Re: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder

[Tom and/or Diane Strobel]

Neil,

Thanks for responding to my post. I did view your web site and was very impressed by your craftsmanship. That's what inspired me to do some minor work on my balalaika. I ordered a new set of tuning machines and strings through Imperskaya; it doesn't hold its tune well. Unfortunately Imperskaya doesn't carry the transom you mentioned; I guess I'll have to keep searching.

My balalaika (see attached) is not an expensive one by any means.By looking in the sound hole I can see a picture of a bird, with the word 'COBET' (Soviet?) and lots of Russian writing. I believe the date of manufacture is 29 May 1968. But as a guitar player and lover of Russian music I'm having fun learning about the instrument and learning to play some songs.

Thanks again for your help.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
>From: Neal <nealp...@comcast.net>
>Sent: Jan 17, 2009 2:36 PM
>To: "Balalaika, domra, bayan, accordion, garmoshka" <bala...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder
>
>
>Tom,
>
>Without a picture it's hard to tell what to recommend. Balalaikas
>don't really have a 'tailblock', but rather the transom is the entire
>bottom, generally about 1/2 to 5/8" thick, through which 3 holes are
>drilled for the pegs. See this picture for an example of the interior
>of a balalaika:
>
>http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/web_images/Balalaika_without_soundboard.jpg
>
>and this one for a shot of the exterior with the holes drilled:
>
>http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/web_images/Balalaika_stripped_sanded_before_finishing_1.jpg
>
>A tailblock is an "internal" piece typically in a guitar or uke, etc.
>
>I keep a web site which documents my rebuilding of a prima balalaika
>originally made at the Moscow Experimental Musical Instrument Factory
>if you're interested in looking it over. It will give you some ideas
>about the structure.
>
>http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/balalaika/
>
>Regards,
>
>Neal
>
>
>
>On Jan 17, 12:23 am, Tom <tomstro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone know where I can find a tailblock (string holder) for a
>> prima balalaika?  I currently have the type with 'hooks' for the
>> string loops to fasten to, but the hooks keep ripping my shirt!  I'd
>> like to find the kind that has three holes for pegs.
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> Tom
>
>>

[Neal]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the kind words. It was a labor of love, and I had no
instrument experience when I started.

Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough, *all* balalaikas have a transom,
it's the entire 'bottom' of the balalaika. In my pics you should be
able to see that it's nothing more than a thick piece (1/2 - 5/8")
with veneer on it. This is where your metal tailpiece is attached in
your first picture above. If you look closely at some of my pics, the
big difference is that I don't (and almost all balalaikas don't) have
a metallic tailpiece, but instead, in the same approximate location
(although frequently a little bit lower), have 3 holes bored (tapered
like in a steel string guitar bridge) with pins/pegs inserted. You can
use standard guitar bridge pins for this. The other thing to pay
particular attention to if you do decide to make some modifications is
that the spacing between the two E strings is different than between
the E and the A. It should be obvious if you look at:

http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/web_images/Completed_Balalaika_1.jpg

where the spacing will improve your ability to play. If all strings
are equidistant, then the E and A are too close together.

The Imperskaya tuners should help a lot (do they fit ok? or do you
have to re-drill the holes?), the Soviet tuners on these instruments
are notoriously bad. I replaced mine with a set I got from a friend in
Russia and it made a huge difference.

Best wishes with your project and don't hesitate to reach out if you
have any other questions.

Regards,

Neal


On Jan 18, 7:22 pm, Tom and/or Diane Strobel

<tomstro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Neil,
>
> Thanks for responding to my post. I did view your web site and was very impressed by your craftsmanship. That's what inspired me to do some minor work on my balalaika. I ordered a new set of tuning machines and strings through Imperskaya; it doesn't hold its tune well. Unfortunately Imperskaya doesn't carry the transom you mentioned; I guess I'll have to keep searching.  
>
> My balalaika (see attached) is not an expensive one by any means.By looking in the sound hole I can see a picture of a bird, with the word 'COBET' (Soviet?) and lots of Russian writing. I believe the date of manufacture is 29 May 1968.  But as a guitar player and lover of Russian music I'm having fun learning about the instrument and learning to play some songs.
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
> Tom
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Neal <nealpca...@comcast.net>
> >Sent: Jan 17, 2009 2:36 PM
> >To: "Balalaika, domra, bayan, accordion, garmoshka" <bala...@googlegroups.com>
> >Subject: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder
>
> >Tom,
>
> >Without a picture it's hard to tell what to recommend. Balalaikas
> >don't really have a 'tailblock', but rather the transom is the entire
> >bottom, generally about 1/2 to 5/8" thick, through which 3 holes are
> >drilled for the pegs. See this picture for an example of the interior
> >of a balalaika:
>

> >http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/web_images/Balalaika_without_soun...

>
> >and this one for a shot of the exterior with the holes drilled:
>

> >http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/web_images/Balalaika_stripped_san...

>
> >A tailblock is an "internal" piece typically in a guitar or uke, etc.
>
> >I keep a web site which documents my rebuilding of a prima balalaika
> >originally made at the Moscow Experimental Musical Instrument Factory
> >if you're interested in looking it over. It will give you some ideas
> >about the structure.
>
> >http://home.comcast.net/~nealpcarey/balalaika/
>
> >Regards,
>
> >Neal
>
> >On Jan 17, 12:23 am, Tom <tomstro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Hi,
>
> >> Does anyone know where I can find a tailblock (string holder) for a
> >> prima balalaika?  I currently have the type with 'hooks' for the
> >> string loops to fasten to, but the hooks keep ripping my shirt!  I'd
> >> like to find the kind that has three holes for pegs.
>
> >> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> >> Tom
>
>
>

>  IMG_3627.JPG
> 361KViewDownload
>
>  IMG_3633.JPG
> 2210KViewDownload
>
>  IMG_3632.JPG
> 2234KViewDownload

[Me Allan]

Hoi
My balalaika has a very similar tail piece wit the exception there is
a flange of metal going over the top to protect the base of the
strings or you from the strings. but mine can be either an alto or a
tenor depending on how I tune it (Tenor) from what i have been able to
determine is it was made in the late '40's or very early 50's and the
string base is not uncommon.

I am on the look out for another set of tuning machine
oh well you have a nice looking balalaika enjoy

Allan

[Tom and/or Diane Strobel]

Neal,

Now I get what you're saying about the transom and the string holders. I've never liked the metal tailpiece
and will use some of the extra guitar pegs I have to create a proper tailpiece.

I'm glad you mentioned about the 'a' string being further apart than the 'e' strings; I was totally unaware of
that (not the only thing, I'm sure!) The bridge on mine has the strings equally spaced. Part of the problem
is that I've never even seen a good balalaika up close so I'm relying on pictures. (I picked up mine at a garage sale.)

And yes, I did receive the Imperskaya tuners. Much nicer looking and tight, but they didn't fit so I
returned them; sounds like I may get them back as-is, in which case I'll reposition the holes. I've
also started stripping the finish off the back. A first for me. Quite daring considering the extent
of my work area is a 3' round table on our outdoor patio! Should be fun though. I'm retired, so I do
have the time. And I'm sure I'll be constantly referring back to your excellent website for advice!

Thanks again for all your help.

[Neal]

Tom,

The 'spread' between the string on mine is:

at the nut: 11mm between each string (equidistant)
at the bridge: 14mm between the E's, 22mm between the E and the A

Too bad you returned the Imperskaya tuners, he's the *only* person
that I'm aware of in the US where you can get balalaika tuners. You
really have to re-drill to make them fit. That's what I ended up
doing, but my replacement tuners are Russian-made. Regardless, they
are not standard spacing. When you do replace the strings you'll
notice a big difference. The metal strings are horrible sounding, and
a balalaika should be strung with a steel A and nylon E's. You can use
guitar strings as substitutes as well. Here's a set of recommendations
I read in Tcherkassky's French translation of the 'standard'
Necheporenko "School of Balalaika Playing":

1st String (‘A’ - 440Hz): steel guitar string size from .011" to .
013" (from 0.28mm to 0.33mm) (for children use from 0.09" to .010), in
Russia there are strings of 0.29 mm (.0115"). Typical use by
professionals in France are strings of .011 or .012 "according to the
preference of the musician.
Examples : Martin Bronze Strings (USA), light gauge, E or first,
0.012" ; Ernie Ball (USA), Custom Gauge String, 0.012 ; D'Addario
Guitar Strings (USA), E or First, 0.012".
Strings 2 and 3 (mid 329.63Hz in unison): nylon guitar strings (G)
3rds.
Examples : Augustine imperials (USA) (or Gold, Blue), Savarez nylon
(USA)

But, the strings that Imperskaya sells are very nice. I got a set of
carbon, Russian-import strings (same manufacturer) from Imperskaya and
I love them.

I started out just wanting to fix it up a bit, and look what
happened! :-) I think if you study the pics on my website you'll find
examples of most things you'll need.

Regards,

Neal

On Jan 22, 1:00 am, Tom and/or Diane Strobel

[Tom and/or Diane Strobel]

Allan,

Yes, my balalaika also has the flange to elevate the strings; when I finish fixing up my
instrument I will try to create a different, more standard string holder. So far I haven't had
much luck finding replacement parts. My balalaika was made in May 1968; I can't see
(or understand) much of the writing inside.

I recently bought a set of tuning machines from http://www.imperskaya.com/index.html.
The tuning machines were made well, MUCH nicer than the original ones. Unfortunately they didn't
fit my balalaika so I sent it back to see if he could match it up for me; if he can't I'll have
to re-drill the post holes so it will fit.

Thanks for your feedback.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
>From: Me Allan <am4...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 22, 2009 4:02 AM
>To: bala...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder
>
>

[M-M.K.A.]

I recently purchased an balalaika from Lark In The Morning, built in Romania. The luthier has stopped using the troublesome (and unattractive) pegs, and has substituted an small tailpieces used for mandolins. This gives the instrument a more refined, finished, professional appearance.   Marko Arcadia Way

[Neal]

Perhaps the pins are 'troublesome' and 'unattractive' to some, but the
balalaika is an 'extremely' traditional instrument and most would
argue that the pins are appropriate. The pins in my balalaika are
quite beautiful. Personally I think they are much more attractive than
a stamped metal mandolin tailpiece (FWIW, I play the mandolin and it
has such a tailpiece, and on a mandolin I think it quite appropriate,
but not for a balalaika). But, each to their own, as long as the
player is satisfied with the instrument, that's what really matters in
the end.

Regards,

Neal

[Neal]

Hi Allan,

Do you know where (which factory) your balalaika was made? I'm
curious. And what is the overall length and width? Sounds like it's
not a prima. The Luthier-made/Professional instruments I've seen all
are without any kind of metal tailpiece and are traditionally setup
with 3 holes drilled in the transom.

Regards,

Neal

[Tom and/or Diane Strobel]

Neal,

I did tell Boris to send back the Imperskaya tuners; I'll have to reposition the holes to make them work.

Your info on the strings will be very useful. I did buy a new set of balalaika strings; just have to figure out
how to loop the ends of the nylon strings, and create a tailpiece for the pins. I was hoping to get some specs for one
from James Flynn's PDF but no luck. Any suggestions?

Also (at the risk of becoming a pest) I have another question. I'm thinking about replacing the fretboard; mine
has 16 frets and I'd like to replace it with a full fretboard (24 frets?) Would I have to raise the existing fret
base to accommodate the different fretboard? I've found some sites that have blank fretboards, and sites that do
the fretting. But it may be too expensive. Might be wiser to buy a new one rather than spending too much on
redoing my present one. But it is fun though. (See, you've created a monster!)

Thanks so much for your help.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
>From: Neal <nealp...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 22, 2009 7:40 PM
>To: "Balalaika, domra, bayan, accordion, garmoshka" <bala...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder
>
>

>Tom,
>
>The 'spread' between the string on mine is:
>
>at the nut: 11mm between each string (equidistant)
>at the bridge: 14mm between the E's, 22mm between the E and the A
>

>Too bad you returned the tuners, he's the *only* person

>Regards,
>
>Neal
>

>On Jan 22, 1:00 am, Tom and/or Diane Strobel
><tomstro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Neal,
>>
>> Now I get what you're saying about the transom and the string holders. I've never liked the metal tailpiece
>> and will use some of the extra guitar pegs I have to create a proper tailpiece.
>>
>> I'm glad you mentioned about the 'a' string being further apart than the 'e' strings; I was totally unaware of
>> that (not the only thing, I'm sure!) The bridge on mine has the strings equally spaced. Part of the problem
>> is that I've never even seen a good balalaika up close so I'm relying on pictures. (I picked up mine at a garage sale.)
>>
>> And yes, I did receive the Imperskaya tuners. Much nicer looking and tight, but they didn't fit so I
>> returned them; sounds like I may get them back as-is, in which case I'll reposition the holes.  I've
>> also started stripping the finish off the back. A first for me. Quite daring considering the extent
>> of my work area is a 3' round table on our outdoor patio! Should be fun though. I'm retired, so I do
>> have the time. And I'm sure I'll be constantly referring back to your excellent website for advice!
>>
>> Thanks again for all your help.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Neal <nealpca...@comcast.net>
>> >Sent: Jan 21, 2009 8:52 PM

>> >To: "Balalaika, domra, bayan, accordion, garmoshka" <bala...@googlegroups.com>
>> >Subject: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder
>>

>> >> >To: "Balalaika, domra, bayan, accordion, garmoshka" <bala...@googlegroups.com>
>> >> >Subject: [balalaika] Re: tailblock, string holder
>>

[Me Allan]

Hello Neal, My apologies for the delay responding i do not always
read my email.. though i should..
Answer No I do not have a prima Though I did have one and it was
made in the early sixties in a factory in Moscow for export.. I sold
it..
the one of the two balalaikas I did keep can be used either as a tenor
or alto.. and there is no indication of a factory, russian friends all
have decided that it is probably hand made. maker unknown..
i love its tone as i have stripped off the bronze strings ans strictly
use high quality nylon strings,
I play it for my own entertainment when I am alone..

The tuner I found out was only avavliabe from about 1946 to 1953 and
the tail piece is nothing really fancy but it can handle up to 6
strings,

Dimensions:
LOA: 810 mm little over 32 inches
Base to nut: 670mm little less than 26.5 inches
fret board length is : 345 mm a little over 13.5 inches containing 18
frets with dots in the approprate location 5, 7, 12. and are set in
the proper location my bridge is set at 526mm which gives me exactly
proper tuning.

the neck is 30 mm to 45mm at the widest point.

the length along the base is 475 mm 18 3/4 inches with a depth of
110mm measured at 90 degrees.
the balalaika is simply made and of solid wood not plywood the inlay
is simple but nice very nice.

I am going to include a picture of my toy
Allan

[Neal]

Hi Allan,

Thanks for the info. Interesting. Based on the measurements it sounds
like a "Secunda" (I wasn't aware of the term Tenor), i.e. one size
larger than a "Prima".

Good point about the strings. Mine originally had all metal strings,
and it sounded terrible, but with a proper set of nylon E's and a
steel A it sounds really nice now. Of course, the complete rebuilding
really helped :-)

I curious about one other thing. The distance between the strings at
the bridge. Usually the E's are much closer together and the A is set
further apart, at least on a Prima. Is you spacing because of the way
a Sekunda or Alto is played?

Regarding the tuners, they are always a problem on the Soviet-era
instruments. Mine were terrible, but I was fortunate enough to have
someone in Russia send me several sets, so when I changed them it made
a big difference. There is also someone in the US who now sells
balalaika tuners (Chinese made imports), but it's the first time I'm
aware that *anyone* sold them here. I should order at least one set
just to compare them to my stash of Russian-made tuners.

Regards,

Neal

> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:43 AM, Neal <nealpca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Allan,
>
> > Do you know where (which factory) your balalaika was made? I'm
> > curious. And what is the overall length and width? Sounds like it's
> > not a prima. The Luthier-made/Professional instruments I've seen all
> > are without any kind of metal tailpiece and are traditionally setup
> > with 3 holes drilled in the transom.
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Neal
>
> > On Jan 22, 4:02 am, Me Allan <am4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hoi
> >> My balalaika has a very similar tail piece wit the exception there is
> >> a flange of metal going over the top to protect the base of the
> >> strings or you from the strings. but mine can be either an alto or a
> >> tenor depending on how I tune it (Tenor) from what i have been able to
> >> determine is it was made in the late '40's or very early 50's and the
> >> string base is not uncommon.
>
> >> I am on the look out for another set of tuning machine
> >> oh well you have a nice looking balalaika enjoy
>
> >> Allan
>
>
>

>  balalaikaI.jpg
> 57KViewDownload

[Neal]

Well, welcome to the club! It's really quite contagious, isn't it?

When you 'reposition' the holes you may want to consider putting on a
layer of veneer on the headstock to cover up. Of course, then you'd
have to refinish the headstock. But, be wary, one thing just keeps
leading to another!

I'd suggest re-reading James' treatment of the pin holes in the
transom, combined with our earlier discussion and I think you'll find
it will make more sense.

On the fretboard, that's how I started out! I just wanted a better
fretboard. Luckily mine was already full length. So, I took it off and
replaced it, custom made. It was quite an ordeal. Luckily I was able
to heat the fretboard enough to remove it. So, no, you don't raise the
level of the fretboard as that would impact the string angle and the
bridge, just like with a guitar. Your mission (if you decide to accept
it :-)) is to replace it, assuming the bottom of the fretboard can be
extended onto the soundboard. Again, I'd encourage you to look very
closely at the pictures on my web. This is not an activity for the
faint of heart. You could go two routes, either make your own
fretboard from scratch with an appropriate hardwood and medium
mandolin fretwire or buy a pre-slotted fretboard (17" scale) from
someone like Stewmac or LMII. Also note that if you go this route,
it's a lot of work. You then have to trim flush, refinish, etc. I
spent a *long* time rebuilding mine and it was spread out on the
dining room table for quite a while. I do have a shop in the garage,
but in the winter I have to 'come inside'!

As to your question about "Might be wiser to buy a new one . . ."
Maybe, as this approach can get expensive as well. But, it *is* fun!
You might look on EBay (see other posts here about being wary as much
of what's on EBay are inexpensive tourist models made for export), but
you might also check out Imperskaya. Boris sells 3 models. And they're
reasonable, mid-price instruments, compared to Luthier-made
instruments which are quite expensive. There's a big difference
between what Imperskaya sells and what you'll find on EBay. This is
not intended to be an advertisement for anyone in particular, but it's
just what I'd do if it were me. Balalaika is not the typical
instrument that you could find in any music store, unless you're
really lucky.

Good luck in your decision!

Best Regards,

Neal

On Jan 26, 12:57 pm, Tom and/or Diane Strobel

[Tom and/or Diane Strobel]

Thanks, Neal. Much to think about! Probably just get my current instrument back into playable
shape, then wait until our budget allows me buy a good balalaika.

But it is fun!

Thanks again,

[Me Allan]

Hoi Neal
You are right about the name,, but even though I live in the
Netherlands I am terrible with languages,, I speak english. Sucunda
was translated to tenor so that is what I use and it is capitable of
being either a sucunda or alto I have it set up the same as you have
yours with the two e's closer together but it is easier for picking.

I play for my self as i love the sound an and the richness so I just
really enjoy the sound,, and when i want to relax trying to develop
ideas in either oil or silver or just relax,, that is when I play my
toy.

My tuner is good and and is not a problem but being a worry wart I
would like at least a reserve.. one of these days I will find another
one.. .

where is it you Live?
Regards
Allan
Ps Neil, you can always email me directly if you want.

[Me Allan]

Hoi Neal,
I down loaded the pdf on making a balalaika and if the dimensions
given are correct what I actually have is an Alto. But I tune it like
a sucunda
Regards
Allan

[Pierre Le]

Hello,

 

A very good german craftman

 

http://www.andreas-gerth.de/

 

Write him from me

 

Best regards

 

Pierre from France

2009/1/28 Me Allan <am4...@gmail.com>