortage of judges in every High Court and even the Supreme court keeping in view the number of cases filed.
So, the process of legal delay is quite natural. It is not alone the bank pensioners who feel aggrieved because of judicial delays. Every section of society is affected and certainly there are more important cases than ours awaiting justice on criminal side.
So, Prasad's maintaining that  we people are better off than some others and worse than some others is very much correct. It happens in every service industry. We are part of the society and have to move along with.

I would appreciate, if some steps as suggested by Mr. Nair on the blog in his mail are initiated in real terms simultaneously apart from approaching the Union leaders (UFBU) or anybody who matters the most.

Warm regards.


S.L.Gulati
Adv. & Tax Consultant
PNB-EVRS-2000
9416189525

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: C P V Nair <cpvnai...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: bankpensioner Bank pensioners; woes

[C P V Nair]

Refer para V (D) b of the NLP. Does it not aid us in SOME manner, friends?

 

 

Reg

 

 

CPVNAIR

[L S RAMAN]

In response to the above I wish to add that major achievements so far
relevant to to rights of the pensioners including VRS optees have been
achieved through legal but long drawn battle.
There fore we should thank the Pensioner friends who had initiated
relevant legal initiatives. We should therefore pursue all avenues
open to us and can not depend on limited approaches. Indian Banks
Association is an organisetion representing Public Sector Banks and
they should bear in mind that their initiatives should be oriented
towards the welfare of pensioners in terms of the GOI policies in
order that the PSBS set an example of a good employer.
Thankyou.L.S.Raman.

[J SOMASEKARA]

Recently many of the members have been expressing views that we nust sue IBA. Is it possible?

Please clarify following points.

IBA is a Non-Government private body. As employees/pensioners we have no contractual relationship with IBA. IBA is not implementing authority. There is contract exists between IBA and Member Banks on one side and IBA and Unions on other side. We have contractual relationship only with our bank from which we are getting pension. PF optees even do not have this relationship.

We have no right on agreements that are yet to be signed. Once the agreements are signed and amended by banks then only legally it become relevant to us. If there is any violations of such agreements we have to file suit against our own bank amd not IBA.

Is there any clause inserted in agreements entered into by IBA that it will be legally liable for violation of terms and conditions while implementing or interpreting ? Are these agreements specifically provide legal recourse to Unions against IBA in case of such vilations? As far as my knoeledge goes only unions undertake that it will not go to courts against terms and conditions.

Under the circumstances can we file suit against IBA?

On the other hand can we file suit against Uions for signing agreennts that are against the interests of members? Since there is general mandate to unions to carry out duties in the interests of its members anything they do can be defended as done in the interests of memebrs.

Peculair thing is if you go through objectives of IBA its scope of activities are so wide that it has not left any department of banking. It is framing guide lines/issung advises/exteacting information from government owned banks

and other departments like RBI and Central Government. While it can deal with and get information from all departments IBA claims it is private body and nobody can ask information from it under RTI Act.

Further please clarify is it legally binding on banks to accept instructions of IBA ? Is it not the responsibility of banks to ensure that such guide lines are within the frame work of existing laws viz pension Regulations etc/

As claimed by IBA it can only negotiate matters that is mandated by Banks. so what is specific mandate given by banks to IBA in second pension agreemnt. After agreemnt is signed it is clear that as per the agreemnt all categories of retirees are eligible for pension. But IBA instructions are different. So what is the option for governemnt owned banks. Is it  to accept instructions of IBA as bible? Or to discharge its duties in proper manner is it not the resposbility of banks to seek legal opinion and the opinion is different from IBAs instructions refer the matter to Central government?

Whatever the way you see both IBA and Unions escape noose as they are private bodies. It is only banks finally  legally responsible for violation of such agreemnts.

I request members to please comment and guide me in the matter.

[Rajagopalan K T]

My immediate response is that if Mr Somasekara's view is accepted, IBA has unbridled power with absolutely no responsibility.  

Please visit my blog: wannabewodehouse.blogspot.com

[C P V Nair]

In such a scenario, I repeat the question-why do want a white elephant called 'IBA'?Let us advocate(beg?) unbundling it! It causes harm to serving employees, retirees etc.But the doubt is, would UFBU agree to this?

 

Reg

 

 

CPVNAIR

[L S RAMAN]

In respect of the above the following observations are
relevant.I.B.A is is the authrised agent representing the PSBs and
the Govt of India as the major share holderof PSBs to negotiate
certain I.R.issues including wage revision with in the mandate given
by the Govt.I.B.A is accoutable to the member Banks and the
individual employees of member Banks in case they go beyond the law of
the land and violate mandate given by Govt of India regarding any
settlement.There fore I.B.A can be sued if there is any issue
warranting legal action.
There are instances where both I.B.A and the Unions have gone beyond
their mandate causing considerable loss to the pensioners.
Raman L.S.

>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* C P V Nair <cpvnai...@gmail.com>
>>> *To:* bankpe...@googlegroups.com
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, 12 August 2012 7:48 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: bankpensioner Bank pensioners; woes

>>> *From:* SIKANDER GULATI <sikander...@gmail.com>
>>> *To:* bankpe...@googlegroups.com
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 12, 2012 2:18 PM
>>> *Subject:* bankpensioner Bank pensioners; woes
>>>
>>> *Dear friends,

>>> 9416189525*

[Prasad C N]

Dear Mr.Nair,

I am reproducing para V D of NLP.  Para b provides for the issues where no appeals should be filed in pension/retirement benefits.  There should not be any involvement of principle or should not set any precedent of financial implications.

In our cases, all the three are in existence.

D) In Service Matters, no appeal will be filed in cases where:

a) the matter pertains to an individual grievance without any major repercussion;

b) the matter pertains to a case of pension or retirement benefits without involving any 

principle and without setting any precedent or financial implications.

 

Thanks, a Million.

With regards,
Prasad C N

---

From: C P V Nair <cpvnai...@gmail.com>
To: bankpe...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2012 10:49 PM

[C P V Nair]

Dear all,

So far, so good.Let us take it beyond .NLP at least recognises retirees.The Govt/IBA does  not show such a magnanimity!

 

In order to cheat the NLP, can we think of filing individual cases?(Neglect the costs- we have solution)

If so there will not be any' major repercussion', treating  cases individually.(here one may argue that the Court may club all-not our fault)

We don't claim precedent- we concentrate on our cases(if somebody later claims precedence, it is not our concern)

 

For every legal provision/stricture, able laywers would derive some formula to overcome it.

 

Let us search for all the loopeholes in law/legal interpretations/policies to penetrate with our points for retirees.Every Law has point 'for' and 'against'.

We shall ponder over 'for' points as of now.

As I am not a legal expert, I am not aware of the legal fall outs of the above.

 

Thank you Prasadji, your dedicated works enlighten us more.Thanks a lot indeed!

 

 

Warm Reg

[L S RAMAN]

The case in respect of Bank of Baroda the appeal filed in the Hon
Supreme Court by
the concerned Bank and IBA does not qualify for filing an appeal as
per the above mentioned parameters. How ever appeals are filed
irrespective of legal reasoning mainly to gain time and to harass the
the pensioners with out any regard and consideration for their age .It
appears that I.B.A is arbitrarily filing appeals and they should be
held responsible for the delay and discomfort suffered by the
pensioners.Raman.L.S.

[perumal maruthu]

Dear Mr.Somaekara,

You have raised issues of varied nature, but look alike.

1) Mr. KTR has made it clear that the affected retiree can initiate legal action against IBA for dilly-dallying and for the cosequent pecuinary loss and mental agony.

2)You have raised a doubt over it. Only when an affected person files a case, we can come to know whether IBA is responsible for its lapses and  can be prosecuted.

3) In the 5Years Case also IBA was included as a party.

4)I agree with your view that we have a relationship with our respective Bank. Though IBA is not having any direct contact with the Employees/Ex-employees of Member Banks, it can not shirk its fiduciary relationship to advise the Member Banks on matters of interpreting the settlement clauses.

5)

Further please clarify is it legally binding on banks to accept instructions of IBA ? Is it not the responsibility of banks to ensure that such guide lines are within the frame work of existing laws viz pension Regulations etc/

 

The answer is yes, sometimes. BPS is signed under ID ACT after negotiation. Yet a few Banks do commit violations as in the case of ICICI Bank who refuse to accord 7th BPS benefits to its erstwhile Bank of Madura Employees' Pensioners. Here IBA can not be sued as ICICI has raised a legal dispute and denied the benefits to its Pensioners.

6)On the other hand can we file suit against Uions for signing agreennts that are against the interests of members? 

 

There are a few instances Unions have been sued. But before going deep into it one must know what is the term 'against the interst of members'.

A) When Aibea signed the MOU on Pension in 1993, majority of the Officers and nearly 40% Awardstaff branded Pension as against the interests of the Bankstaff.

It has taken 15 long years to understand what is against or for the interst of the Staff.

B)Whether anyone ever contemplated a suit against any Union or his Leader for wantonly misleading its/his followers to reject Pension?

M.Perumal 

From: J SOMASEKARA <jsomase...@gmail.com>
To: bankpe...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 13 August 2012 9:35 AM

Subject: Re: bankpensioner Bank pensioners; woes

Recently many of the members have been expressing views that we nust sue IBA. Is it possible?

Please clarify following points.

IBA is a Non-Government private body. As employees/pensioners we have no contractual relationship with IBA. IBA is not implementing authority. There is contract exists between IBA and Member Banks on one side and IBA and Unions on other side. We have contractual relationship only with our bank from which we are getting pension. PF optees even do not have this relationship.

We have no right on agreements that are yet to be signed. Once the agreements are signed and amended by banks then only legally it become relevant to us. If there is any violations of such agreements we have to file suit against our own bank amd not IBA.

Is there any clause inserted in agreements entered into by IBA that it will be legally liable for violation of terms and conditions while implementing or interpreting ? Are these agreements specifically provide legal recourse to Unions against IBA in case of such vilations? As far as my knoeledge goes only unions undertake that it will not go to courts against terms and conditions.

Under the circumstances can we file suit against IBA?

On the other hand can we file suit against Uions for signing agreennts that are against the interests of members? Since there is general mandate to unions to carry out duties in the interests of its members anything they do can be defended as done in the interests of memebrs.

Peculair thing is if you go through objectives of IBA its scope of activities are so wide that it has not left any department of banking. It is framing guide lines/issung advises/exteacting information from government owned banks

and other departments like RBI and Central Government. While it can deal with and get information from all departments IBA claims it is private body and nobody can ask information from it under RTI Act.

Further please clarify is it legally binding on banks to accept instructions of IBA ? Is it not the responsibility of banks to ensure that such guide lines are within the frame work of existing laws viz pension Regulations etc/

As claimed by IBA it can only negotiate matters that is mandated by Banks. so what is specific mandate given by banks to IBA in second pension agreemnt. After agreemnt is signed it is clear that as per the agreemnt all categories of retirees are eligible for pension. But IBA instructions are different. So what is the option for governemnt owned banks. Is it  to accept instructions of IBA as bible? Or to discharge its duties in proper manner is it not the resposbility of banks to seek legal opinion and the opinion is different from IBAs instructions refer the matter to Central government?

Whatever the way you see both IBA and Unions escape noose as they are private bodies. It is only banks finally  legally responsible for violation of such agreemnts.

I request members to please comment and guide me in the matter.

Dear Mr.Nairji,

NLP does not aid us in any manner.

 

Thanks, a Million.

With regards,
Prasad C N

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