**Boys Speak Out On Man/Boy Love**
Roy Radow
**Now Available- Boys Speak Out On Man/Boy Love**
Providing a forum for voices that need to be heard, we have
compiled a 64 page book containing the letters and writings of youth
describing their own personal experiences with man/boy love.
Among those whose writings are included in this edition are
Miguelito de Argentina, aka Luis Fuentes, who has written for several
Acolyte Readers, and the then eleven year old Unicorn, the youngest
regular contributor to the NAMBLA Bulletin.
Thirty-seven letters, interviews, man/boy love poetry, and articles-
all written by the boys themselves!
Love & Loyalty, Friendship & Fun, and issues of Consent are only
some of the topics addressed in this intimate and essential publication.
"These boys paint a moving, unvarnished picture of true love,
oppression, and resistance" says editor David Miller. "Their writing
adds a human dimension so often missing from the public debate,.. ."
Boys Speak Out On Man/Boy Love is sent FREE to all current members
and those who join NOW. Members will also receive GAYME magazine, NAMBLA
TOPICS, and the NAMBLA Bulletin as part of their yearly membership.
A one year membership in NAMBLA is $35 for those who live in North
America, $50 elsewhere (to cover the cost of air mail postage). Send a
check (drawn on a US bank) or money order for US funds, payable to NAMBLA,
to the snail mail address below.
Yours in Liberation,
Roy
--
Roy Radow Now: ra...@netcom.com (was: r...@panix.com)
North American Man/Boy Love Association -For membership info & brochure
write to: NAMBLA, Dept. RR, PO Box 174, Midtown Station, NYC, NY 10018.
Send $5 for a sample Bulletin. Publications list available upon request.
David A. Kaye
Roy Radow wrote the quoted material below:
" "These boys paint a moving, unvarnished picture of true love,
" oppression, and resistance" says editor David Miller. "Their writing
" adds a human dimension so often missing from the public debate,.. ."
This may or may not be true, but I think NAMBLA as an organization is very
troubled. Having had occasion to wander into a NAMBLA film festival at a
community center one day (it was Disney-esque Huck Finn-type moves, no
porno), I couldn't help but listen to the conversations the men were
having with each other about their boys. It wasn't stuff like "I'm so
proud of Billy; he got a B on his report card!" It was pretty much
consistently stuff like "Isn't billy really CUTE!"
This didn't sound the least bit like love to me; it sounded like lust.
Sorry, but that doesn't play in my songbook. What happens when the kid
gets too old, is he just thrown aside like week-old meat? It's hard
enough for adults to handle it, let alone kids, who we all know will
eventually grow too old for the tastes of their men. I don't have
anything against intergenerational sex when it's between CONSENTING
people, BUT how often IS it consenting? Probably seldom. People have to
ask themselves why are boys in these relationships? Are they looking for
fatherly love? If that's the case then their men should be treating them
like SONS, not like sex objects.
--
(c) 1996 No special rights for straight people.
David Kaye Support equal rights; support gay marriage.
Philip Gray
Roy Radow (ra...@netcom.com) wrote:
: **Now Available- Boys Speak Out On Man/Boy Love**
: Thirty-seven letters, interviews, man/boy love poetry, and articles-
: all written by the boys themselves!
Yeah, like we're supposed to believe that?
: Yours in Liberation,
: Roy
Pedophiles deserve nothing more than to be locked up for the rest of their
lives.
--
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_/ _| _/_ _/ \__ _/_/ _/ _| _/__/ _/__ = the view never changes. =
WWW - http://www.zoom.com/personal/airdale ==================================
Danny Smith
I try very hard to not judge others, and I think I'm
a reasonably tolerant individual. There are, however,
few things on Earth with a higher "ecch!" factor than
Man/Boy "love." Could we please change the subject?
Danny Smith Amdahl Corporation
da...@amdahl.com
The opinions expressed here are mine, not Amdahl's
(They made me say that....)
Jeff Carty
In <radowDv...@netcom.com>, ra...@netcom.com (Roy Radow) writes:
>
> "These boys paint a moving, unvarnished picture of true love,
>oppression, and resistance" says editor David Miller.
>
If this is "liberation", I don't want it. At all.
Nor do my efforts to secure equal status and opportunity for homosexuality
have ANYTHING to do with your efforts. Pedophilic sex issues, even if they
have any merits, are a totally separate matter from sexual orientation
issues. Pedophilia is debatable (or wrong) among heterosexuals today - and
will continue to be debatable (or wrong) among homosexuals, even when full
gay equality/liberation is achieved.
You are like a remora, in trying to claim to be part of the gay rights
movement (instead of having the nerve to say what you are and run your own).
I also think that if you are serious about lusting after <16 kids, or
having "relationships" with them, or changing laws to allow those things,
you really need some pretty serious psychological and/or moral help. I
hope that sooner or later (preferably sooner), you get it.
Jeff
Roy Radow
ca...@best.com (Jeff Carty) writes:
>In <radowDv...@netcom.com>, ra...@netcom.com (Roy Radow) writes:
>>
>> "These boys paint a moving, unvarnished picture of true love,
>>oppression, and resistance" says editor David Miller.
>>
>>Yours in Liberation,
>If this is "liberation", I don't want it. At all.
>Nor do my efforts to secure equal status and opportunity for homosexuality
>have ANYTHING to do with your efforts.
I can just imagine how the under-aged youth who frequented the
Stonewall would react to your concept of liberation. :-)
FYI, here is what some of the folks who were on the frontlines of
GLBTO Liberation have to say about NAMBLA and intergenerational
relations.
"NAMBLA Walks With Me."
- Harry Hay, Founder: Mattachine Society & Radical Faeries.
L.A. Gay Pride Parade, 1986.
"Attacks on NAMBLA stink of politics, witchhunting for profit,
humorlessness, vanity, anger and ignorance,.. .
I'm a member of NAMBLA because I love boys too- everybody does,
who has a little humanity."
- Allen Ginsberg, poet. January, 1983.
"I read the NAMBLA [Bulletin] fairly regularly and I think it
is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I've
ever found. I think before you start judging what NAMBLA is
about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about.
What the issues they are really talking about, and deal with
what's really there rather than this demonized notion of guys
running about trying to screw little boys. I would have been
so much happier as an adolescent if NAMBLA had been around
when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, 13."
-Samuel Delany, gay science fiction writer. Queer Desires Forum,
New York City, June 25, 1994.
"Sex between youths and adults is one of the most difficult issues
in the gay movement. When does a youngster have the right and the power
to make his own sexual decisions? How are laws against intergenerational
sex used specifically to target gay men? What are the issues that make
the romantic image of the Greek teacher and his student in times of
antiquity turn into something ugly and forbidden in the modern age?
If you want to explore these issues, NAMBLA is the organization that
will supply you with brochures, thought-provoking books and booklets."
- John Preston in The Big Gay Book: A Man's Survival Guide for the 90s.
New York: Plume, 1991.
"These days, especially in America, boy-love is not only scandalous
and criminal, but somehow in bad taste. On the evening news, one sees
handcuffed teachers, priests, or Boy Scout leaders hustled into police
vans. Therapists call them maladjusted, emotionally immature. But
beauty has its own laws, inconsistent with Christian morality. As
a women, I feel free to protest that men today are pilloried for
something that was rational and honorable in Greece at the height
of its civilization.
- Camille Paglia, activist and author, in Sexual Personae.
New York: Vintage Books, 1991.
"Membership in the... North American Man/Boy Love Association is not
re1;1;0quired in order to question whether every instance of intergenerational
sexuality is damaging."
- Richard Green, professor of psychiatry, University of California,
Los Angeles, in Sexual Science and the Law. Boston: Harvard University
Press, 1992.
"People express in the tape that issues around child sexuality are the
new red scare. It's the easiest thing in the world to discredit someone
by calling them a kiddie-diddler. ... And in the larger sense why do we
have such a panic around youth sexuality, particularly gay youth sexuality."
- After The Bath: An interview with filmmaker John Greyson
in Icon (Canada's Gay & Lesbian Magazine), May 1995.
"Youth Liberation has argued for some time that young people should
have the right to have sex as well as not to have it, and with whom
they choose. The statutory structure of the sex laws has been
identified as oppressive and insulting to young people. A range of
sexual activities are legally defined as molestation, regardless of
the quality of the relationship or the amount of consent involved."
- Gayle Rubin, lesbian feminist, in Leaping Lesbians, February, 1978.
"In those cases where children do have sex with their homosexual
elders... I submit that often, very often, the child desires the
activity, and perhaps even solicits it, either because of a natural
curiosity... or because he or she is homosexual and innately know it.
... And unlike girls or women forced into rape or traumatized, most
gay men have warm memories of their earliest and early sexual
encounters; when we share these stories with each other, they are
invariably positive ones."
- Larry Kramer, writer and founder of the AIDS Coalition to Unleash
Power (ACT-UP), in Reports from the Holocaust. New York: St. Martin's
Press, 1991.
"It is quite difficult to lay down barriers [particularly since] it
could be that the child, with his own sexuality, may have desired the
adult."
- Michel Foucault speaking against age-of-consent laws, as cited in
James Miller's The Passion of Michel Foucault. New York: Simon and
Schuster, 1992.
"Many of the men who picked me up so lovingly, would today be
stigmatized as pedophiles. They were all kind and respectful
and were very important to me. I've seen that same considered
manner in most pedophiles I've known, though I don't share their
love for children. ... Most, not all, men I've known who were as
boys befriended by boy-lovers were grateful to them. Women who
act seductively with boys (I often experienced that) are generally
ignored--probably just as well. ...
The upbringing of girls and boys differs so much, that lesbians
tend to view all intergenerational sex (or even adult hetero-sex)
in "power" terms. Most, not all, boys see it as an adventure, or
seek the love their parents fail to give them. ...
Too many in our movement, victims themselves of prejudice and
discrimination, pass those hatreds and fears to drag queens,
pedophiles, bisexuals, leather men and women, transsexuals, and
many other minorities within our community. We talk nicely about
diversity, but practicing it is more difficult. ..."
-Jim Kepner, Founder of the International Gay and Lesbian
Archives, Los Angeles, and pioneering gay activist.
" My own initiation came long before I was legally adult. Though
a number of males around my age offered to participate, a woman ten
years my senior was "responsible," at my invitation and encouragement.
The only fault I find with that part of my sexual education was the
limit her guilt and fear put on our pleasure, the heterosexual pressure
even she felt required to put on me. What she did "for my own good"
caused both of us pain. If I were to improve on that experience now, it
would not be to protect children from adult seduction but to make adults
easier to seduce, less burdened with fear or guilt, less defended by
hypocrisy. ...
If we accepted sexual behaviour between children and adults, we would be
far more able to protect our children from abuse and exploitation than we
are now."
-Jane Rule, lesbian feminist. "Teaching Sexuality" in Flaunting It,
Vancouver, New Star Press, 1982.
"...in cases of mutual consent and mutual sexual attraction, sexual
activity itself [between men and boys] seems to produce no damaging
effects. It is to be hoped that this may put parents' minds at rest
and help them to avoid being unnecessarily upset and anxious."
- Dr. Preben Hertoft, eminent Copenhagen sexologist, "Introduction:
Paedophiles Don't Hurt Children", in Crime Without Victims. Amsterdam:
Global Academic Publishers, 1993.
"I... have a friend facing a possible jail sentence for having sex
with a couple of 15-year-olds. I love my friend; he is a good person.
At the preliminary trial, it became evident to me that the "victims"
were the seducers, who had already repeatedly had sex with each other.
But in the eyes of the court, their age is the sole determining factor
to be weighed.... From tea room to drag queen, I applaud every gay
subculture.... Discrimination among ourselves is profoundly
self-destructive. NAMBLA deserves to be heard and respected."
- Michael Kearns, in "Men Loving Boys," in the Los Angeles gay
magazine Edge, August 31, 1988.
"When I was 12 and 13 years old I would have joined NAMBLA in
a minute, because I knew I was gay and I wanted to go out and
get laid, not just read the Gay Mystique all my life; I needed
personal contact.
We have a million gay children out there right now who are in
the same boat, who know their sexuality, and aren't getting
any support. Most of our supposed gay leaders are afraid to
do anything with them. ... That means we're leaving the sex
education of our youth to angry heterosexuals who don't
understand.
That's one reason NAMBLA is so important. They are willing to
take the risks that no one is willing to take... . They're the
only one's willing to acknowledge that adolescents actually do
have sex lives.
There is also a more basic reason why I support NAMBLA. They
are the voice of dissent in the gay movement today. They're
the whipping boy, the fashionable group to condemn. ... I
say, watch out, tomorrow that whipping boy could be you... .
In the efforts of the gay establishment to suppress NAMBLA I
see the seeds of tyranny."
-Scott O'Hara, publisher and editor of STEAM magazine.
Spirit of Stonewall Press Conference, Stonewall Bar, NYC,
June 24, 1994.
"Our foes waved NAMBLA Bulletins at the state capitol for years
protesting the gay rights bill. But NAMBLA has made very strong
statements and distinctions against child abuse. How many of its
opponents have really listened to what the organization actually
supports?"
- from an editorial, "Accepting Diversity," in the Hartford,
Connecticut, gay magazine Metroline, July 26, 1991.
"It is possible that the pedophile's marginal position alerts him not
only to self-interest but the pains suffered by all the outcast. This
is not a necessary consequence of pedophilia, of course, any more than
virtue is of poverty. Still, that passion for helping the child is so
strong in pedophile relations that even the police acknowledge it."
- James Kincaid, professor of English at University of Southern
California, in Child Loving. New York: Routledge, 1992.
"Those who oppose intergenerational sex believe that a kid's life is
ruined if he or she has sex with an older person. Exactly what takes
place is irrelevant; all such sex falls under the rubric of 'child
molestation' and is irrevocably damaging. I think this idea is
patently false. A child who is raped at a very young age and a
sexually active adolescent boy who has as affair with an older man
have nothing in common."
- Cris Guttierrez writing in Frighten the Horses, issue # 10,
San Francisco, fall 1992.
"Boy-lovers and the lesbians who have young lovers are the only people
offering a hand to help young women and men cross the difficult terrain
between straight society and the gay community. They are not child
molesters. The child abusers are priests, teachers, therapists, cops and
parents who force their stale morality onto the young people in their
custody. Instead of condemning pedophiles for their involvement with
lesbian and gay youth, we should be supporting them."
- Pat Califia, lesbian author and activist, in The Advocate, Oct. 1980.
"If I were to see the case of a boy aged ten or eleven who's intensely
erotically attracted toward a man in his twenties or thirties, if the
relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally
mutual, then I would not call it pathological in any way."
- John Money, Professor Emeritus of Medical Psychology, Johns
Hopkins University, in an interview in Paidika: The Journal of
Paedophilia, spring 1991.
Yours in Liberation,
Roy
--
Roy Radow * Now: ra...@netcom.com * (was: r...@panix.com)
StarJack
d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
>Roy Radow wrote the quoted material below:
>" "These boys paint a moving, unvarnished picture of true love,
Pedophilia takes many forms and has many motivations. Like any sexual
categories,"pedophilia" is a broad brush covering an extremely various
and nuanced range of possibilities.
Yes there is abuse and crude lechery.
There is also loving and support.
I have always liked older men. I did as a teenager, and I still like
men older than myself even though I am far from my adolescence!
As a teenager, older lovers provided affection and refuge from a home
with a hateful, homophobic father. I ran into some guys I'd raher not
have, but I also found men who -- yes, thaought I was terribly young
and cute, but I was just as lustful of them as they were of me. And
some were not just lustful, but genuinely caring, affecitonate, and
supportive -- and I mean emotionally supportive! I never took money
from any of them.
As a teenager I fell in love with a 30 year old boy lover and we were
lovers for five years. In my early 20's I broke it off. He never
"tossed me aside like week-old meat." Although we went through a
rough spot of becoming "just friends" we succeeded in remaining
friends and, a quarter of a century after we met, he is still one of
my best and dearest friends.
Now, I know others will say, yeah, that's your individual story, but
in other cases dirty old men and little boys and natter, natter,
natter....
Well, the point is that all cases are individual. Some boy-man
relationships are wonderful. Some are abusive. The same can be said
of any generalized group of relationships.
NAMBLA, as an organization, is very naive and problematic, even
self-defeating, but SOME of their points are extremely valid.
In too much of the tallk about man-boy love it is adults screaming at
each other (all too often in suppositional generalizations like those
above!) without listening to the boys.
We cannot honestly spot and stop REAL abuse if we do not also
acknowledge the pleasure, joy, and value that can take place. In
short we have to listen honestly to the boys, rather than talking
"over" them.
Jeff Carty
In <837cc$83b29.4f@ACER1>, ti...@bbs.backdoor.com (StarJack) writes:
>d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
>
>>having with each other about their boys. It wasn't stuff like "I'm so
>>proud of Billy; he got a B on his report card!" It was pretty much
>>consistently stuff like "Isn't billy really CUTE!"
>
>>This didn't sound the least bit like love to me; it sounded like lust.
>>Sorry, but that doesn't play in my songbook. What happens when the kid
>>gets too old, is he just thrown aside like week-old meat? It's hard
>>enough for adults to handle it, let alone kids, who we all know will
>>eventually grow too old for the tastes of their men. I don't have
>>anything against intergenerational sex when it's between CONSENTING
>>people, BUT how often IS it consenting? Probably seldom. People have to
>>ask themselves why are boys in these relationships? Are they looking for
>>fatherly love? If that's the case then their men should be treating them
>>like SONS, not like sex objects.
>
>>--
>>(c) 1996 No special rights for straight people.
>>David Kaye Support equal rights; support gay marriage.
>
>Pedophilia takes many forms and has many motivations. Like any sexual
>categories,"pedophilia" is a broad brush covering an extremely various
>and nuanced range of possibilities.
>
>Yes there is abuse and crude lechery.
>
>There is also loving and support.
>
>I have always liked older men. I did as a teenager, and I still like
>men older than myself even though I am far from my adolescence!
>
>
>Well, the point is that all cases are individual. Some boy-man
>relationships are wonderful. Some are abusive. The same can be said
>of any generalized group of relationships.
No.
Man-boy sex ("man" being defined here as >=21, and "boy" as <=15) is
inherently exploitative, no matter how much the boy may believe that
he wants it or that it is affectionate and healthy. This is because
of the inherent inequality (legal, political and otherwise) between
the two parties.
Adults have a responsibility to control themselves around children - to
NOT have sex with children - no matter how strongly they may want it,
and no matter how much the children may appear to want it or be "asking"
for it. Period. Stated more broadly: The powerful in a situation have
have a responsibility to restrain themselves sexually around the powerless
of the situation, and NOT have sex with them, no matter how much the
powerless may be asking or seducing - period. It's called "treating them
with respect".
You imply that if the adult "genuinely loves" the child (my words, but
trying to paraphrase your concept), it is somehow OK. Well, if the
adult does "genuinely love" the child, what the hell is he doing using
the child for personal sexual gratification? News flash: It's a form of
self-indulgence and selfishness, not love (again, no matter how
affectionate it is, and no matter what else the adult does helpfully
for the child, and no matter how much the child him/herself may be in
love and want it - we all know how much pubescent children develop crushes
on, or fantasies about, adults).
Between 2 adults of course, it is totally different. There is a measure of
legal and political equality. There may still be economic and other gross
inequalities, but they USUALLY pale somewhat, next to the extreme
inequality unavoidable and inherent in the adult-child situation. (One
exception is sometimes the manager-managed situation, where the boss may
have livelihood-threatening power over a subordinate who may be clinging to
the job desperately, feeling she has no really viable job alternative.)
>In too much of the tallk about man-boy love it is adults screaming at
>each other (all too often in suppositional generalizations like those
>above!) without listening to the boys.
Anyone who has ever loved a child, or had responsibility for them,
knows that you listen to them and honor their wishes as much as you
possibly can - but sometimes you just have to deny them their heartfelt
wishes no matter what.
If my 3 little nephews had their wish, they would have ice cream for
breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. If I had had my wish, I would have
had a sexual relationship with high school teacher Mr. Xyz. It still would
have been destructive and wrong in any case.
Not the least of the harmful effects is the learned confusion of sexual
gratification with love - which alot of us have trouble with anyway, and
which - in all honesty - you seem to be having some trouble with in your
remarks.
IMHO there is an element of "Stockholm syndrome" that goes on, meaning that
alot of the testimony of the children in these situations must/should
automatically be discounted, no matter how positive it is.
>We cannot honestly spot and stop REAL abuse if we do not also
>acknowledge the pleasure, joy, and value that can take place.
One of the most difficult issues to face and work through, in incest or
molestation survivor recovery, is admitting that there was love, a
feeling of being special/important, and/or sexual/physical pleasure in
the relationship - in some warped way, on some level. Usually the
survivor must overcome personal guilt on this level. In any case, this
mixing of "good" with "evil", this corruption of something "good" in
service of something else "evil", are precisely a part of why incest
and molestation are so horrible.
The adult/powerful has absolute, 100% responsibility to control/restrain
themselves sexually around the child/powerless. No matter how much the
child/powerless may want it, or be "asking". *No excuses.*
Jeff
(who, yes, has personal experience with a large subset of these issues -
on the victim side)
Jeff Carty
No.
and other forms of molestation are so horrible.
The adult/powerful has absolute, 100% responsibility to control/restrain
themselves sexually around the child/powerless. No matter how much the
child/powerless may sincerely want it, or be "asking". For the adult,
there can be *no excuses*.
As feminists and rape victims know, "The victim wanted it and liked it" is
the worst excuse. (Even worse than "The devil made me do it" - Jimmy
Swaggert's excuse when he was caught with a prostitute in the early 1990s).
News flash: any adult who cannot restrain themselves sexually around a child
is not thinking/acting as an adult (which is why they would then need
psychological and/or moral help).
cricket
> Man-boy sex ("man" being defined here as >=21, and "boy" as <=15) is
> inherently exploitative, no matter how much the boy may believe that
> he wants it or that it is affectionate and healthy. This is because
> of the inherent inequality (legal, political and otherwise) between
> the two parties.
It seems the easiest way to come to agreement on this is not to define
specific age restrictions. Plain and simple, I think it is not right for a
sexually mature person (male or female) to have sex with another person
who has not reached full sexual maturity.
In many cases, 15 may be a good dividing line, sometime older, less often
younger. I think that someone, male or female, that exclusively seeks
relations with someone not fully sexually mature has problems s/he needs
to deal with.
An arbitrary dividing line of 18 or 21 has always been incredibly stupid.
Once someone matures physically, sexually, and mentally, they are adults.
For most people this happens well before the age of 18.
Anyone that wants to chat about this, write me.
cricket
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David Stevenson
cri...@ricochet.net (cricket) writes:
>
>It seems the easiest way to come to agreement on this is not to define
>specific age restrictions. Plain and simple, I think it is not right for a
>sexually mature person (male or female) to have sex with another person
>who has not reached full sexual maturity.
>
>In many cases, 15 may be a good dividing line, sometime older, less often
>younger.
To amplify on this, there are laws to deal with sexual activity with people
who are unable to "give consent" whatever their age, such as people under
anesthesia, in a coma, mentally retarded... I'm sure that we've all read
newspaper accounts of at least one such trial somewhere in the US every
year, if not more often. That's what courts are for, proving rape, or
date rape, or whatever, vs. consentual sex. "Statutes", as in "satutory
rape" are written by old white legislators who want to impose their
morals on every community, every family, every individual. It's high
time we give those old geezers the boot.
cricket
In article <4ubr87$b...@filth.well.com>, g...@well.com (George A. Gleason) wrote:
> Re. age of consent at physical maturity: nope! Physical maturity has
> nothing to do with emotional readiness for a relationship, which often comes
> quite a bit later. And hey, I knew guys in highschool who were growing
> beards at age 13 or 14 or thereabouts, and chances are they were not ready
> to deal with sex at that point. So please let's not go setting an arbitrary
> standard which leaves the door open to predators.
In favor of what we have now, where anyone under 18 is treated as a
second-class citizen? Bah. And what makes you think people over 18 are
ready for the emotions that accompany a relationship? Is anyone ever
ready?