My first accident on bike

[Rajat Malhotra]

Hello Bikers,

I have been in this group for almost a year now and have mostly been a silent member reading and getting gyan :-) Wanted to share my first accident on bike...

I commute to office by bicycle now for a bit more than a year about 7km one way and try to do at-least 4 days a week. Have a Schwinn Searcher 2011 and am pretty happy with it. Last week I was going back to home from office in the evening about 6PM. I usually avoid main roads and travel in the by-lanes. This one, between jivan bhima nagar and tippasandra is a sloping one, and I was going with the slope so was in quite a bit of speed. There were couple of men standing on the side of the road talking and suddenly a small girl about 6 years ran from behind them across the road and seeing me she just stood there in the middle of the road in terror. I had to break as hard as I could and as soon as I did that the bike toppled over and I came down hard on my shoulder and knee. Luckily the girl was still at some distance from me and was saved. I always wear helmet so no injuries to head. Knee and shoulder took major impact and there were quite a few bruises on shoulder, hand and knee. I sat down there in pain when the parents of the girl and neighbours cam there and helped me with some water. Not sure how long I sat there as I was getting blank, but after some time I gained some power and poured water over my head and became full conscious again. Stood up and checked the bike, nothing major except some scratches on the handle and the glass top of the shifters indicator broken. Even though the pain was there in left knee I still cycled all the way to my home about 3 kms from there trying not to exert the left knee. Luckily no major injuries were there and now I'm back to cycling. 

But the main reason I wanted to share this story is to get insights from some of you gurus as to why did the cycle topple. I know that CG of cycle is pretty high but I must not be going above 30 - 35 and I used both breaks. Is that incorrect way of breaking? Should I have used only the rear breaks, but then rear ones are not so effective in breaking hard. I have lockable front suspension that I do not use and have it locked always since I read on this forum that it helps in saving some momentum. But I guess suspension would have helped in this case?

How can one avoid toppling even while breaking hard at high speeds? Please share your thoughts as I guess newbies and people like me who only travel small distances and do not have much experience will benefit from the discussion.

Regards,
Rajat

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[Chethu Gowda]

Its a good practice to use both front and rear breaks.. but one should apply the rear break first n den d front one.. if not toppling of the bike is very expected if u apply d front break.. and definitely the suspension will help u in this case.. What I usually do when I have to apply the break drastically is, apply both breaks (again first the rear n den the front) in form of dots (like hold-release-hold-release-hold and it must be done faster ) this would avoid the bike's wheel from getting locked and from skidding..

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[Mayank Kamthan]

looks like we need ABS in bikes as well!!! ;) 

hope your injuries have healed and ride safe! :) 

Mayank Kamthan

[muralika...@yahoo.com]

+1

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from !DEA

---

From: Chethu Gowda <chetha...@gmail.com>

Sender: bangalor...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:14:02 +0530

To: Rajat Malhotra<rajatm...@gmail.com>

Cc: Bangalore Bikers Club<bangalor...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [BBC] My first accident on bike

[Satya Balakrishnan]

Chethu,

What you say is called as Cadence Braking .. Usually, this is the quickest and safest way to stop cars when you are driving on wet / snowy roads. If you completely brake, then the wheel rotation stops and the wheel just skids on the wet surface and looses traction and just goes haywire. To prevent this, you would do cadence braking or regular braking if your car has ABS ...

I am not sure if this will prevent a cycle from toppling on a dry road condition .... I myself toppled in the Turahalli range and my guess is because I applied front brakes immediately and the back brakes a little later causing the cycle to topple ...

Satya

[Vasu]

Hi,

 

Keep in mind that all sorts of acrobatics like:

 

a) Stoppie,

b) Wheelie

c) Endo

d) Skidding

 

etc...

 

is done when the speed of the front wheel & rear wheel is different. If you can maintain same speed in both wheels you are more stable. This applies to bikes and motorbikes.

 

Also keep in mind that the rear brake only slows you down. Actual stopping is done by the front brake. However, the trick is to maintain same speed in both wheels while braking.

 

You might be a right hand person and your right brake might be the front one. Since the right hand is your predominant hand you might have squeezed the lever a tad too hard causing you to topple.

 

You might want to practice braking hard with both your right and left hands together. In the situation what you describe, this knowledge will not kick in on time so you gotta practice it before hand so that in extreme cases your training involuntarily takes over your conscious thinking.

 

On your rides if  you see an empty stretch of road do practice sudden braking until you internalize the theory.

 

Another thing you could have done is twisted your hip so that your rear wheel would have skidded a bit and stopped. This requires more control on the bike though.

 

V

[Rajat Malhotra]

Interesting... I'm trying to recollect hard and I think I might have just done that (first front breaks and then rear). I'm a leftie and left is front breaks, so unconsciously I might have first used front breaks and then rear.

Do you think it makes sense to change left breaks to rear or should that be left as it is and I should practice the other way instead? I guess it is better to change the breaks and let my natural instincts work?

Also I'm pretty aware how ABS or cadence breaking works but that would not have helped here as that is mainly to prevent skidding as it maintains the grip on the road.

Regards,
Rajat

[Ashwatha Matthur]

Re why the bike toppled in the first place, this sounds like a classic "over the bars" crash. When you brake hard, you need to brace your arms against the deceleration. If you don't, the bike stops but your body keeps moving. The upper body first flies over the handlebars, and then the thighs bump against the handlebars. It is this "bump" that causes the bike to topple; half of your body would have already gone over the handlebars by then, so the bike would not be loaded and hence easy to topple.

From the master: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

[deepakvrao]

Actually this is wrong.

For most effective stopping power ONLY front brakes is what should be used. It is effective control of the front brakes that will prevent a over the bar topple. Adding rear braking is of no value at all for hard braking. Rear brakes is for scrubbing speed, and for use when you are on sand, gravel or wet roads.

On Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:14:02 PM UTC+5:30, chethu gowda wrote:

[deepakvrao]

Vasu,

Like I said in previous post, for hardest braking it is front brake, and adding rear brake has no value.

[deepakvrao]

Should have clarified, that to practice hard braking, you should get into the habit of braking as hard as you can on the front till the rear wheel JUST starts to lift off. Will find the link and post later.

[deepakvrao]

If you brake as hard as safely possible with the front, the rear wheel no longer has any traction on the tarmac, so adding rear brakes will be of no additional value. 

Sheesh, should have put it all in one post. Sorry guys.

On Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:42:46 PM UTC+5:30, Vasu wrote:

[Chethu Gowda]

Hi deepakvrao,

I dont think u have tried a hard breaking with ur "applying only front break" logic.. like vasu said its used only for doin some stunts.. in this case its a stoppie.. and if d person doesn kno to do the stoppie (I mean to control d bike only with front break) and apply only front break he will be flying in air off d bike..

[Rajat Malhotra]

Thanks Ashwatha,

This is a fantastic read and I recommend all to read this http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

It actually explains everything, it makes perfect sense. I guess I did got panicky and grabbed both the breaks as hard as I could and in the process lost control over myself. I will start practising the front break only technique as Sir Ji (Sheldon Brown) has so clearly explained.

Regards,
Rajat

[Deepak Rao]

That's why I said you need to learn how to do it. I use front brake [it's brake and not break] all the time except in conditions where you might skid.

[deepakvrao]

Yes, that was the link I was looking to post.

[Rajat Malhotra]

LOL... of course. I need to break the habit of using brake where I have been using break :-)

[RT]

Thank you for adding that caveat Deepak ('except in conditions where you might skid') :)

I must further qualify this. In my experience both on a motorcycle and a bicycle, on and offroad, you need to pick when to rely on your front brake and when to stay clear of it. 

Use primarily your front brake when

1) Travelling in a straight line: If you're even at a slight angle, you risk your front wheel going out from under

2) Not on an decline: With your rear wheel higher than your front and your weight forward, you will go endo

3) You have good grip and there is nothing that will make you slide (water, oil, loose gravel, sand)

If any one of these conditions is not met, I would avoid my front and concentrate on my rear for a very simple reason - if your front wheel washes, there is simply NO way to recover and you will hit the ground without time to react (endo if you're on a decline). If your rear wheel skids on the other hand, you're always in with a chance of controlling your skid. And if you find the rear sliding out from under you, you can still correct it by putting one foot down. When your front goes down, you have no chance whatsoever. 

Every single fall I've taken - motorbike, cycle, on-road, off-road, downhill, on a curve, on a straight, on a wet road, etc has been a result of my front wheel going out from under me. This is not to say that my rear wheel never skids. It does. But I can always make the save (and have). 

[Nalla P Konar]

How come nobody talked about body position to counter balance the
Center of Gravity?
One need to push the body back i.e. Bums behind and below the saddle.
Ofcourse its very difficult to get into this position when things
happen all of a sudden.
Ashwatha did touch upon the topic of bracing by using hand to prevent
body motion of going over handle bar.
Agree with role of front brake more than rear.. Thats why most
motorbikes have disc brakes in front.
Reminds me of mail thread between Dr. Deepak & George Joseph.. They
actually were planning to meet up and try out from Nandi top.
Deepak, remember, u told that u will disengage Front brake of Goerge's
bike to prove ur point ;)
-Nalla.

>>>>> is done when the speed of the front wheel & rear wheel is *different*.

>>>>>>>> www.**bangalorebicyclechampionsh**ips.**com<http://www.bangalorebicyclechampionships.com/>for

>>>>>>>> more details
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> Visit

>>>>>> www.**bangalorebicyclechampionships.**com<http://www.bangalorebicyclechampionships.com/>for

>>>>>> more details
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>
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>
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Rgds,
Nalla.
Rider of Cleated Warriors - Bangalore Bicycle racing team
Visit http://www.facebook.com/cleatedwarriors for more details

[deepakvrao]

Very nice post. Clearly explained. Yes, you can recover from a rear skid but never from a front wheel skid. I think though that careful application of front on descents is fine as long as you know what you are doing.

[Vasu]

Just out of curiousity:

Has anyone had a 'over the handlebar' fall from a road bike?

V

[Rajanikanth Puttabuddi]

I had but on MTB with disc brake. Cable was not changed. I used the left lever ( front wheel ) and fell over the handle bar.
Severe pain in the ribs for several days ( initially thought i had broken ribs ) apart from bruises on palms and knees.

rk

[Vasu]

[Sudhir P]

I've had an over-the handlebars topple with my roadie, while going into a pothole which i didnt notice because it was raining so hard. It was a classic case of not holding my arms stiff, and thus my body moving forward due to the braking.

-sud

[Nalla P Konar]

Vasu,

Will you be now rephrasing your question and asking "Any "normal" height person had a 'over the handlebar' fall from a road bike? ""

 

Holding the arm stiff and bracing for the deceleration also will come via practice only na.

Same with feathering the brakes, its easy to do it while descending etc than in panic situations.. these habits need to go into involuntary consciousness which will come only by practice.

Rgds,
Nalla.
Rider of Cleated Warriors - Bangalore Bicycle racing team
Visit http://www.facebook.com/cleatedwarriors for more details

[Shankar Shastry]

+1 to everything Rahul said and one most important rule : Never brake when you're inside a turn. Either finish your braking before you get into the turn or wait to brake after the turn. There's almost no way you can recover from a front wheel skid and almost always a chance to recover from a rear wheel skid - rear wheel skid falls mean only one thing : You panicked.

[Vasu]

Nalla: road bikes are in general much safer man. everyone should ride one.

[nilesh dhumal]

ya i have seen over the bar and  rider on the bonet of the car safe landing for the rider but the road bike is no longer in use ... 

[nilesh dhumal]

Braking is an art in Biking and one needs to master it ... "Nilesh N Dhumal"

[Dathathreya Krishnabhat]

Yesterday I had fall due to 'mishandled' hand bar. I fixed up hand bar (or bar ends) yesterday and I knew back of mind that I should not use it in slopes. Some how mind and body not in sync. I was happily on slope, crossed first hump, while crossing 2nd hump, i ended up in rain water drain (was clean luckily).
Than god for no major injuries, only few bruises on my hand. Luckily I was wearing helmet, so no head injuries.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Vasu <mr.b....@gmail.com> wrote:

[nilesh dhumal]

Happy Crashing ...

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fails-for-Your-Friday-July20-2012.html 

[Shankar Shastry]

Vasu : Some might argue that riding a road bike all the time is worse than going over the bars on trails ;) - before an ice cream :P.

Happy crashing could have come last weekend, no? What with Friday, the 13th and all ;).

 

[Gourav Sengupta]

i have rammed into cars, been hit by cars, rode over dogs and men, chased by dogs, tore my nails off, broken bones, seen spokes through my foot, seen my skull (twice), spat blood, fell head over heels - sideways - backwards, been chased by rowdies, got almost blinded, got beaten and slapped on street, chased by police, been twice under trucks, ......

so here is my cycling anthem: break, jump, tear, bleed, pant, skid, sweat, laugh, pedal, STAY ALIVE AND REPEAT!!!!

over and enough number of times cycling frees us from grips of fear, we are always prepared to fall and forever ready to come back with anger, with love, with vengeance, with the spirit of cyclist

to all those whom cycling has taught to laugh, fall and laugh back

Regards,
Gourav
(PS: All writings are pun intended and not to be taken seriously)

[RT]

Geez! 

Errr.... do you think perhaps you might not be doing something right (even in a karmic sense) :P

You should get a tattoo for each. It'd make cool viewing :D

Cheers,

Rahul

p.s. Spokes through your foot??!

[Naseer Hussain]

+1 for (apply both breaks (again first the rear n den the front) in form of dots (like hold-release-hold-release-hold and it must be done faster ) this would avoid the bike's wheel from getting locked and from skidding.. )

This works.

 

 

Nash

 

 

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Chethu Gowda <chetha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Its a good practice to use both front and rear breaks.. but one should apply the rear break first n den d front one.. if not toppling of the bike is very expected if u apply d front break.. and definitely the suspension will help u in this case.. What I usually do when I have to apply the break drastically is, apply both breaks (again first the rear n den the front) in form of dots (like hold-release-hold-release-hold and it must be done faster ) this would avoid the bike's wheel from getting locked and from skidding..

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Rajat Malhotra <rajatm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Bikers,

I have been in this group for almost a year now and have mostly been a silent member reading and getting gyan :-) Wanted to share my first accident on bike...

I commute to office by bicycle now for a bit more than a year about 7km one way and try to do at-least 4 days a week. Have a Schwinn Searcher 2011 and am pretty happy with it. Last week I was going back to home from office in the evening about 6PM. I usually avoid main roads and travel in the by-lanes. This one, between jivan bhima nagar and tippasandra is a sloping one, and I was going with the slope so was in quite a bit of speed. There were couple of men standing on the side of the road talking and suddenly a small girl about 6 years ran from behind them across the road and seeing me she just stood there in the middle of the road in terror. I had to break as hard as I could and as soon as I did that the bike toppled over and I came down hard on my shoulder and knee. Luckily the girl was still at some distance from me and was saved. I always wear helmet so no injuries to head. Knee and shoulder took major impact and there were quite a few bruises on shoulder, hand and knee. I sat down there in pain when the parents of the girl and neighbours cam there and helped me with some water. Not sure how long I sat there as I was getting blank, but after some time I gained some power and poured water over my head and became full conscious again. Stood up and checked the bike, nothing major except some scratches on the handle and the glass top of the shifters indicator broken. Even though the pain was there in left knee I still cycled all the way to my home about 3 kms from there trying not to exert the left knee. Luckily no major injuries were there and now I'm back to cycling. 

But the main reason I wanted to share this story is to get insights from some of you gurus as to why did the cycle topple. I know that CG of cycle is pretty high but I must not be going above 30 - 35 and I used both breaks. Is that incorrect way of breaking? Should I have used only the rear breaks, but then rear ones are not so effective in breaking hard. I have lockable front suspension that I do not use and have it locked always since I read on this forum that it helps in saving some momentum. But I guess suspension would have helped in this case?

How can one avoid toppling even while breaking hard at high speeds? Please share your thoughts as I guess newbies and people like me who only travel small distances and do not have much experience will benefit from the discussion.

Regards,
Rajat

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[Sudhir P]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Naseer Hussain <anwer....@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 for (apply both breaks (again first the rear n den the front) in form of dots (like hold-release-hold-release-hold and it must be done faster ) this would avoid the bike's wheel from getting locked and from skidding.. )

This works.

 This definitely doesnt work. If the OP had done this, that little kid on the road would be smashed (and the OP would have still had a fall)

[Rajat Malhotra]

Absolutely DOT on... hold release only helps in skiding situations like wet/slippery road or gravel where you need to keep the grip. And in-fact this increases the time and distance to stop in most of the scenarios.

[deepakvrao]

Rubbish.

[rushi]

On Friday, July 20, 2012 2:02:08 AM UTC-7, NELLY wrote:

Braking is an art in Biking and one needs to master it ... "Nilesh N Dhumal"
             

Wah wah. Aadha barse aadha barse. 

[sandeep shet]

Isnt it "Aadaab Arz hai Aadab Arz Hai???" :D

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[Dathathreya Krishnabhat]

True if i am not wrong , 'adha barse' would be 'half flowing ' :-)

[sandeep shet]

Lol :D

[mkonchady]

Why rubbish?

The principle of intermittent braking is used in the Ant-lock Brake System (ABS) of cars. 

When the ABS is activated in a car, you feel a pulsing in the brake pedal (repeated on / off)

You could translate the same idea to a bicycle. Repeatedly brake and release to avoid a skid.

Once you skid, you have practically lost control of the bike.

--Manu

On Friday, July 20, 2012 10:30:07 PM UTC+5:30, deepakvrao wrote:

Rubbish.

On Friday, July 20, 2012 6:38:27 PM UTC+5:30, Nas wrote:

+1 for (apply both breaks (again first the rear n den the front) in form of dots (like hold-release-hold-release-hold and it must be done faster ) this would avoid the bike's wheel from getting locked and from skidding.. )

This works.

 

 

Nash

 

[nilesh dhumal]

Hi 

The solution is feathering and not braking like ABS it may work at slower speeds but not  always .

without going to the depth of ABS, the reason why ABS is developed because its has 4 Wheels stability and Contact point with the ground and it is for general safety as people dont know how to drive / Brake in a situation..... Having said so their are ABS on Mo-bikes too these are the high end premium ones..

now coming to our noble bike it will soon have ABS too at a Cost...:-)

But it will not gain more control over rider him self learning to feather the Brakes it is similar type/ pattern of braking what ABS does but never lock's the wheel at any point like the ABS does since the bike has 2 wheels it will loose traction quickly also it disturbs the balance of the rider and the bike due to jerky nature of braking, remember we don't experience this in car cause of the 4 wheels.

Also ABS In Mo-Bike is very Advance and smarter than the CAR ABS  it calculates the speed of the bike at the given time, angle of lean of the bike +  the amount of suspension traveled in front and rear and the modulation of the brakes applied by the rider at the hand and the leg. it take so much to do braking and not give the Jerky feel and slow down faster and safer, all this technology for taking  a turn at 100km + speeds on little loose surface where riders cannot think fast enough ... and they were/ are  feathering the brakes.

So Learn how to feather the brakes and analyzing the the path Condition (wet/dry. dirt /tramac) then getting into comfortable speed zone to do braking and more importantly not to panic..

Also keep pushing its fun... 

Brake Safe...

Cheers

Nelly 

--

[Uday]

You should ask Shreeju, the expert. There was a nice thread he wrote after he had frequent falls due to an under-sized bike, and he ended up upgrading one size with only three/four weeks on his old bike.

[shreeju]

If you are falling frequently when you apply brakes / hitting minor potholes, it could be due to an under-sized bike, like my problem. But considering this fall was on a downslope, and he was fast, and it was a sudden brake, it could just be that he needs to be more careful with braking, shifting weight behind saddle etc.. 

And Uday, am I the 'expert' of falls? ;)

[RT]

Nelly, thanks for explaining the technical aspects of ABS. I started typing to try and explain why this 'alternating brakes via dots' or whatever is a confusing and bad idea (particularly in an emergency) and I gave up halfway as I got bored.

I don't get the connection between small sizing and falling. Please elaborate.

[deepakvrao]

Rubbish, because for maximal braking efficacy on dry tarmac, it is the front brake that should be applied to maximum ability - that is, the max you can apply without going over the bars. At that time, the rear tyre has little or no traction at all, so rear braking will not add to braking effect.

Link has been given in one of the above posts.

[nilesh dhumal]

Hey

+ Doc

braking rule..

60-40 Rule or even 70 - 30 

Front 60% 0r 70%

Rear 40% or 30%

also if the wrong size bike will make you fall then god help all those riders who bought bikes from jayant ...

also  the most selling bike on Indian Road our BLACK Bike is on size fits all, those guys must  have broken records of falling.

its like 

dance knowing not courtyard  only bent..

--

[mkonchady]

 The idea behind ABS and feathering is the same - to avoid skids.

 ABS prevents a car from skidding when a driver jams the brake by periodically reducing brake pressure.

 The same concept applies in a bicycle. If you are riding at a reasonable speed and you jam the front brake, the rear wheel may skid. Once the bike skids, you could fall with associated consequences.

 Feathering (seems to be the same as intermittent braking) also makes sense at any speed. Think of taxis that constantly race and brake. It increases wear and tear besides poor mileage.

 Likewise it makes sense on a bicycle to ride smoothly and apply the brakes lightly. In an emergency, increasing and releasing the brake pressure should give you more control over the bike without the dangerous skid.

 So, a controlled collision is preferred over the uncontrolled collision.

 Or maybe no collision is the best...

 --Manu Konchady

[deepakvrao]

Rear wheel skid if you jam on front brakes? Really? Please try and think about this logically.

[abhi]

Downhill + speed + front brake = only one logical outcome.

And effective braking varies from surface to surface.

[RT]

+100. You beat me to it doc.

mkonchady that makes no sense at all. Also, please read Nelly's post again on why ABS can't be replicated by a human being. Feathering is NOT the same as ABS. It is the application of changing degrees of pressure to the disc (or rim in the case of road bikes) without ever applying them fully. ABS utilises the full locking and release of the brakes alternately in milliseconds.

[Vasu]

Do road bikes also have ABS?

 

V

[rushi]

dance knowing not courtyard  only bent..

Better only courtyard being bent then wheel rim bent. 

[mkonchady]

Well, here's more from the Web...

http://www.bicyclesource.com/tips_for_braking_on_roads

The rear wheel's skidding is your signal to release the front brake a little, transferring weight toward the rear to reduce skidding and avoid pitchover. Once the rear wheel stops skidding, squeeze the front brake harder. Continuously adjust the force on the front brake lever to keep the rear wheel just below the point of skidding.

http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

If the rear wheel skids while braking force is also being applied to the front, the rear of the bike will tend to swing past the front, since the front is applying a greater decelerating force than the rear. Once the rear tire starts to skid, it can move sideways as easily as forward.

http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter6a.htm

Locked wheels are also terrible for steering and control. You will skid and slide, and at all the worst times.

To stop as quickly as possible, squeeze your rear brake lever with moderate force and your front lever firmly, aiming for a 3:1 ratio of front brake force to rear brake force. Listen and feel for your rear tire: when it starts to skid, you know that you've lost almost all weight on your rear wheel. When this happens, ease off on your front brake until enough weight is on the back wheel to keep it on the ground, with enough traction and stop the skid.

There are similarities between ABS and feathering

http://snippets.com/what-is-the-advantage-of-abs-in-a-car.htm

ABS or anti-lock braking system is a safety system created to aid the driver in periods of excessive braking. Controlled by the ECU the ABS will "feather" the brakes when the car detects that the wheels have locked up. This in turn keeps the car from sliding out of control.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_it_mean_when_normal_brakes_''lock_up''_and_how_do_you_get_them_to_''unlock''

ABS controlled brakes never really "lock up", since the ABS is designed to prevent that. The most important thing to do if you need to stop quickly and your ABS system kicks in is not to panic, and to keep the pressure on the brakes. Some people try to feather ABS brakes like they would old style brakes. This is very bad because the ABS system gets confused and doesn't know if you are really trying to stop wuickly or not. It is a good idea to go into an empty parking lot on a rainy day, get up to 25 mph and stomp on the brakes to see what it feels like so in an emergency, you are familiar with ABS.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:52:50 AM UTC+5:30, deepakvrao wrote:

[deepakvrao]

You haven't understood the article.

Rear wheel is skidding because of rear brake application AND the fact that effective front brake application will tend to lift the rear wheel off the ground, so the rear wheel will no longer have any traction.

With only front brake application it is impossible to have a rear wheel skid.

[deepakvrao]

Also in that article the 'feathering' referred to with ABS is not at all what is meant by feathering in bicycle braking. It is impossible to simulate the ABS action on bike brakes. Physically impossible to apply and release as fast as an ABS does.

[deepakvrao]

From your article

When to Use The Rear Brake

Skilled cyclists use the front brake alone probably 95% of the time, but there are instances when the rear brake is preferred:

• Slippery surfaces. On good, dry pavement, unless leaning in a turn, it is impossible to skid the front wheel by braking. On slippery surfaces, however, it is possible. A front wheel skid almost always leads to a fall, so if there is a high risk of skidding, you're better off controlling your speed with the rear brake.
• Bumpy surfaces. On rough surfaces, your wheels may actually bounce up into the air. If there is a chance of this, don't use the front brake. If you ride into a bump while applying the front brake, the bicycle will have a harder time mounting the bump. If you apply the front brake while the wheel is airborne, it will stop, and coming down on a stopped front wheel is a Very Bad Thing.
• Front flat. If you have tire blowout or a sudden flat on the front wheel, you should use the rear brake alone to bring yourself to a safe stop. Braking a wheel that has a deflated tire can cause the tire to come off the rim, and is likely to cause a crash.
• Broken cable...or other failure of the front brake.

When to Use Both Brakes Together

Generally I advise against using both brakes at the same time. There are exceptions, however:

• If the front brake is not sufficiently powerful to lift the rear wheel, the rear brake can help, but the best thing to do is to repair the front brake.

  Typical rim brakes lose a great deal of their effectiveness when the rims are wet, so using them both together can reduce stopping distances.

• If the front brake grabs or chatters so you can not modulate it smoothly, you must only use it lightly. Again, repair is in order.
• On long, straight mountain descents, your front brake hand may get tired, or you may be at risk of overheating a tire and blowing it out, so it is best to spread the work between both brakes. Pumping the brakes, alternating between one and the other, will briefly heat the surface of each rim more and dissipate more heat before it spreads inwards to the tires. When sharp deceleration is needed, the front brake is more effective, as usual.

• When leaning in a turn, traction is shared between braking and turning. Using both brakes together reduces the likelihood that one wheel or the other will skid and dump you. The steeper you lean, the less you can brake, so moderate your speed before a curve. When you are leaning deeply, you need to release the brakes entirely.

• Long or low bicycles, such as tandems and long-wheelbase recumbents, have their front braking limited by the possibility of skidding the front wheel, since their geometry prevents lifting the rear wheel. Such bikes can stop shortest when both brakes are applied.

  Tandem caution: when riding a tandem solo (no stoker on board) the rear brake becomes virtually useless due to lack of traction. The risk of fishtailing is particularly high if a solo tandem rider uses both brakes at once. This also applies to a lesser extent if the stoker is a small child.

[mkonchady]

OK, here's one more from the Web. You can skid the rear wheel by just pressing the front brake alone. Try it on an empty road.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/246435-how-to-stop-bike-brakes-from-skidding/

Practice braking in a vacant playground or parking lot. Pedal fast and then brake hard with the front brake, pedaling as you do so. Brake harder and harder each time until you feel the rear wheel start to skid, so that you know the limits of your bike's braking power.

The bottom line is that it is NOT rubbish to borrow an idea from ABS and try it on a bicycle.

If it works, fine... Otherwise, jam your brakes and take your chances !!!

--Manu Konchady

[deepakvrao]

Skid:  To slide without revolving

Not possible unless some braking force is applied to the wheel.

Again, like I said, try and think this logically. Everything on the net is not true you know, even on Lance's website. You can have a over the bar but NOT a rear wheel skid with only front brake application.

[deepakvrao]

http://www.seattlebiketours.org/members/effective_cycling/panic_stop.html

There is an art to effectively stopping a bicycle in an emergency. Doing it incorrectly could cause you to: 1) hit the object you are trying to avoid; 2) somersault over the handlebars; 3) lose control of the bike as the rear wheel skids out from under you. If you are like many people, you instinctively grab both brakes in an emergency and apply them equally until the bike begins to skid. This is inefficient because you have no control over a locked wheel (it cannot be steered), and a wheel that is skidding offers you virtually no stopping power.

When you apply either the front or rear brake, the bicycle begins to slow down and your weight transfers forward because of inertia. The more weight a wheel supports, the more effective the applied braking force, and the less tendency to skid.

Thus, if you apply only the rear brake hard, your weight is shifted to the front, decreasing weight on the rear wheel. since the rear wheel is supporting less weight, it will skid as you brake, decreasing the effectiveness of the brake.

Applying only the front brake hard also shifts weight to the front wheel. In this case, however, the weight transfer increases the effectiveness of the brake, and the tendency of the braked front wheel to skid is greatly reduced. However, the danger is that if the front brake is applied too hard, the rear wheel will lift off the road and the rider may be pitched over the handlebars.

The implications, the, for effective braking are as follows:

• Braking with the rear brake alone will avoid pitchover, but it is not very effective.
• The theoretically fastest stop is made with the front brake alone, but this is dangerous-only a slight error will pitch you over.
• The best system for a fast, safe stop is to use both brakes in a 3:1 ratio, front:rear, which produces the optimum deceleration. If the rear wheel starts to skid, this indicates that you are unweighting the rear wheel almost to the pitchover point. Therefore, when the rear wheel skids, ease up slightly on the front brake.
• When braking hard, slide your body back in the saddle as far as possible. Although it is not necessary for an effective panic stop, you can transfer even more weight to the rear wheel by lifting your buttocks off the saddle and thrusting them straight back over the rear axle.
• If you are carrying a heavy load on the rear of your bike, you will be able to brake harder before pitchover occurs.

[mkonchady]

Its not too difficult to visualize.

When you use your front brake, the front wheel may come to a stop.

However, you and the bike including the rear wheel still have forward momentum. 

So, you will move forward or fall over the bar. The back wheel is firmly bolted to the frame and cannot move forward. So, the only option is to move sideways to the left or right, i.e. a skid.

My point was that any idea to prevent skids is worth consideration until proven wrong.

Just saying that an idea is rubbish doesn't prove anything.

Yes, there is a difference by several orders of magnitude in the force to stop a car compared to a bicycle. Still, it is worth attempting to convert a successful idea (ABS) for cars to bicycles.

--Manu

[deepakvrao]

This is where your theory is wrong.

"""""So, you will move forward or fall over the bar. The back wheel is firmly bolted to the frame and cannot move forward. So, the only option is to move sideways to the left or right, i.e. a skid."""""

Bolted to the frame? Yes, but the whole frame goes end over.The option for the rear wheel is not to slid left/right but to lift up and go over the front. This actually happens. Try it. It always happens with hard front braking.

[deepakvrao]

The entire bike will pivot around the front axle. Easy to understand.

[Surya Prakash Gurunarayanan]

if u use only front brake hard, the rear wheel will lift off the ground and due to the forward momentum it will swing to either side IF the biker has not pitched forward yet. (this is called endo and not skid. To avoid the rear wheel pivoting around the front steerer, the rider leans to either side to make an angle between the front wheel and the frame so that he can contain the deceleration like this: http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/weeee420/ENDO.jpg )

but the rear wheel will still have rotation. it is not a skid unless the rear brake locks out the wheel.

IMO, as doc mentioned, 3:1 front to rear is what i found best. braking rear is best in corners if u have ur inside foot out and feathering front for controlling speeds and yes before entering corners.

if front skids 100% u will crash (unless u are at the level of sam hill :p); u can contain rear skid with more practice.

for fast deceleration i usually tend to pump() both wheels before braking.

BikeRadar:

. Pumping allows braking with force

The most straightforward way to use pump is to improve your braking. If you can brake hard and fast with confidence then you can ride faster into every turn, or into the entry to a tricky section of trail.

• As you ride along, stand up with cranks level and weight centred
• Drop your heels and thrust your bodyweight down through your feet as you squeeze both levers

The downward force will flatten the tyres and compress the forks and rear shock, giving extra grip and allowing you to brake harder before the wheels lock up. By dropping the heels you’ll maintain good body position as the bikes decelerates hard – absorbing forces through the feet rather than the handlebars.

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