LEL 2017 - London Edinburgh London - 1400 km Brevet

[Sayi RamaKrishna]

LEL is a 1400 km brevet, organised by Audax UK once for every four years to be completed in 116 h 40m. The brevet starts on 30 th July from Loughton.

Route passes through beautiful English side over rolling terrain and good amount of climbing and doubles back at Edinburgh,Scotland. ( with slight modification in south bound route)

Overall elevation for ride is around 11,000 m, More details about ride can be found in website.


This event is completely different from PBP in terms of support provided and many other rules. Though it is a self supported brevet, organisers provide food in every control, which are approximately spaced out for every 100 km.

The phenomenal growth of randonnuering in India has shown it's effect and nearly 60 people are participating. It is going to be colder and it is going to be rainy. Weather is going to be the real test for all our riders.

You will be able to track riders if you know their name or rider no in below link.

https://londonedinburghlondon.com/tracking-rider/

To be thoroughly entertained from 30 July- 4 th August, just visit below pages.
I won't hesitate to tell that it is tweets from Audax UK, during PBP-15 which made me register for LEL, even without completing a 600 brm then. :) 

https://twitter.com/LEL2017
https://www.facebook.com/groups/392520757598601/

Have fun, support the riders. I'm excited to ride and see velomobiles, recumbents, tandems, classic randonnuering setups and lot more.

Signing off

-Sayi Rama Krishna ( My rider no is P43)

[Venky]

All the best, Sai and all the riders participating this year! 

That is mighty big contingent and I'm sure the completion rate with be big too. It is a great way to see the country. :) 

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[Chidambaran Subramanian]

All the best folks.  I think this is one ride where it might be realistic to expect the entire Indian contingent to finish , (sans any issues of mechanical failures). There is a lot of time to complete. If you guys push hard and finish off as much as possible within the 1st 24 hours itt should be an easy paced ride from then on.

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[Jayaprakash E]

All the best guys!!! Wish to see big number of finishers. Enjoy your ride!

[Opendro]

All the best Sayi and others. 60 riders from India? That is huge. Wasn't there an entry criteria or quota like the PBP? If there was a quota, I cannot stop wondering if there were others who got disappointed.

Edinburgh reminds me of Danny's "Way back home" video. A beautiful place I suppose.

Enjoy madi.

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

No quota. Fastest finger fist

--

[berkeleydb]

All the best to all the riders, from India, & rest of the world. 60 riders from India is quite something.

Interesting to know that there are considerable "arrangements" along the way (every ~100kms), from the organisers.

That should allow riders to focus on riding & handling the road, traffic & weather conditions. And also have fun.

-{db}.

[Prashanth Chengi]

Truly a matter of great pride.for all of us, to see India being represented by such a large contingent of riders. I join the large contingent of folks wishing the risers the best of conditions and fortune. Very excited! 

/Prashanth 

[Aravind M S]

All t he very best for the Indian contingent. Ride strong and safe. 

[murali hr]

Hey all the best ~ 

regards

murali

[Sudhir Pai]

Wishing all amazing guys happy riding!

[berkeleydb]

Been reading tweets re: LEL2017 (started on Sun) -- https://twitter.com/search?q=lel2017&s=09

Very engaging. But didn't see anything on any Indian riders, except the actor promoting Rajnikanth 2.0 (the movie). (I thought commercial / sponsorship / branding etc. was_not allowed on ACP accredited rides.)

Any updates on the Indian riders?

-{db}.

[Prashanth M]

Satish Addanki is riding (Rider ID: V42)

--
Prashanth
http://payaniga.com

[berkeleydb]

Still have_not seen anything about the Indian riders, in any of the tweets (which continue to be quite engaging).

Looks like some riders have finished (including a female rider).

Anyone have any updates on the Indian riders?

-{db}.

[Jayaprakash E]

You can track them here
https://londonedinburghlondon.com/tracking-rider/

Few riders list is here
P43
P45
GG14
V42
B34
O43
O50

[Prashanth Chengi]

Sayi and Mohan are pushing to overcome a deficit of about 1.5 hrs, while Satish Addanki and Shravani Sen have to make up about 5 hrs and 9 hrs respectively. It's heartening to see that despite being low/out of time, they are pushing on; that requires a lot of resolve.  Kaviarasu is one of the few Indian riders with positive number of hours of time in hand right through all the controls. Massive respect to all the riders. It's also really sad that Ashok T had to pull out at Thirsk control (~400 km) due to hamstring issues. 

/Prashanth 

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

The hamstring issues probably happened because of his fall and scraping his knee

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Its great if somebody can track them and post some updates. Kinda having busy days at work and checking on Bliss Registrations and kids exams

[Prashanth Chengi]

Thanks for the jersey numbers; Yuvaraj doesn't seem to have started. Dipankar has scratched at Barnard Castle (474 km). Satish Addanki has reached the Thirsk control on his way back, about an hour ago. He's probably napping for a bit. Mohan has just reached Pocklington, the CP after Thirsk. Kavi has reached Pocklington a few hours earlier, and is probably going to be on the road again soon. Kavi remains the only Indian rider I know of, who is still maintaining positive 'time in hand', but I expect there would be others too, considering the size of the field. If anybody knows other jersey numbers, do add to the list. I got married over the weekend and am set to fly back today, so like Chiddu, I haven't been able to follow the riders as closely as I would have liked, but still keeping an eye on the progress!

/Prashanth

[Goutham Sridhar]

For Dipankar Paul its Showing DNF at Banard Castle ?? 

Timestamp	Event	Control	Distance (km)	Time in Hand
2017-07-31 11:29:59	DNF	Barnard Castle	474	3 hours 31 mins
2017-07-31 10:23:39	Arrival	Barnard Castle	474	4 hours 38 mins
2017-07-31 06:26:44	Departure	Thirsk	407	3 hours 54 mins
2017-07-31 05:19:09	Sleep Start	Thirsk	407	5 hours 2 mins
2017-07-31 05:08:32	Arrival	Thirsk	407	5 hours 13 mins
2017-07-31 01:14:49	Entered Start Pen	Pocklington	341	4 hours 30 mins
2017-07-30 18:14:17	Registration	London	0	0 hours 0 mins
2017-07-30 06:00:00	Departure	Pocklington	341	0 hours 0 mins

--

GOUTHAM B.S
9945940748

[Prashanth Chengi]

Yes, seems to have been a DNF.  Sad that Ashok and Dipankar, two very strong riders had to cut short their rides; No idea whether it was mechanical or injury related, in Dipankar's case.

On the good news front, Kavi is back on the road, as of fifteen minutes ago. His stop was just over two hours; he really seems to be a man on a mission. 

/Prashanth

[berkeleydb]

Current status (excuse the formatting) --

Sayi
Timestamp Event Control Distance(km) TimeInHand
2017-08-03 14:20:18 Departure Louth 1177 -4hours27mins

Mohan
Timestamp. Event. Control. Distance (km) Time in Hand.
2017-08-03 14:18:03. Departure. Louth. 1177. -4 hours 25 mins

Kavi
Timestamp. Event. Control. Distance (km). Time in Hand.
2017-08-03 19:50:28. Departure. Spalding. 1261. 1 hours 7 mins

Satish
Timestamp. Event. Control. Distance (km). Time in Hand
2017-08-03 04:30:12. Arrival. Thirsk. 1013. -6 hours 26 mins

-{db}.

[Opendro]

Thanks for the update.

Kavi had 3 hours in hand at 1393. Just another 47 km.

Mohan was running behind by almost 3 hours in the same control.

Sayi also crossed Spalding control though he will unlikely recover.

Satish seems to have quit - still shows to be at Thirsk.

[Venky]

Thanks for the updates! 

Any idea how many riders out of 59 Indians finished? 

Did Sayi, Satish etc make it? 

--

[Opendro]

10 of them finished. Out of that, we know two of them : Yuvaraj and Kavirasu - both are finishers of Bliss In The Hills.

Kushal Agarwal	India
Rajagopal Haridoss	India
Rajesh Krishnamaneni	India
Gautham Narne	India
Yuvaraj Palaniappan	India
Pradyumna Penmatcha	India
Gopalakrishna Pullela	India
Kaviarasu Rajappan	India
Bishen Singh	India
Ashish Thadani	India

Source https://londonedinburghlondon.com/provisional-finish-list/

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[Aravind M S]

Mohan also finished in time, isn't it?

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[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Just 10 out of 59? That is a low number

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[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Not to disrespect the finishers or the ones who could not make it. There will be cases like Ashok who had to backout due to an injury,but 10/59 as a group is not very encouraging. 

[Prashanth Chengi]

Mohan and Sayi also finished, but outside the time I think. I was tracking both of them, and they were only a couple of hours off the limit most of the time, which is both agonizing and encouraging at the same time. Mohan, one must not forget, did this on a heavy Trek mountain bike. If he'd ridden on a road bike, he would surely have been able to have made it within time. I've tried to tell him to overcome his over reliance on mountain bikes, but to no avail; he handicaps himself with his bike choice, but is one of the fittest riders around.

Chiddu, regarding the low number of finishes, that must not really be seen as discouraging; if anything, it would have shown a lot of riders what real Audax courses are like; Barring Bliss in the Hills, and a couple of other brevets, many in India are dead flat, and don't even need much of navigation skills (Go on NH4 for 300 km, take U-turn and ride 300 km etc).  Unfortunately, we will hear very few accounts of people who participated, so others who didn't ride will not learn much. I will try and encourage all the riders I know to try and put down their accounts and share it here, so as to help others.  I think the challenges are the following (I hope Sayi/Ashok can review/add to the list)

1. Elevation profile: Most brevets in India simply don't provide the climbs. Rides like Anchetty 200, Bliss etc are exceptions, but many, many brevets, including 600s and 1000s are chapati flat.  I won't name it, but I came across a 600 brevet in India, with ~600 m elevation difference, and that's not an exception.
2. Navigation: I've heard of many riders from India, using only a cue sheet and distance counter, to navigate on brevets. This may work in scenarios where there are no turns for tens and hundreds of kilometers. We've also come across instances of people doing lots of extra km when this method has failed. In European brevets, the managers take pride in compiling the most beautiful route, and the focus is not at all on making a straight course. If people don't have experience using paper maps or GPSs for navigation, things will be hard.
3. Temperature: Low temperatures can be quite hard to get used to. If one is not experienced, it can be morale sapping. I read on fb that Sayi was thinking whether to stop or go, as the temperature was 12 degrees. If one has to make stops in cold weather, we have to keep it as short as possible, as the body loses more temperature when we stop, and continuing can be very hard. On the other hand, the best thing to do in cold weather is to keep pushing, as that warms us up quite well.
4. Loadout: Many people carry way more gear than what is required. The number 1440 km must have sounded very intimidating, and people were probably lugging way more stuff than necessary.  Those who ride light are at a very significant advantage.

We really need more people to sample events like Bliss, PBP, LEL etc in addition to BRMs, and we also need brevet managers in India to seriously rethink their rides. 

/Prashanth

[Jagannath Moorthy]

It will also be interesting to hear why people chose to participate in events like LEL where the financial outlay is huge compared to something like BITH. I wonder if it is just the safety element that prevents more people from participating in our local events

[Sandeep]

> We really need more people to sample events like Bliss, PBP, LEL etc in addition to BRMs, and we also need brevet managers in India to seriously rethink their rides. 

This takes time: the first '11-12 season of brevets in Bangalore were also out and back routes on highways. Anchetty 200 and other brevets with more climbing were added by IBN the next year as a step up and to get riders a step closer to doing climbing routes. Bliss in 2014 was the perfect time to up the challenge.

[suman paul]

I guess there is a factor which plays a major role - 'Legacy'. All these reputed events have one thing in common which is their well established legacy built over a century. Irrespective of the magnitude, the glory of being part of that legacy is quite magnetic. Indian cycling events, be it shorter / longer / easy / tough endurance or racing need to work with a long term vision with a clear understanding of testing the time generation after generation. It is tough but doable. 

thank you & regards

suman

+ 91   9886300685

[Prashanth Chengi]

Very well stated, Suman.  There was a quote from Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa, that comes to the mind; when asked why people go to temples, when God is supposedly everywhere, he said "Where the foreheads of thousands of people touches the ground, God is certain to appear at least once." 
When one goes to the start point of LEL, Vatternrundan, or Trans Am, there is the unmistakable sense of energy in the air, and you feel as if you are on hallowed grounds.

Rides like Bliss are also in the same league, but probably need to be promoted a bit more. That said, I'll have to point out that the Boys Town climb in Bliss is disgusting, as it's neither sportive nor safe. It's downright unsafe to ride in a zig-zag fashion, as trucks roll down fast on that extremely narrow stretch. It's sections like that which undermine the whole ride. You'll not find such sections in any popular international ride.  Despite all that, I would still want to do the ride again, so yes, there's something very, very special about Bliss also.

/Prashanth

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Rides like Bliss are also in the same league, but probably need to be promoted a bit more. That said, I'll have to point out that the Boys Town climb in Bliss is disgusting, as it's neither sportive nor safe. It's downright unsafe to ride in a zig-zag fashion, as trucks roll down fast on that extremely narrow stretch. It's sections like that which undermine the whole ride. You'll not find such sections in any popular international ride.  Despite all that, I would still want to do the ride again, so yes, there's something very, very special about Bliss also.

Point taken Prashanth,  unfortunately there are only 2 alternative routes to Wayanad in the vicinity. The other one via Periya, is probably the best, going through a very beautiful rainforest, but unfortunately 2 years in succession, nobody went up on that stretch during the daytime. year 1, the visibility was actually zero.
And to add some spice, there is a section frequented by elephants on a downhill section with pretty bad roads. When it rains, the potholes fill up with water, you can't make out the depth.  
The Boystown section goes through villages, if  you are in serious trouble, the locals will help you. On the other route , for 15km it is just forest. And the climb is equally draining.

[Sayi RamaKrishna]

Once again it is very nice to have such a helpful discussion going on. 

I agree with all the points discussed by Prasanth. ( Not sure where you have read whether I want to continue or not ! . I was never in such a situation).

First let me discuss my experience briefly. I used ride with gps for navigation. Downloaded maps offline and have put a single earphone. So was always on track with navigation.

The overall elevation started for ride is around 11,000 m. There are some flat sections as seen in gps profiles.... but when the ride began..

It is a completely rolling terrain. Terrain as shown by Opendro once in a picture. Each climb is a mini hill. Lot of care has been taken by organisers to choose the country side for all the route,. We touched A routes ( State highways ) very rarely. Being lived in Chennai and now in Hyderabd, I'm very sure that I will not be able to adapt to these temperatures very easily. So took enough ( or more than enough) cold gear with me. Day temperatures never seemed to cross 18 and nights were very cold. Though I was fine wearing just a t shirt before event, during ride nights were colder. Myself and Mohan were good till 3 rd control ( Louth 240 Km). 

Opinions differed- I wanted to have a nap for couple of hours, he wanted to ride. I agreed with him to move on, thinking to push till first 24 hours atleast, It turned out to be very costly for me. The cold air touching with face put us to sleep very soon. But we continued same way. Dark surrounding all around, no humans, no shops and no chai shops to be awake, Very long day is only bit rescue. 

Our buffer time reduced as ride progressed. Climbs turned out more severe. though there was no major climbs, they will appear continuously. One need all the patience in life to move on. It was fun riding in Howardian hills, Scotland welcomed us with cold temperature and a rain. We reached Ediburgh just in time. An 1h 40 m was wasted ( Or not ?) in taking bath etc. It is really very cozy in controls. You can have delicious food served fresh and hot. ( If you are ok with any taste). It became mandatory 40 min break in every control as you cant have food anywhere in middle usually.

So when we started back from Edinburgh, it was really terrible. Temperature might be below 5C. Climbing is ok, but while descending, we literally went through hell. Organisers in next control  (Innerleithen, 760 km) were ready with rugs. he he .  We missed it by small target I guess.

It was like Kalpetta control. If we take rest, we are out of ride, Mohan was strong and was not bothered about anything else except reaching end in time. i'm more concerned about being safe and enjoying ride. However, we started. More hellish experience. I cursed myself for agreeing to ride in such cold. I wore 5 layers. Two merino wool base layers, a jersey, light weight rain jacket and rain jacket over them. Mohan was fine with just a merino base layer. More delays due to slow riding, steep ascents and descents. 

Due to sleeplessness, our moving average was decreased and overall average us much decreased. We had 27 hours for last 400. We thought , we can make it to end within time as it is just a 400. 

Route was against us. Headwinds started. These are not normal headwinds, but the ones which make you wonder why did you even started cycling in first place. That combined with climbs, is more hell. Why did I even sign up for LEL ?! We had a hope when we reached Louth. We pushed till Spalding. We were drained to core.

Now one can notice what makes Mohan very special. I went to rest room, had food etc and got ready with layers again etc., but Mohan, came in took a redbull and continued for next point.That is 4th night and I got only 5-6 hours of sleep overall. I couldn't control any longer. i slept on platform using the emergency blanket. When I woke up, my navigation didn't work properly. I tagged with a chineese rider for sometime and then managed a very sleepy tide till St.Ives, the last but one control. I was almost 5 hours late there. 

Headwinds and climbs never backed off. I struggled to continue, but went on. The 1388 km is on a hill ! ( I cursed organiser and remembered Chiddu throughout the ride ). Even the last 50 km took me 4 hours to ride, Finally I made it in 123 or 124 hours.They will honour everyone who finished course with a medal.

I can't comment about rest of DNF's from India, but points mentioned by Prasanth stand very valid. We need to get habituated to routes with gps, but sadly our navigation netwrok is not so great. For instance, I used Osmand app in India, where I struggled to find my way, but same in UK is perfect. 

The riders who finished are very strong I can say. Those who got rest, were strong in further sections. Those who ignored rest, suffered. I have to improve my speed.

Signing off now..

Sayi

[Sayi RamaKrishna]

I can also add that those who started early were lucky. Someone from afternoon start, if they were late by 4 hours were not allowed to continue further. My start time is 10.15 am. 

[Opendro]

Don't worry about the official DNF. You rode your best under the given circumstances. Kudos to you.

You cursed yourself why you entered into this event and yet you will come back to many such events... that is what we are :-) We always learn and improve.

[Opendro]

While I agree with both of you about the special feeling of being a part in legacy events, I find it difficult to understand people who ignore the temple next lane and go only to the Tirupati temple.

I have seen many people who see Switzerland first before even seeing the attractions in their own state, leave alone the country. I think, it has got to do with both money as well as "show-off" value. Please don't take it negatively. "Show-off" is also a value addition which we all try to do at some point, or may be more often than we think. We value the admiration and appreciation from others. We are hardwired even though we may deny it.

In a way, I'm saying that there is nothing wrong in it if you have the time and money - choice is individual :-)

[Prashanth Chengi]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Sayi RamaKrishna <sayi.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with all the points discussed by Prasanth. ( Not sure where you have read whether I want to continue or not ! . I was never in such a situation).

I didn't mean you wanted to quit. I meant you were wondering whether to continue riding or to take a break, as you seemed concerned about the temperature. It was your own post on FB, where you said this:

​

First let me discuss my experience briefly. I used ride with gps for navigation. Downloaded maps offline and have put a single earphone. So was always on track with navigation.

Opinions differed- I wanted to have a nap for couple of hours, he wanted to ride. I agreed with him to move on, thinking to push till first 24 hours atleast, It turned out to be very costly for me. The cold air touching with face put us to sleep very soon. But we continued same way. Dark surrounding all around, no humans, no shops and no chai shops to be awake, Very long day is only bit rescue. 

Sleep is one of the things which is very challenging to manage, when riding with others. You tend to need to sleep when your body demands it, and syncing it with another rider or riders' needs gets challenging. It's frustrating when you have to stop when you want to keep going, when the other rider wants to stop, and vice-versa. It helps to discuss sleep strategy earlier, so you can plan and stop when you both feel it's a good idea.  

Our buffer time reduced as ride progressed. Climbs turned out more severe. though there was no major climbs, they will appear continuously. One need all the patience in life to move on. It was fun riding in Howardian hills, Scotland welcomed us with cold temperature and a rain. We reached Ediburgh just in time. An 1h 40 m was wasted ( Or not ?) in taking bath etc. It is really very cozy in controls. You can have delicious food served fresh and hot. ( If you are ok with any taste). It became mandatory 40 min break in every control as you cant have food anywhere in middle usually.

I guess the hot food was quite important for the morale also, but it must have been quite challenging to keep the stop short and resume the ride, particularly when the temperatures outside were low.

 

So when we started back from Edinburgh, it was really terrible. Temperature might be below 5C. Climbing is ok, but while descending, we literally went through hell. Organisers in next control  (Innerleithen, 760 km) were ready with rugs. he he .  We missed it by small target I guess.

Apart from the clothes, it's very important to have proper ear insulation, like with a good pair of ear muffs. The ear muffs not only keep the ears warm, but also help in reducing the whine of the wind, which can get very annoying, particularly when you are descending. 

It was like Kalpetta control. If we take rest, we are out of ride, Mohan was strong and was not bothered about anything else except reaching end in time. i'm more concerned about being safe and enjoying ride. However, we started. More hellish experience. I cursed myself for agreeing to ride in such cold. I wore 5 layers. Two merino wool base layers, a jersey, light weight rain jacket and rain jacket over them. Mohan was fine with just a merino base layer. More delays due to slow riding, steep ascents and descents. 

You were wearing too many layers; when you have too many layers and are riding hard, you start to perspire, and this perspiration has nowhere to go, so it stays against your skin. This makes you feel cold, and when you slow down, you start to feel colder, and you would want to pull on another layer. It is this perspiration that makes you feel miserable, when you are going downhill. A single layer was indeed the best idea, but it seems counter-intuitive. You will indeed feel cold initially, but when you start rolling, you'll start building body heat, and you'll no longer feel cold. The single layer will mean that any perspiration will get wicked away from your body, keeping you dry. 

Headwinds and climbs never backed off. I struggled to continue, but went on. The 1388 km is on a hill ! ( I cursed organiser and remembered Chiddu throughout the ride ). Even the last 50 km took me 4 hours to ride, Finally I made it in 123 or 124 hours.They will honour everyone who finished course with a medal.

Very happy that you were able to keep your mind focused and make it across the finish-line. It's very inspirational.

We need to get habituated to routes with gps, but sadly our navigation netwrok is not so great. For instance, I used Osmand app in India, where I struggled to find my way, but same in UK is perfect. 

If you are going to do ultra distance rides, phone GPS and apps just won't cut it. It might work 75-85% of the time, but that's not enough. A failure to lock on to the satellites at a crucial point might mean you are screwed. Use a dedicated GPS, equipped with openstreetmaps. It's totally worth it. Using it on local rides will give you confidence  and familiarity with the device, which will be crucial, when you set off on a really big ride. A side note is that it's important to give yourself time to familiarize yourself with all your equipment; don't ever go into a big ride with untested equipment. I took an untested saddlebag to TABR, and paid for my mistake very dearly.

The riders who finished are very strong I can say. Those who got rest, were strong in further sections. Those who ignored rest, suffered. I have to improve my speed.

Signing off now..

Sayi

Lovely account, Sayi, and very inspiring. All the very best with your future endeavors! 

/Prashanth

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Normally what I do for insulation is to wear 3-4 vests (singlet/banian/ganji). This worked well for me when I was cycling down Ooty and it was raining during 2010 TFN. 

I've never cycled in Europe or US when it is very cold, But I have cycled in temperatures around 10-12 deg when it rains, but not long distances. 

Even for BITH 2015, I rode without any rain protection. I just keep riding and count on my body heat to keep me warm. Not sure whether this will work in cold climates. I have to wait for an opportunity to test it.

[Prashanth Chengi]

In the cold, the critical areas are ears, hands, and feet. If you wear good earmuffs, warm gloves, and overshoes (which are generally used in the rain, but offer excellent thermal insulation), you are pretty much covered. I have worn a thin synthetic T-shirt (the kind that wicks away sweat), a biking jersey on top of that, and a BTwin High Visibility Vest (which cost me 499 INR I think), and have biked in upto -5°C, in dry conditions, for as long as 5 hours. In rain, I simply add the rain jacket under the high-vis vest, and it feels even warmer, without compromising my visibility. I also wear a sort of beanie cap (the kind of cloth you can twist into multiple kinds of headgear; this too, I bought in Decathlon). The gloves are really high quality gloves, rated for below freezing weather, which I bought in Sweden. I find that hands, ears, and scalp are where you lose a lot of body heat quickly, and if you adequately cover up these parts, you'll be ok.  I have suffered a lot in night times, when I didn't have overshoes, as biking shoes permit cold air to enter the shoe, leading to numb toes. I carry three kinds of gloves, and sometimes four ; When temperatures are higher than 12 °C, I use cut-aways, which expose my fingers, as it's most comfortable, and also convenient for reaching into back-pockets and retrieving stuff without stopping. In temperatures below 11 ° C, I use full finger light GoreTex gloves which offer protection against winds (it's called WindStopper). When temperature drops below 0° C, I switch to the gloves with the highest thermal rating. When it rains, I use neoprene gloves which stay warm, even when wet.  The neoprene and the super-warm gloves will very quickly become sweat-soaked and uncomfortable, if used in dry conditions or when temperature is higher than 5° C, so it's important to wear the right kind of gloves.

The exact temperature thresholds will definitely vary from person to person, but the basic premise is the same; carry appropriate gloves, overshoes, an ultra light rain jacket that can serve as an additional layer, ear-muffs, a beanie, and a high-visibility vest, and you are pretty much good to go. 

Goggles that don't fog up can also prove to be very useful.

Keeping the number of layers low means you won't have to waste time putting them on and removing them when temperature changes. 

/Prashanth

[Jayaprakash E]

Congrats Sayi!!! Kudos to you.

[Venky]

Impressive show despite not being able to make it in time, Sayi!

Time and again you have proved that you have the endurance. As you have mentioned, working on your speed will enable you to get more rest without having to race against the clock of cut-off times. All the best for your future endeavours.

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Cheers,
Venky
bvcoaching.in

[berkeleydb]

Sayi -- congrats on the great ride, nevermind the final DNF result. (Though it will understandably bear on your mind.)

Does looks like rides like LEL are well within your capability, it is getting familiarity with cold conditions that might need to be addressed. Also, ridi g with another rider can be helpful as well as tricky. The company would be a big moral support. Plus I believe brevet rules allow people to ride together to get aero benefits, to that would also be an advantage.

But to be able to take a rest/sleep break when needed, can get tricky, as that csn be very rider specific, even if overall the riders are well matched in their physical conditioning.

I see various ride reports saying that some riders stopped to take a break while other riders went ahead, & later the riders met up again at some point (without any intent to wait for each other).

So that might have also been a factor in your ride, since you were trying to keep riding with Mohan. Getting rest/sleep at the right time, can really help maintain a good overall average, rather than trying to keep pushing beyond a certain point of fatigue. Though it's for each individual to know what the thresholds are for them.

Re: Mohan's MTB ride -- ya, he will be best placed to say why he is so particular about riding such long distances on an MTB, when road surface is also quite good. A decent road bike will make a big difference on various fronts -- bike weight, rolling resistance & aero asoects of slim tyres, option for aero riding position on drop bars, and also ability of body to transfer more power to the bike, by engaging the core muscles a lot more. Mohan will probably complete such rides with 10-20% time to spare, if he uses a road bike. (even an entry to mid level road bike, with say 28-32c tyres would make a big difference.)

-{db}.

[Sayi RamaKrishna]

Thanks Venky and Jaya Prakash.

Your post about layering is quite informative Prashanth. I did follow that, except some things are different.

Sayi -- congrats on the great ride, nevermind the final DNF result.  (Though it will understandably bear on your mind.)

Does looks like rides like LEL are well within your capability, it is getting familiarity with cold conditions that might need to be addressed.  Also, ridi g with another rider can be helpful as well as tricky.  The company would be a big moral support.  Plus I believe brevet rules allow people to ride together to get aero benefits, to that would also be an advantage.

But to be able to take a rest/sleep break when needed, can get tricky, as that csn be very rider specific, even if overall the riders are well matched in their physical conditioning.

I see various ride reports saying that some riders stopped to take a break while other riders went ahead, & later the riders met up again at some point (without any intent to wait for each other).

So that might have also been a factor in your ride, since you were trying to keep riding with Mohan.  Getting rest/sleep at the right time, can really help maintain a good overall average, rather than trying to keep pushing beyond a certain point of fatigue.  Though it's for each individual to know what the thresholds are for them.

Thank you.
Yeah, I could have done that, staying behind and catching up with him later, but his gps was not functioning correctly, so we had to ride together. Anyway, it happened , all my thoughts are now about not to repeat same mistakes in Bliss. We both might attempt it.  

 

Re: Mohan's MTB ride -- ya, he will be best placed to say why he is so particular about riding such long distances on an MTB, when road surface is also quite good.   A decent road bike will make a big difference on various fronts -- bike weight, rolling resistance & aero asoects of slim tyres, option for aero riding position on drop bars, and also ability of body to transfer more power to the bike, by engaging the core muscles a lot more.  Mohan will probably complete such rides with 10-20% time to spare, if he uses a road bike.  (even an entry to mid level road bike, with say 28-32c tyres would make a big difference.)

Yeah, only he should be able to answer that question about his passion to ride an MTB, irrespective of road surfaces. 
However, the quality of British roads are not that great.  I didn't miss Indian roads at anypoint of time minus our chaotic traffic.

[Mohan Subramanyam]

Dear All,

 Thank you all the support & warm wishes from this group, I am not very active on this forum more on Fb. Took time to run through the LEL post after Sayi informed. Great to see lot of discussion especially on my MTB bike. I am yet to pen down my LEL2017 experience being Lazy. With due respect to all for your suggestions, views, advice most of them are experienced and Techno geeks on the cycling platform.

Please find below my analysis of LEL and why I ride MTB, and the pbp2019 fever has already started.

When I bought a bicycle way back in 2010 on my 40th Birthday did not have much knowledge on MTB, Hybrid or Roadie. It was initially for office commute and short weekend rides hence BOTS suggested the Trek 3700, which is 7 years old now with 50000km mileage. Later converted to Brevets in 2013 and onto long distance endurance cycling.

Why I still ride the MTB?

I am emotionally attached to my MTB over the years, it is tried and trusted. I am comfortable and able to perform equivalent and better at times than other Roadies. Like some people ride Fixie, Tandem, recumbent, Tricycles etc at major events. I ride MTB.

Will I still continue to ride MTB for major long distance endurance events?

Yes for now, will I change to roadie. I myself do not have an answer for this. Might be someday, never know when.

If I had used roadie in LEL, could I have completed in time?

NO, LEL and other long distance endurance rides are more of strategy, planning logistics, terrain, weather, navigation which accounts to 70% of the ride. The bike, rider mental & physical strength I believe is only 30%. Purely my understanding.

Analysis of LEL2017.

The decision not to sleep @ Louth, the 1st day and continue which later hit us (Sayi) hard in early morning with sleep. I am not sure if it was right or wrong decision and would have changed the course overtime on the LEL trail.

I wanted to ride the 1st two nights without sleep and  reach Edingburgh with 45-50 hrs so we have enough buffer for return.

Navigation is the biggest challenge, with the best of the gramin and other GPS devices everyone had their own story. Lucky for us the ridewithgps worked for most time and I had to piggy back Sayi since phone used to go into sleep mode often or hang since I was running both apps strava & ridewithgps with data mode off.

Weather is the next big challenge, we can prepare for cold & rain but nothing much we can do with headwinds. The winds were  brutal on the last day when we had 350 kms to the finish. We had atleast 10 riders from India who DNF at 1200 or 1300 km due exhaustion and sleep deprivation. Else including me & other late finishers with these 10 riders who DNF could have made it to the finish on time.

Even the local UK riders informed this was one of the hardest weathers they had seen on LEL over the years.

After 408 Km we still had 5 hrs buffer, but when we left the CP it reduced to 1.5 hrs we were tired and had hit the bed at Thirsk.

The Yad moss climb on the return from Brompton to Bernard Castle was tough with continuous rain for 3hrs and winds. 80 kms took 6 hrs.

Spalding - St-Ives is the only flat strech around 60Kms  took 5 hours due to  heavy headwinds in the night. At this point I had 10 hrs and 180km to finish leaving alone break times which was doable. 

After 1317Km  covered next 71km in 4 hrs, thanks to the riders from Brazil whom I tagged along it was a non stop ride of 50Kms to Great Easton. The fastest non stop long ride in my career avg around 17.75 km. Thanks to them they pulled me along if I had stopped I could have lost them, then  wait for somebody else or keep meddling with the phone for navigation.

The last 48Km again tagged along with 2 riders from Greece who were kind enough to keep checking on me except for the last 10 Kms which  covered in 3:30 hrs.

It is not that me and Sayi were always riding together for the 1200kms most of the time he would go further or me and would ensure we meet at the CP's. At the control we used to leave together. Sayi even offered me his phone and asked me to continue at Thirsk  (407km). I held onto him so it would be helpful to both of us riding in the nights in unknown territory.

There were riders who were riding high end roadie carbon bikes with the best of wheels  completed with just 3-4 hrs of finish time, most of them could not complete too. It is not just the bike as I mentioned earlier in the post.

The support from the organisers at the CP's was super awesome, but 2 groups from India had their own support vehicles.

It was a wonderful experience and lot of leanings, no regrets  we finished late. Glad we completed the course. It would have been greater if we had crossed the finish line at the same time.

I will post my ride experience once it is completed. Trust the above will be of some help to riders in the group. 

Thanks & Rgds

Mohan 

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Mohan & others,

We should have some really good riders riding Bliss this year on MTBs.

[berkeleydb]

Great post, Mohan. Thanks for sharing.

Re: the MTB via road bike aspect -- it's not that road bike makes everything else moot. Riders fitness, handling of conditions, etc. still matters. But even a fairly basic road bike, will be ~10-20% more efficient IMO, compared to an MTB, on fair-good roads. The slightly lower weight, lighter & thinner rims/tyres, etc. make it a more efficient ride. Plus wrt headwinds, the thinner tyres seem to create much less resistance. (Not to mention that you can also go to aero riding position on the drop bars, & reduce wind resustance further.)

As the rides get longer, these things add up. If a rider is so fit, that they are able to complete a ride like LEL on an MTB, that's great. But to demonstrate the better efficiency of road bikes vs MTBs, one just needs to look at the the time one needs to cover certain number of kms, within certain amount of time. (The more fit a rider, the longer the distance we may need to look at, before the difference becomes significant.) The difference will show up w/o doubt, IMO.

Hats/helmets off to you, that in your estimation, you feel you can complete the the LEL on an MTB. Says a lot about your fitness level.

-{db}.

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

On normal roads with decent roll, the roadbike would be on average 4mph faster on flats and uphills. This is a rough rule of thumb that I believe in

Regards

Chiddu

[Opendro]

I'm just thinking out loud. Best way to verify would be to find a slope (preferably neutral wind or it should be under consistent wind). Make both the bikes same weight (with some loads if required). Roll from a slope and measure the speed at some point at the bottom or simply check how long each one rolls till it stopped by itself.

This is just for academic purpose, not to discourage MTB riders just because it is slower than a road bike.

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[Narayan R]

Something similar was published at Bicycle compass : https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/bicycle-quarterly-performance-of-tires/

These were specific to Tires.

But test set up would remain the similar.

With Regards,

R Narayan

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[berkeleydb]

Just to add one more point to my earlier post -- a road bike geometry also engages the core muscles a lot more. So I think one is able to transfer more power (assuming one has the capacity), to the bike.

When I first started riding my touring bike (road bike like geometry, but much less aggressive), I immediately felt the difference in how much more my core muscles were engaging, compared to ealier when I was riding an MTB (for ~3yrs). And again (~4yrs later), when I started riding a road bike, I felt the core muscles engage even more.

So the switch from MTB to road, wrt core muscles being engaged, can be quite big.

-{db}.

[Sayi RamaKrishna]

Amidst this ongoing MTB,roadie discussion, here is my complete LEL blog.

Part-1:

https://pathsandspokes.wordpress.com/2017/09/05/lel-2017-london-edinburgh-london-part-1-northbound/

Part-2 :
https://pathsandspokes.wordpress.com/2017/09/05/lel-2017-london-edinburgh-london-part-2-southbound

[murali hr]

great job guys ~

pls share your mobile phone nos - want to speak to you - send private mail;

murali