Non-Motorized vehicles (cyclists etc) not be allowed to use highways

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

https://factly.in/cyclists-other-non-motorized-vehicles-should-not-be-allowed-on-main-roads-in-metros-parl-standing-committee-on-transport/

Please contact your friends in the Govt, the BJP , the NDA parties, bureaucrats, anybody you know. This sort of thing should not be allowed.

It makes my blood boil that they could even make such recommendations

Regards

Chiddu

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

I quote

"The Committee also stresses that the non-

motorized vehicles do not follow road rules and create a lot of nuisance. They are

traffic hazard for others also. The Committee recommends that for smooth

traffic, there is a need of streamlining non-motorized vehicles by introducing

minor penalty/punishment. Here the punishment may be prescribed as corrective

measures like giving training on traffic rules and not as penalty in monetary term.

The Committee recommends that the non-motorized vehicles should not be

allowed on National Highways and main roads of metro cities."

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Chandrashekar T N <chandras...@gmail.com> wrote:

This should not be allowed at any cost.. We will fight for it.. We cyclists need to unite together all over india to protest.

Committee has gone mad.. Let government make separate path for cyclists first and bring these kind of rules.

Regards,

Chandrashekar

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[Opendro]

I saw this coming though it is sooner than I imagined.

As I had mentioned earlier many times, we have been outlawed for a long time even though it was not spelled out explicitly.

Promulgators of no-cyclist-on-pavement should now be really happy that we have been officially outlawed on the roads as well so that we can take the moral high ground in chiding those who ride on the road too.

I'm afraid that there is nothing we can do except to keep violating the rule (if enforced), because the fight is heavily positioned against us due to the minuscule size of cyclists among urban transport.

Re-quoting the line from Devadas: "Dad said to leave the town ... everyone said to leave Paro ... Paro said to leave alcohol ... today you said leave the mansion ... one day will come when they will say, to leave the world itself" Very apt line for us :-)

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 11:02:55 AM UTC+5:30, Chidambaran S( Chiddu) wrote:

I quote

"The Committee also stresses that the non-

motorized vehicles do not follow road rules and create a lot of nuisance. They are

traffic hazard for others also. The Committee recommends that for smooth

traffic, there is a need of streamlining non-motorized vehicles by introducing

minor penalty/punishment. Here the punishment may be prescribed as corrective

measures like giving training on traffic rules and not as penalty in monetary term.

The Committee recommends that the non-motorized vehicles should not be

allowed on National Highways and main roads of metro cities."

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Chandrashekar T N <chandras...@gmail.com> wrote:

This should not be allowed at any cost.. We will fight for it.. We cyclists need to unite together all over india to protest.

Committee has gone mad.. Let government make separate path for cyclists first and bring these kind of rules.

Regards,

Chandrashekar

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Chidambaran Subramanian <chi...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://factly.in/cyclists-other-non-motorized-vehicles-should-not-be-allowed-on-main-roads-in-metros-parl-standing-committee-on-transport/

Please contact your friends in the Govt, the BJP , the NDA parties, bureaucrats, anybody you know. This sort of thing should not be allowed.

It makes my blood boil that they could even make such recommendations

Regards

Chiddu

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[Prashanth Chengi]

"

Promulgators of no-cyclist-on-pavement should now be really happy"

Don't think so. I myself was and am a vocal promulgator of no-cyclist-on-pavement, because pavements in India are bad enough with hawkers and death-traps that the lives and well-being of pedestrians is already in danger, without bicyclists being assholes, to add to their woes. 

Having got that out of the way, it's important to protest this insanity, without duplicating efforts. I haven't found the time to check if there have already been any change.org petitions etc which are gaining traction. If they are, they should be supported, instead of starting other petitions asking for the same thing. It's however important that there is a sizable number of voices protesting this. Might be worth considering a critical mass style ride, to garner support and spread awareness about this.  If the steel flyover was sent to the garbage bin due to citizen action, this too can be done, but it's a bigger challenge, considering that it's the central government which is pushing this. The stakes are also higher, since this is going to be a pan India consequence, and not something local.

/Prashanth

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[Opendro]

That is exactly what I meant by the dialogue from Devadas : Pedestrians said "leave the pavement", motor vehicles said "leave the road" and now the government says "you are outlawed" :-D

Actually, no cyclist would want to ride in a busy pedestrian track. We are just trying to fit into a space which is evidently available and feasible to us. We should rather protest against those vehicles (cars and trucks) parked on pavements.

Steel flyover was successful because many citizens saw the impact of that. But no one sees the impact of banning cyclists on the road. In fact, there is no impact at all. We are pushing just for our own vested interest.

The only way forward for me is civil disobedience :-) Not worth spending effort on a losing battle.

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[Prashanth Chengi]

"Actually, no cyclist would want to ride in a busy pedestrian track."

No, Open. Trouble with these sweeping statements is that you assume things, on the basis of either your own actions/motivations, or simply imagination. We've heard Karthick describe right here on this very forum, how a bicyclist was quite the asshole, and the victim was an elderly pedestrian, and I can bet you that he's by no means the only offender, so, the 'no cyclist would want to' statement is both absurd and plain wrong. Where there is misuse/abuse, it should be corrected, else it will lead to denial of services. Where there is injustice, we should certainly not relent. There's also a need to be able to differentiate between civil disobedience, which is often needed, and anarchy, which is often the result. If the forum members know of any movement gaining traction to protest this insane new proposal, please let me know, as I'd like to be a part of it too.

/Prashanth

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[Shreyas Gopinath]

Playing Devli's Advocate here:

Considering a large number of cyclists that use the roads are not urban 'commuters' or professionals, I've noticed that they are extremely vulnerable to accidents because of poor riding practices such as (but not limited to) - riding on the extreme right lane of busy roads (for e.g. I've seen cyclists doing this even on fast roads such as the Old Airport Road), cutting lanes when there's an obstruction on the left lane, attempting to make turns from the most extreme lane. 

Combine this with cycles that are heavier and non-geared, the government, as a policy-maker, would be inclined to prevent lethal accidents (cyclists, with pedestrians, constituted half the number of people killed in accidents) by not allowing them on highways. If you're a car driver and you are zooming at over 100 km/h, the last thing you want to encounter is a cyclist on the fast lane, pedalling at 15 km/h. 

The solution then? The ideal long-term solution is to institute biking routes like the US and other countries have (see https://www.adventurecycling.org/routes-and-maps/us-bicycle-route-system/ ). The medium-term solution is to avoid highways and seek smaller roads and local highways. Even as a cyclist with relatively fast bike, 

I'm not comfortable on cycling on highways. It's just too unsafe and the trade-off isn't worth it. I wouldn't encourage others either. Especially, when as a cycling community, we are trying to get more people to get cycling. Races and brevets on highways can come later. 

Cheers,

Shreyas

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

This is about city commuting, primarily

[Shreyas Gopinath]

Oh oh sorry - I read the headline and didn't notice the 'main roads of metro cities bit'. My bad! 

[Opendro]

Absolutely true! That is exactly what happened in Copenhagen. They didn't come up with cyclist friendly design to encourage cycling. They came up with that design to reduce the accidents caused by motor vehicles.

As you and many others rightly pointed out, cyclists are not the safest in terms of riding style. But blaming the chicken for its behivior in the cage where lions are also allowed is not correct. Who causes fatal accidents - cyclists or motor vehicles? Copenhagen found the answer to this question different from the rest of the world. The whole perspective of cycling and motor vehicles changed thereafter.

Once the infrastructure is in place, it is easier to convert more people into cycling. Disciplines can be easily taught in the schools like how Denmark does. Just make it a mandatory subject to be cleared by 5th standard.

But if government is waiting for a sizable number of cyclists before making the infrastructure, that is never going to happen.

[Karthick Gururaj]

There are clauses for highways too.. The last line reads: "The committee recommends that the non-motorized vehicles should not be allowed on National Highways and main roads of metro cities".

Also, don't know what the following means for cyclists:

But maybe there are some positives?

Go on, dream of cycle lanes on our NH.. :) But I wonder if lane segregation on NH is really possible.. Other than GQ, most highways are still 2 lane carriageways.. if they do have a lane to dedicate, they must consider keeping it for driver-less cars and trucks convoy :) That would be something.. but I digress.

And the clause about non-motorized vehicles in metros..

...is really "un-parliamentary" in tone. "..create a lot of nuisance.."? Such a blunt dismissal? No stats on how many accidents they have caused for example.. it reads like someone's personal opinion.. Sounds a lot like the familiar banner we see scribbled on walls to discourage public urination: "Please don't create nuisance here..". Now, if there are well maintained cycle lanes (and pedestrian walkways) through out the city - then they _may_ be justified in asking cyclists and pedestrians to not use the main roads.. BTW, the language of the report is slightly odd.. in parts it is very formal; and other sections - quite funny.

The clause is not only about cyclists. It says very clearly "non-motorized vehicles" (and other clauses refer to "bicycles" directly). It will include pushcarts, bullock carts and the like. Maybe the committee felt that these contribute to a lot of "nuisance"? Come to think of it, I have traffic reports on radio saying that there is a jam on the main roads due to breakdown of pushcart or a cycle - exactly zero times. Just pushing them out as nuisance is very elitist. At least those who are "by choice cyclist" can figure out alternatives. But there are many who cycle as they don't have any other choice: your apartment security folks, pushcart vendors, office "peons"..

I don't think that a cyclist riding on pavement has anything to do with the recommendation. You can bet your last rupee that the honourable members of the committee haven't faced hardship from cyclists when they were walking on pavement in a main road of a metro city.

- Karthick

[Opendro]

Seriously! Hahaha. I had thought along the same line long ago. I used to blame slow moving vehicles in signaled junctions as the main reason for unqualified drivers clogging the junctions. I believe that enforcing a minimum speed in signaled junctions will ensure that

1. No one dares to move over the stop line unless he sees the way clear ahead of him. Currently, drivers will just stop in the middle of junction if the way forward is jammed. This is utter non-sense. They believe that green signal gives them right to move over and stop in the middle of the junction thereby blocking all other ways.
2. No one dares to break the imaginary lane curve in a junction when they turn. Currently, majority of drivers don't know how to negotiate a curve/junction from the outer lane and everyone accommodates such inexperienced drivers thereby slowing down the whole traffic.

Anyway, I don't see any hope for the future. These are all just for academic discussion.

[santosh kumar]

Today, I felt so empowered while riding to office! most of the motorists were stranded on the road, most of them single occupants of a car, with nowhere to go! I just zoomed past them! If this rule is enforced, we may be forced to participate in the traffic jam! 

These motorists are such a nuisance! :D

Cheers
Santosh

[Opendro]

Is it okay to display my sadist pleasure in public too? ;-)

Yeah, I also saw the jam and I was so happy. I contributed my suffering in solidarity when I took 3 hours to go and return from railway station between 9 and 12 mid night. Traffic was halted everywhere.

We can blame the administrators for the quality of infrastructure. But we have to take a huge blame ourselves. Just consider this: buses are stuck and the passengers inside are all young. What stops them to get down from the bus and start walking? Car fellows are stuck with their cars anyway. Point I'm trying to convey is that we don't mind spending hours stuck on the road, but we won't do anything that will alleviate our pain - be it car guy or bus guy.

I'm super happy. The days I envisioned are coming sooner that I predicted.

Cheers
Santosh

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[Vinod Raja]

While we discuss non motorised vehicle ban on highways and main roads in metros, this was reported in Deccan Herald.

http://m.deccanherald.com/articles.php?name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deccanherald.com%2Fcontent%2F600099%2Fmysuru-first-city-have-bicycle.html

[berkeleydb]

Will go through the details of the govt recommendation in detail later, but going by the bits quoted here by folks -- looks like there is some thought being given to allowing non-motorised & slow vehicles on special lanes on highways, but unless there are at least 3 lanes in each direction, I don't think it will be feasible (as others also mentioned). So this can fast translate into "get of the current highways", & when your alternate lanes are ready, you can come back.

For something like this to be sensible, we really need service roads along entire stretches of highways. Our National highways themselves selves don't have that, AFAIK. State highways are a different matter.

(Open -- on another thread few weeks back, you had said something about you never riding on roads with no shoulder. I had asked clarification/confirmation from you, but didn't see a response. You might have missed my post. You really don't ride on highways with no shoulder? I thought various brevet rides etc. happen on State highways with no shoulders?)

Coming to city roads -- I think they govt is again being unreasonable. First they need to make sure the bigger vehicles are following all the rules, before talking of non-motorised / slow vehicles being a nuisance. I agree that cyclists etc. in the fast lane are a hazard, but lot of it is due to lack of proper roads infra. Hope the govt takes a more balanced view.

We had some officials of DULT etc. who were supporting cycling. Can we approach them & start channeling our inputs into such govt. discussions / committees? Also, my sense is that Rajeev Chandrasekhar is a progressive corporator in Bangalore. Can we approach him & any other such folks to pursue our cause? Plus some critical mass type rides as suggested by others should also help give cycling more visibility.

-{db}.

PS: Open -- PC I think pretty much said what I would have said re: cycling on pavements in the context of this argument. Sure, if roads are declared off limits from cyclists, many may say they do_not have a choice, but to ride on pavements. Hope it does_not come to that, but if it does, it will be a different situation IMO, compared to when cyclists are allowed on roads. The safety issues re: cycling on pavements in places like India, may remain the same in both cases, but taking away the road option does drastically change the situation. It throws us very basic issues like right to move around freely. Then I think many of us who otherwise oppose cycling on pavements, may have very different views (though not necessarily, & not everyone).

[Opendro]

Cyclists and walkers need very less space. 7 feet would be enough to accommodate a two way movements of both walkers and cyclists, specially in India. Of course, we also need to be disciplined if the space is that small. Like, we shouldn't stop in the middle or walk slowly in the middle unnecessarily.

Point I'm trying to say is that we don't need a 6 lane road to accommodate walkers and cyclists. It is not required to maintain bike lanes on each side of the highway. We just need one single road shared for both direction. But it is impractical to make one lane for walkers and another for cyclists. That can be done if there are enough users.

I ride on roads without shoulders. You would have read incorrectly. It is safe as long as the traffic density is low or as long as motor vehicle speeds are not more than cycle speeds. Roads like Mysore road are no longer safe (Anil will disagree though) - high speed, heavy traffic and no shoulder.

I'm not overly worried of any law as of now. As I mentioned, I will not stop riding even if they start fining me.

[berkeleydb]

I'll need to lookup the old thread; though you had said you don't ride on roads w/o shoulders, so I was wondering.

But if traffic speed etc. is a factor, I don't think any highway (w/o) in India would qualify as "safe", as traffic speeds would be much higher than that of the cycle. Even on many city roads, that is so.

-{db}.

[berkeleydb]

Open -- re: the highway/road shoulder aspect; see your first post on this thread --
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/bangalore-bikers/tJRvg7sFI4g

Maybe your comment was specific to that route. I read it as something generic.

-{db}.

[Opendro]

Right. Let me re-iterate... without shoulder is fine even for fast roads as long as traffic density is low. We should either have low density or low speed or wide shoulders.

[berkeleydb]

Unfortunately, traffic density can vary a lot due to various factors. So it's a tricky thing to factor into planning.

IMO, the only thing you can say in advance, with reasonable accuracy is, "traffic is mostly heavy on this route, so avoid it".

Otherwise, even if you have selected a road with low traffic conditions & no shoulder, it's likely you may need to deal with lot of traffic, due to some unexpected situation "on the day". In many cases, you will_not have an option to change your ride plans, & will have to ride in those conditions, regardless. Be prepared for that.

-{db}.

[santosh kumar]

I think, it makes more sense to call cycles as NPVs (non polluting vehicles) rather than NMVs. It would carry more weight to it.

ಮಾರ್ಚ್ 24, 2017 06:31 ಅಪರಾಹ್ನ ರಂದು, "berkeleydb" <dha...@gmail.com> ಅವರು ಬರೆದಿದ್ದಾರೆ:

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[Ali Poonawala]

+1 to Santosh !

Ali Poonawala

[Rishi Rao]

But does the government or the population in general really care about pollution? If the government was, there'd be greater subsidies or tax benefits to using cycles or electric bikes/cars. If the people were bothered, then they would demand for a change.

I guess I pulled off on a tangent here.

[murali hr]

agree..decade of promoting cycling..people dont care ..govt dont care..but we care..so the struggle continues..hence this group

[Ashok Kumar S]

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/31/no-move-to-ban-cycles-on-roads-says-gadkari-1588186.html

[Deepak Majipatil]

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/no-move-to-ban-cycles-on-roads-says-nitin-gadkari/609830/

[berkeleydb]

Good to see the clarification from the transport minister himself.

If cycling is_not being banned, what else remains under non-motorised vehicles? cycle rickshaws, hand pushed carts etc.?

-{db}.

[Opendro]

That is a nice update. He even elaborated with plans to include cycling in some projects. That is really a welcome response.

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/no-move-to-ban-cycles-on-roads-says-nitin-gadkari/609830/

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/31/no-move-to-ban-cycles-on-roads-says-gadkari-1588186.html

+1 to Santosh !

Ali Poonawala

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