RE: [BBC] Re: Looking for a Repair Shop around Indiranagar ( in

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vikas mk

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Feb 1, 2014, 11:00:02 PM2/1/14

to Ashok Kumar S, Sreepathi Pai, Bangalore Bikers Club

and around )
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Maybe people ought to mention here when the had a good experience at a
LBS. Would give confidence to people who haven't tried out these shops
yet.
And maybe in the long run, these HBS ( Hifi Bike Shops :P) may reduce
their charges . Ultimately everything boils down to demand and supply.

~ Vikas
From: Ashok Kumar S
Sent: 02-02-2014 AM 09:19
To: Sreepathi Pai
Cc: Bangalore Bikers Club
Subject: Re: [BBC] Re: Looking for a Repair Shop around Indiranagar (
in and around )
Your example is good. All the highly charging doctors are not good
ones. That's exactly my point too.

I have read that truing steel wheels is easy while doing that on
aluminium without cracking it requires skill. And if the wheel is
cracked after truing, not to use it. I find many local shops having
that skill.

And when 2k is charged for a bicycle service, if it is ridiculous
again. No matter how many points you put forward to justify it. :)

Thanks and regards,
Ashok.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 01-Feb-2014, at 23:53, Sreepathi Pai <sre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Ashok Kumar S <s.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, you got a point there, I think. But the shop has to convey it that way.
>> "It's risky and it might not be safe to fix it and ride. "
>
> A bike shop cannot take that risk. Too many people ignore well-meaning
> expert advice even when they do not know better. "Informed choice" is
> a misnomer. Comments about medicine and medical doctors in this forum
> highlight this. Given the ready availability of forums on Web 2.0
> where people can vent without logic or reason or the full facts, it's
> a PR nightmare waiting to happen.
>
> I mean, even on this thread, a purely factual question about the
> availability of repair shops has degenerated into a discussion of the
> motivations and "greed" of software engineers who have taken up
> bicycling as a business, their clothing choices, their English accent,
> followed by utter economic nonsense on the pricing of services (if
> prices are too high in an ostensibly free market, then it is an
> entrepreneurial opportunity to seize!).
>
> Now imagine something bad happening despite warnings -- a store may
> have to endure posts to groups, facebook, etc. It isn't worth the
> cost, in my opinion, especially given that the Internet never forgets.
>
> This is not hypothetical -- I have seen posts condemning manufacturers
> where the fault was clearly the riders.
>
>>
>> But what if the reason given is that it may break while attempting to true?
>
> It may. It may not.
>
> When my friends and I have tried to retrue aluminium wheels that were
> bent, we've sometimes caused the spokes to break through the spoke
> hole and ruin the rim (these were cheap rims). We've ruined a number
> of rims this way. No rim has shattered or "broken" in our limited
> experience.
>
> What might our typical Indian customer do? "You broke the rim when
> repairing -- you replace it!" In a fully tensioned standard wheel
> with steel spokes, according to Brandt, the spokes are hardly at 1/3rd
> yield strength, so it is physically possible to do this. Will our
> hypothetical customer understand?
>
>> Also, I know that you know a lot about bike related stuff. I would like to
>> learn and know why these experts if they say so, say that aluminium wheels
>> must be trashed instead of truing. Do you have any inputs to enlighten me a
>> bit?
>
> It isn't true that most aluminium wheels have to be trashed. However,
> for most shops, the expertise to evaluate this versus the cost of
> being wrong means that they will make the rational economic choice to
> trash the rim.
>
> Brandt's the Bicycle Wheel is the definitive guide to understanding
> why and how wheels fail and how to repair them. I strongly recommend
> reading it. It contains a whole section devoted to repairing wheels as
> well as good discussion of how different metals behave.
>
> He mentions, for example, that straightened rims will often have
> unequal tension in the spokes and hence may lose trueness over time.
> The first part is easily tested using a good tensiometer.
>
> Is a customer willing to live with a wheel that may lose trueness over
> time? This is one of the real tradeoffs, not price.
>
>>
>> And again, what if the usage is just for regular commute at 20-25kmph
>> instead of pace making or racing?
>
> The dynamic stresses on a bicycle are complicated enough that just the
> speed of the cycle isn't very meaningful.
>
> Consider a slow-moving cycle that suddenly dips into the standard
> Indian pothole (or flies over a speed breaker). What is the magnitude
> of the force it is going to experience?
>
>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Ashok.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 01-Feb-2014, at 21:10, Sreepathi Pai <sre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 1:26 AM, Ashok Kumar S <s.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> And I still see it as two wheels
>>
>> and a very simple gear mechanism. It's the simplest of all the vehicles on
>>
>> our road.
>>
>>
>> Let's take that example of wheels out of true, lets say due to a crash.
>>
>> One favorite method of mechanics of old, who dealt with steel wheels,
>> is to step on the rim (with spokes removed), and flatten it.
>> Sometimes, their favorite all purpose tool, the hammer is also used.
>>
>> Lets repeat that experiment on an aluminium rim. It is now round, and
>> rides "smoothly" and "quietly", as "new".
>>
>> Would you trust coming down on a hill at 70kmph on it?
>>
>> I mean, there must be a reason for most respectable bike shops around
>> the world to trash aluminium wheels and not "repair" them. Maybe they
>> have some PhD metallurgists on staff.
>>
>> --
>> Sreepathi Pai
>
>
>
> --
> Sreepathi Pai

--
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Visit www.bangalorebicyclechampionships.com for more details
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<html><head><meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Cont=
ent-Type"></head><body><div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; =
font-size: 11pt;">Maybe people ought to mention here when the had a good ex=
perience at a LBS. Would give confidence to people who haven't tried out th=
ese shops yet. And maybe in the long run, these HBS ( Hifi Bike Shops :=
P) may reduce their charges . Ultimately everything boils down to demand an=
d supply. ~ Vikas </div></div><hr>From: Ashok Kumar S</span=
> Sent: 02-02-2014 AM 09:19 To: Sreepathi Pai</spa=
n> Cc: Bangalore Bikers Club Subject: <s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [BBC] Re=
: Looking for a Repair Shop around Indiranagar ( in and around ) =
 </body></html><html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"=
text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Your example is =
good. All the highly charging doctors are not good ones. That's exactly my =
point too.</div><div> </div><div> I have read that truing steel whe=
els is easy while doing that on aluminium without cracking it requires skil=
l. And if the wheel is cracked after truing, not to use it. I find many loc=
al shops having that skill. </div><div> </div><div>And when 2k is c=
harged for a bicycle service, if it is ridiculous again. No matter how many=
points you put forward to justify it. :) Thanks and regards,<div>As=
hok. </div><div> </div><div>Sent f=
rom my iPhone</div></div><div> On 01-Feb-2014, at 23:53, Sreepath=
i Pai <<a href=3D"mailto:sre...@gmail.com">sre...@gmail.com</a>> wr=
ote: </div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 =
at 10:46 AM, Ashok Kumar S <<a href=3D"mailto:s.a...@gmail.com">s.ashok=
@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote type=3D"cite">Yes, yo=
u got a point there, I think. But the shop has to convey it that way.</span=
> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">"It's risky and it might =
not be safe to fix it and ride. " </blockquote> <=
span>A bike shop cannot take that risk. Too many people ignore well-meaning=
 expert advice even when they do not know better. "Informed=
choice" is a misnomer. Comments about medicine and medical=
doctors in this forum highlight this. Given the ready avai=
lability of forums on Web 2.0 where people can vent without=
logic or reason or the full facts, it's a PR nightmare wai=
ting to happen. I mean, even on this threa=
d, a purely factual question about the availability of repa=
ir shops has degenerated into a discussion of the motivatio=
ns and "greed" of software engineers who have taken up bicy=
cling as a business, their clothing choices, their English accent,<b=
r>followed by utter economic nonsense on the pricing of services (if<=
/span> prices are too high in an ostensibly free market, then it i=
s an entrepreneurial opportunity to seize!). <spa=
n> Now imagine something bad happening despite warnings -- =
a store may have to endure posts to groups, facebook, etc. =
It isn't worth the cost, in my opinion, especially given th=
at the Internet never forgets. This is not=
hypothetical -- I have seen posts condemning manufacturers <span=
>where the fault was clearly the riders. <blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
But what if the reason given is that it may break while attempting to=
true? </blockquote> It may. It may not.</s=
pan> When my friends and I have tried to retrue a=
luminium wheels that were bent, we've sometimes caused the =
spokes to break through the spoke hole and ruin the rim (th=
ese were cheap rims). We've ruined a number of rims this wa=
y. No rim has shattered or "broken" in our limited experien=
ce. What might our typical Indian customer=
do? "You broke the rim when repairing -- you replace it!" =
 In a fully tensioned standard wheel with steel spokes=
, according to Brandt, the spokes are hardly at 1/3rd yield=
strength, so it is physically possible to do this. Will our <spa=
n>hypothetical customer understand? <blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Also, I know that you know a lot about bike related stu=
ff. I would like to </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
learn and know why these experts if they say so, say that aluminium wheels<=
/span> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">must be trashed inst=
ead of truing. Do you have any inputs to enlighten me a </blockqu=
ote><blockquote type=3D"cite">bit? </blockquote></spa=
n> It isn't true that most aluminium wheels have to be trashed. Ho=
wever, for most shops, the expertise to evaluate this versu=
s the cost of being wrong means that they will make the rat=
ional economic choice to trash the rim. </s=
pan> Brandt's the Bicycle Wheel is the definitive guide to underst=
anding why and how wheels fail and how to repair them. I st=
rongly recommend reading it. It contains a whole section de=
voted to repairing wheels as well as good discussion of how=
different metals behave. He mentions, for=
example, that straightened rims will often have unequal te=
nsion in the spokes and hence may lose trueness over time. =
The first part is easily tested using a good tensiometer. <=
/span> Is a customer willing to live with a wheel that may lose tr=
ueness over time? This is one of the real tradeoffs, not pr=
ice. <blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">And again, what if the usage i=
s just for regular commute at 20-25kmph </blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">instead of pace making or racing? </blockquot=
e> The dynamic stresses on a bicycle are complicated =
enough that just the speed of the cycle isn't very meaningf=
ul. Consider a slow-moving cycle that sudd=
enly dips into the standard Indian pothole (or flies over a=
speed breaker). What is the magnitude of the force it is g=
oing to experience? <blockquote=
type=3D"cite">Thanks and regards, </blockquote><blockquote=
type=3D"cite">Ashok. </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Sent from m=
y iPhone </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 01-Feb-2014, at 21:10, Sree=
pathi Pai <<a href=3D"mailto:sre...@gmail.com">sre...@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote: </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 1:26 AM=
, Ashok Kumar S <<a href=3D"mailto:s.a...@gmail.com">s.a...@gmail.com<=
/a>> wrote: </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"></spa=
n> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">And I still see it as tw=
o wheels </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">and a very simple gear mechani=
sm. It's the simplest of all the vehicles on </blockquote><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
our road. </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"></sp=
an> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> </blockquote=
><blockquote type=3D"cite">Let's take that example of wheels out of t=
rue, lets say due to a crash. </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">One favor=
ite method of mechanics of old, who dealt with steel wheels, </bl=
ockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">is to step on the rim (with spokes=
removed), and flatten it. </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
>Sometimes, their favorite all purpose tool, the hammer is also used.=
 </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> </blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Lets repeat that experiment on an alum=
inium rim. It is now round, and </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite">rides "smoothly" and "quietly", as "new". </blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite">Would you trust coming down on a hill at 70kmph on it?</spa=
n> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> </blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite">I mean, there must be a reason for most res=
pectable bike shops around </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
>the world to trash aluminium wheels and not "repair" them. Maybe the=
y </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">have some PhD meta=
llurgists on staff. </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
 </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">-- </bloc=
kquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Sreepathi Pai </blockquote=
> -- <sp=
an>Sreepathi Pai </div></blockquote></body></html>



-- 
biking conversations on the world famous "Bangalore Bikers Club" =
:) 
  
are you a part of the bicycle racing scene? 
Visit www.bangalorebicyclechampionships.com for more details 
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog=
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