Proposed Randonneuring changes

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

I'm putting Divya's message on behalf of the volunteer group in Bangalore Brevets. Appreciate your honest feedback, directly to me or any of the guys who make up the BB group 

Hi all,

Some of you have asked me to give you some idea of what the actual fees may be like. Please understand at the outset that I have much work to do right now till mid-october to get everything in place. This project to legalize and systemize AIR is a work in progress and things are evolving daily. I am doing my best to keep you updated as things progress. Please read my mails fully and only then make queries.

Besides the legal, insurance and registration costs and fees, we are in the process of having an AIR website developed to fulfill all AIR requirements. It will operate at the national level, contain all brevet related static information, with pages for each club, and act as the tool to handle all data related to membership registration, generate rider numbers, route database management, registration of all events, Brevet cards, cue sheets, controle sheets, generating results in the new format that ACP requires, maintaining the database of all homologations, and provide us with means of mining the data for SRs and other awards etc. 

ACP has also created a similar web based tool for results, that will reduce much manual work for Jean Gualbert and all of us national representatives. If we have some funds by the end of next year i expect that we can have a smartphone app developed to be used by organisers, officials and riders. That should be fun.

I myself only have ballpark figures from the professionals we need to hire, as they themselves are being taken through the process of understanding AIR requirements, and what it will demand of them. Anil and I just spent 5 hours in a meeting with a web developer explaining all the intricacies of our work. And since there are no existing models, Anil and I are directly involved in drafting the constitution, the rules, and giving it to the company secretaries to convert into legally watertight language. this has required untold hours of research and adaptation of other club constitutions etc. Needless to say, my biggest complaint is having absolutely no time to cycle! So many clubs and no time to ride! :-(

My estimate of the cost of establishing AIR as a legal entity, and the functional website is 2 to 2.5 lakhs. Because i was working in my personal capacity till now, all clubs till now enjoyed these services for free and we did not set aside a corpus towards this capital requirement. At this time, that will have to be invested by me and Anil, and we hope to be able to recover this from AIR over the next 2 years. Operation costs are another expense to consider. Here is a link to what is a rough draft of the fee structure right now. I will keep updating it. https://docs.google.com/document/d/131yjcwRNq9CT378PrK2KChZH7nEHlti0jHBa9xmYFLo/edit

So I'm throwing out some rough numbers, which may change depending on what establishing AIR and AIR operations actually cost. Here goes

• Annual Club Membership - 5000/- per annum to be paid at start of ACP year - Benefit to club is membership to a national body with international affiliation, 3rd party insurance, and the support of a fully automated web based tool to manage all Organisational tasks, an AIR handbook of all information.
• Deposit - likely to be the same
• Brevet Fee - 500/- per brevet that is submitted to the calendar and to be paid at start of ACP year. This is essentially toward operation cost for manual task of route and approval form checking, creating and hosting the event on the website, managing all the back end services related to brevet management. 
• Homologation Fee -  100/- includes the homologation fee to ACP. this will cover operation expenses for the results handling, to be paid along with medal fee at the time of submitting results.
• Any changes to Brevet dates and routes will carry a fee for making the change in all the systems including ACP tool, and manual re-checking. 
• Annual Rider Membership Fee - 5 or 600/- per annum to be paid to AIR, for membership to a National body - Benefits will be a permanent unique identification, a rider no., unlimited no of brevets, access to all India brevet information, downloadable handbook, newsletter, any other publications AIR takes out, and all data management services.
• Temporary Rider Fee - 150-200/- fee only valid for one ride.
• Last years Fees will also be due as soon as possible for me to take payments.
• All payments will be through a payment gateway on the website. Unless you make the payments as required whatever process is pending will automatically be unavailable. 

Going forward, How can you make this work at club level? Riders will have to take membership with AIR to ride an AIR calendar event by paying a fee. they have to be members of AIR to ride a brevet. However Organisers are free to create paid memberships to their own respective clubs for their riders, giving them benefit of other event participation, medal ceremonies, training rides or programmes. 

Brevet organisation is not an insignificant task and requires time effort and money. Registration Fees will have to include brevet fees and homologation fees. The fees will have to be within an upper limit depending on number of riders and what all provisions you make to the riders, but will be decided so that all expenses are recovered. A provision is made for special circumstances.

Will update again when i have info. 

Regards

Divya

[Sreepathi Pai]

You know, there is *no* national entity (RUSA, AUK and even the ACP)
that charges these kind of fees. RUSA is one of the biggest
randonneuring organization there is (second only to Japan, I think)
and their membership fees are just $20 per year. Organizers are not
charged, nor are clubs charged, nor is there a per-brevet fee and most
importantly, they do not charge extra for homologations!

Plus, every rider gets a vote to elect a board of representatives that
serves them! This is prominently missing here.

I could not see any sort of reasoning behind these fees either --
based on ridership over the past four years. I'm sure small clubs like
IISc Randonneurs will not be able to survive unless they raise the
riding fees. But for what? A list of vague promises?

Oh well, this is what happens when a monopoly exists.

P.S.: I was an organizer early on, and left (and I'm being diplomatic
here) because there was no democratic structure. Surprisingly, neither
randonneurs nor organizers seemed to care at that time.

P.P.S.: As someone who has a little bit of experience writing
software, I hope organizers know what vaporware means :)

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--
Sreepathi Pai

[anup rao yellur]

vapourware ?

you might be banned for working against the interests of Randonneuring and randonneurs in India, acting in a manner that would have deprived countless riders in India of the chance to ride brevets, jeopardising the chances of Indian randonneurs of participating in PBP 2015

[Parag]

I am not very clear on the reasons for all the changes that Divya talks about (Legal registration, website etc). Is this something the ACP requires ? Can we get a clear articulation for the reasons to do this, and benefits to the clubs and brevet riders ?

Most of us dont really ride the Brevets with the PBP qualification in mind, so some of these things might be unnecessary overhead.

Between work done by BBC and IISc Rando , I think there is enough website infrastructure and automation in place, maybe Divya can adopt it for the AIR and save some trouble and money ?

Parag

[Prashanth Chengi]

Now, regarding the costs mentioned (upwards of 2 lakhs), whether that is the amount spent or estimated value of services rendered (including time), it's mentioned that it's planned to be recovered over some time period x.  Who makes the decision about spending this amount or running up a tab for that amount? 

One thing that's sorely lacking in India in basic infrastructure for bicyclists (dedicated lanes, overall safety) and I feel that the best means of raising awareness is getting more people to bike, so the efforts should be populist and not elitist.  PBP is undoubtedly a prestigious event, but how many have the means to go abroad to participate in it?  Surely, huge costs over 2 lakhs cannot be justifiably recovered from all members, whether they have aspirations of PBP or not?  Asking people to pay up steep membership charges is a sure-fire way of driving people away from biking, rather than bringing them into the fold.  Keep the costs down to the absolute minimums and if necessary, have special charges for the special events which the elite can participate in, thereby not burdening everybody.

Indeed, there does seem to be a lack of democratic process when somebody simply presents a bill (or proposed bill) and asks people to foot it, without having discussions about whether something is needed or not or if that's indeed the right way.

Opinions may differ and one must indeed strive to maintain decorum, but we must also desist from extreme reactions like pronouncing fatwas and bans. Let's leave the banning and threatening of bans to extremists.

My 0.02 INR.

/Prashanth

[anup rao yellur]

im not an organiser nor do have more than a year of brevet experience.
the message was sarcastic in nature , and i picked the exact  wordings from  AIR website .

https://sites.google.com/site/audaxindiarandonneurs/announcements/bannedpersons

regards

anup

[Sunil Raghavan]

Banning people for cheating or criminal activity is fine and logical. Banning people for disagreeing with your point of view is not fine. Disagreement, even if sarcastic, cannot be interpreted as "Working against the interests of randonneuring etc etc", which is a much more specific charge. Even if you have the authority to ban people, please dont suggest you would abuse it in this fashion. That would do far more harm to cycling in general and randonneuring in particular.

Sunil

[Sreepathi Pai]

On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Parag <parag.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not very clear on the reasons for all the changes that Divya talks
> about (Legal registration, website etc). Is this something the ACP requires
> ?

No. The ACP contracts with individuals, not with organizations, though
they prefer people work in an organization for the reasons below.

> Can we get a clear articulation for the reasons to do this, and benefits
> to the clubs and brevet riders ?

*I* think the reasons that are being articulated are:

1) Lessen load on the country representative due to increase in scale
2) Reduce the large amount of mistakes happening in the results due to
doing everything by hand

To be frank, from public statements, it seems that the workload is too
high for a single person and that person is showing classic signs of
being burned out.

Since being the country rep. requires no special qualifications, I
think everybody involved should come up with a plan to rotate
responsibilities so such things don't happen. Life is bigger than
being the ACP rep.

Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen.

Finally, like I pointed out, these reasons are red herrings. No other
national organization has these rules, and they are far far bigger
than we are.

> Most of us dont really ride the Brevets with the PBP qualification in mind,
> so some of these things might be unnecessary overhead.

I think the non-ACP brevets will take off after this. IR seems to have
run a trial of this.

> Between work done by BBC and IISc Rando , I think there is enough website
> infrastructure and automation in place, maybe Divya can adopt it for the AIR
> and save some trouble and money ?

Your guess is as good as mine as to whether this will happen.

It's clear that BM inspired this sudden desire to have a software of
their "own", but beyond that I see little logic in rejecting BM from
whatever little I've heard. Mostly FUD.

I wish they had sought the services of a system analyst instead of a
web programmer.

That said, there is also another thing that most veterans know: you
don't solve social problems with technical solutions :)

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Mohammad Rafi Shaik]

Hello Chiddu,

In case of BBCH, Some people came and made me shut up my mouth by saying that event cost is less than a Beer and Movie. I am dropped from participating in such events, because i am not able to bear the high costs. 

In case of Brevets, i am scared to talk about the new changes or very expensive BRM fee's(Some BRM events in India) because of banned list and some rich fellows who come back and say its again a beer cost and a movie. I am worrying that, I may also drop of the brevets too.

The existing BRM platform in Bangalore, Chennai & Mysore is good and they are less expensive(I had not done events in other clubs except Mumbai, so can not comment on them).  Can we maintain the same system and encourage even poor people(Like me) too participate in BRMs.

with regards

Mohammad Rafi

[Prashanth Chengi]

This was exactly the point I was making earlier.  What's the point of going all high-tech, if you are cutting people out of the cause? Fancy big name rides are only useful to others (who don't actually do the ride) if they serve as inspiration.  If instead these rides are cited as a reason to drive costs up which results in keeping out interested bikers who don't have deep pockets, it's really nothing short of a tragedy and a travesty of the very spirit of bicycling.  Mohammad, one should never have to fear to speak up, and speaking up for rightful causes should never be grounds for a ban.

/Prashanth

--

[Arvind Ganesh]

The non-ACP brevets are an excellent option for training and preparing for PBP. However, there are many who have aspired to complete PBP and saved money and built bikes for this. Unfortunately, they cannot qualify for PBP unless they complete an ACP series. I see our hands tied at the moment because even at increased costs, we must run ACP brevets in the upcoming PBP season - does anyone disgaree with this? With AIR saying "my way or highway" - what other choice do we have? 

Rafi, we can run the brevets with varying charges for those looking for ACP homologation and those who don't need it. Does anything stop us from doing this, Sree? 

Example (figures imaginary), a 200 BRM where riders looking for ACP homologation pay Rs. 500 vs someone riding for BB (Bangalore Brevet) homologation paying Rs. 100. They get different cards and we can even make our own medal for BB events. 

Arvind

[deepakvrao]

I'm not a brevet rider, but you asked for feedback.

5K a year membership? Plus deposit 5K? 

That alone will kill the project. Just my opinion.

[Jayaprakash E]

Arvind, you have a very good point here. However there is a chance that such organizor is treated as conspiring against AIR.

[Sreepathi Pai]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:42 AM, Arvind Ganesh <arv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The non-ACP brevets are an excellent option for training and preparing for
> PBP. However, there are many who have aspired to complete PBP and saved
> money and built bikes for this. Unfortunately, they cannot qualify for PBP
> unless they complete an ACP series. I see our hands tied at the moment
> because even at increased costs, we must run ACP brevets in the upcoming PBP
> season - does anyone disgaree with this? With AIR saying "my way or highway"
> - what other choice do we have?

Does the ACP approve of these monopoly charges? Have you guys thought
of approaching the Competitions Commission of India? If you're going
to pay for lawyers, you might as well pay them to advocate for your
cause :)

I have seen some comments from non-BB organizers that they can simply
pass on the charges to their riders so this is not a big thing. This
"us-vs-them" attitude is very poor and anti-randonneur.

> Rafi, we can run the brevets with varying charges for those looking for ACP
> homologation and those who don't need it. Does anything stop us from doing
> this, Sree?

No. Article 14 applies and it says that you can't claim credit for
multiple things, thats all. This, of course, implies that multiple
events may be held together.

> Example (figures imaginary), a 200 BRM where riders looking for ACP
> homologation pay Rs. 500 vs someone riding for BB (Bangalore Brevet)
> homologation paying Rs. 100. They get different cards and we can even make
> our own medal for BB events.

This is a great idea -- I had thought of different events, but the
same event could have riders riding for either ACP or BB. We can
handle the logistics quite easily. Educating the riders is harder, but
that is doable. Instead of medals consider pins like BC Randonneurs
(who do not award ACP medals) -- you can always wear a pin and show
off :)

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Sreepathi Pai]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:47 AM, deepakvrao <deepa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not a brevet rider, but you asked for feedback.
>
> 5K a year membership? Plus deposit 5K?
>
> That alone will kill the project. Just my opinion.

Yes, somebody has not worked this out. There are about 10--15 super
randonneurs in Bangalore (the max in India) every season. If we want
to be absolutely fair, these are the people who will pay the majority
of this fee. Thats nearly 1K each in the worst case. Then per
homologation fees of INR 100. Plus membership charges in AIR *without*
voting privileges, that's INR 150 per brevet. Why single these guys
out for punishment?

Would a club like IR ever have formed? We were students at that time
and putting up 10K upfront is laughable. IMHO, when such fees are
applied, only entities with profit-making motives will organize events
to the long term detriment of randonneuring in India. Has nobody at
AIR heard of the law of unintended consequences?

P.S.: Bangalore rides the most number of kilometers of any club and it
has done so for three years straight. It has done so in the "purest"
possible way -- selfless volunteers, absolutely zero corporate
sponsorship/involvement and full community participation and openness.
I didn't work to see this day.

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>
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--

Sreepathi Pai

[Mehul Ved]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Sreepathi Pai <sre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:42 AM, Arvind Ganesh <arv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The non-ACP brevets are an excellent option for training and preparing for
>> PBP. However, there are many who have aspired to complete PBP and saved
>> money and built bikes for this. Unfortunately, they cannot qualify for PBP
>> unless they complete an ACP series. I see our hands tied at the moment
>> because even at increased costs, we must run ACP brevets in the upcoming PBP
>> season - does anyone disgaree with this? With AIR saying "my way or highway"
>> - what other choice do we have?
>
> Does the ACP approve of these monopoly charges? Have you guys thought
> of approaching the Competitions Commission of India? If you're going
> to pay for lawyers, you might as well pay them to advocate for your
> cause :)

Yes, some of us involved with Brevets right from Day 1 saw this trend
long ago, we wrote to Jean-Gaulbert in January expressing our
concerns. But, he shot it down and said he was happy with the way
Brevets are being conducted in India. I've given up on Brevets due to
this and probably am already on the banned list for being a part of
the team that wrote to ACP.

[Sreepathi Pai]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Mehul Ved <mehul...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, some of us involved with Brevets right from Day 1 saw this trend
> long ago, we wrote to Jean-Gaulbert in January expressing our
> concerns. But, he shot it down and said he was happy with the way
> Brevets are being conducted in India.

Maybe when India's ever increasing mileage drops like a stone in a PBP
year, the ACP will take notice? :)

Personally, I gave up any effort at reform when I observed that nobody
other than me seemed to care at that time four years ago -- not the
riders, not the other organizers. Life is too short.



--
Sreepathi Pai

[Mehul Ved]

I've stopped bothering. If ACP is least bit concerned, it's their
problems. We have choice to move on to other things. Let's do what we
can afford and enjoy.

[Abhijit Kshirsagar]

On Sunday, September 14, 2014, Sreepathi Pai <sre...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:42 AM, Arvind Ganesh <arv...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rafi, we can run the brevets with varying charges for those looking for ACP
> homologation and those who don't need it. Does anything stop us from doing
> this, Sree?

No. Article 14 applies and it says that you can't claim credit for
multiple things, thats all. This, of course, implies that multiple
events may be held together.

I believe the complications arising from BRM rider drafting a BB rider (knowingly, unknowingly, or allegedly) are enough to not try this. We know how the penalty and bans work. Consecutive weekends or different routes on same day should be fine. 

This is a great idea --  I had thought of different events, but the
same event could have riders riding for either ACP or BB. We can
handle the logistics quite easily. Educating the riders is harder, but
that is doable. Instead of medals consider pins like BC Randonneurs
(who do not award ACP medals) 

 

For ACP rides? Doesn't that violate art 12,14?

Abhijit

--
~Abhijit

[R. Venkatachalam]

Doing a non-ACP + ACP event in the same ride will be seen as 'anti-randoneuring' - if for some reason a 'pin' rider tries to help a 'medal' rider by lending water, for example.

We should simply do a tough event like the upcoming 1200k brevet as a flagship event (our own version of PBP) and make folks aspire for it. I am sure people will ride the non-acp rides with same rigor. I am placing my trust on the fact that all the hardwork put in by the selfless volunteers all these years will not go a waste, and people will turn up for such event.

If folks are game, we can start a 200k straightaway and see how it goes. Most of the stuff is anyways figured out, we can write guidelines as we move along (electing committees yearly, ride completion recogonition, etc etc) and give it a year to evolve. All we need to start is to manufacture 'pins' - rest of the infra we can piggy back on what has been done so far.

[Shankar Shastry]

Although I myself don't ride brevets very often, I agree with all the naysayers. 10k upfront seems like a terrible waste of money when all they are trying to do is make merry of the monopoly situation. And the whole penalising just because you do not agree with them part is just plain absurd. This would never work and split us up into many non ACP groups.

Venkat, I'm in for your project.

[Opendro]

I have expressed this already to Chidu in private group. Brevet popularized long distance cycling due to its simplicity, not vert challenging and yet not so easy and tempting overall. The moment simplicity is removed, neither the hardcore guys will ride (because it is not very challenging) nor will the curious and excited mass (because too much overhead of fees, club registration, planning for the year).

I said this while acknowledging that brevet organizers and representatives have done a fantastic job in these past few years. As the number of clubs and riders increase, the key is to simplify the process, which is where I had expressed admiration of the IISc Rand - use enthusiastic riders to recce and mark routes and put up a system where ride registration happens, reduce volunteers to the minimum, reuse previous years routes. That leaves only the part of homologation.

And your idea of a BB homologation is truly awesome. Some new riders might really fancy a medal from ACP or whatever. But for most of us (or at least for me), we need a place where our rides are recorded. We already have a record of all finishers. That in itself is the medal.

[Opendro]

Rafi, it was me, who mentioned about a lunch in a small restaurant and a movie in cinema or rental. A movie on rent itself cost 120 (for blu ray) or minimum 100 for a DVD rental unless I take up a scheme. But I didn't say those to make you shut up :-P I still think that BBCh is of a different category, primarily a race, that involves more logistics - permissions, manning, marshaling, timing, etc. etc. which may not be complicated, but has the potential to lead to ugly scenes as the competition increases. Anyway, I said this in the context that I was having too much fun out of BBCh races. My coming days will not see me racing in BBCh as I want to spend some volunteering time before I fade away from it. That is my small way of being grateful to the event that gave me so much fun.

In my opinion, what was happening to BBCh was that it started as a fun race and turned into a pro race, which necessitated those logistics. That is where BAR could fill the gap - start another fun race platform.

It has drifted away from the main topic. To come back to the topic, I see that Divya is planning to organize C2C and K2K races alternating the years. I would suggest that she should charge a premium fee there and dedicate more time there to make ultra distance races a reality in India and leave brevet as the simple crowd puller. I'm in fact really excited about the K2K as it has the potential to make a race of its own kind with high altitude snow mountains as part of the route. My opinion is that people will try their hand in simple events like brevet and some hungry endurance guys will eventually participate races like the K2K. That is the way to go.

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

Please keep the feedback coming folks. we value every bit of it. And more importantly,  I see ourselves( the folks in Bangalore organizing brevets) as custodians of the activity -- organizing brevets. Since brevets are non supported rides , the cost has to be low, and that is the model followed worldwide.

Mostly thanks to the IISc guys, esp Sreepathi, we've evolved a system where we have kept the costs low. And I see it as important that we continue to do so. But we also need to hear from the community as to what people think. If you are not comfortable raising your views in a public forum, please mail me (or any of the organizers) directly.  Your identity will be withheld when I collate the viewpoints.

Regards
Chiddu
http://vaccinerisks.wordpress.com

http://chiddu2k.wordpress.com

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:32 AM, R. Venkatachalam <r.venka...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mohammad Rafi Shaik]

Hello Chiddu,

Is it true that decision is already taken and its just a information to make us mentally ready for the next season? 

This post got 158 views and only 15 people are involving in the discussion. I am not sure why many regular randonneurs in our community are silent, Are you fear of getting banned??  too busy??  not following this post??.. Our Silence can send a message that we are ok for the new changes. 

With regards

Mohammad Rafi

[Prashanth Chengi]

Hi Sree,

Is it me you meant when you said this:

"I have seen some comments from non-BB organizers that they can simply

pass on the charges to their riders so this is not a big thing. This
"us-vs-them" attitude is very poor and anti-randonneur."

Why mention non-BB organizers? Don't their opinions count? Don't you see that you yourself are making this an "us-organizers vs them-non-organizers" issue ? If that's not the intention, I don't see any reason for bringing up the non organizer status in the point you were making.

Secondly, randonneuring and even the hallowed ACP is a part of bicycling and not the other way around. My point was simply this; things should not get anti-biking.  In the thoughts and opinions that have come up in this very thread, one can see that there is a lot of fear and apprehension about getting on banned lists etc for even voicing an opinion that doesn't find favor among the 'ones in charge'.  Considering that there is a French angle to all this, it's greatly ironic, given the fact that it was the famous French philosopher Rousseau who started his most famous work 'The Social Contract' with the lines 'Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains'.  (I don't think even he meant bicycle chains :D)

My point was simply this:
People should have the option to choose what they want and not be forced to pay for things not relevant to them. I don't think this is anti anything. 

To give an analogy,  it's like a bunch of people going to a restaurant.  A few order simple rice plate and others a fancy three course Mughlai dinner followed by dessert.  It's really unfair to say that the bill should be evenly split among everybody.

/Prashanth

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Chidambaran Subramanian]

The decision definitely has not been  *accepted* by me, and quite a few of the organizers. It is my considered view that such a decision cannot be taken by one person or one hastily constituted body purporting to represent the majority of randonneurs. I put the discussion in a public domain because I need the view of the majority of riders.

My thought (and few others) is that this is not what the community needs If the proposed changes take effect, then I am clear that i won't be part of the organizing group (for ACP events) next year. Hope I am clear. 

We can create BB events at low cost and certify folks. But it won't count towards riding in France. Unfortunately.

Regards
Chiddu
http://vaccinerisks.wordpress.com

http://chiddu2k.wordpress.com

[R Venkatachalam]

To make it more clear, why not have a generic name like 'long distance cycling club' and organize our own rides, and shrug off the 'B' tag. That ways no one is confused while making a choice to ride with PBP in mind.

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Best Regards,
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[Aravind M S]

10K upfront is real absurd. This will really discourage a rider like me to participate in further Brevets if this were to be implemented.

Regards,
Aravind.

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[Prashanth Chengi]

I think the 10k is for the 'Club' and not individual.  The original mail talks about a separate annual rider membership fee of 500-600 INR, but it's completely vague about whether the charges are the same if there are 50 members or 5000, for instance.

/Prashanth.

[Opendro]

I second that. However, for riders to have the same sense of achievement, the format has to be either same or slightly tighter than the ACP format. Or we could simply make our rules and distances that are capable of living up on its own.

[anantha viswanathan]

I cannot imagine myself paying the amounts talked about in the new changes..(10,000 Inr i guess..sorry didnt read into the longish thread properly).

Writing here just in case my vote is going to count:)

I would instead do long distance with my friend's because i wouldn't care if the ride is ACP approved or whatever.

A local body organizing long distance rides would be an outcome of this price hike.

cheers

anantha

[Ravindra BR]

10K is a huge money, really difficult to do with such fees

[R Venkatachalam]

10k is not huge if we amortize over 400 riders.

The amount blood Chiddu and other organizers might have to spill for making themselves heard will not be worth it. So easier to pay if we are hell bent on acp approved rides

[Jayaprakash E]

If I am reading it right, 10K charged to the clubs. For individuals the fee would be around Rs 800 to 1000 for a single ride. I still consider it is expensive. With medal it will go upto Rs.1500, which does not make it atrractive.

[kiran]

I agree with JP,  

My guess is about 20 to 25 may opt for ACP approved rides, but  +200 riders will go for Ride2Mysore for idly vada coffee

60+ riders have registered for 1200 km just for the great route.  Probably the same would ride next year too even if its not ACP approved

[R. Venkatachalam]

Well, only needs some initiative. We can as well do a 200k this Saturday with no approval, registration, medals etc and figure out things as we move along. May be start with a rudimentary document where we push all the riders name for this Saturday, and riders come back and say if they have completed or not. Later piggy back on IR software to formalize, make rules, manufacture pins etc. May be call this ride as 200 pins. No using any French words for sure for such rides, club etc :P

[anup rao yellur]

this is what i understand 

• Annual Club Membership - 5000/- per annum to be paid at start of ACP year -  CLUB pays this  annually
• Deposit - likely to be the same - CLUB pays this annually
• Brevet Fee - 500/- per brevet that is submitted to the calendar and.  CLUB  pays this  per brevet 
• Homologation Fee  - 100 rs -RIDER PAYS this 
  
• Any changes to Brevet dates and routes will carry a fee --   CLUB pays this 
• Annual Rider Membership Fee - 5 or 600/- per annum to be paid to AIR -- RIDER pays this anually 
• Temporary Rider Fee - 150-200/-  if one doesnt pay the Annual Rider Membership Fee - Rider pays this 
• Last years Fees will also be due as soon as possible for me to take payments.-- ??? DONT KNOW 2013-2014 ?

• All payments will be through a payment gateway on the website. Unless you make the payments as required whatever process is pending will automatically be unavailable.

and obviously the club has to get all the cost via Riders as riders is what makes the club .

Now lets do some calculations for Bangalore brevets .

assuming 300 rides for the club by the members and 12 brevets a season   

(5000+5000+ 6000 (12*500)+ 2000 ( assuming 4 changes in brevet dates and routes ) ) /300 = 18000/300= 60 extra for a brevet could be charged for a person and 100 for homolgation 

deposit to be reused from the following year , so deduct 5000 for the next seasons . which doesnt look much 

and the only extra that riders will have to pay is 600 rs annually and 160 rs extra / brevet .

which doesnt look much , BUT

Now going to what AIR will earn

5000*14 ( number of clubs)=90000 ( and   90000 in deposit )

500*14*8 ( avg number of brevets)=56000

600*14*50( avg member /club )= 4,20,000 per year 

+ lots of homolgation fees

Just assumptions , please correct me if im wrong 

Regards

anup

[Opendro]

This looks somewhat okay if the rule says that every rider will pay extra Rs. 160 per brevet towards AIR. Problem comes when it is upfront Rs. 600 per annum per rider or Rs. 10000 per club per annum. Club may/will eventually get the money from rider, but it puts unnecessary strain on the club to recover the cost.

Besides, once the a system is in place, even extra Rs. 160 per brevet looks too much unless it is towards a recurring cost.

[kiran]

It is unfortunate that we are looking narrowly only at INR part.

Look at the subtle  or clear message in Sree mail and Venkat's mail (blood spill) and Chidus message not to be part.

Democratization, rotation of responsibilities, end of monopoly, small club to be able to survive.

Although my involvement in organizing is zero I can make out the frustration.  So knowing the selfless working of these guys and of course other volunteers I would vote it down.

[anup rao yellur]

nobody is denying their invaluable contribution, everybody  here agrees unanimously on sreepathi's , iisc folks, chiddu and others  contribution to make the brevets so damn cost effective in bangalore  . 

these numbers also gives a small reason to deny the changes  .

regards

anup

[Meera Velankar]

Having done BRM rides in more than 5 clubs across India, I can say that these rides differ from organizer to organizer and riders are at the total mercy of single person (in few cases).

1. We need to have people who can form small team and do it responsibly for any single ride.

2. I agree with Sreepathi and Rafi also that we need team of people on national level , like results we need to see accounts.

I will not be doing anymore Brevets ( if i can resist it) in India next year (due to the fact that it is too cryptic) but all the best to those who plan to attempt PBP 2015!

[Sreepathi Pai]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 3:01 AM, Prashanth Chengi
<prashant...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Sree,
>
> Is it me you meant when you said this:
> "I have seen some comments from non-BB organizers that they can simply
> pass on the charges to their riders so this is not a big thing. This
> "us-vs-them" attitude is very poor and anti-randonneur."
>
> Why mention non-BB organizers? Don't their opinions count? Don't you see
> that you yourself are making this an "us-organizers vs them-non-organizers"
> issue ? If that's not the intention, I don't see any reason for bringing up
> the non organizer status in the point you were making.

Hi Prashanth,

BB == Bangalore Brevets. There are other clubs in the country which
also organize brevets. I'm talking about *some* organizers from
*those* clubs. In particular, I am not talking about you for sure, if
I was, I would name you since you are active in this thread.

I hope you now see that your second question is moot. It's not a
us-organizers vs them-non-organizers. It's some organizers vs other
organizers, where the "other" section of organizers is rationalizing
and accepting this attempt to exploit randonneurs who don't have a
voice.

So I was not talking of non-organizers here. I was talking about this
artificial wedge being pushed in where some organizers are separating
themselves as a "superior" social group in what should remain a
community of equals. That alleged abuses of power have taken place is
symptomatic that AIR is not accountable to lay randonneurs.

While you make valid points about general cycling, etc., BBC has a
huge tendency to derail threads and take off into OT topics (though it
has matured significantly). Therefore I have not responded to those
issues. I'd appreciate if you form a new thread for those topics.

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Ravindra BR]

thanks venkatachalam for the clarification and anups mail clarified it a little more

[Sreepathi Pai]

Anup, those numbers are eye opening.

I usually have a suggestion to those who form grassroots societies:
don't get too rich or the politicos will come knocking.

@kiran, you're right. It's not about the money. It's about control. Do
we want to live in a democratic society or an imperialistic one?

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Jayaprakash E]

People act blind in the lust of power. Acting like my way or the high way will not help to build/improve organizations. Though I am not an organizer, I loved to participate or volunteer the events. From a facebook reply it looks like henceforth the events are only for the professionals, not for the cyclists.

[Nagaraj mr]

Doesnt make any sense to me considering the pain that organizer go through and a risk that riders take it on highway. In France and other regions brevets doesn't happen on highways.

I am done with this. No Brevets for me if they come up with such ridiculous fees.

Yes, I have done quite a number of brevets.

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:51 PM, Jayaprakash E <jaya...@gmail.com> wrote:

People act blind in the lust of power. Acting like my way or the high way will not help to build/improve organizations. Though I am not an organizer, I loved to participate or volunteer the events. From a facebook reply it looks like henceforth the events are only for the professionals, not for the cyclists.

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[Mohammad Rafi Shaik]

@anup,

Nice assumption, You forgot interest cumulation on the amount :P

@Organisers

Is it true that you will be paying additional fines(For late submitting brevet cards,Mistakes in brevet cards, change int the date/routes). If yes, It is accounting into the head pocket or AIR?

with Ragards

Mohammad Rafi

[Opendro]

Don't worry Rafi. Organizers can recover that amount from riders who didn't start and from riders who didn't finish - in the form of another penalty ;)

[Mohammad Rafi Shaik]

Hello Bikers,

Good day!

Some good guys are working in the back ground to bring back the BRM structure to regular economical mode, keeping away from getting commercialized. Dont worry about ban, Please share your feedback to Chiddu by mail.  

with regards

Mohammad Rafi

With regards
Mohammad Rafi

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[Satya Balakrishnan]

Hi All,
I am not much of a randonneur, but have done 3 200k brevets successfully and attempted the anchetti one unsuccessfully. I would not pay any annual fees mentioned in that post (10k - ridiculous!) and do not care much about homologation (I did not even know what that meant before doing brevets!!!) by a French Body ... I would gladly do the local Bangalore Brevets routes (like the gauribidnur one) ... Thats my 2 paisas,
Regards
Satya

[kiran]

My understanding from the other mail (love letter to Chidu :-)

1. Assumption that those who ride ACP approved rides are serious of going to PBP.  Money is not a problem 

2. Do not want others to run it.  As she mentions that she does not want do it free of cost for another year and need to be paid for the same.

3. 2 of them have consulted website developer and know what to do.  They have the capacity to put the process in place.  

4. This is what it is, and have asked the respective club organizers to pass on the message to riders.

What others want is community / volunteer driven like ride2mysore or cycle day etc etc.

[Anil Kadsur]

• Like i said i don't care for people wanting a freebie when they have 50,000/- to 2 lakh worth of equipment on them.

• • let's say SR brevets and membership costs about 4000/- is 4% towards costs here in India too much??

If that is the logic what if someone rides 'MyBike' and 4% of that makes it Rs. 160....

very truly,

anil s kadsur,

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

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[Sreepathi Pai]

Sorry, but:

https://i.imgur.com/q0jPyYx.jpg

;-)

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Abhi Srivastava]

If there

s a cost involved, there should be a safety vehicle for long distances, there should also be proper food supply at the time station, and any sort of medical help on call 

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 5:56 PM, kiran <hebbar...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Sreepathi Pai]

I understand what you're saying, but that goes against the
self-supported ethos of randonneuring. India will be the only country
to babysit its riders then. I know a lot of current organizers do this
and I always wonder, have the riders been informed that none of that
is necessary?

--
Sreepathi Pai

[Silvesterrajpaul Josephjayapaul]

I thought continuing as a Randonneur in ...if the new rules coming into act ....I ll be nowere in randonnering ...it affects newbies also as well, whom has thought of attempting it.      Then I ll go for weekend rides ...with fellow riders