Query to randonneurs who do 600K, 1000K and 1200K :)

[Ashok Kumar S]

Hi bikers,

I have a question to all the super men out there, who ride these ultra long brevets. I have done only 200K brevets to date, and am thinking about doing the longer ones.

My concern is about sleep (a similar thread is going on already, but my question is slightly different.) and night riding. I absolutely need a min 5-6 hours sleep a night and don't want to ride between 11pm to 4am due to various safety reasons. I can't imagine riding on a road along with a truck guy who also is on randonneuring(say, have slept only a few hours over past few days.)

Now, to my question: What do you guys think about planning the ride in such a way that one rides for say 12-14 hours a day, then couple of hours for the food breaks, and then at least 6 hours of night time sleep? The cut off time for 1000K is 90hrs, right? Doesn't it allow us to get enough sleep and follow a pattern like this instead of following a RAAM kind of crazy sleep deprived ride? I'm thinking of attempting this if this kind of a strategy is feasible... :)

I'm asking this since I could do 266Km in around 11.5 hours total(9.5 hours ride time) during the 200K brevet and my home to home average speed(moving time) was ~28kmph. Now that could be because it was flat roads, tailwind assisted return, blah blah.. Now, I can push say 330km on the same day with another 2-3 hours at similar speeds. Which makes it around 12hours of riding time. Add to it time to rest, sleep etc, I guess in three days(72 hours), I might be able to cover 1000km, this is with almost 12 hours of rest. Now suppose there are a lot of climbs and the average drops to around 20kmph. Even then, 50hours of riding time is needed, and we have 40 more hours.  Is it not possible still to cover it with say, 15 hours of riding per day, 2hours food breaks and 6-7 hours of sleep in around 80-85 hours?

Are the cut offs in such way that this pattern is not possible or is it that I am too much simplifying the stuff without taking into consideration many important factors, of course due to my inexperience?

Thanks and regards,
Ashok

[Anil Kadsur]

The cut off time for 1000K is 90hrs, right?

75 hrs.

Are the cut offs in such way that this pattern is not possible?

kind of yes.

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

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[Sandeep]

If you can maintain 28-30kmph average and optimize food stops, then you can get lots of time to sleep in the night. That is the strategy used by some randonneurs.

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Ashok Kumar S <s.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Jayaprakash E]

Again beware of blazing sun. It is quite difficult to ride at that pace if the sun is out with full force.

[vivek]

One major problem if you plan that way is you won't leaving enough time buffer for unforeseen events like headwinds, rain, mechanical failure, etc.

Note: I've done only till 300 BRM.

Regards,

Vivek

[shreeju]

Every control point requires minimum average speed of 15kmph (including rest / food / sleep time). So to implement your plan, your sleep breaks needs to be aligned with control point locations. If the brevet starts in the evening, you will not be able to do that! ;)

For eg - if you need a continuous 6 hour sleep break, you need to make sure that you have already ridden atleast 6 hours @ 30kmph avg (including food breaks). That way you will handle the worst case of a having a control point 1 meter after your sleeping point.. ;) 

[Opendro]

You need sleep. That can be done either during day or night whichever suits depending on the start time and control time of the brevet.

You are unnecessarily too worried about the truck drivers during night. Yes, they do really long drives, some might sleep off the wheels. That can happen either in the night or during the day. But by and large, they do sleep some minimum hours during the journey or they have a handyman who can double up as back up drivers.

BTW, you need to average 15 kmph for the first 600K. It is 12 kmph thereafter (if I remember correctly). So, you cannot distribute the distance evenly over the allotted time. You do need to cover more initially. But if you ride 25+ on the saddle, all these are immaterial.

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:37:11 AM UTC+5:30, Ashok Kumar S wrote:

[Sandeep]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Opendro <ope...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are unnecessarily too worried about the truck drivers during night.

+1. If you have driven/ridden on highways in the night, you will soon realize that professional highway truck drivers(not the city kind) are some of the safest drivers on the highway; they maintain their lanes, will not change lanes abruptly, and are usually going so slow on uphills that you are sometimes faster on the bicycle.
On the other hand you should be wary of bus/car/TT drivers.

[Ashok Kumar S]

That's the point. I said randonneur truck drivers, not about professional ones who take proper rest and won't let fatigue affect their driving. I'm worried if there are truck drivers also who workout sleeping enough, are fatigued and are endangering others life as well in a much higher extend than cyclists who ride without sleep and rest do. And hence I want to ride it only if I can manage enough rest. :)

Thanks and regards,

Ashok. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Sandeep]

As a randonneur, you may actually be more visible in the night than in the day(when you are just one of many moving objects to look out for). Does it make it safer then to ride in the night and sleep in the daytime? :-)

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

The ride at night/sleep at day is tough to manage , since your body tends to droop off at night!

Regards
Chiddu
http://vaccinerisks.wordpress.com

http://chiddu2k.wordpress.com

[Opendro]

Though I generally agree with that statement, different people have different physical attributes. Some might not be as bad as others in adjusting the sleep timings.

However, Ashok's concern is not his sleepiness but rather that of the truck drivers. More than the drivers, I would rather worry about the kind of roads. I definitely feel that the multi-lane highways are quite safe during nights specially away from town. However, I get nightmares to think of night riding on Mysore Bangalore highway where traffic volume is huge and super fast and road does not have any shoulder.

Nevertheless, I would prefer sleeping somewhere between 2AM to 5 AM during brevet rides if the temperature is not too cold. It avoid unnecessary lugging of food/water when most shops would be closed.

[Ashok Kumar S]

My sleepiness as well is a concern in that if I move to the middle of the road suddenly in my sleep which some have reported in this forum as well, an alert truck driver may have to sway his truck to avoid the cyclist, with a finite probability of causing a fatal accident with an oncoming/overtaking vehicle. In that way, any one who is under fatigue and is not well rested and is on road riding/driving is a risk to other responsible road users as well. 

Thanks and regards,

Ashok. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Opendro]

Very well said. If one feels the need to sleep, he/she should find a means to take a short nap as soon as possible or sleep properly if there is a decently good place to sleep. It applies to both cycling as well as any other form of transport.

[Blackmamba]

Thanks to Ashok for starting this topic

here are my queries, it will be of immense help if riders share there experience,

1. what kind of preparation one needs apart from fitness?

2. apart from spare tubes and puncture kit anything else needs to be carried.

3. how do you guys deal with dogs when you enter towns at night

4. bit apprehensive about muggers while resting on roadside during night, whats your general approach to avoid such things

5. do you guys carry extra clothes on longer rides.

6. will 700x23c tires holds good in such routes or should one go for wider profile tyres.

7. is it advice-able to ride with clipless pedals 

8. and how do you handle curious people.

[anup rao yellur]

inline replies.

Thanks to Ashok for starting this topic

here are my queries, it will be of immense help if riders share there experience,

1. what kind of preparation one needs apart from fitness?

<anup>atleast one whole night ride 

 

2. apart from spare tubes and puncture kit anything else needs to be carried

<anup>extra lights , batteries , food for emergencies . belgaum road for instance has no food shops for very long stretches ,

sometimes takes an hour or two to get to the next shop

 

3. how do you guys deal with dogs when you enter towns at night

<anup>stop riding , when it stops barking walk slowly and ride when out of their range 

 

4. bit apprehensive about muggers while resting on roadside during night, whats your general approach to avoid such things

<anup>no idea  

 

5. do you guys carry extra clothes on longer rides.

<anup>i didnt carry 

 

6. will 700x23c tires holds good in such routes or should one go for wider profile tyres.

<anup>yes , usually not an issue when riding on highways 

 

7. is it advice-able to ride with clipless pedals 

<anup>have never used one till date 

 

8. and how do you handle curious people.

 <anup>me-- I lie  and say am  tired and cant talk when faced with too many questions,  when people enquire  i usually lie regarding my destination , its usually the next town

Regards

anup 

[Anil Kadsur]

+1 my observation too....

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Anil Kadsur]

4. bit apprehensive about muggers while resting on roadside during night, whats your general approach to avoid such things

when you are entering/exiting Bigger cities like Bangalore, it is bit of a concern all probability you may face muggers. Villages and other small town anywhere else is lot more safer and people are surprisingly friendly and helpful. I had countless instances where people treat me with soft drinks, coffee, tea or whatever i eat (they do not allow me to pay at all....).  They consider it is their duty as i am in their town/village i am their guest.

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Aravind M S]

+1

[Ashok Kumar S]

But the concern is about a few bad elements who with all probability will be present even on small villages. If unfortunately one comes at a wrong time, when the bad elements are out and the good public is asleep, things could turn ugly even in villages or any where. This happens with travelers traveling on highways in cars as well. So, this is an inherent risk of night time riding, which has to be taken if one wants to ride across night. And only possible way to ensure safety is to ride in a decent sized group at these hours.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Anil Kadsur <anilk...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Thanks and regards, Ashok Kumar S.

[Opendro]

Every moment in life is a risk, not just murder, but also self accidents, accidents involving other factors such as vehicles, food poison, natural calamities, fire/building, etc. etc.

That is why the organizers make us sign the indemnity form ;)

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

The dangers are likely mostly on the *outskirts* of big towns, where you see a lot of mobile population, not in villages or small towns. During the Challakere 400 when I was riding all alone, I had to go to the toilet and was looking for a place to lock my bike. The hotel owner was pretty much offended that I could even worry about the safety of the bike when he was around.

Regards
Chiddu
http://vaccinerisks.wordpress.com

http://chiddu2k.wordpress.com

[Anil Kadsur]

+1

absolutely.... 

"i know people while getting down from cot twist their ankles and we have bikers coming down from Turahalli and fall do not break anything"

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Ashok Kumar S]

Yes, the regular accident probability is always there, even while sitting inside your home, where as there is another set of events/attacks, which you can invite with a bit of negligence and can avoid with a bit of care... those are the ones I meant...

On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Opendro <ope...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Anil Kadsur]

Agree, how much control one have on those unforeseen/unpredictable instances/accidents....i thought the below quote is opt in communicating what i wanted to....

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Opendro]

Ashok, I totally understand your concerns. People don't ride motorcycles in cities with the same concern that it is very unsafe compared to cars and fatalities are much higher. And motorcycle users give the same reason again to avoid riding bicycle in city commutes.

There is no denying that probability increases over the same distance covered. Sometimes, an increase in probability does not affect our overall life, because those probabilities are still quite small or that is at least what we want to believe. Otherwise, we would all have stopped driving by now. It is also likely that we cover much lesser distance by bicycle compared to distances covered using cars.

I say, take the cycle out in city, to highways in day and then in night and measure for yourself. If you are still convinced that the increase in risk is too significant to be ignored, then cycling is not for you, because the better alternative (to reduce the risk factor) is already available to us.

So, different people have different views though the statistical facts would be same for everyone.

[Ashok Kumar S]

My point was about two things. 1. Being sleep deprived and riding, endangering others. 2. Being at places at times where you could be exposing your self to muggers and robbers. I would avoid these two, but doesn't mean I would avoid cycling. :)

Thanks and regards,

Ashok. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Opendro]

Fair enough. But when you get a chance to ride with companions, you can try those two with companions and evaluate after that.

[Ashok Kumar S]

Agreed and looking forward to that. Will try a 400k first. Even overnight drives I don't do alone and company makes sure we don't fall asleep and can stop and sleep anywhere we want to when sleepy. I believe the same applies to cycling as well. 

Thanks and regards,

Ashok. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Company helps upto a point. 

Regards
Chiddu
http://vaccinerisks.wordpress.com

http://chiddu2k.wordpress.com