standard DSL problem
Anthony
PacBell/SBC/ATT DSL, and it has stopped working. I want to help her,
but can't tell if the problem is in the DSL modem or in the line.
Most people I know have Cable Modems because where I am, that is the
only valid alternative to the phone co.
I have determined the problem is DEFINITELY not her computer, as I have
brought over my netbook, plugged it in, and it still doesn't work.
The DSL modem is a Westell, there is no model number written on it, but
it says ADSL2+, Rev N, Style MSTATEA, and it looks like a tiny black
box, about 4"x4"x1". It has 5 lights, one of which is intermittently
unlit and then red.
I don't have a spare DSL modem to swap in there and see if that is the
problem.
When I have browsed into the modem interface at 192.168.1.254, there is
an option to check the connection, and it fails the steps:
Perform ATM OAM segment ping AND
Check PPPoE server session AND
Check authentication with PPP server: Fail
I hope that I'm not going to have to deal with the phone company on her
behalf...
NoOp
> The little old lady across the street from me has standard
> PacBell/SBC/ATT DSL, and it has stopped working. I want to help her,
> but can't tell if the problem is in the DSL modem or in the line.
>
> Most people I know have Cable Modems because where I am, that is the
> only valid alternative to the phone co.
>
> I have determined the problem is DEFINITELY not her computer, as I have
> brought over my netbook, plugged it in, and it still doesn't work.
So how did you determine that it is *not* her computer?
...
Roy
Much easier to report the phone dead
Roy
communicate with the Modem/Router. The Modem/Router reports problems
with the line
NoOp
brought over my netbook, plugged it in, and it still doesn't work."
experienced several of those in the past few months (just a few days ago
fwiw). Typically they were due to a failed regional Redback
router/switch. POTS still worked etc, but DSL died.
My guess would be that something barfed due to the recent rain. The only
thing I can recommend is to call AT&T and check to see if there is an
outage report/recording.
Anthony
Anthony
>
> Much easier to report the phone dead
>
>
the volume so loud it just about scared me out of my skin.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>The DSL modem is a Westell, there is no model number written on it, but
>it says ADSL2+, Rev N, Style MSTATEA, and it looks like a tiny black
>box, about 4"x4"x1".
firmware as the Motorola 2210-02:
<http://www.att.com/support_media/images/122/29850_02.jpg>
>It has 5 lights, one of which is intermittently
>unlit and then red.
red? My guess(tm) would be the "DSL" light.
>I don't have a spare DSL modem to swap in there and see if that is the
>problem.
suggest an Efficient/Speedstream/Siemens 4100 as the least disgusting.
The Motorola 2210 gets hot and blows up wall warts.
>When I have browsed into the modem interface at 192.168.1.254, there is
>an option to check the connection, and it fails the steps:
>Perform ATM OAM segment ping AND
>Check PPPoE server session AND
>Check authentication with PPP server: Fail
circuit) to the DSLAM (digital subscriber line access monster). If
you look carefully at the lights, one of them says "DSL". What is it
doing? If it's anything except solid green, you have a problem. Don't
mess with the settings unless you have a solid DSL light.
Since this is the proverbial little-olde-lady, in my experience, the
problem usually involved microfilters and/or extra phones on the line.
Rather than trying to find the exact cause, just run some phone wire
out to the DEMAC, where the phone line enters the NID (network
interface device), unplug the entire house, and just plug in the DSL
modem. No microfilters needed or desired. If that works, start
looking for whatever changed in the house phone wiring. In
particular, look for microfilters installed backwards, wrong port on
the microfilter, cable TV boxes with phone lines, satellite TV boxes
with phone lines, answering machines, cordless phones, etc.
>I hope that I'm not going to have to deal with the phone company on her
>behalf...
lifetime, so that you have an established baseline for what
constitutes dysfunctional support.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Roy
replace a phone without a filter?
I assume a reboot didn't solve the problem.
The fact that you can access the modem/router via the web eliminates a
number of problems.
I think you are stuck with working with the DSL company to diagnose the
problem.
David Kaye
> Then go get one. They usually sell for $10-$15 at the recyclers. I
> suggest an Efficient/Speedstream/Siemens 4100 as the least disgusting.
> Since this is the proverbial little-olde-lady, in my experience, the
> problem usually involved microfilters and/or extra phones on the line.
around to vacuum, unplug the phone lines and then plug them in backwards.
Or they just forget and leave a cord unplugged behind the bookcase.
> I think you should call AT&T phone support at least once in your
> lifetime, so that you have an established baseline for what
> constitutes dysfunctional support.
someone mistakenly removed DSL from the wrong phone line at 5:00pm on a
Friday and I couldn't get them to turn it back on because they didn't have a
work order. And work orders come from the sales department and sales closes
at 5pm. Took 3 days to get the DSL back.
But aside from that really lame situation, the actual tech support has been
very good. I've had to get on the line with them from time to time when
I've been unable to get DSL up. They've walked me through things several
times, resolving the issues.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>>I don't have a spare DSL modem to swap in there and see if that is the
>>problem.
>
>Then go get one. They usually sell for $10-$15 at the recyclers. I
>suggest an Efficient/Speedstream/Siemens 4100 as the least disgusting.
>The Motorola 2210 gets hot and blows up wall warts.
for PPPoE using:
login: att...@att.net
passwd: attdsl
When you connect, you'll get the account setup page, which should be
enough to demonstrate that it works.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>I forgot to mention that you should pre-program your spare DSL modem
>for PPPoE using:
> login: att...@att.net
> passwd: attdsl
login: att...@att.net
passwd: attreg
Sorry(tm).
Anthony
>
> That's a Westell 6100. From AT&T, the Westell 6100 uses the same
> firmware as the Motorola 2210-02:
> <http://www.att.com/support_media/images/122/29850_02.jpg>
>
> Could you make that a little less ambiguous? Which light is flashing
> red? My guess(tm) would be the "DSL" light.
DSL light. I'll try to take a picture of it next time I'm there.
> Then go get one. They usually sell for $10-$15 at the recyclers. I
> suggest an Efficient/Speedstream/Siemens 4100 as the least disgusting.
> The Motorola 2210 gets hot and blows up wall warts.
> Failing ATM ping means you don't have a PVC (permanent virtual
> circuit) to the DSLAM (digital subscriber line access monster). If
> you look carefully at the lights, one of them says "DSL". What is it
> doing? If it's anything except solid green, you have a problem. Don't
> mess with the settings unless you have a solid DSL light.
> Since this is the proverbial little-olde-lady, in my experience, the
> problem usually involved microfilters and/or extra phones on the line.
> Rather than trying to find the exact cause, just run some phone wire
> out to the DEMAC, where the phone line enters the NID (network
> interface device), unplug the entire house, and just plug in the DSL
> modem. No microfilters needed or desired. If that works, start
> looking for whatever changed in the house phone wiring. In
> particular, look for microfilters installed backwards, wrong port on
> the microfilter, cable TV boxes with phone lines, satellite TV boxes
> with phone lines, answering machines, cordless phones, etc.
That is what I will do next time I'm there, which might be tomorrow
afternoon.
> I think you should call AT&T phone support at least once in your
> lifetime, so that you have an established baseline for what
> constitutes dysfunctional support.
Thanks, I'll keep everyone updated.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>There's no recyclers near here, I live far from the bay area in Chico, CA.
There's also eBay, CraigsList, Amazon, etc.
>> Failing ATM ping means you don't have a PVC (permanent virtual
>> circuit) to the DSLAM (digital subscriber line access monster). If
>> you look carefully at the lights, one of them says "DSL". What is it
>> doing? If it's anything except solid green, you have a problem. Don't
>> mess with the settings unless you have a solid DSL light.
>
>It alternates (not quickly) between solid green and solid red.
Actually, it would be even more helpful if you would look at the
serial number tag, on the bottom of the modem, and disclose the exact
model number:
<http://www22.verizon.com/residentialhelp/highspeed/troubleshooting/connection+issues/questionsone/88092.htm>
For the 6100, there doesn't seem to be any light that alternates
between green and red.
More:
<http://www.voipmechanic.com/westell-6100-lights.htm >
Dive into the web based config at 192.168.1.254 and see if there's a
page showing DSL connection status. I'm fairly sure you don't have an
ATM circuit, and certainly not an IP address. While you're there,
look around for unplugged phone cables and new devices. Check AGAIN
for dial tone at the DSL modem. Bring your own POTS instrument to be
sure.
>Nothing proverbial about it, she's the real deal, 86 years old I think.
retirement home, full of permanent beginners. Fortunately, I don't do
that any more.
>I have before, that's how I know that I don't want to do it again.
their feeble attempts at being helpful. Actually, they're not really
that horrible for simple problems. What they can't do very well is
troubleshoot hardware and wiring problems over the phone, which is
what you're doing.
Good luck.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
David Kaye
> My worst nightmare. One of my "charity" customers was a senior
> retirement home, full of permanent beginners. Fortunately, I don't do
> that any more.
always try to explain what I'm doing, and I explain it in metaphor. After
all, I accept that they don't fix computer problems, just as I don't fix my
own car or (for the most part) fix my own meals.
Disk defrag is an example. I explain that when a disk is fresh the files
are written in a neat orderly fashion just as if papers were being put into
a file cabinet from front to back. But then you take out some papers and
put new ones in and before long it takes longer to find stuff because things
aren't in such an orderly manner anymore. They understand that.
Another example is the line filter. The telephone company discovered they
could send two different kinds of signals at once down the line, but the
filters have to be in place or the computer gets confused and doesn't
understand.
Modem and router, oddly enough, most people understand. They know that the
modem talks to the phone or cable company and that the router distributes
the signal so it can be used by more than one computer. I'm not sure why
they understand this best of all, but they do.
Thad Floryan
> [...]
> modem talks to the phone or cable company and that the router distributes
> the signal so it can be used by more than one computer. I'm not sure why
> they understand this best of all, but they do.
the 1960s (45+ years ago), so I would think most people in the USA
are at least aware they exist.
Yet I have one friend who's 84, has a Mac Pro and a Windows box, uses
Emacs, knows what a modem is, hasn't a clue about a router. When he
lived in the Bay Area (in Saratoga right where Hwy-9 makes the first
left turn leaving downtown headed for Skyline), I could assist him
with problems. He's now in Reno (dumb move and he now regrets it, too)
and it's a bear to talk him through a setup every time he moves around.
At least we both have the same cell carrier so there's no airtime being
charged for such calls.
NoOp
my neighbors wireless (also AT&T). The neighbors connection may go to a
different Redback switch than hers. So, make the call to AT&T.
jcdill
> On 10/05/2011 09:53 PM, Anthony wrote:
>> On 10/5/2011 5:50 PM, NoOp wrote:
>>> On 10/05/2011 05:29 PM, Anthony wrote:
>>>> The little old lady across the street from me has standard
>>>> PacBell/SBC/ATT DSL, and it has stopped working. I want to help her,
>>>> but can't tell if the problem is in the DSL modem or in the line.
>>>>
>>>> Most people I know have Cable Modems because where I am, that is the
>>>> only valid alternative to the phone co.
>>>>
>>>> I have determined the problem is DEFINITELY not her computer, as I have
>>>> brought over my netbook, plugged it in, and it still doesn't work.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> So how did you determine that it is *not* her computer?
>> It works on the neighbors wireless
>
> That doesn't mean a thing. When my wired DSL goes out I can often access
> my neighbors wireless (also AT&T). The neighbors connection may go to a
> different Redback switch than hers. So, make the call to AT&T.
on another network it proves that the problem is not HER COMPUTER, thus
the problem is in either the modem/router, or ISP. So why are you
arguing if the claim above that they determined it is not her computer?
jc
Jeff Liebermann
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>
>> My worst nightmare. One of my "charity" customers was a senior
>> retirement home, full of permanent beginners. Fortunately, I don't do
>> that any more.
>
>I've had lots of older folks, age 75 up, and have had few problems.
>I
>always try to explain what I'm doing, and I explain it in metaphor.
doing that for so long, that I the few times I've had to keep my mouth
shut while working on the machine, I found that I was having problems
staying organized. Old habits die hard.
>After
>all, I accept that they don't fix computer problems, just as I don't fix my
>own car or (for the most part) fix my own meals.
cook, and tend to eat at restaurants when convenient.
>Disk defrag is an example. I explain that when a disk is fresh the files
>are written in a neat orderly fashion just as if papers were being put into
>a file cabinet from front to back. But then you take out some papers and
>put new ones in and before long it takes longer to find stuff because things
>aren't in such an orderly manner anymore. They understand that.
hard disk, and makes it faster. Good enough for most people.
>Another example is the line filter. The telephone company discovered they
>could send two different kinds of signals at once down the line, but the
>filters have to be in place or the computer gets confused and doesn't
>understand.
computah).
>Modem and router, oddly enough, most people understand.
explaining the modem (puts noise on the phone line which the computers
recognize as data), but routers are beyond most older customers. I
like to explain things in terms of what they do, not how they do it.
For a router, it lets you share the connection with multiple
computahs, and helps keep hackers like me out of your computer.
>They know that the
>modem talks to the phone or cable company and that the router distributes
>the signal so it can be used by more than one computer. I'm not sure why
>they understand this best of all, but they do.
discussion with one retired architect, that remembers a modem as a
wooden box that you put the handset inside.
The best thing I've done for seniors is to label all the cables and
jacks (and I do mean all). I use vinyl labels, colored tags or wire
numbers. Those that live in retirement homes, usually pay someone to
do the room cleaning. Tearing apart the cables and disconnecting
everything is very common. My worst problems seem to arrive from the
visits by the grand kids, who are all computer experts, and invariably
leave a security hole, virus, or config problem behind.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Hah hah! Computer data modems for dialups have been around since
>the 1960s (45+ years ago), so I would think most people in the USA
>are at least aware they exist.
Sigh... it's been that long?
NoOp
was stating that it's most likely her DSL line & was commenting on the
fact that connecting to the neighbors wireless doesn't mean that her DSL
is working.
David Kaye
>
> Do we live on the same planet?
Possibly, but maybe a difference is that I don't do senior centers,
retirement homes, etc. These are all people who live on their own.
> Because modems have been around since the 1970's. I had a nice
> discussion with one retired architect, that remembers a modem as a
> wooden box that you put the handset inside.
I hate to say it but I remember those, too. I also remember the sound
baffles you needed to be able to sit in the same room with a Diablo 630
printer. Oh gee, nostalgia here we come...
> My worst problems seem to arrive from the
> visits by the grand kids, who are all computer experts, and invariably
> leave a security hole, virus, or config problem behind.
I've told folks to please phone me before their grandkids do anything, and
DON'T buy any software that is offered to them. The computer works fine as
it is and won't be improved by any new software.
Actually they have phoned me and I've actually talked with some of those
grandkids and talked them out of "fixing" the computers.
jcdill
> is working.
DSL was working. The OP said that connecting to the neighbor's wireless
meant he had eliminated one of the possible causes of the problem (the
lady's computer). I don't understand why you can't recognize that your
questioning that comment and subsequent replies are not helping, you are
arguing against something that is clearly true, and bringing up another
issue which is already being covered elsewhere in this thread.
Try "my bad, nevermind" and move on!
jc
NoOp
Anthony
<snip>
Some pictures from inside the house:
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/dukeofurl01/Not%20Assigned%20to%20other%20albums/DSL-Modems.jpg
The short version is: I have taken the modem, and phone cord out to the
demarc outside the house, it worked find, green light and everything,
but no "internet" light. I wanted to take a picture, but all I had was
my 3GS, and the picture would not turn out, no matter what I tried.
There was some kind of voltage leak, I could feel it when I touched the
lines. It was kind of disconcerting. I don't usually feel voltage
unless someone is calling the line while I'm working on it.
I checked all the phones for the microfilters, and each phone only has
one of those pass through filters, with one port, and then phone plugged
into that.
EXCEPT the one in the office where the modem is plugged into, that one
has the two outs, phone and data, and it is set up correctly.
This tells me that the problem is somehow related to authentication.
Does that sound right?
She said that she called ATT, and that they are sending out a technician
on Wednesday.
I'm very tempted to wash my hands of the whole thing...
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Some pictures from inside the house:
>http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/dukeofurl01/Not%20Assigned%20to%20other%20albums/DSL-Modems.jpg
Westel 6100 DSL modem.
>The short version is: I have taken the modem, and phone cord out to the
>demarc outside the house, it worked find, green light and everything,
>but no "internet" light. I wanted to take a picture, but all I had was
>my 3GS, and the picture would not turn out, no matter what I tried.
Don't worry about the "Internet" light. What it does is try to ping
some server on the internet. If the ping is successful, the light
comes on. If not, it stays off. The problem is that connectivity to
this server is somewhat erratic. I've seen working modems with the
"Internet" light both on and off. Concentrate on the DSL light.
>There was some kind of voltage leak, I could feel it when I touched the
>lines. It was kind of disconcerting. I don't usually feel voltage
>unless someone is calling the line while I'm working on it.
Do you have a DVM (digital volt meter)? If so, measure from each wire
(red-green) to earth ground at the Demarc. You should see 48VDC
across the line, and nearly zero between each wire and ground. If you
get the full voltage from one of the wires to ground, you have some
device on your line shorted to ground. That will cause an imbalance
and problems. However, you will also hear such a problem in the phone
as 60Hz hum, so that's improbable.
>I checked all the phones for the microfilters, and each phone only has
>one of those pass through filters, with one port, and then phone plugged
>into that.
>
>EXCEPT the one in the office where the modem is plugged into, that one
>has the two outs, phone and data, and it is set up correctly.
Ok, it's wired correctly. So much for the easy fix.
>This tells me that the problem is somehow related to authentication.
>Does that sound right?
Maybe. Please re-read my previous message, where I asked you to look
at the line statistics and connection status.
One of the common problems I keep blundering into is that the password
has mysteriously changed. The symptom is rather odd. Instead of the
desired web page, you get the AT&T troubleshooting web page, with
offers to install tons of ActiveX controls into IE, and never mentions
that all that's wrong is the password.
>She said that she called ATT, and that they are sending out a technician
>on Wednesday.
It's going to cost. No clue how much.
>I'm very tempted to wash my hands of the whole thing...
Probably a good idea. Your responses to my suggestions and your
troubleshooting methods could use some improvement. Good luck.
Thad Floryan
> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:18:50 -0700, Anthony <duke...@sonic.net>
> wrote:
>> on Wednesday.
>
> It's going to cost. No clue how much.
Really? Even if it's AT&T's problem? If it *IS* an AT&T problem
the cost should be zero. Someone knowledgable should be there
with the woman to assure the tech doesn't do a snow job.
I worked in San Mateo and San Carlos from 1993 to 2008 with multiple
clients and though it took about a year to establish credibility with
PacBell (mostly with the CO at 28th Avenue and El Camino in San Mateo)
from that point on they always rolled on my calls because my analysis
of the problem always proved to be correct *AND* Pac Bell's fault. I
used to get a lot of preferential treatment from them including direct
phone access to their NOCs for DSL, long-haul and other data problems.
I'm retired now and don't have those numbers anymore, so don't ask. :-)
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>On 10/8/2011 6:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:18:50 -0700, Anthony <duke...@sonic.net>
>> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> She said that she called ATT, and that they are sending out a technician
>>> on Wednesday.
3-5 days is now typical. Oh well.
>> It's going to cost. No clue how much.
>> [...]
>
>Really? Even if it's AT&T's problem? If it *IS* an AT&T problem
>the cost should be zero. Someone knowledgable should be there
>with the woman to assure the tech doesn't do a snow job.
Well, possibly. I'm assuming that the tech will miraculously "find"
something wrong with the installation. Unless the owner has inside
wiring (WirePro) insurance on her bill, anything the tech finds inside
the house is billable. I try to keep the tech out of the house, but
even that doesn't always work. One customer received a rather
elaborate bill from AT&T though the tech never showed up. Fortunately,
she had called complaining about the no-show, and the problems wasn't
fixed, so she was able to convince the billing office to drop the
charges.
However, you're right. Someone knowledgeable should be present.
Unfortunately, I don't think the OP is sufficiently experienced or
knowledgeable to qualify. Still, better than nothing. If he's
nearby, then he gets to wait around for the 4 hr window (assuming AT&T
shows up on time).
>I worked in San Mateo and San Carlos from 1993 to 2008 with multiple
>clients and though it took about a year to establish credibility with
>PacBell (mostly with the CO at 28th Avenue and El Camino in San Mateo)
>from that point on they always rolled on my calls because my analysis
>of the problem always proved to be correct *AND* Pac Bell's fault. I
>used to get a lot of preferential treatment from them including direct
>phone access to their NOCs for DSL, long-haul and other data problems.
That's a good arrangement. I only know one of the local DSL techs.
He's fairly new and doesn't want to risk his job by leaking useful
info. Oh well.
>I'm retired now and don't have those numbers anymore, so don't ask. :-)
How did you know what I was going to ask? I have a few numbers, but
have never needed to use them.
Anthony
> wrote:
>
>> Some pictures from inside the house:
>> http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/dukeofurl01/Not%20Assigned%20to%20other%20albums/DSL-Modems.jpg
>
> Westel 6100 DSL modem.
Wed and tries to overcharge her.
> Don't worry about the "Internet" light. What it does is try to ping
> some server on the internet. If the ping is successful, the light
> comes on. If not, it stays off. The problem is that connectivity to
> this server is somewhat erratic. I've seen working modems with the
> "Internet" light both on and off. Concentrate on the DSL light.
> Do you have a DVM (digital volt meter)? If so, measure from each wire
> (red-green) to earth ground at the Demarc. You should see 48VDC
> across the line, and nearly zero between each wire and ground. If you
> get the full voltage from one of the wires to ground, you have some
> device on your line shorted to ground. That will cause an imbalance
> and problems. However, you will also hear such a problem in the phone
> as 60Hz hum, so that's improbable.
is measuring it going to even accomplish? I know that usually, I can't
feel anything while touching phone wires (unless somebody is calling)
but this time I could.
> Ok, it's wired correctly. So much for the easy fix.
>
> at the line statistics and connection status.
> One of the common problems I keep blundering into is that the password
> has mysteriously changed. The symptom is rather odd. Instead of the
> desired web page, you get the AT&T troubleshooting web page, with
> offers to install tons of ActiveX controls into IE, and never mentions
> that all that's wrong is the password.
> It's going to cost. No clue how much.
help out my neighbor across the street.
>> I'm very tempted to wash my hands of the whole thing...
>
> Probably a good idea. Your responses to my suggestions and your
> troubleshooting methods could use some improvement. Good luck.
I could shadow you for a little while. Though I'm curious (it will only
help me out), what specifically makes you say that?
David Kaye
> One of the common problems I keep blundering into is that the password
> has mysteriously changed.
password was stored on the modem and the customer has no idea what the
password was because they never use it for anything. So, I have them going
through their "records" (aka drawers full of meaningless flyers for AOL
dial-up offers and instruction manuals for TVs they haven't owned in
years...) and try to come up with a password.
Usually I have to then phone AT&T and get the password reset, but they, of
course, want the customer ID from a phone bill and then I have to wait until
the customer can even find a bill ("Oh, my husband/wife takes care of
that...")
Thank goodness I charge by the hour...
David Kaye
> I worked in San Mateo and San Carlos from 1993 to 2008 with multiple
> clients and though it took about a year to establish credibility with
> PacBell (mostly with the CO at 28th Avenue and El Camino in San Mateo)
> from that point on they always rolled on my calls because my analysis
> of the problem always proved to be correct *AND* Pac Bell's fault.
I've also had no problem dealing with AT&T's techs. Thing is, when I first
get on the line with someone I tell them in detail exactly what I've done so
far. This usually impresses them enough to either dig deeper or hand me to
someone who can. In most situations I can get AT&T's help onboard in 15
minutes or less.
I think I mentioned here the time I had a customer with erratic DSL. The
tech and I came to the conclusion that my customer was too far away, so she
slowed down the DSL transport a little and the clashes stopped. That was
another one that got solved in less than 15 minutes.
Thad Floryan
> On 10/8/2011 6:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Do you have a DVM (digital volt meter)? If so, measure from each wire
>> (red-green) to earth ground at the Demarc. You should see 48VDC
>> across the line, and nearly zero between each wire and ground. If you
>> get the full voltage from one of the wires to ground, you have some
>> device on your line shorted to ground. That will cause an imbalance
>> and problems. However, you will also hear such a problem in the phone
>> as 60Hz hum, so that's improbable.
>
> Yes, I have one. How much is full voltage. But at the same time, what
> is measuring it going to even accomplish? I know that usually, I can't
> feel anything while touching phone wires (unless somebody is calling)
> but this time I could.
The line is nominally 48VDC; ringer voltage is ~ 90VDC.
Wet hands and a bare foot against a cold water pipe is another way
to test in the absence of a DVM; it's also a good way to induce
heart fibrillation. If the phone rings, be sure someone else is
nearby to laugh when your muscles contract and you go flying across
the room -- said person can also call 911 on your behalf if the
phone still works. :-)
Before anyone complains about the above, humor is a good way to
make a point among intelligent people. For example, I once saw
a sign over a urinal at Tymshare on East Meadow Drive in Palo
Alto in the 1960s:
Please don't throw cigarette butts in the urinal.
It makes them soggy and hard to light
Here's another one:
<http://www.flushedup.com/a-message-from-your-personal-bartender/>
and another:
<http://www.flushedup.com/that-is-a-bad-kind-of-infestation/>
While we're on humor, here's a replacement for High Speed Rail:
<http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/>
Believe it or not, it's not really fiction; here's the real one, a bus that
goes 160 MPH on public roads:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7wEaG2u-BY>
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7idJnIbVA>
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zQGCkxCFV0>
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/08/dutch-superbus-debut_n_846678.html>
Here are some other URLs with funny and bizarre stuff (all from the
same team):
<http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/>
<http://www.latenightmistakes.com/>
<http://www.beachcreeps.com/>
<http://americaninbreds.com/>
<http://www.latenightmistakes.com/category/wild-girls/>
<http://www.weddingunveils.com/>
<http://freaksoffastfood.com/>
<http://jawdrops.com/>
<http://www.whitetrashrepairs.com/>
<http://girlsinyogapants.com/>
<http://www.flushedup.com/>
<http://sillymillions.com/>
<http://drfugly.com/>
<http://www.wtftattoos.com/>
<http://www.thatsmyboss.com/>
<http://thatsmyroommate.com/>
<http://damnthatlooksgood.com/>
<http://hottestgirlsoncampus.com/>
<http://youdrivewhat.com/>
<http://www.memoryglands.com/>
jcdill
> Unless the owner has inside
> wiring (WirePro) insurance on her bill, anything the tech finds inside
> the house is billable.
I don't know how it works now, but years ago you could call in and add
the Inside Wiring plan to your bill, then *immediately* request a
service call, and the call would be covered by the Inside Wiring plan.
They count on you being too lazy to call back after the problem is fixed
to remove the Inside Wiring surcharge from your monthly bill.
So... I'd have her add the Inside Wiring (apparently WirePro now?) plan
immediately. Maybe, just maybe, it might pay for the upcoming service
call. Then you can remind her next week to remove that plan from her
bill so she doesn't get billed for it month after month...
jc
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>I don't know how it works now, but years ago you could call in and add
>the Inside Wiring plan to your bill, then *immediately* request a
>service call, and the call would be covered by the Inside Wiring plan.
>They count on you being too lazy to call back after the problem is fixed
>to remove the Inside Wiring surcharge from your monthly bill.
I don't know. That might work. It's certainly worth a try. I think
(not sure) that you can add WirePro service with just a mouse click
using their online account management thing. However, I do know that
it's impossible to remove WirePro, as that requires talking to a
human.
I'm one of those that was too lazy to drop WirePro. When it was
$3/month, it was not a big deal. I think it's now $7/month, which
adds up. My problem is that I've tried to drop WirePro and some other
added services something several times in the last 15 years. Each
time, the result was a variation on loss of DSL, strange services
added to the bill, and about a year ago, a mysterious disconnect order
which took about a month to untangle. I guess I should try again.
I also tried to get AT&T to install a new NID on the assumption that
paying 10+ years for WirePro would entitle me to getting something
useful for the money. I succeeded in doing that for other people, but
not for my line. When the AT&T tech arrived, he claimed (lied) that
he didn't have an NID boxes with him.
>So... I'd have her add the Inside Wiring (apparently WirePro now?) plan
>immediately. Maybe, just maybe, it might pay for the upcoming service
>call. Then you can remind her next week to remove that plan from her
>bill so she doesn't get billed for it month after month...
She may need to have it remain for about 2 months, until the service
call clears the billing maze.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>How much is full voltage.
Nominally 48VDC. Don't expect it to be exactly 48VDC. It will vary
and might be as low as 35VDC.
>But at the same time, what
>is measuring it going to even accomplish?
Check for a ground fault on the phone lines.
Check for possible 117VAC line leakage to the phone lines.
>I know that usually, I can't
>feel anything while touching phone wires (unless somebody is calling)
>but this time I could.
Don't step on the wet ground and you won't get fried.
>Well, as much as that sounds related, there is NO webpage. None at all.
OK, then you don't have an ATM circuit. If the DSL light is on, and
the POTS phone is functioning normally, but it fails ATM ping, then
it's probabaly something wrong at the DSLAM. Not much you can do
about it. I would replace the DSL modem just to be sure it's not the
modem. It's not the PPPoE login/password as that first requires an
ATM circuit to function.
>Well, I'm not paying for it, so it doesn't matter. I was just trying to
>help out my neighbor across the street.
Do unto others, as you would like them to do unto you. If someone was
helping YOU with YOUR problem, it would be considered helpful if they
would make an effort to save YOU some money. I suspect your neighbor
expects the same treatment from you.
You have until Weds to find a solution or at least identify the cause.
>I would like very much to be better. If I lived closer, I would ask if
>I could shadow you for a little while. Though I'm curious (it will only
>help me out), what specifically makes you say that?
Sure. We'll start with you asking questions in a Usenet newsgroup
that's suppose to be specific to San Francisco and Monterey Bay area
issues. Read before you write.
Your descriptions were moderately ambiguous, devoid of specifics, and
lacking in any numbers (numbers are always useful). When I attempted
to deduce some of the conditions and the modem model number, you again
answered in a vague manner, and did not verify or contradict any of my
guesswork. When I asked you to check for line conditions and
connection status on the modem web page, you apparently forgot to do
so.
Shadowing me won't help. I only get about 3 DSL related problems per
month these days. Most of them are related to wiring problems. I
have to do one this afternoon, that I suspect is a mouse or rat chewed
cable.
It may sound horrible, but the above is about what I would expect from
someone unfamiliar with DSL and telco operations. The buzzwords and
tests will come with experience. However, the marginal descriptions,
lack of numbers, and apparently disorganized troubleshooting
procedures are not going to be fixed without a concerted effort on
your part. You may want to proof read your postings and ask yourself
if anything can be misinterpreted, is ambiguous, or lacking in detail.
If I may be so rude as to offer personal advice.... I've noticed that
many people, who are not quite sure of what they are doing, tend to
both ask and answer questions in the most vague manner possible. You
seem to be heading in that direction. While politicians do this
automatically, but it's not really good practice for problem solving.
If being vague is your idea of a defense mechanism, may I suggest you
lose it and try something else.
Jeff Liebermann
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>
>> One of the common problems I keep blundering into is that the password
>> has mysteriously changed.
>
>I've done this myself, resetting the modem and then realizing that the
>password was stored on the modem and the customer has no idea what the
>password was because they never use it for anything.
You're not suppose to admit to doing that. The illusion of
infalibility must be maintained at all cost. However, now that you've
mentioned it, I've done the same thing all too often.
However, there's a new wrinkle on the AT&T password mess. The same
password was previously used for both the AT&T PPPoE login and the
Yahoo outsourced email. For about the last year, they can now be
different passwords. That's a good idea, but does cause some issues.
I once got myself into a mess with changing the passwords. Calling
AT&T support on the phone was like admitting defeat, so I decided to
be creative. I went to the DSL signup page at:
<https://attreg.att.net>
and logged in with an existing account. If the PPPoE login fails,
that's the only page you can view anyway. It eventually produces a
web page with all the logins, passwords, security questions, and
details. It won't print directly, but a graphics screen dump is
sufficient to make a permanent copy for the customer. That was about
6 months ago and I don't know if it still works.
>So, I have them going
>through their "records" (aka drawers full of meaningless flyers for AOL
>dial-up offers and instruction manuals for TVs they haven't owned in
>years...) and try to come up with a password.
Yellow post it note on the bottom of the DSL modem?
>Usually I have to then phone AT&T and get the password reset, but they, of
>course, want the customer ID from a phone bill and then I have to wait until
>the customer can even find a bill ("Oh, my husband/wife takes care of
>that...")
Been there, many times. You can usually get around the problem by
answering the security questions.
>Thank goodness I charge by the hour...
Give the customer the fix for free, but charge for the travel,
equipment depreciation, parts, etc? It should be about the same.
Jeff Sutter
>
> She said that she called ATT, and that they are sending out a technician
> on Wednesday.
>
> I'm very tempted to wash my hands of the whole thing...
"No good deed goes unpunished".
Pro-bono work for the elderly is nice and all, but unless they're
truly broke, i.e. not-a-homeowner, there is nothing wrong with
encouraging them to (a) subscribe WirePro @ $84/year and (b) schedule
a technician visit, even if charges result, including the "new modem"
sale. Its OK for them to spend their money.
If you truly want to help them, do the obvious: have them mark their
calendar for the contract renewal date, and migrate them to Sonic or
the local cable company - the latter is usually more forgiving on
service calls.
Anthony
> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:58:32 -0700, Anthony<duke...@sonic.net>
> wrote:
>
>> How much is full voltage.
>
> Nominally 48VDC. Don't expect it to be exactly 48VDC. It will vary
> and might be as low as 35VDC.
>
> Check for possible 117VAC line leakage to the phone lines.
>
I will check for all that.
> Don't step on the wet ground and you won't get fried.
Yeah, that would make sense. Unfortunately for me, the demarc box is
surrounded by vegetation in a radius of at least 4 feet.
> OK, then you don't have an ATM circuit. If the DSL light is on, and
> the POTS phone is functioning normally, but it fails ATM ping, then
> it's probabaly something wrong at the DSLAM. Not much you can do
> about it. I would replace the DSL modem just to be sure it's not the
> modem. It's not the PPPoE login/password as that first requires an
> ATM circuit to function.
> Do unto others, as you would like them to do unto you. If someone was
> helping YOU with YOUR problem, it would be considered helpful if they
> would make an effort to save YOU some money. I suspect your neighbor
> expects the same treatment from you.
Well, I am at least trying to help out this lady. Nobody else is doing
that.
> Sure. We'll start with you asking questions in a Usenet newsgroup
> that's suppose to be specific to San Francisco and Monterey Bay area
> issues. Read before you write.
I used to live in Santa Rosa, now I live in Chico. I know the scope of
this group, but I'm still in Northern Cal, and things can't be that
different here, it's really not THAT far away, and still ATT territory.
For a long time, I've been a lurker and very occasional participant in
this group. This group is the only place I know of that has people that
are actually helpful, regularly reply, and somewhat local-ish, so even
if I wanted to, I'd actually be hard pressed to find a better source of
information. Plus since I've been a lurker here for so long, I actually
feel comfortable with most of the regular names involved.
> Your descriptions were moderately ambiguous, devoid of specifics, and
> lacking in any numbers (numbers are always useful). When I attempted
> to deduce some of the conditions and the modem model number, you again
> answered in a vague manner, and did not verify or contradict any of my
> guesswork. When I asked you to check for line conditions and
> connection status on the modem web page, you apparently forgot to do
> so.
I was going back over the posts in this thread, and I don't see anything
where you asked for any line statistics. Please correct me if I'm wrong
about that though. I seem to recall saying in one of my earlier posts
dated 10/5/11 5:51 PM "there is no model number written on it" though.
In my mind, I was trying to be vague, I was trying to describe things as
best I knew how. I don't recall seeing any actual statistics on the
line, but I'll double-check on Monday. Just in case, what are the
numbers you want me to check?
> Shadowing me won't help. I only get about 3 DSL related problems per
> month these days. Most of them are related to wiring problems. I
> have to do one this afternoon, that I suspect is a mouse or rat chewed
> cable.
>
> It may sound horrible, but the above is about what I would expect from
> someone unfamiliar with DSL and telco operations. The buzzwords and
> tests will come with experience. However, the marginal descriptions,
> lack of numbers, and apparently disorganized troubleshooting
> procedures are not going to be fixed without a concerted effort on
> your part. You may want to proof read your postings and ask yourself
> if anything can be misinterpreted, is ambiguous, or lacking in detail.
> If I may be so rude as to offer personal advice.... I've noticed that
> many people, who are not quite sure of what they are doing, tend to
> both ask and answer questions in the most vague manner possible. You
> seem to be heading in that direction. While politicians do this
> automatically, but it's not really good practice for problem solving.
> If being vague is your idea of a defense mechanism, may I suggest you
> lose it and try something else.
Just chalk it up to inexperience and inability to find anyone that I
really click with to follow around. As I've said, I'd really like to be
better, I really would. If I post anything that can be misinterpreted,
I don't have anything to back it up with, I don't have any more detailed
information without going back to the customer's house, which I'm sorta
trying to lay low on. I'll try to do better next time I'm there. This
cheapo DSL modem may not give the statistics that you want. I don't
recall seeing anything like that.
David Kaye
> Pro-bono work for the elderly is nice and all, but unless they're
> truly broke, i.e. not-a-homeowner, there is nothing wrong with
I do pro bono work for my friends all the time, but not for strangers. My
philosophy is that my friends have earned my friendship by being there for
me. There are some people I will do just about anything to help, including
dropping what I'm doing and driving 25 miles. A couple weeks ago I played
my button accordion for free for 6 hours straight at a street party arranged
by Chicken John to sell his book and in turn pay down his mortgage. I'll be
helping out on a Halloween party for over 900 kids this Halloween, which
will take all my day and all my night. But the people in this social group
are friends who are there for me.
But, well, strangers are strangers. If people don't spend their lives
developing a social network, it's not my fault. What have they been doing
all their lives, hiding out at home and writing nastygrams at the bottom of
Yahoo and SF Gate news stories?
I am the same way toward the homeless, aka street bums. Where's your circle
of friends? How many bridges did you burn to get into the situation where
you have absolutely nobody? What have you done for others? How can anyone
possibly become an adult and have absolutely no social network?
By the way, this is one of the reasons why few of my home customers are
under age 40 -- the young'uns maintain social networks so they know people
who'll work on their computers.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Yeah, that would make sense. Unfortunately for me, the demarc box is
>surrounded by vegetation in a radius of at least 4 feet.
I just did a Sunday afternoon DSL service call. The demarc was
located in the middle of a dog run. Before I could start, I had to
shovel the dog droppings out of the way. As soon as I got close to
the dog run, the mutt went nuts. However, it wasn't a territorial
problem. The dog doesn't like anyone that wears a hat. Nothing wrong
at the demarc.
Incidentally, todays modem was a shiny new Motorola NVG510 U-verse
modem. 10Mbits/sec down, 0.9Mbits/sec up. 10 msec latency. 10K ft
from the CO. Zero jitter. I was impressed. After 3 different AT&T
techs couldn't make it work right, I found the intermittent ethernet
cable, bad wireless driver, wrong place for a proxy server, and a
trojan.bho virus.
>Well, I am at least trying to help out this lady. Nobody else is doing
>that.
That's the way it usually works. Many people are afraid to ask for
help. Some also forget to say thanks (like me). At least you're
trying.
>For a long time, I've been a lurker and very occasional participant in
>this group. This group is the only place I know of that has people that
>are actually helpful, regularly reply, and somewhat local-ish, so even
>if I wanted to, I'd actually be hard pressed to find a better source of
>information. Plus since I've been a lurker here for so long, I actually
>feel comfortable with most of the regular names involved.
I don't think anyone is overtly concerned exactly where you live. The
problem is that many discussions involve ISP's, topics, and politics
that are unique to the area. I guess you do read before you post.
This is good.
>I was going back over the posts in this thread, and I don't see anything
>where you asked for any line statistics.
Quoting myself:
Dive into the web based config at 192.168.1.254 and see if there's
a page showing DSL connection status. I'm fairly sure you don't
have an ATM circuit, and certainly not an IP address. While you're
there, look around for unplugged phone cables and new devices.
Check AGAIN for dial tone at the DSL modem. Bring your own POTS
instrument to be sure.
I guess you're right. Connection status means what are the numbers on
the DSL connection page. Things like SNR (signal to noise ratio) and
line levels.
<http://www.dslreports.com/faq/7036>
<http://www.dslreports.com/faq/6096>
<http://www.dslreports.com/faq/11010>
Note that these are from SE Bell, which will have different settings,
models, firmware, etc.
>about that though. I seem to recall saying in one of my earlier posts
>dated 10/5/11 5:51 PM "there is no model number written on it" though.
>In my mind, I was trying to be vague, I was trying to describe things as
>best I knew how.
I got the number from the 4 photos you posted. The problem is that
the one of the serial number tag was out of focus and very small. I
only decoded the number because I had a 6100 in my hand for
comparison. The model number is buried in the middle of a longer part
number. Typing that number into a Google search should have yielded
the model number. Also, typing my guess of a Westel 6100 into Google
Images should have returned many photos.
>I don't recall seeing any actual statistics on the
>line, but I'll double-check on Monday. Just in case, what are the
>numbers you want me to check?
These:
<http://i.dslr.net/pics/faqs/image92621.gif>
Here's a table for what the numbers mean.
<http://www.dslreports.com/faq/16220>
<http://www.dslreports.com/faq/6734>
I don't expect problems here, but I've seen some surprises, so it's a
good idea to check line levels.
>This
>cheapo DSL modem may not give the statistics that you want. I don't
>recall seeing anything like that.
There's quite a bit under the "statistics" section. Look for anything
that looks like an error or an error rate. I don't have a 6100 handy
to offer a specific web page. The basic plan is to determine why it's
failing ATM ping. (Hint: Always start troubleshooting from the
BOTTOM of the protocol stack).