Hey RAAM.....!!!

[Anil Kadsur]

Bikers,

The leader at 20.96 mph (already covered 628 miles so far at that pace considering all the climbs) what a pace for that distance....

http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/rcrank.php?s_N_category_group=1&s_N_Race_ID=1

Sumit Patil from India seems to be doing good so far....

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Opendro]

Nice title Anil. First I was imagining since when you turned communal... Ok, RAAM is still suckular LOL

[Vijay Srinivas]

Is it only me or does everyone knows who's taking the title this year...?? What happened to dani wyss,reto schoch or marko baloh...???

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[Venkatesh N]

Marko Baloh is riding the shorter RAW(Race Across the West) this year and is making great progress. If I remember correctly Reto is crewing for some other participant this year. Looks like Christoph Strasser is racing against himself this year.

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govenkygo.com

[Opendro]

In the female solo, Shusanah Pillinger is slowly moving up the ranks and closing in the gaps with the lead riders.

I think Agni is moving too slowly. At this pace, it is doubtful though there is a lot of time to recover and plan ahead - required pace average is 10 miles per hour. If covering just the required distance is the strategy, that is great plan though he has to plan for the climbs ahead and any unexpected things ahead.

[Sandeep]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Opendro <ope...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think Agni is moving too slowly. At this pace, it is doubtful though there is a lot of time to recover and plan ahead - required pace average is 10 miles per hour. If covering just the required distance is the strategy, that is great plan though he has to plan for the climbs ahead and any unexpected things ahead.

The leader is at 20 and that too will drop to around 15 by the end of the race(going by previous years). I agree that Agni seems to be going very slow for a race, gives him very less time to sleep/rest over the next 10.5 days.

[anand raman]

I hope that he is doing OK and that there no issues plaguing the team. I guess completing should be the ultimate goal. 

a

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[Sreepathi Pai]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 10:47 AM, anand raman <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:

> guess completing should be the ultimate goal.

At what point does the goal become "winning"? What can we do to
accelerate that adoption of that goal?


--
Sreepathi Pai

[anand raman]

Thats a great question. However I given that we (indians) have failed on previous 2 occasions this is an very acceptable position from my perspective. Winning should be a goal perhaps after we open our account 

thanks

anand

[MJV]

You are right Venky, Christoph is riding his own race with Reto his best opponent decided to call it a day in RAAM. He is crewing his cousin Otto this year i believe but not sure. But an article in RAAM website mentioned about Reto's trouble to get sponsors. And he has retired from ultra cycling i believe. An old article:

http://www.ridefarther.com/index.php/29-blog/october-2013/117-reto-schoch-says-i-do-adieu

_MJV_ 

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 1:28:36 PM UTC+5:30, BikeyVenky wrote:

[MJV]

And Marko has won RAW!

http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/rcrank.php?s_N_category_group=1&s_N_Race_ID=3

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 1:28:36 PM UTC+5:30, BikeyVenky wrote:

[Opendro]

The fact that RAAM winners don't get any prize and participation expense is exorbitant would deter any serious cyclists from making winning as a goal unless the cyclist is already extremely fit working for some other goal and thus race this as a bonus pride.

[Anil Kadsur]

Opendro,

 "working for some other goal and thus race this as a bonus pride."

even then that race has to be bigger than this then only it makes sense to do that, otherwise it may not help i feel....

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

--

[Opendro]

"Bigger" in what sense? As I mentioned, RAAM winner does not anything. Even BBCh race winners get better prizes than RAAM winner.

So, why would one want to race RAAM or even try to win RAAM. That has to be only to make a statement or just for the sake of proving that I can do it or just because someone has got loads of money and does whatever pleases him.

BTW, googling "why do people race in RAAM" out of curiosity brought this article : http://www.adventurecorps.com/when/raam/raamlies.html So true.

[Anil Kadsur]

1. "Bringing RAAM down to earth is the mission here. RAAM's great and I love it, there's no doubt, but it's not the toughest thing in life. We'll reserve that accolade for life itself."

@Opendro,

very interesting read, thank you for sharing....above line was very powerful one....

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[suman paul]

"Even BBCh race winners get better prizes than RAAM winner."

Really !!!


Oh Opendro, You made the day 😄😄😄



thank you & regards

suman

+91 9886300685

[Kavitha Kanaparthi]

Anil, BTW, that 'line' is by the person who claims Badwater is the toughest race on the planet, and we certainly reserve our opinions on that as well. It is tough, no doubt, and I have been to Badwater race, and I have been to RAAM. RAAM is bloody tough, excuse my sentiments. If one has the strength of mind, body and spirit, to get to the finish line, there is almost nothing in life one cannot face. 

From experience, stating goals is easier than reaching those goals. And, determination and ego alone have never gotten anyone anywhere without preparation and the right attitude. 

Also, a word of caution - There will be a lot of newcomers reading your mails/posts/comments. Be responsible when you are making statements. When you don't understand something, try to experience it and know about it before you state your opinion as facts. Whether you realize it or not, RAAM has brought on the interest in long distance cycling in India, and brevets came post that. 

Happy cycling, and see you all tomorrow at the BBCh race. Looking forward to finding what prizes are in store!

Best

Kavitha.

[Sreepathi Pai]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 12:21 AM, Kavitha Kanaparthi
<ksim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whether you realize it or not, RAAM
> has brought on the interest in long distance cycling in India, and brevets
> came post that.

I agree with your sentiments regd. RAAM, but historically, brevets
happened before RAAM in India.

Most people ride brevets not for RAAM, but for the PBP. Brevets do not
prepare one for RAAM (physically) unless the riders are aim and
achieve a R60 (i.e. complete a full series in 60% of time).

And quite frankly, a fully-supported race like RAAM does not really
compare to a unsupported ride like the PBP.

Once I see a PBP vedette from India (sub-45 hour), I'll believe we
have a chance in RAAM.

It stupefies me that people who ride brevets in the most unspectacular
manner want to go to ride the RAAM. The gap between the competitive
resumes of the top riders in RAAM like Christoph Strasser and Jure
Robic who have broken world records and our sportsmen who've never
really done anything worth mentioning is massive. Once we upgrade our
standards we may have a chance, otherwise we'll have to sit back and
hope our riders simply cross the finish line.

P.S.: A very long time ago, I've participated in south-asian regional
finals of a non-athletic competition and was wiped out by teams from
Singapore and China. The standards they displayed and the effort they
put in their training left me humbled. Since then, figuring out
exactly what "world-class" means is a bit of an obsession. Direct
exposure is not easy to obtain.

P.P.S.: I have great respect for our athletes who overcome a lot to
just participate in these events. Their lives could be made much
smoother than they are today. What I don't like is the mismanagement
of expectations/standards that leads to disappointment all around.

--
Sreepathi Pai

[deepakvrao]

Kavitha,

Your one line:

From experience, stating goals is easier than reaching those goals.

is what I believe sums up a lot very simply. I have said the same recently on another thread regarding the ironman events.

[Anil Kadsur]

Sorry to know the status....

It is DNF

http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/rcrank.php?s_N_category_group=1&s_N_Race_ID=1

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Opendro]

I cannot comment on RAAM as of yet as I have not attempted a distance like that. But looking at the required pace, it does NOT look challenging. You guys have to wait till similar event comes to India. I will be the first to register if the fee is within 50K. I don't want to spend tons of money going elsewhere just to finish.

Doc, on the ironman, I said that it is not challenging way back in 2011. And I achieved a similar distance triathlon in Chennai (conducted by CTS) last December, well within 18 hours as the organizers gave the cut off as 20 hours given the conditions and I was not really making an effort to make it within 17 and my legs were still able to sprint at the end.

My preparation for the ironman distance triathlon-
 - swimming : zero km practice on swimming. I'm a noob in swimming though I know how to float very well, but very bad from a professional's point of view - I don't kick legs, I keep my head above water.... but damn. It is just 3.9 km.
 - cycling : zero if I discount the BBCh endurance XC in November.
 - running : well.. I cannot say zero, because I did the half marathon the weekend before, conducted by life is calling. And I also run about 3 km alternate days, two weeks prior to most big events. So, I did the same. I might have added a few extra km in parks when I was in mood... but nothing substantial I can recollect.
 - nutrition : bananas and bananas plus gatorade.

I don't want to demean many good and passionate athletes. I don't consider an athlete for the limitations I have and I don't stand anywhere compared to the innumerable athletes around. But painting an event as very tough just because we cannot get our hands on it is just not right.

Anyway, I will still not dismiss RAAM like distance until I try my hands on it. But on the facts - it is just a 10 miles an hour average with support vehicle. Or to put things into perspective - 400 km per day with support. That is how I see. On the contrary, brevets without support means preparing for rains, mechanical failures, sleeps in cold night, etc. pose serious challenge, specially in stormy season.

[Kavitha Kanaparthi]

Opendro, 

You seriously need to stop in those tracks before I tirade happens, here, including mine. RAAM is not stated as being tough because of its cost factor, or because you cannot get your hands on it. 

Good luck with your races and congratulations on your achievements. It really helps if you think through your statements and opinions by applying what is being said. 

These races are tough, because, they are TOUGH! There is a reason why Globeracers is bent on keeping RAAM qualifiers on the tougher side. There are other RAAM qualifiers in India now, which give you an opportunity to qualify, without fail. 

Before I start a huge discussion here, I'll take this mail out of my inbox. Its not just about opinions but the lack of knowledge and experience that is really killing sport and support to athletes in India. Think about it Opendro.

Best wishes,

Kavtha. 

[Anil Kadsur]

Hi Kavitha,

I got your point, my sincere apologies i never ever dis-respect anything which i have not tried my hands (simple i do not know what it takes.....have no moral right to comment on it), will be lot more careful next time when i am writing something, thank you for making me realize that aspect.

anil s kadsur

http://kadsur.blogspot.in/

[Opendro]

Well Kavitha, I would be really sad if you take such discussions personally than objectivity. I don't keep BBC posts in my inbox. So, you can delete the same. BTW, I don't have any achievement that you can even congratulate me on. I choose events where I can dream of winning and yet come somewhere at some insignificant place.

I didn't say that these distances are easy. For the record, let me repeat what I said ealier:

To judge an event correctly, the event should be something capable people can get access to and it should be something attractive to them (including cost). For instance, 24 hours challenge in Bangalore ultra by paying 7K and at the end to win nothing is not attractive. Same way, going all the way to America to win nothing is not attractive to the really good athletes (again not me).

Nothing personal here. I hope you understand that. I would be the first to sign out if it gets personal. Making enmity is not my habit.

[Opendro]

Before someone sensed it as bragging, let me tell you. I can barely swim at half the speed of Dipankar, can barely cycle at two third speeds of Nagaraj, hadn't even dreamed of attempting Richard's running speed. I wrote about this event just to prove my point better. I have only one bullet to fire and that is over now :-)

[Shyam Sundar S Iyer]

I just remembered something from  T S Elliot...looking at the retro on this topic and views and reviews....

 

Dust in the air suspended Marks the place where a story ended.

 

Its been true for many of us trying our level best in whatever sport we want to push with our limits or out of it....and most of the time for the common athletes from the sub contintent it has been the Mind....we limit ourselves and beliitle our capacity.....We give up!!!

 

In endurance sports its the mind....and the mind should perform better....when it has all reasons to shut down.

 

 

[Opendro]

Very well said about endurance. In contrast, a 100m dash or 10K sprint are not about minds. They are purely adrenaline. For commute riders like us, endurance rides should be done the way Sandeep does his brevets - plan the entire course in the head, prepare for eventualities and utilize the allotted time to the fullest.

[Kavitha Kanaparthi]

Well, Opendro, the way I see it, as an athlete, I am not looking for something at the end of the race, prize money or the medal, and, I am an athlete. Those are not the reasons that make a race tough, not tough, or inaccessible. Races are not to be made accessible. You want to do it, find a means to do it. 

Absolutely nothing personal. Races are of all kinds, and trying to force them to be coming out of an assembly line so we can rush to the start lines isn't exactly what appeals to an athlete, endurance or not. 

Best wishes,

Kavitha. 

[Opendro]

Very true to your nature! Having known you for a while, as a hard worker towards your passion and sports, I have to admit that line. I always make statements as a neutral without keeping anyone/group in mind. I kind of agree that such statements sometimes sound insensitive to the people who really matter in the field.

[deepakvrao]

Agree with all that Kavitha has said.

'Just' 400 kms a day? Have you any clue about the conditions, the wind, the climbs, the heat, the cold, the region they race thru?

The RAAM is a tough race, because it is tough, not just because it is expensive to do. Of hand brushing off these races as 'only expensive' but not tough is so amazing to my mind.

You think Samim as well as the current DNF guy are crap cyclists? You think you are better  them, or that many in Bangalore will be able to do RAAM as long as they can afford the expenses?

[Hari Krishna]

Folks, it's a monday morning. Please call off this fight and have a peaceful week!

With discussions like these and our all time favourite vaccination-anti-vaccination brawls, BBC is soon becoming Bangalore Brawlers Club.

Sent from my iPhone

[deepakvrao]

Anti vaccine, I can understand. This is cycling related. No one is forcing anyone to read.

[Kavitha Kanaparthi]

Thank you, Opendro. Appreciate  you understanding. 

On a last note; It is very very tough to find support for races that sponsors consider as a no-return investment, no realizing that these athletes actually bring a revolution in the way a sport is looked at. Not touching the topic of whether RAAM or Brevets are popular in India, ahead of each other, Samim, by having dreamt to do RAAM, PBP and BMB as a way to let young folks know that limits when pushed open up a whole world we do not know about. By doing so, today, look at the number of riders who train and plan for Brevets, folks wanting to have the RAAM qualified tag and the contingent at PBP? By projecting a thought of these races being mere boosters for the organizers, we actually do a lot of damage to the foundation on which the sport blooms and thrives in a new region. 

Next time around, look to support these athletes who are aiming high, for the sake every athlete, old, new, and yet to be born. Contribute in any which way you can, time, money, effort included and see how you change the landscape. 

Hari, no, no one is fighting. Healthy discussions can actually happen as well, when those discussing are mature enough to handle feedback when it doesn't go with their own flow of thought. 

Best

Kavitha. 

[Gautam Raja]

>But on the facts - it is just a 10 miles an hour average with support vehicle.

And summiting Everest is just an 8.5km hike with sherpas. 

[deepakvrao]

LOL. Spot on.

[Opendro]

I don't know the conditions. But I assume they are not too bad as the leaders were riding at an average of 36 kmph in the initial days.

Samim completed the distance though missed a "Finished" tag by 40 minutes. Hats off to him! He has inspired many, not just by RAAM, but by his standard of brevets too. To answer your question, I am NOT better than Samim. But I don't know the current guy.

For guys attempting PBP, the very "least" thing to do before going all the way to France is to do the Bangalore 1000 km brevet in June end or July early or 1200K on 8th October if the route includes Ooty, Munnar, Kodai and Yercaud. I will definitely register for the later if the route is finalized on the same. I'm not an athlete, but a parent of two school going kids and having a full time job. But I too love to test myself and for that I need opportunities. Same goes for many people in this group.

[Opendro]

Throw in a decent prize and there will be many lined up for the same. Simply doing some stunt and making it sound an impossible task is not right.

Why would anyone want to do the summit? It is purely passion. It is probably tough, but nothing that an average guy cannot achieve with some training. Now, please don't ask me to do it first before saying the same.

[Shyam Sundar S Iyer]

I agree .....Show me the Money...!!!!

 

Any average Joe will be motivated to stunt....atleast to wake up and go for the ride!

[Kashyap Raval]

+1 Opendro

If a race is to judge human spirit/endurance/limits, it must be open to all humans equally. If tomorrow there is a triathlon of biking, motorbiking and car racing, the winner would be expected to be tough but the comparisions to rest of humans in this world would not be fair. I know many people capable of completing the ironman with ease who do not have the money to register for the same but have proven their endurance.
And Opendro, you can't disguise yourself as a normal being. You are far too famous as a tough chap on the bike and on foot :) (atleast in this community)

[Kashyap Raval]

When Africans weren't participating in olympics it were the whites (just stating, not being racist) that won the running events. Now they are swept off by the complementary. Swimming and biking are expensive sports (swimming in say kenya/ethiopia etc). If all of the world gets equal access to cycling(affording similar quality bikes), the bars will be raised and it would not be 400km/day but significantly more. That is the point I guess Opendro was trying to make. 

[Opendro]

Thanks Kashyap, I find at least someone who agrees. And that is from the man who cycled from Kanyakumari till Kargil on self support. I'm really elated LOL

This is going to be a rather long one trying to explain my position (opinion as well as capability) one last time.

Regarding me... everyone in this group knows where I stand, because they all have access to results of various races happening around Bangalore. I stand nowhere in a competitive sports. Doing brevets where there is no competition or where really tough guys are not interested is sort of consolation prize for me :) I have no illusion about myself. That is why I have often objected to friends when they even introduced me as the "only" finisher of Bangalore 1200K brevet or the "first" finisher 1200K brevet in India, because those attributes "only" or "first" are appropriate in the context of a race or activity where everyone, specially those physically strong ones, will be interested. Neither brevet nor RAAM is. As one of the link I sent explained, raising a kid is far more challenging and yet everybody does it though not equally successful in that. Hahaa. Everybody does it because they have to. But they don't have to do brevet or RAAM. Don't mistake me, I'm not backing out from what I promised. I will still be the first to register for any RAAM equivalent if that happens in India. How can doing something that does not give any material reward be the benchmark of toughness?

If I'm nobody, then why the hell do I spoil the party of the concerned people? I think I do it because people are not able to separate the simple things from the harder ones. This, in my opinion, will discourage or frighten people rather than encourage them. I have been trying to run a 10K in 40 minutes (my PB being about 41 minutes) and trust me it is easier to even finish a 100K run than reducing a minute from my 10K time. Similarly, I had tried to average 40km on cycle on a 20 km course over the last two years and had miserably failed, yet I had quite fresh legs after a 1000 km brevet. Doing endurance at a pace which is quite humanly average can be achieved if both planning and mental determinations are there. That is why good athletes try to do at a respectable pace in such events, not just finish. For them, it is not even worth finishing it if the pace is not respectable. They will rather quit - even if the finish line is just a step away (in the extreme example).

If it is all about winning, why the hell do people race 10K or brevets in spite of knowing that they cannot win or it is not competitive? It is either passion (like hobby) or just the satisfaction of self testing. For me, TCS 10K is the only time when I will even do a 10K in the whole year. It is like that for many people - just an excuse, without which they just would not do. If I were motivated enough to run a 10K in the park in the early morning, I don't need to do a TCS 10K. But if somebody hasn't really attempted a 10K, it does not necessarily mean that 10K is an impossible for him. I ran my first ever 10K only in 2009 after becoming a father!

Some challenges are more of a practical hurdles specially if the challenge involves more time and money. When I heard that people pay 26K just to do TFN, I was like "what! you ask me to do at free of cost, still I would think twice". It neither serves as a tough challenge nor as a cheap touring. Besides, it takes nearly two weeks (if it starts mid-week) off the calendar. I'm sure it is the same case for many people. Even if it is given free, it is like those Rs. 2000 worth gift vouchers which can be redeemed on a purchase of 20,000 only on selected items! Hope, this line does not add more people to argue against me. I'm already at odds in this topic :-P

One last thing. Sree has mentioned about the R60, where one has to finish 200K, 300K, 400K and 600K brevets in one season in 60% of the allotted time. I don't think I can do all of the distances in one season. But I'm definitely attempting a 600K next year within 60% of the cut off time. If I do succeed in that, all arguments about how tough these bike rides should stop, because as I explained, I'm nobody in the racing scene and if Opendro can do it, any Joe should be able to do it if he is really interested in doing it. I will revisit this thread next year.

If you hare read this far, thank you. You can start bashing me if you wish so, but I'm running away for now :)

[Sreepathi Pai]

You can't hold a RAAM-equivalent in India, because India has nothing
that can substitute for the Rockies on the RAAM route. The Ghats are
simply not true mountains. Nor do Indian riders really ride in
temperatures approaching zero.

You know when Lam started saying you'd do the 1000K in R80 or
whatever, I challenged that because an R80 is not something you simply
wake up and do. If I were you I'd try the R80 on a 600 before I try
the R60 :) A R60 is a year "peak" goal, for which you train
exclusively for the whole year.

Personally, I think you misuse the word average. If athletic ability
is normally distributed among the population, there is simply no way
an "average Joe" + training can perform as well as the top 1% even if
given fair access. Training gets you to 95 percentile maybe, but every
percentile from then on is a huge slog (and comes at the cost of
everything else in life). You still do not see "socialist" nations
fielding their entire populations or random choices, right?

And the argument that there is some unknown talent in the world who if
given access will suddenly exceed all human limits recorded till now
stretches the realms of statistical plausibility. Given that most of
athletic populations fielded today at the Olympics are fairly
representative of the human population, I'm sure we're operating close
to natural human limits. Note this argument is only about the top
athletes.

It is clear from the discussion that standards are mis-calibrated, I'm
hoping the organizers (both current and would-be) will put on many
more events so as to make the general population more aware of the
effort it requires to truly excel at athletics.

Sreepathi Pai

[Sandeep]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Opendro <ope...@gmail.com> wrote:

But I'm definitely attempting a 600K next year within 60% of the cut off time. If I do succeed in that, all arguments about how tough these bike rides should stop, because as I explained, I'm nobody in the racing scene and if Opendro can do it, any Joe should be able to do it if he is really interested in doing it.

Challenge NOT accepted. Will only be accepted if you make a 600km route with more than 6000m of climbing for the R60 :-)

[Opendro]

On Monday, June 16, 2014 8:08:40 PM UTC+5:30, Sree wrote:

You know when Lam started saying you'd do the 1000K in R80 or
whatever, I challenged that because an R80 is not something you simply
wake up and do. If I were you I'd try the R80 on a 600 before I try
the R60 :) A R60 is a year "peak" goal, for which you train
exclusively for the whole year.

R80 is not worth a challenge specially if I'm allowed to choose the available route. R70 is fair game. R60 will be tough for my standard. That is what I'm going to do. I'm keeping my reserve of good will from home to do the 1200K Ooty route this year. So, you have to wait till next year. I do need two weeks of training. That is all I would ask for. I cannot afford to spend more than that.

 

Personally, I think you misuse the word average.

May be yes. May be not. That same thought came when I argued about the elephant issue in forest.

Average is not the average of the entire population. For example, what do you consider an average student's mark in a CBSE 10th exam? Say, 60%. I know, that is a first class. But how difficult is it to score that 60%. Ok, lets bring it down to 50%. Even that will still be much higher than the average of the entire number of candidates who wrote the exam.

When I say average, I assume that the person will be a healthy (all organs functioning perfectly and harmoniously and look pleasantly proportionate).  Add about an average amount of workout to that. For me, that average amount of workout is about 12 to 20 minutes on alternate days and at least for two weeks. That works to about a couple of hours of workout added together before the event. Additionally, I do my day to day work (household).

I think my definition is a reasonable one.

[Opendro]

I wanted to comment on this too and I missed it. You totally misunderstood my argument. Olympics are about excellence in the field, never about enduring an average task for prolonged period. The endurance activities we are talking about here should be a piece of cake for any athlete in Olympic level. Yes, Olympics are most probably operating close to natural human limits. I agree. They wouldn't be interested in any of these tasks.

[Ashok Kumar S]

+1.

Yeah, the fancy filthy rich guys in cosmic suits vs the real raw human power who can't even think about participating in these.... :)

regards,
Ashok