problems with ATT/SBCglobal/Yahoo DSL going out each night
JC Dill
ATT/SBCGlobal/Yahoo DSL line. (The bill comes from and is paid to
AT&T.) She's near the end of the distance from the CO for a DSL line.
It works great, until it doesn't.
Each night (more than 50% of the time) around 7 pm, her DSL goes down.
It stays down until past midnight.
The DSL modem has "all green lights" as if everything is working fine,
but it's not. The modem has an IP address, but it doesn't route
anything. It says it has 800 kbps down, 300 kbps up, but she has no
internet connectivity. She's connected wireless, but if she plugs in
with ethernet, the problem still persists.
She doesn't have a POTS line - this is a dry loop. When this line was
installed it worked fine for 2 weeks. Then a neighbor had a new line
put in, and the tech saw her "dry loop" line as available (because it
has no dial tone) and took it for the neighbor's new line. It took a
week before they finally got her DSL working again, and this problem has
shown up ever since.
Can anyone shed any light on what might be happening to cause her DSL
line to "go down" every night from 7-12 (or so), around 70% of the time?
A tech was supposed to come today between "4 and 8" and simply decided
to no-show. When she called she was told she had been put on a list for
"first thing tomorrow morning" which is of course useless - A) the
problem doesn't occur in the morning, and B) she has to work tomorrow
and won't be here. The appointment is now rescheduled for Friday
"between 4 and 8".
Does anyone know the "magic words" she needs to use to get them to send
at tech out in the evening when the problem is actually happening, to
help solve this? They have come out at least 6 times "during the day"
when this problem isn't occurring, declared that there is no problem,
and have closed the ticket. Then a day or two later, the problem
happens again, she calls in again, etc. At least 50% of the time when
they make an appointment they no-show (like today). The problem has
been ongoing since June.
Thanks!
jc
JC Dill
> A friend of mine lives in the boonies near Moss Landing. She has an
> ATT/SBCGlobal/Yahoo DSL line. (The bill comes from and is paid to
> AT&T.) She's near the end of the distance from the CO for a DSL line.
> It works great, until it doesn't.
Oh, I should add that she often telecommutes and works from home during
the day, and this problem never occurs during the day - only after 7 pm
at night.
jc
Steve Pope
>JC Dill wrote:
Is this a PPPoE line? Does it always gain an IP address
upon reconnect?
I have had various ATT DSL connectivity problems, but one
usual symptom is no IP address after an attempted connect.
This more recently happened when I tried to hard-code the
DNS server addresses into the router, causing an unknown
unexpected inability to authenticate.
Sounds like you're facing something other than this.
Steve
Bill Z.
> A friend of mine lives in the boonies near Moss Landing. She has an
> ATT/SBCGlobal/Yahoo DSL line. (The bill comes from and is paid to
> AT&T.) She's near the end of the distance from the CO for a DSL
> line. It works great, until it doesn't.
>
> Each night (more than 50% of the time) around 7 pm, her DSL goes
> down. It stays down until past midnight.
I had a similar experience for a few months in Palo Alto. They tried
to tell me my modem was "weak" and I needed a new one. Finally they
tried to fix the problem by reducing the peak bandwidth I could get.
A few months later, they turned it back up to its normal speed and the
problem didn't return. I'm at a loss to explain why I'd start getting
50 percent packet loss (with the modem losing and reestablishing its
connection very frequently) and then have the problem go completely
away if there really was a problem with my modem. A friend living
about a 1/2 mile away, and closer to the central office, had a similar
problem. They suggested changing the modem too, and when that didn't
fix the problem, he made them take the new one back.
I suspect someone had done something to my telephone line or there
was a problem at the DSLAM, but I had no way of checking.
Regardless, having failures that occur at particular times of the day
sounds very suspicious - that's not the way modems usually fail.
--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
Bill Z.
> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>JC Dill wrote:
>
>>> A friend of mine lives in the boonies near Moss Landing. She has an
>>> ATT/SBCGlobal/Yahoo DSL line. (The bill comes from and is paid to
>>> AT&T.) She's near the end of the distance from the CO for a DSL line.
>>> It works great, until it doesn't.
>
>>Oh, I should add that she often telecommutes and works from home during
>>the day, and this problem never occurs during the day - only after 7 pm
>>at night.
>
> Is this a PPPoE line? Does it always gain an IP address
> upon reconnect?
I saw the same sort of behavior (it sort of fixed itself eventually as
I described in another post) and did not use PPPoE.
David Kaye
> Each night (more than 50% of the time) around 7 pm, her DSL goes down.
> It stays down until past midnight.
It sounds like there is someone else on the line and they download
lots of stuff between 7 and midnight.
Or else maybe it's a distance problem combined with nearby circuits
inducing noise into the line when they're active at night. In that
case maybe if AT&T slowed down their service a bit the signals
wouldn't get jumbled. That happened to a client of mine -- the line
would choke from time to time and reducing the signal speed made the
circuit reliable.
> Does anyone know the "magic words" she needs to use to get them to send
> at tech out in the evening when the problem is actually happening, to
> help solve this?
The magic words are "Dane Jasper." Seriously, go with Sonic.net. You
don't need the aggravation, and they're pros at dealing with AT&T's
bureaucracy. She'll have to have AT&T residential phone service,
though. That's the only drag.
JC Dill
> The magic words are "Dane Jasper." Seriously, go with Sonic.net. You
> don't need the aggravation, and they're pros at dealing with AT&T's
> bureaucracy. She'll have to have AT&T residential phone service,
> though. That's the only drag.
She's paying $24 a month for this line, and no POTS. The cost would go
up dramatically if she has to get a POTS line.
There's no way to find the "actual rate" on Sonic's website. GRRR. All
they show is the teaser "introductory" rates.
jc
JC Dill
> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JC Dill wrote:
>
>>> A friend of mine lives in the boonies near Moss Landing. She has an
>>> ATT/SBCGlobal/Yahoo DSL line. (The bill comes from and is paid to
>>> AT&T.) She's near the end of the distance from the CO for a DSL line.
>>> It works great, until it doesn't.
>
>> Oh, I should add that she often telecommutes and works from home during
>> the day, and this problem never occurs during the day - only after 7 pm
>> at night.
>
> Is this a PPPoE line? Does it always gain an IP address
> upon reconnect?
Yes. It always *has* an IP address, and it says it's connected (and all
the modem lights are green) even when she can't get email or reach any
websites.
jc
JC Dill
> Regardless, having failures that occur at particular times of the day
> sounds very suspicious - that's not the way modems usually fail.
I know. It sounds like someone else is doing something at home that
time of night and it's affecting her line.
The first question she gets asked is if she has "all the filters in
place" but since there is no POTS service on this line, there are no
filters. I'm wondering if perhaps she has cross-talk on this line, that
somehow POTS is cross-wired into this line and the voice traffic in the
evening is affecting the line. Would the modem still show all green
lights when this is happening?
The bigger question is how to get AT&T to take it seriously that this
problem has been happening since JUNE and they have YET to dispatch a
tech during the hours when the problem occurs. What magic words do we
need to invoke? Is it "I'm going to write a letter to the PUC?" Is it
"I demand a service credit for every time I called and your tech
no-showed or failed to show up during the hours when the problem
occurred?" Certainly there's *some* way to make it clear that this is
not being fixed and they need to step up and fix it.
Thanks!
jc
Bill Z.
> Bill Z. wrote:
>
>> Regardless, having failures that occur at particular times of the day
>> sounds very suspicious - that's not the way modems usually fail.
>
> I know. It sounds like someone else is doing something at home that
> time of night and it's affecting her line.
>
> The first question she gets asked is if she has "all the filters in
> place" but since there is no POTS service on this line, there are no
> filters. I'm wondering if perhaps she has cross-talk on this line,
> that somehow POTS is cross-wired into this line and the voice traffic
> in the evening is affecting the line. Would the modem still show all
> green lights when this is happening?
The symptoms I had were that the modem was going up and down like a
yoyo, but it was not co-located with my computer, so sometimes by the
time I got to it to check, the connection would have been
re-established. There was nothing else going on when I saw the problem
- just had the lights on, the computer, modem, etc., but no other
electrical device. If someone had used the same IP address, that
would have caused problems but would not make the modem lose its
connection.
At about the same time, I had a few failures where Internet service
would go out for a few days at a time, for some reason preferentially
at the start of three-day weekends.
There were no cross-talk symptoms on a voice line and no correlation
that I could notice with weather (e.g., water leaking into something
making any cross talk worse).
The odd thing was it eventually clearing up on its own plus the time
of day thing. Possibly something got fixed during routine
maintenance or they were doing some upgrades they didn't tell anyone
about and preferred the evenings so as not to disrupt business users,
but regardless, it was very strange.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Each night (more than 50% of the time) around 7 pm, her DSL goes down.
>It stays down until past midnight.
1. Interference from other users on the same cable bundle.
2. Low signal levels caused by lack of microfilters, rotten inside
wiring, backwards microfitlers, etc.
3. Wiring issues either inside the house or to the CO?
4. Defective or failed DSL modem.
>internet connectivity. She's connected wireless, but if she plugs in
>with ethernet, the problem still persists.
What maker and model DSL modem/router/wireless? Kinda sounds like a
2wire 2701HG?
How far from the CO?
If so, dive into the diagnostics for the modem and get the line
parameters when it's working and when it fails. For 2wire, it's:
http://192.168.1.254
http://router.2wire.net
There's also some better diagnostics at:
http://router.2wire.net/mdc/ (Mgmt Diag Console)
While handy, the SYNC light on the modem will not go out until the
connection is totally lost. In the distant past, the Efficient 52xx
series of DSL modems would drop the sync light at the slightest line
hickup. That generated too many trouble calls, so they just increased
the time delay before the light goes out. I think it's about 30
seconds of carrier loss for the current modems. Try it by unplugging
the line and see how long it takes to drop the light.
Has she tried rebooting (power cycle) the DSL modem/router/wireless?
Make sure it's unplugged for at least 10-15 seconds.
>She doesn't have a POTS line - this is a dry loop. When this line was
>installed it worked fine for 2 weeks. Then a neighbor had a new line
>put in, and the tech saw her "dry loop" line as available (because it
>has no dial tone) and took it for the neighbor's new line. It took a
>week before they finally got her DSL working again, and this problem has
>shown up ever since.
I smell a wiring problem. Split pairs and differential capacitance to
ground problems were easy to detect with a POTS line because you could
call the test board (411) and have them run an automated test.
However, that doesn't seem to be available on the new "dry" DSL lines.
My guess is a wiring problem, somewhere.
>Can anyone shed any light on what might be happening to cause her DSL
>line to "go down" every night from 7-12 (or so), around 70% of the time?
AT&T bureaucracy, ineptitude, greed, sloppiness, lack of experience,
lack of clues, outsourcing, etc.
>Does anyone know the "magic words" she needs to use to get them to send
>at tech out in the evening when the problem is actually happening, to
>help solve this?
No. I've been very lucky in getting AT&T to show up for installs at
the appointed times. I've had zero luck getting the same techs to
show up for repair and rework appointments. The reason is that
install onsite times are fairly easy to predict, while repair and
troubleshooting jobs vary wildly. The choice is to either leave the
problem unfixed and make the next appointment on time, or work on the
problem until its fixed thus forcing a reschedule for subsequent
appointments. Not a pleasant choice, but experience has found that
leaving a job unfinished guarantees an irate customer, while being
late or rescheduling is the lesser evil.
>They have come out at least 6 times "during the day"
>when this problem isn't occurring, declared that there is no problem,
>and have closed the ticket. Then a day or two later, the problem
>happens again, she calls in again, etc. At least 50% of the time when
>they make an appointment they no-show (like today). The problem has
>been ongoing since June.
Sigh. Want me to take a look with my Acterna HST-3000B DSL tester? I
bought it for situations like this. Most of the problems that meet
your description turn out to be inside wiring problems that are solved
by installing an external DSL splitter.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Steve Pope
>The bigger question is how to get AT&T to take it seriously that this
>problem has been happening since JUNE and they have YET to dispatch a
>tech during the hours when the problem occurs. What magic words do we
>need to invoke?
They can't see the weak traffic pattern remotely when it
is happening?
I would think it'd be pretty easy to convince them of this....
S.
QN
someone else's service. A physical visit from a repairperson could check
for that, even outside of the hours where the DSL goes down.
JC Dill
> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The bigger question is how to get AT&T to take it seriously that this
>> problem has been happening since JUNE and they have YET to dispatch a
>> tech during the hours when the problem occurs. What magic words do we
>> need to invoke?
>
> They can't see the weak traffic pattern remotely when it
> is happening?
They won't *check*! I spent over an hour on the phone last night being
bounced from group to group (and 30 minutes "on hold for a supervisor"
who never answered, and I had to hang up and dial again). It's like
trying to nail Jello to a wall. They just check the status of the modem
- either they can reach it or they can't. I couldn't get them to do
anything else.
> I would think it'd be pretty easy to convince them of this....
I need the magic words that will get their attention and get some action
on this!
jc
Eric Weaver
> I need the magic words that will get their attention and get some action
> on this!
You can try "Formal Complaint to the PUC" but that may not do anything
any more, especially on an unregulated service like DSL.
JC Dill
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:42:31 -0700, JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Each night (more than 50% of the time) around 7 pm, her DSL goes down.
>> It stays down until past midnight.
>
> 1. Interference from other users on the same cable bundle.
> 2. Low signal levels caused by lack of microfilters, rotten inside
> wiring, backwards microfitlers, etc.
> 3. Wiring issues either inside the house or to the CO?
> 4. Defective or failed DSL modem.
Her home has relatively new wiring. The problem occurs like clockwork -
in the evening, which tends to point to something other than the modem.
Techs have been out numerous times during the day and "everything is
working" and they try to close the ticket.
There are no filters on the line because there's no POTS on the line.
I have been thinking it was an interference problem all along, but how
do we get them to recognize this and FIX it if we can't get them out
when the problem is actually happening?
One problem is that there's a dearth of copper on her street. It's a
dead-end rural road with about 20 homes on it. Over the years these
homes have added guest houses or live-in trailers, added residents and
tenants (who want their own phone lines), people who have fax lines,
etc. Cellular coverage can be spotty in several sections along this
road so we don't have that many people giving up their POTS lines for
cell phones as is happening in other areas.
Additionally, the line worked *perfectly* for the first 2 weeks until
they stole her copper to install someone else's phone line. So this
brings me back to the suggestion that the problem is with the copper
line they put her DSL on - rather than giving her back her initial
copper line they just brought her up on some skanky unused copper in the
bundle (left unused because they get complaints if they try to use it
for voice calls?) and now she has problems.
>> internet connectivity. She's connected wireless, but if she plugs in
>> with ethernet, the problem still persists.
>
> What maker and model DSL modem/router/wireless? Kinda sounds like a
> 2wire 2701HG?
Yes, it's the 2-wire 2701-HG-B model.
> How far from the CO?
Far. She was told that she is "almost too far" to get DSL at all.
> If so, dive into the diagnostics for the modem and get the line
> parameters when it's working and when it fails. For 2wire, it's:
> http://192.168.1.254
> http://router.2wire.net
> There's also some better diagnostics at:
> http://router.2wire.net/mdc/ (Mgmt Diag Console)
I will have her check.
> While handy, the SYNC light on the modem will not go out until the
> connection is totally lost.
That is *very* good to know.
> In the distant past, the Efficient 52xx
> series of DSL modems would drop the sync light at the slightest line
> hickup. That generated too many trouble calls, so they just increased
> the time delay before the light goes out. I think it's about 30
> seconds of carrier loss for the current modems. Try it by unplugging
> the line and see how long it takes to drop the light.
>
> Has she tried rebooting (power cycle) the DSL modem/router/wireless?
> Make sure it's unplugged for at least 10-15 seconds.
We didn't try it last night, but I believe she has tried this in the past.
Power cycling the modem isn't going to solve the underlying problem,
which is this happens each night (more than 50% of the time) at around 7 pm.
>> She doesn't have a POTS line - this is a dry loop. When this line was
>> installed it worked fine for 2 weeks. Then a neighbor had a new line
>> put in, and the tech saw her "dry loop" line as available (because it
>> has no dial tone) and took it for the neighbor's new line. It took a
>> week before they finally got her DSL working again, and this problem has
>> shown up ever since.
>
> I smell a wiring problem. Split pairs and differential capacitance to
> ground problems were easy to detect with a POTS line because you could
> call the test board (411) and have them run an automated test.
> However, that doesn't seem to be available on the new "dry" DSL lines.
> My guess is a wiring problem, somewhere.
Ditto.
>> Can anyone shed any light on what might be happening to cause her DSL
>> line to "go down" every night from 7-12 (or so), around 70% of the time?
>
> AT&T bureaucracy, ineptitude, greed, sloppiness, lack of experience,
> lack of clues, outsourcing, etc.
Those are all social reasons why it's not getting fixed - what I'm
looking for are the technological reasons. :-)
>> Does anyone know the "magic words" she needs to use to get them to send
>> at tech out in the evening when the problem is actually happening, to
>> help solve this?
>
> No. I've been very lucky in getting AT&T to show up for installs at
> the appointed times. I've had zero luck getting the same techs to
> show up for repair and rework appointments. The reason is that
> install onsite times are fairly easy to predict, while repair and
> troubleshooting jobs vary wildly. The choice is to either leave the
> problem unfixed and make the next appointment on time, or work on the
> problem until its fixed thus forcing a reschedule for subsequent
> appointments. Not a pleasant choice, but experience has found that
> leaving a job unfinished guarantees an irate customer, while being
> late or rescheduling is the lesser evil.
Yes but, they have been doing it to this problem over and over. And
because this problem only occurs in the evening, it doesn't work to try
to schedule them for "first thing in the morning" to get put at the
beginning of the schedule.
>> They have come out at least 6 times "during the day"
>> when this problem isn't occurring, declared that there is no problem,
>> and have closed the ticket. Then a day or two later, the problem
>> happens again, she calls in again, etc. At least 50% of the time when
>> they make an appointment they no-show (like today). The problem has
>> been ongoing since June.
>
> Sigh. Want me to take a look with my Acterna HST-3000B DSL tester? I
> bought it for situations like this. Most of the problems that meet
> your description turn out to be inside wiring problems that are solved
> by installing an external DSL splitter.
I'm hoping to avoid asking you to come all this way to test, when we
*should* be able to get the techs to come do their job.
Is there any magic phrase to use to get them to check for line
interference that might show up even when the DSL is "working" at the
time they come out? (For instance, if they come out at 4 pm on Friday,
before the problem starts showing up.) Is there any magic phrase to use
to get them to simply move her DSL service to another copper line?
Thanks!
jc
Steve Pope
>Steve Pope wrote:
>> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The bigger question is how to get AT&T to take it seriously that this
>>> problem has been happening since JUNE and they have YET to dispatch a
>>> tech during the hours when the problem occurs. What magic words do we
>>> need to invoke?
>> They can't see the weak traffic pattern remotely when it
>> is happening?
>They won't *check*! I spent over an hour on the phone last night being
>bounced from group to group (and 30 minutes "on hold for a supervisor"
>who never answered, and I had to hang up and dial again). It's like
>trying to nail Jello to a wall. They just check the status of the modem
>- either they can reach it or they can't. I couldn't get them to do
>anything else.
Perhaps your friend's line is under-provisioned and does
not have the usual diagnostic capability. They would normally
be able to see all the traffic stats. Maybe it's behind a
repeater or something.
I think the one comment about a bridged line is a real possibility.
Maybe you could listen to the line for obvious crosstalk --
conversations occuring in the evening hours. (But even if
observed, it may not be enough to get ATT to move...)
S.
JC Dill
> I think the one comment about a bridged line is a real possibility.
> Maybe you could listen to the line for obvious crosstalk --
> conversations occuring in the evening hours. (But even if
> observed, it may not be enough to get ATT to move...)
There is no POTS on this line. How can we "listen" to the line?
jc
Steve Pope
>Steve Pope wrote:
I am thinking that if you connected a phone to the line,
you may be able to hear crosstalk, and it may be there
only in the evening.
Steve
JC Dill
Hmmm. I'll see if she has a POTS phone stashed away, or if she can
borrow one to test for this.
jc
Bill Z.
> Is there any magic phrase to use to get them to check for line
> interference that might show up even when the DSL is "working" at the
> time they come out?
Try the phrase "PUC" if all else fails, unless someone knows a more
appropriate agency to name.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Her home has relatively new wiring. The problem occurs like clockwork -
>in the evening, which tends to point to something other than the modem.
It can be almost anything. Back in the daze of dialup, my Cruzio
dialup connection would magically slow from about 33kbit/sec down to
about 10kbits/sec at appoximately 12:30AM, plus or minus 30 mins. It
was eventually traced down to MaBell putting the T1 backhaul into
preventive maintenance mode at this time and then leaving it run for
months.
I've also seen such periodic failures result from something the
customer is doing in their house. Turning on the plasma display TV
generated so much RFI/EMI that it affected the nearby DSL lines. I
know it's backwards, but if you ever see it work at night, but fail
during daylight hours, look for a noisy solar power inverter. Lots of
other possibilities.
What would be interesting is to do some monitoring. Find a suitable
machine, disable power management, and run some kind of ping utility
to check for DSL uptime. For example:
<http://www.tools4ever.com/products/free/freeping/>
Set it up to ping the DSL modem (192.168.1.254), the default gateway
at the ISP (dig it out of the DSL modem configs), and some major
internet server (www.google.com). Ping every 10 mins is fine. Then,
run it over night. I would be interested in knowing:
1. When it dies.
2. Does it go on and off or just stay dead all night?
3. Does the latency change overnight?
4. When does it come back to life.
Unfortunately, FreePing doesn't generate historical graphs or tabular
data. The 30 day demo of PRTG Network Monitor does.
<http://www.paessler.com/prtg7>
30 days should be sufficient to get the necessary numbers.
>There are no filters on the line because there's no POTS on the line.
Duh. Sorry, I wasn't thinking.
>I have been thinking it was an interference problem all along, but how
>do we get them to recognize this and FIX it if we can't get them out
>when the problem is actually happening?
Timing is everything. Try to get about 3-5 days worth of uptime
history. If you want, I can setup a data logger and grab the SNR and
line levels. It's very difficult to fix an intermittent problem with
only a single data point. There's always a pattern which is why I'm
asking for numbers. Once the pattern is found, a better guess can be
made. For example, I had to deal with a bad case of wireless
interference. Every day, at about 7PM, the wireless link would just
die for 3 to 10 minutes. It was eventually traced to the caretakers
microwave oven leaking badly. I would not have found it without the
numbers.
>One problem is that there's a dearth of copper on her street. It's a
>dead-end rural road with about 20 homes on it. Over the years these
>homes have added guest houses or live-in trailers, added residents and
>tenants (who want their own phone lines), people who have fax lines,
>etc. Cellular coverage can be spotty in several sections along this
>road so we don't have that many people giving up their POTS lines for
>cell phones as is happening in other areas.
Verizon will install a nano-cellular system in the area if someone is
willing to contribute some DSL backhaul bandwidth. The $250 initial
cost can be spread between the Verizon users. I don't know of anyone
that has actually done this so please treat this only as something
that might be investigated.
Even if all 20 homes all had DSL, there would not be sufficient
interference in the cable bundle to cause a problem. On a 100 pair
bundle, it takes about 50 lines to begin seeing crosstalk. Note that
I can indirectly see the effects of crosstalk quite clearly on my
tester.
It would be interesting to know if any of the other nearby residents
have DSL and with what level of performance.
>Additionally, the line worked *perfectly* for the first 2 weeks until
>they stole her copper to install someone else's phone line. So this
>brings me back to the suggestion that the problem is with the copper
>line they put her DSL on - rather than giving her back her initial
>copper line they just brought her up on some skanky unused copper in the
>bundle (left unused because they get complaints if they try to use it
>for voice calls?) and now she has problems.
Yep. That's the most likely culprit. The problem is what to do about
it. If the cable bundle is only 25 pairs, getting another line will
be a problem. Worse, the only way you can get a "guaranteed"
replacement pair is to complain about the POTS service. POTS is
regulated by the PUC, while DSL is regulated by the FCC.
One problem that I've seen on shared POTS/DSL lines is a high
resistance wire connection. The symptoms are that DSL works, but POTS
does not. DSL can handle considerably more series resistance than
POTS. Every time I've seen this, it's a bad crimp or splace somewhere
along the line to the CO. It can be traced with a TDR, but that
requires the test board to run a test, which they only seem to
(currently) do for POTS lines.
>Yes, it's the 2-wire 2701-HG-B model.
Good modem. When they do fail, they usually just go comatose. I
haven't seen one that matches the symptoms or even close. Some of the
early versions (glossy white case instead of semi-dull white case) had
problems with the 5V 3A(?) wall wart. They go too hot and would drop
in voltage. Ask her if the wall wart is overheating.
>> How far from the CO?
>
>Far. She was told that she is "almost too far" to get DSL at all.
Far out. That may also be part of the problem. Each part of the
problem may be trivial, but combined, the results are predicatable.
Long lines, bad wiring, potentially bad inside wiring, and possible
intererence, all point a marginal situation. SNR and line levels are
everything. Got numbers?
Noise Margin (or Signal to Noise Margin or Signal to Noise Ratio)
Relative strength of the DSL signal to Noise ratio. 6dB is the lowest
dB manufactures specify for modem to be able to synch. In some
instances interleaving can help raise the noise margin to an
acceptable level. The higher the number the better for this
measurement.
6dB or less just won't work.
7dB-10dB is tolerable but will be flaky.
11dB-20dB is good with no synch problems
20dB-28dB is excellent.
29dB means you're next door to the CO.
Line Attenuation
How much the signal has degraded between the DSLAM and the modem.
Maximum loss is about 60dB. Smaller numbers are better.
20dB and below means you're next door to the CO.
20dB-30dB is excellent.
30dB-40dB is very good.
40dB-50dB is good.
50dB-60dB is lousy and will cause connection problems.
60dB or above isn't going to work.
Also, look for CRC errors.
>> There's also some better diagnostics at:
>> http://router.2wire.net/mdc/ (Mgmt Diag Console)
>I will have her check.
>> While handy, the SYNC light on the modem will not go out until the
>> connection is totally lost.
>That is *very* good to know.
Try it. Just unplug the DSL line and start the timer. I can supply
some typical examples if you want (which means I have to drag home a
box of DSL modems which is not my idea of fun).
>> AT&T bureaucracy, ineptitude, greed, sloppiness, lack of experience,
>> lack of clues, outsourcing, etc.
>
>Those are all social reasons why it's not getting fixed - what I'm
>looking for are the technological reasons. :-)
Sorry, I don't have a magic buzzword that will make the outsourced
support droid in India find the proper page in his scripted
troubleshooting procedure. One reason I bought the DSL tester is that
I can read off the numbers from the tester, which establishes some
level of credibility with the support people.
>Yes but, they have been doing it to this problem over and over.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
different results. (Albert Einstein)
>I'm hoping to avoid asking you to come all this way to test, when we
>*should* be able to get the techs to come do their job.
Well, when faced with a similar situation, I try to become part of the
problem instead of the solution. That usually inspires a better
response. Hopefully, it won't come to that. I'm at a loss what to do
in this case. The result might be a concellation of the contract due
to AT&T's "inability" to provide reliable service. Attempting to
reinstate service will probably be met with "we're out of phone lines"
or "you are too far away".
Got cable TV in the area with cable internet? It's 2.5 times as
expensive, but 10 times as fast.
>Is there any magic phrase to use to get them to check for line
>interference that might show up even when the DSL is "working" at the
>time they come out? (For instance, if they come out at 4 pm on Friday,
>before the problem starts showing up.) Is there any magic phrase to use
>to get them to simply move her DSL service to another copper line?
Not a phrase, but historical data is always helpful. I've used this
method to good effect on T1's and ISDN lines, but haven't tried it
with DSL as the support droids are quite different.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
Jeff Liebermann
Z.) wrote:
>JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Is there any magic phrase to use to get them to check for line
>> interference that might show up even when the DSL is "working" at the
>> time they come out?
>
>Try the phrase "PUC" if all else fails, unless someone knows a more
>appropriate agency to name.
It's a "dry pair". No POTS service. POTS is regulated by the PUC.
DSL is regulated by the FCC, which is much the same as no regulation
or enforcement. MaBell could care less about DSL complaints, but POTS
complains to the PUC will get their attention.
JC Dill
> Even if all 20 homes all had DSL, there would not be sufficient
> interference in the cable bundle to cause a problem. On a 100 pair
> bundle, it takes about 50 lines to begin seeing crosstalk. Note that
> I can indirectly see the effects of crosstalk quite clearly on my
> tester.
There are certainly more than 20 homes on the line between her and the
CO or RT. There are ~20 just on her dead-end street.
> It would be interesting to know if any of the other nearby residents
> have DSL and with what level of performance.
Apparently her immediate next-door neighbors are also having problems -
when she reported this problem last week (with the appointment on Monday
night) she was told that another person on her street was also having
trouble and then told/learned it was her neighbor. However, I don't
know if they are having the same problems or not.
>> Additionally, the line worked *perfectly* for the first 2 weeks until
>> they stole her copper to install someone else's phone line. So this
>> brings me back to the suggestion that the problem is with the copper
>> line they put her DSL on - rather than giving her back her initial
>> copper line they just brought her up on some skanky unused copper in the
>> bundle (left unused because they get complaints if they try to use it
>> for voice calls?) and now she has problems.
>
> Yep. That's the most likely culprit. The problem is what to do about
> it. If the cable bundle is only 25 pairs, getting another line will
> be a problem. Worse, the only way you can get a "guaranteed"
> replacement pair is to complain about the POTS service. POTS is
> regulated by the PUC, while DSL is regulated by the FCC.
I know. :-(
> One problem that I've seen on shared POTS/DSL lines is a high
> resistance wire connection. The symptoms are that DSL works, but POTS
> does not. DSL can handle considerably more series resistance than
> POTS. Every time I've seen this, it's a bad crimp or splace somewhere
> along the line to the CO. It can be traced with a TDR, but that
> requires the test board to run a test, which they only seem to
> (currently) do for POTS lines.
Should she ask the tech to do a TDR trace to check for high resistance
wire connection problems? Or is there some better "magic phrase"?
I'll have her print this and ask the tech do tests to check these values.
>>> While handy, the SYNC light on the modem will not go out until the
>>> connection is totally lost.
>> That is *very* good to know.
>
> Try it. Just unplug the DSL line and start the timer. I can supply
> some typical examples if you want (which means I have to drag home a
> box of DSL modems which is not my idea of fun).
At this point there's nothing pointing at the modem, so let's not do
this for now.
> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
> different results. (Albert Einstein)
Yep.
>> I'm hoping to avoid asking you to come all this way to test, when we
>> *should* be able to get the techs to come do their job.
>
> Well, when faced with a similar situation, I try to become part of the
> problem instead of the solution. That usually inspires a better
> response. Hopefully, it won't come to that. I'm at a loss what to do
> in this case. The result might be a concellation of the contract due
> to AT&T's "inability" to provide reliable service. Attempting to
> reinstate service will probably be met with "we're out of phone lines"
> or "you are too far away".
>
> Got cable TV in the area with cable internet? It's 2.5 times as
> expensive, but 10 times as fast.
There is no cable service in her area. Her broadband choices are DSL,
T1, satellite, or EVDO. My Verizon EVDO modem was getting pretty good
signal, but it's more than 2x the cost compared to what she's paying for
DSL, and much slower. If she were to go this route her internet service
can't be shared with a visitor unless she gets a special router that
will take an EVDO card.
One possible additional solution involves setting up a wifi link to her
office about 1 mile away (clear line-of-sight). Do you have any
resources that we could share with the office IT person about how it's
no more unsafe to setup a yagi or cantenna than to have wireless
routers in the office (which they have now, and she uses now, when she's
in the office)? I'm looking for something that "looks" professional -
not some hacker DIY page. I need something the IT staff can show to a
clueless suit to reassure them that this is a perfectly ordinary and
safe thing to do. E.g. a page about how to connect distant buildings on
a single campus by using directed signal wifi when they are too far
apart for ethernet (more than 500 meters?), without having to trench for
fiber or pay for a T1 between the buildings or to each individual building.
>> Is there any magic phrase to use to get them to check for line
>> interference that might show up even when the DSL is "working" at the
>> time they come out? (For instance, if they come out at 4 pm on Friday,
>> before the problem starts showing up.) Is there any magic phrase to use
>> to get them to simply move her DSL service to another copper line?
>
> Not a phrase, but historical data is always helpful. I've used this
> method to good effect on T1's and ISDN lines, but haven't tried it
> with DSL as the support droids are quite different.
Last night I didn't have too much trouble convincing the Indian-accent
support person to connect me to the Live Maintenance support desk which
(seems) to be local. (The Live Maintenance direct number is:
1-888-312-2450.) However, they supposedly close the office at 8 pm and
I was unable to get them to do any useful "live testing" last night
because I didn't know the magic phrases to tell them what tests I was
hoping they would do. If we don't have good luck on Friday, I'm going
to try this route again, calling at 7 pm on a weeknight the moment the
problem surfaces, and see if I can get them to act on it while it's
happening and before they try to wrap up at 8 pm.
jc
NoOp
For $24 a month it definately should be - unless that's the total bill
including DSL. My basic residential flat rate service is $10.94 & by the
time you add up all the junk charges (including a $6.00 WirePro that
I've kept) the 'Total Plans and Services' for the line is $23.02. Now on
top of that I do pay $20 a month for DSL + LD, and that brings the total
up of course.
I realize that with nothing connected other than the modem etc you
didn't install a micro filter; generally when folks have problems I
recommend connecting without the filter to test, but in this case you
just might want to give it a try install the filter) to see if there is
any change during the magical hours. That may filter out the crosstalk
if any. Certainly can't hurt to give it a try.
Also, you'll need to identify the type of dsl modem so that someone can
give you advise on how to get the line stats for noise etc. The older
Speedstream 5100's have an excellent menu for tech stats that you can
print out to a pdf file & save. You can then reference the data when
talking to the tech.
As for gaining attention to SBC not showing up to look at the line; as a
very last resort try the Mercury News Action Line (or similar for Moss
Landing) section... you'd be surprised what a litte newspaper exposure
can bring. I say *last* resort as generally I've found SBC to be quite
responsive to my request for tech calls. Be polite, ask for a supervisor
if necessary, but *always* be polite - goes a long way, I know I've
tried the other way & didn't work well.
Another suggestion: go out to the box where the wires come into the
house. Tighten & clean the terminator connector screws (careful not to
knick/break any of the wires) & see if that helps. Put a little contact
cleaner in the RJ jack and plug/unplug a few times to clean the jack
contacts. Don't use an ear swab (Q-Tip), as you're just likely to leave
swab debris in the contacts. Just a little contact cleaner & plug in -
plug out (wax on/ wax off :-).
One last thing; check to see if somehow she's enabled a setting in the
router that blocks internet access between 7 PM and Midnight. You'd be
surprised what someone can do in a modem/router by accident if they
aren't familiar with the device and the menus.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>One last thing; check to see if somehow she's enabled a setting in the
>router that blocks internet access between 7 PM and Midnight. You'd be
>surprised what someone can do in a modem/router by accident if they
>aren't familiar with the device and the menus.
No such setting in the 2701HG router:
<http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/index.html>
<http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/mdc/mdc.html>
However, you got me thinking. (I'm doing a crash recovery and restore
failure. No brain today). The 2701HG has several log file pages that
will show connection failures and line problems. For example:
<http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/mdc/xslt36ed.html>
<http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/mdc/xslt7c0a.html>
There's also a DSL diagnostics page:
<http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/mdc/xsltb6de.html>
JC Dill
> On 04/07/2009 12:16 PM, JC Dill wrote:
>> Steve Pope wrote:
>>> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve Pope wrote:
>>>>> I think the one comment about a bridged line is a real possibility.
>>>>> Maybe you could listen to the line for obvious crosstalk --
>>>>> conversations occuring in the evening hours. (But even if
>>>>> observed, it may not be enough to get ATT to move...)
>>>> There is no POTS on this line. How can we "listen" to the line?
>>> I am thinking that if you connected a phone to the line,
>>> you may be able to hear crosstalk, and it may be there
>>> only in the evening.
>> Hmmm. I'll see if she has a POTS phone stashed away, or if she can
>> borrow one to test for this.
>>
>> jc
>
> For $24 a month it definately should be - unless that's the total bill
> including DSL.
Yes, that's her total bill for DSL.
> My basic residential flat rate service is $10.94 & by the
> time you add up all the junk charges (including a $6.00 WirePro that
> I've kept) the 'Total Plans and Services' for the line is $23.02. Now on
> top of that I do pay $20 a month for DSL + LD, and that brings the total
> up of course.
Which is why she doesn't have a POTS line.
> I realize that with nothing connected other than the modem etc you
> didn't install a micro filter; generally when folks have problems I
> recommend connecting without the filter to test, but in this case you
> just might want to give it a try install the filter) to see if there is
> any change during the magical hours. That may filter out the crosstalk
> if any. Certainly can't hurt to give it a try.
I don't think she *has* a filter. If not, I'll make sure she gets one
when the tech comes on Friday.
> Also, you'll need to identify the type of dsl modem so that someone can
> give you advise on how to get the line stats for noise etc. The older
> Speedstream 5100's have an excellent menu for tech stats that you can
> print out to a pdf file & save. You can then reference the data when
> talking to the tech.
It is identified elsewhere in this thread, and Jeff gave us info on how
to get some data reports out of it. I don't have any reason to think
the modem itself is at fault.
> As for gaining attention to SBC not showing up to look at the line; as a
> very last resort try the Mercury News Action Line (or similar for Moss
> Landing) section... you'd be surprised what a litte newspaper exposure
> can bring. I say *last* resort as generally I've found SBC to be quite
> responsive to my request for tech calls. Be polite, ask for a supervisor
> if necessary, but *always* be polite - goes a long way, I know I've
> tried the other way & didn't work well.
They are nice enough on the phone - the problem is that the tech either
no-shows or doesn't come during the time when the problem is occurring.
I wasted over 30 minutes "holding" for a supervisor who never picked
up the line.
> Another suggestion: go out to the box where the wires come into the
> house. Tighten & clean the terminator connector screws (careful not to
> knick/break any of the wires) & see if that helps. Put a little contact
> cleaner in the RJ jack and plug/unplug a few times to clean the jack
> contacts. Don't use an ear swab (Q-Tip), as you're just likely to leave
> swab debris in the contacts. Just a little contact cleaner & plug in -
> plug out (wax on/ wax off :-).
I was there the day they "fixed" her line after they stole her copper
for the neighbor's phone line. The connections in the box were done
correctly, the wires were cleanly cut and connected in the demark box.
If there's a bad connection anywhere in the circuit, I suspect the
problem may be further back up the line - at the pole or down the street.
> One last thing; check to see if somehow she's enabled a setting in the
> router that blocks internet access between 7 PM and Midnight. You'd be
> surprised what someone can do in a modem/router by accident if they
> aren't familiar with the device and the menus.
There is no such block in the router. This problem is sporadic - it
doesn't happen every night but more than 50% of the time. It can come
and go - not work for 2 hours and then she can get email, then 10
minutes later it's not working again.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>There are certainly more than 20 homes on the line between her and the
>CO or RT. There are ~20 just on her dead-end street.
If this is a new development, the copper might be buried somewhere.
However, MaBell doesn't do much copper these days. They usually
install an RT somewhere nearby with a fiber backhaul to the CO. I've
seen a few RT's with flaky cards. I don't know the exact designation
for the card, but I'll dig for it. The symptoms are that all the
users plugged into a specific 12 port card get flaky performance,
while users plugged into ports on other cards work fine. Have her ask
around the neighborhood and see if anyone else is having similar
issues or are getting really slow performance.
>Apparently her immediate next-door neighbors are also having problems -
Bingo.
>However, I don't
>know if they are having the same problems or not.
It's worth asking. The problems might be similar but not do not need
to be identical. If the log files show chronic login/authentication
failures, it might be a symtom of severe packet loss. I usually dive
into the ATM layer statistics, but that requires the I install an
ancient Efficient 5260 DSL modem which has wonderful diagnostics and
troubleshooting statistics.
>Should she ask the tech to do a TDR trace to check for high resistance
>wire connection problems? Or is there some better "magic phrase"?
If there's an RT (remote terminal) between her and the CO, they can't
do a TDR test from the CO. It has to be done from her end of the
wiring. I think it best not to mention a TDR and simply ask them to
do the same line imparement tests that they run for POTS lines. Line
balance, capacitance between the lines and ground, residual noise
level, hum and noise, bridged tap search, etc. I think they can
figure that one out.
>I'll have her print this and ask the tech do tests to check these values.
The last "tech" that arrived at a customer site to fix a problem that
was obviously water in the wiring, arrived with a shiny new Sunrise
Telecom DSL tester. I could not convince him to fire it up, plug it
in, or do anything beyond replacing a working DSL modem. I don't
think he knew how to use the tester. I plugged in mine, showed him
the low line levels, high losses, and goofy frequency response. I
don't think he understood much of what I was showing him. Worse, he
didn't seem interested in learning anything new.
Did *ANY* of the techs that showed up during the day to fix the
problem ever run a line test? The Sunrise testers have ticket
printers which will show the necessary line levels, SNR, etc. I have
a small collection where I've convinced the techs to run an extra
print. (Handy checking to see what has changed).
>At this point there's nothing pointing at the modem, so let's not do
>this for now.
"Assumption, the mother of all screwups." (Me, many times).
If I show up, I want to try a different DSL modem. Favorite of the
week is the old Efficient/Siemens 5100B (with 5 lights, not 4)
>One possible additional solution involves setting up a wifi link to her
>office about 1 mile away (clear line-of-sight). Do you have any
>resources that we could share with the office IT person
Sure. If he does IT, he should know something about wireless
security. The bottom line is simple. WPA-PSK-TKIP is the minimum
with a long and messy pass phrase. So far, it can't be easily hacked.
However, it can be leaked, so if the office has a RADIUS server, I
suggest WPA2-AES-RADIUS.
>about how it's
>no more unsafe to setup a yagi or cantenna than to have wireless
>routers in the office (which they have now, and she uses now, when she's
>in the office)?
Forget about coffee cans and yagi's. Each have their problems. I
prefer a dish at both ends. 5000 ft is easy, but will require some
gain. I can work out the numbers later.
>I'm looking for something that "looks" professional -
>not some hacker DIY page.
Sheesh. That eliminates my writings. The big catch is that it's not
going to be cheap. Decent hardware is a pair of Cisco (forgot the
number) wireless bridge radios for about $200/ea used. Two 24dBi dish
antennas for $75/ea. Coax, connectors, PoE, and trivia will add about
$50/end. Professional installs might include a rooftop mount, minor
construction, etc. Wireless can be done cheaply using junk, but if
you want it done right, it's going to cost.
>I need something the IT staff can show to a
>clueless suit to reassure them that this is a perfectly ordinary and
>safe thing to do. E.g. a page about how to connect distant buildings on
>a single campus by using directed signal wifi when they are too far
>apart for ethernet (more than 500 meters?), without having to trench for
>fiber or pay for a T1 between the buildings or to each individual building.
I have some case studies for such things. There are usually case
studies on various wireless vendors sites. I'll dig, but not for a
few days. I've got a customer with a crashed hard disk and failed
recovery to deal with first.
JC Dill
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:31:53 -0700, JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There are certainly more than 20 homes on the line between her and the
>> CO or RT. There are ~20 just on her dead-end street.
>
> If this is a new development, the copper might be buried somewhere.
> However, MaBell doesn't do much copper these days. They usually
> install an RT somewhere nearby with a fiber backhaul to the CO. I've
> seen a few RT's with flaky cards. I don't know the exact designation
> for the card, but I'll dig for it. The symptoms are that all the
> users plugged into a specific 12 port card get flaky performance,
> while users plugged into ports on other cards work fine. Have her ask
> around the neighborhood and see if anyone else is having similar
> issues or are getting really slow performance.
It's not a new development. Think "end of the road" for any of dozens
of private roads in Boulder Creek and you will be very close to her
situation.
>> Should she ask the tech to do a TDR trace to check for high resistance
>> wire connection problems? Or is there some better "magic phrase"?
>
> If there's an RT (remote terminal) between her and the CO, they can't
> do a TDR test from the CO. It has to be done from her end of the
> wiring. I think it best not to mention a TDR and simply ask them to
> do the same line imparement tests that they run for POTS lines. Line
> balance, capacitance between the lines and ground, residual noise
> level, hum and noise, bridged tap search, etc. I think they can
> figure that one out.
Cool. It really helps to know the magic phrases to know what tests to
ask for, and make sure are done.
>> I'll have her print this and ask the tech do tests to check these values.
>
> The last "tech" that arrived at a customer site to fix a problem that
> was obviously water in the wiring, arrived with a shiny new Sunrise
> Telecom DSL tester. I could not convince him to fire it up, plug it
> in, or do anything beyond replacing a working DSL modem. I don't
> think he knew how to use the tester. I plugged in mine, showed him
> the low line levels, high losses, and goofy frequency response. I
> don't think he understood much of what I was showing him. Worse, he
> didn't seem interested in learning anything new.
>
> Did *ANY* of the techs that showed up during the day to fix the
> problem ever run a line test?
I have no idea. I was there the day they "fixed" the DSL install in
June (after having swiped her DSL dry copper to install the neighbor's
new phone line), and then I just learned about her 10 month quest to get
it working properly this past weekend. I don't have any details about
what was done in between. I just know that they haven't found anything
wrong and haven't done or changed anything, and that the problem hasn't
abated.
>> One possible additional solution involves setting up a wifi link to her
>> office about 1 mile away (clear line-of-sight). Do you have any
>> resources that we could share with the office IT person
>
> Sure. If he does IT, he should know something about wireless
> security. The bottom line is simple. WPA-PSK-TKIP is the minimum
> with a long and messy pass phrase. So far, it can't be easily hacked.
> However, it can be leaked, so if the office has a RADIUS server, I
> suggest WPA2-AES-RADIUS.
The office has wifi security in place already. We just need to show
that using a directional antenna to extend the wifi to the home of an
employee is not any riskier than what they are doing at the office now -
that the same security will still be effective on the office's network
even when she connects at her home - just as secure as it is now when
she connects to the office via a VPN over wifi to her home DSL.
>> about how it's
>> no more unsafe to setup a yagi or cantenna than to have wireless
>> routers in the office (which they have now, and she uses now, when she's
>> in the office)?
>
> Forget about coffee cans and yagi's. Each have their problems. I
> prefer a dish at both ends. 5000 ft is easy, but will require some
> gain. I can work out the numbers later.
>
>> I'm looking for something that "looks" professional -
>> not some hacker DIY page.
>
> Sheesh. That eliminates my writings. The big catch is that it's not
> going to be cheap. Decent hardware is a pair of Cisco (forgot the
> number) wireless bridge radios for about $200/ea used. Two 24dBi dish
> antennas for $75/ea. Coax, connectors, PoE, and trivia will add about
> $50/end. Professional installs might include a rooftop mount, minor
> construction, etc. Wireless can be done cheaply using junk, but if
> you want it done right, it's going to cost.
If we go this route, we need to do it cheap and unobtrusively. She
could spend perhaps ~$250-$300 for this - e.g. about 1 year's DSL cost.
We can't she place dishes at either location. We need a low cost but
professional looking (not pringles cans) small directional antenna (e.g.
yagi) solution that she can place inside the window at her desk
(obscured behind a plant when viewed from inside the office, so that she
doesn't have to deal with non-IT people getting worked up over this),
and then also behind a plant inside the window at her home. She has
*excellent* line-of-sight between these 2 windows - a perfect situation
for directional wifi.
>> I need something the IT staff can show to a
>> clueless suit to reassure them that this is a perfectly ordinary and
>> safe thing to do. E.g. a page about how to connect distant buildings on
>> a single campus by using directed signal wifi when they are too far
>> apart for ethernet (more than 500 meters?), without having to trench for
>> fiber or pay for a T1 between the buildings or to each individual building.
>
> I have some case studies for such things. There are usually case
> studies on various wireless vendors sites. I'll dig, but not for a
> few days. I've got a customer with a crashed hard disk and failed
> recovery to deal with first.
No hurry. AT&T might actually fix the problem on Friday. This is just
a backup idea.
jc
David Kaye
> There's no way to find the "actual rate" on Sonic's website. GRRR. All
> they show is the teaser "introductory" rates.
I suppose you could ask. I'm not even a customer, but I've found
their customer support staff to be very helpful. Or maybe Dane might
answer himself next time he's around these parts...
David Kaye
> Her home has relatively new wiring. The problem occurs like clockwork -
> in the evening, which tends to point to something other than the modem.
> Techs have been out numerous times during the day and "everything is
> working" and they try to close the ticket.
I'm still tending to believe that it's a DSL party line kind of
thing. I have never tried to put two modems on the same circuit to
see how they'd behave, but I suspect that, given the consistent times
this problem happens that there is another human involved somewhere.
Humans are creatures of habit. It might be that if there is another
modem on the line, that other modem may be completely offline except
during the late evening. Or maybe it's always online but with no
traffic at other times. I could be totally wrong here, but I just
really have to think there's human activity that is causing this
slowdown.
Steve Fenwick
<7d6dff01-beba-4346...@o11g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hmm...AT&T tech saw a dry pair; knowing it was only used for DSL in one
place and POTS in another, connected it to both? But there are no
filters at the POTS end, so that is messing up the DSL?
The specifics are getting lost in the thread, but this is why I pay a
different ISP for service and don't use AT&T directly.
Steve
--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
JC Dill
I did email to ask. But I think it's shoddy business to advertise a
rate, say it's for 6 months only, say to click on "details" to get more
details, and then find that there ARE NO MORE DETAILS ABOUT THE RATE ON
THE DETAILS PAGE. I expected Sonic to be more up-front about their
rates, and it was very disappointing to find out that they weren't.
jc
NoOp
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:54:45 -0700, NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>One last thing; check to see if somehow she's enabled a setting in the
>>router that blocks internet access between 7 PM and Midnight. You'd be
>>surprised what someone can do in a modem/router by accident if they
>>aren't familiar with the device and the menus.
>
> No such setting in the 2701HG router:
> <http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/index.html>
> <http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/mdc/mdc.html>
Yeah. I was thinking there may have been settings like the Linksys/Cisco:
http://www.supportshots.com/linksys_wrt54g/Filters.php
David Kaye
> Hmm...AT&T tech saw a dry pair; knowing it was only used for DSL in one
> place and POTS in another, connected it to both? But there are no
> filters at the POTS end, so that is messing up the DSL?
No, I'm suggesting that the pair might have been used to connect to
two different "dry" DSL accounts, or perhaps that a neighbor is
pirating DSL on the line.
Again, I have never connected two modems to a DSL line to see if both
will actually talk to the head-end or not, but the scenario seems to
fit.
Has anybody connected two modems to a single DSL line? Can you get
both to work? Does one take over the circuit? Anyone?
Steve Fenwick
<e3634507-5d12-48a5...@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 8:28 am, Steve Fenwick <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Hmm...AT&T tech saw a dry pair; knowing it was only used for DSL in one
> > place and POTS in another, connected it to both? But there are no
> > filters at the POTS end, so that is messing up the DSL?
>
> No, I'm suggesting that the pair might have been used to connect to
> two different "dry" DSL accounts, or perhaps that a neighbor is
> pirating DSL on the line.
I understand. I was suggesting a different possibility.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Yep, it's there. Incidentally, there are online emulators for Linksys
and Dlink at:
<http://ui.linksys.com>
<http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1457>
Jeff Liebermann
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Has anybody connected two modems to a single DSL line? Can you get
>both to work? Does one take over the circuit? Anyone?
Yep, but not all modems will do it. I have a pair of SDSL modems that
did 768/768. I think it was a pair of Efficient Speedstream 5851
modems, also known as a Flowpoint 2200, but I'm not sure. It may have
been some SDSL modem from Copper Mountain or 3com. Note that
connecting two modems to talk to each other will work over a metallic
pair, or dry pair. It will NOT work with a DSL line with a DSLAM
sitting at the CO end. It's one modem per DSLAM port. (However, you
have have several ATM circuits on a single DSL modem).
Home brew DSL:
<http://www.odessaoffice.com/sdsl.html>
Efficient 5851:
<http://kb.efficient.com/display/1n/index.asp?c=&cpc=&cid=&cat=&catURL=&r=0.1949579>
Flowpoint 2200:
<http://kb.efficient.com/display/1n/kb/cat.asp?cid=20208&kb=3327&L1cid=20208&level=2&mod=&r=0.2280743#cat_20208>
Hmmm... I just found a pair of these on the shelf. One looks like it
was under water for a time. If I get ambitious, I might try a quick
bench test.
do...@04.usenet.us.com
> I don't think she *has* a filter. If not, I'll make sure she gets one
> when the tech comes on Friday.
I think the filter works the other way: straight to the modem, filtered to
the voice side.
> I was there the day they "fixed" her line after they stole her copper
> for the neighbor's phone line. The connections in the box were done
> correctly, the wires were cleanly cut and connected in the demark box.
> If there's a bad connection anywhere in the circuit, I suspect the
> problem may be further back up the line - at the pole or down the street.
Out in the rural area of Napa county, our phone stopped ringing. We could
call out, but no one could call us. Our pair had been "stolen" and given
to a new resident. Calling my own cell phone (which didn't work at home)
to get the CID didn't occur to me in the least.
We only caught on when we picked up the phone and heard our neighbor
talking.
The line pair that they gave us to repair that mistake was no good,
probably rejected by the installer who stole our pair. If it even looked
like rain, static would appear, and if it actually did rain, forget it.
One of the repair guys solved that problem. Our copper pair continued
farther down the street, and actually was lying on the ground where a
construction shed had been removed. He cleaned out some of the rats nest
and removed unneeded wires in the local closet.
--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
NoOp
> On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:33:52 -0700, NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On 04/08/2009 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:54:45 -0700, NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>One last thing; check to see if somehow she's enabled a setting in the
>>>>router that blocks internet access between 7 PM and Midnight. You'd be
>>>>surprised what someone can do in a modem/router by accident if they
>>>>aren't familiar with the device and the menus.
>>>
>>> No such setting in the 2701HG router:
>>> <http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/index.html>
>>> <http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/mdc/mdc.html>
>>
>>Yeah. I was thinking there may have been settings like the Linksys/Cisco:
>>http://www.supportshots.com/linksys_wrt54g/Filters.php
>
> Yep, it's there. Incidentally, there are online emulators for Linksys
> and Dlink at:
> <http://ui.linksys.com>
> <http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1457>
>
Thanks! Might have figured that they'd leave out my routers: BEFVP41's :-)
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Ummm... they're on the web pile at:
<http://ui.linksys.com/files/BEFVP41/>
I hope your BEFVP41 works. I had a hell of time with a system of 4ea
v1 models where the 3 IPSec tunnels just would not remain connected. I
finally replaced them with Netscreen VPN routers, and lived happily
ever after. Other than a flakey VPN, the BEFVP41 v1 worked just fine.
Incidentally, there are some other sites that have emulators for their
products. It's really handy, but far too much work for the vendors to
keep up to date. Many of the current firmware versions are not show
on both the DLink and Linksys web piles.
NoOp
> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:32:09 -0700, NoOp
>>>>Yeah. I was thinking there may have been settings like the Linksys/Cisco:
>>>>http://www.supportshots.com/linksys_wrt54g/Filters.php
>>>
>>> Yep, it's there. Incidentally, there are online emulators for Linksys
>>> and Dlink at:
>>> <http://ui.linksys.com>
>>> <http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1457>
>
>>Thanks! Might have figured that they'd leave out my routers: BEFVP41's :-)
>
> Ummm... they're on the web pile at:
> <http://ui.linksys.com/files/BEFVP41/>
Thanks, I missed that. Their firmware version is way out of date though
on the site (V2 is at 1.01.04) - but very cool.
>
> I hope your BEFVP41 works. I had a hell of time with a system of 4ea
> v1 models where the 3 IPSec tunnels just would not remain connected. I
> finally replaced them with Netscreen VPN routers, and lived happily
> ever after. Other than a flakey VPN, the BEFVP41 v1 worked just fine.
V2 models work great (Firmware Version 1.01.04). I also had issues with
V1's; Fry's didn't distinquish on the packaging so I'd have to open each
one to check to see if they were version 2's. With V2's I run multiple
customer networks VPN's (retail stores mostly), and can easily check the
sites from my home office via VPN's.
>
> Incidentally, there are some other sites that have emulators for their
> products. It's really handy, but far too much work for the vendors to
> keep up to date. Many of the current firmware versions are not show
> on both the DLink and Linksys web piles.
I noticed. Any idea if Netgear has similar?
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>> Incidentally, there are some other sites that have emulators for their
>> products. It's really handy, but far too much work for the vendors to
>> keep up to date. Many of the current firmware versions are not show
>> on both the DLink and Linksys web piles.
>
>I noticed. Any idea if Netgear has similar?
See:
<http://geeksquadwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Router_Emulators>
2wire and other modems and routers:
<http://www.supportshots.com>
DD-WRT (old)
<http://www.0711-stuttgart.de/192.168.1.23>
<http://www.informatione.gmxhome.de/DDWRT/Standard/V23final/index.html>
<http://www.informatione.gmxhome.de/DDWRT/Standard/V24BetaVPN/index.html>
Belkin:
These are not emulators, but some useful hidden menus:
<http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/belkin_commands.htm>
AT&T Motorola 2210 modem:
<http://att-training.net/simulator/index.htm>
There are also various Cisco IOS emulators scattered about. Most are
not free and are part of a CCNA practice exam. A few are free:
<http://www.ipflow.utc.fr/index.php/Cisco_7200_Simulator>
There are probably more but that's what I found in my bookmarks mess.
..
> office about 1 mile away (clear line-of-sight). Do you have any
> resources that we could share with the office IT person about how it's
> no more unsafe to setup a yagi or cantenna than to have wireless
> routers in the office (which they have now, and she uses now, when she's
> in the office)? I'm looking for something that "looks" professional -
> not some hacker DIY page.
Last summer, I very easily used wifi from 9 miles away, then posted
the
details here, with a map:
With that info, you might be able to do it yourself. The antenna is
flat and
unmenacing. I'd be willing to go to Moss Landing and do the install at
both
ends if the pre-visit info that I get from you seems auspicious. If
you'd like
to explore the idea, please call me at 510-620-4871.
**********
1366294709
Alex
> A friend of mine lives in the boonies near Moss Landing. She has an
> ATT/SBCGlobal/YahooDSLline. (The bill comes from and is paid to
> AT&T.) She's near the end of the distance from the CO for aDSLline.
> It works great, until it doesn't.
>
> Each night (more than 50% of the time) around 7 pm, herDSLgoes down.
> It stays down until past midnight.
>
> TheDSLmodem has "all green lights" as if everything is working fine,
> but it's not. The modem has an IP address, but it doesn't route
> anything. It says it has 800 kbps down, 300 kbps up, but she has no
> internet connectivity. She's connected wireless, but if she plugs in
> with ethernet, the problem still persists.
>
> She doesn't have a POTS line - this is a dry loop. When this line was
> installed it worked fine for 2 weeks. Then a neighbor had a new line
> put in, and the tech saw her "dry loop" line as available (because it
> has no dial tone) and took it for the neighbor's new line. It took a
> week before they finally got herDSLworking again, and this problem has
> shown up ever since.
>
> Can anyone shed any light on what might be happening to cause herDSL
> line to "go down" every night from 7-12 (or so), around 70% of the time?
>
> A tech was supposed to come today between "4 and 8" and simply decided
> to no-show. When she called she was told she had been put on a list for
> "first thing tomorrow morning" which is of course useless - A) the
> problem doesn't occur in the morning, and B) she has to work tomorrow
> and won't be here. The appointment is now rescheduled for Friday
> "between 4 and 8".
>
> Does anyone know the "magic words" she needs to use to get them to send
> at tech out in the evening when the problem is actually happening, to
> help solve this? They have come out at least 6 times "during the day"
> when this problem isn't occurring, declared that there is no problem,
> and have closed the ticket. Then a day or two later, the problem
> happens again, she calls in again, etc. At least 50% of the time when
> they make an appointment they no-show (like today). The problem has
> been ongoing since June.
>
> Thanks!
>
> jc
Has this been resolved? I recently experienced the very same problem.
Good connection and speeds all day with no disconnects, but every
evening at 7:00 p.m. internet light went red and dsl sync light
started blinking. Powering down, disconnecting, reconnecting,
rebooting etc. did no good. AT&T Self Support Tool continued to show
"DSL Sync Down", "Internet Down". At 12:00, it would reconnect and
everything would be fine. On the 4th consecutive evening this
happened, I called the support desk shortly after the disconnect and
the rep had a "system engineer" check my line. While I was on hold,
the dsl reconnected. When the rep came back online, she said the
"engineer" had "reset" my port. The problem has not recurred. Whatever
the problem was, it was on AT&T's end and correctable over the wire.
Bill Z.
> Has this been resolved? I recently experienced the very same problem.
> Good connection and speeds all day with no disconnects, but every
> evening at 7:00 p.m. internet light went red and dsl sync light
> started blinking.
I had the same problem (with it eventually going away) at about the
same time. I don't think it was something like dimmer switchers or
some other source of interference in my home, which others raised as
an issue, because the failure would occur while I was using the
computer, not after I had gone to switch on a light or something.
Don't know about whether my neighbors were generating some sort
of interference, though. The fact that the problem appeared suddenly
and remained for a relatively short time frame makes it hard for me
to believe that it was something my neighbors were doing - they
hadn't changed when the problem went away.
The fact that everyone is reporting a problem at the same time of day
is suspicous. What's also suspicious is that during the time this
problem would come and go, my internet service almost predictably
would go down on 3-day weekends for the duration.