Shopping Malls In The Bay Area
Anonymous
Patrick Tufts
<kermit...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Are there shopping malls in the Bay Area and are they all successful?
Yes. No.
--Pat
TechnoShroom
answer.
;)
Patrick Tufts <zi...@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote in message
news:180320001207039647%zi...@cs.brandeis.edu...
Geoff Miller
"Anonymous" <kermit...@my-deja.com> asks:
> Are there shopping malls in the Bay Area and are they
> all successful?
Sure. We even have electricity here, you know.
Geoff
--
"I'm killfiling you. Repeatedly. I *live* to killfile you."
-- John Ackerman
st
malls, as they do anywhere else. However, if you're talking about
sophisticated, classy San Francisco, we absolutely hate malls. In fact, we
hate chain stores in general. Just try to put up a Rite Aid in North Beach,
we dare you. Unfortunately, we do have our obligatory, crappy mall called
"Stonestown", and the good people of this city have seen fit to push it
almost to the border of San Francisco. It has Pottery Barn, Eddie Bauer,
Mrs. Fields Cookies, Victoria's Secret, and all other such stores fit for a
visiting rube. Oh, and we also have a monstrosity called San Francisco
Centre (notice how they switched the "r" and the "e" on the last
word..."gawsh, that's so goddam klassy, ma! Lookit how they spelled it!
Must be real purty inside!").
Anyway, to answer your question, there aren't as many malls here as, for
instance, Los Angeles (choke), but the ones that are here seem to do pretty
well.
Anonymous <kermit...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:HGQA4.563$8R4....@news.uswest.net...
Anonymous
2. If I choose to shop at a shopping mall in the Bay Area in a few years,
can I do so?
st wrote in message ...
Kenneth Crudup
"Anonymous" <pica...@yahoo.com> says:
>1. Why the bad feelings about shopping malls and chain stores?
>2. If I choose to shop at a shopping mall in the Bay Area in a few years,
>can I do so?
This is the SFBA. There's quite a few people here who seem to think that it's
somehow bad to have large malls, as they'd rather buy moldy old merchandise
from some gomer who's going to charge them too much and have inadequate stock,
but in return, they get to have a "relationship" with the vendor, whatever
the hell that means.
I don't get it, either.
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup Sr. SW Engineer, Scott County Consulting, Washington, D.C.
Home1: PO Box 914 Silver Spring, MD 20910-0914
Home2: 38010 Village Cmn. #217 Fremont, CA 94536-7525 (510) 745-8181
Work: 19420 Homestead Road Cupertino, CA 95014-0606 (408) 447-6654
Ted Stalcup
<d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>
> San Francisco is not Dallas or Phoenix or Denver. San Francisco is still
> a place where people get to know each other. It's still a place where
> the
> local shop keeper looks out for the neighborhood, including reporting
> suspicious people and taking an interest in local affairs.
>
> Chain stores do not do this. First of all, the manager stays a few
> months
> to a year and then moves on. Second, the help often stays 2 or 3 months
> and then moves on. Nobody is concerned that you get what you're looking
> for. All they care about is putting in their 8 hours and getting the
> hell
> out of that store. Believe me, that's *all* they care about.
Then simply don't shop there, take your money and spend it somewhere
else. If chain stores bother you then by all means, vote with your
wallet. The continued proliferation of chain stores would however
indicate that yours is a minority opinion.
Silas Warner
>
> 1. Why the bad feelings about shopping malls and chain stores?
<sarcasm>
Because San Francisco is YEW-NEEK, Todally WIDIT and completely
UNLIKE the rest of the moneygrubbing, tasteless USA. (Just go
look at pier 39, for example!)
</sarcasm>
> 2. If I choose to shop at a shopping mall in the Bay Area in a few years,
> can I do so?
Oh, yeah. Just take BART. Plenty of malls along BART and within
bus distance. Emeryville (off MacArthur, technically a town but
really a shopping mall), Bay Fair (with a BART station inside)
Hilltop (a ten-minute express bus ride away from Del Norte)
Serramonte (a ten-minute bus ride away from Daly City or Colma)
and a bunch of others.
Silas Warner
John Higdon
> Many people don't care about service, community, etc. That's why they
> live in places like San Jose, San Mateo, Walnut Creek, Fairfield, etc.
> That's why they're politically inactive, don't participate in local
> government and don't show up for neighborhood association meetings. They
> just don't care. And this is why I don't live in those place, but live in
> SF instead.
Some folks kind of resent such generalizations. I am not only active in my
neighborhood association, a merchants' association, several community
service groups, and know a number of SJMN editors and columnists on a
first-name basis, but I frequently contribute time and/or money to local
ballot issues. Not only do I attend the SJ Council meetings, but also, when
the occasion warrants, Santa Clara and Los Gatos as well since I have
interests in those communities. San Francisco isn't the only city in the
world to have long-time, interested residents.
There are a number of issues of extreme importance to south bay residents.
Just because they don't get the press that every sneeze and hiccup in SF
gets in the media doesn't mean they are not important or that no one cares.
--
John Higdon | P.O. Box 7648 | http://www.anntec.com/
+1 415 428 2697 | Silicon Valley, CA 95150-7648 | FAX: +1 408 264 4407
+1 408 264 4115 | Email Address Valid |
David Kaye
" This is the SFBA. There's quite a few people here who seem to think that it's
" somehow bad to have large malls, as they'd rather buy moldy old merchandise
" from some gomer who's going to charge them too much and have inadequate stock,
" but in return, they get to have a "relationship" with the vendor, whatever
" the hell that means.
A "relationship", for those of you who haven't had relationships, means
that you get to know the shop owner. S/he gets to know you. You develop
a comraderie. The shop owner develops a concern for the neighborhood,
keeping the street clean, contributing to the local Little League or
whatever is important.
When you walk into the store, the shop owner not only knows a little about
you, but can recommend products you might like. But beyond that, the shop
owner also can recommend other places to shop because s/he cares about you
getting what you want, if if it's not from them.
San Francisco is not Dallas or Phoenix or Denver. San Francisco is still
a place where people get to know each other. It's still a place where the
local shop keeper looks out for the neighborhood, including reporting
suspicious people and taking an interest in local affairs.
Chain stores do not do this. First of all, the manager stays a few months
to a year and then moves on. Second, the help often stays 2 or 3 months
and then moves on. Nobody is concerned that you get what you're looking
for. All they care about is putting in their 8 hours and getting the hell
out of that store. Believe me, that's *all* they care about.
--
(C) 2000 "I'm sure my son has a very good reason
David Kaye for paralyzing the country." -- Max Frost's
dk at wco.com mother in "Wild in the Streets"
Charleen Bunjiovianna
>
>San Francisco is not Dallas or Phoenix or Denver.
San Francisco is not even the Bay Area.
Kenny's talking about the San Francisco Bay Area and you're talking San
Francisco, which is why you two are always at odds on the subject of
neighborhoods. The "Area" does not refer to San Francisco; it refers to
the San Francisco Bay. Different animal.
Charleen
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>When you walk into the store, the shop owner not only knows a little about
>you, but can recommend products you might like. But beyond that, the shop
>owner also can recommend other places to shop because s/he cares about you
>getting what you want, if if it's not from them.
By your reasoning, E-stores would be all empty shells by now. Perhaps most
people just don't care about that kind of crap? When I shop, I want variety,
low prices, and the ability to carry it away with me w/o having it back-
ordered. The "man behind the counter" could be Ensign Data, for all I care.
>San Francisco is not Dallas or Phoenix or Denver.
Yeah unfortunately, but the money's good.
Kenneth Crudup
char...@w6yx.stanford.edu (Charleen Bunjiovianna) says:
>Kenny's talking about the San Francisco Bay Area and you're talking San
>Francisco, which is why you two are always at odds on the subject of
>neighborhoods. The "Area" does not refer to San Francisco; it refers to
>the San Francisco Bay. Different animal.
Yeah, I'm guilty of getting it wrong, too.
In all honesty, the SFBA is fairly normal outside of SF and Berkeley.
However, I'm about to give some token amount of money to the people who are
trying to put a Wal-Mart here in Fremont. They had a petition in the Union
City store, and I got a letter a couple of days ago saying that despite the
support of the residents of the area, the stupid NIMBY Fremont City
Council voted it down, anyway. *That*'s the kind of silliness I can't
understand.
Charleen Bunjiovianna
>
>However, I'm about to give some token amount of money to the people who are
>trying to put a Wal-Mart here in Fremont. They had a petition in the Union
>City store, and I got a letter a couple of days ago saying that despite the
>support of the residents of the area, the stupid NIMBY Fremont City
>Council voted it down, anyway. *That*'s the kind of silliness I can't
>understand.
Really? Isn't it a pretty safe bet (though I haven't checked) that the
City Council and hangers-on would include a significant number of local
retailers?
WalMart moves in, small businesses die. I'm not saying that's good or
bad; I'm just saying that it is.
Charleen
David Kaye
" Then simply don't shop there, take your money and spend it somewhere
" else.
I don't shop chain stores if I can help it. However, because chain stores
pay their help so badly, they are able to pay higher rents than the
mom'n'pop stores, displacing them and driving them out of business. It's
happened time and again. (And yes, I *can* cite examples.)
" [....] The continued proliferation of chain stores would however
" indicate that yours is a minority opinion.
It depends on where you look.
BOOKSTORE
Crown Books opened a store across the street from Bookshop Santa Cruz, a
local institution. Guess which one closed? Crown Books.
WRAPS
One of those World Wrapps type of places opened a store on 24th Street in
SF, down the street from a mom'n'pop diner. Guess which one closed. The
World Wrapps kind of place. (I don't remember what the exact name of the
place was, since it didn't last long enough to establish a reputation.)
DOUGHNUTS
It is a well-known fact that doughnut stores owned by Cambodian families
have displaced Winchell's so much that Winchell's for years was on a
free-fall, losing stores left and right. The Cambodian family recipe: (1)
open across the street from a Winchell's, (2) sell fresher doughnuts, (3)
stay open longer hours. The last I heard there were over 2,000 doughnut
stores owned by Cambodian families in California. (One of the local SF
newspapers did an extensive article on this phenomenon a few years ago.)
HARDWARE
Home Depot's Restoration Hardware chain is finding it hard to locate in
San Francisco because the home-grown hardware stores such as Cliff's
Variety, Cole Hardware, Brownie's, etc., are such well-established
institutions.
HAIR SALONS
Super Cuts dared to move in DIRECTLY NEXT DOOR to an established salon on
24th Street in San Francisco. Currently, both are still there, though
Super Cuts appears to not be doing any business at all.
CHAIN RESTAURANTS
While there are some chain sit-down restaurants in SF, there aren't as
many for the population as there are in other cities. There is only 1
Denny's, 1 Lyons that I'm aware of, 2 IHOPs. The Copper Penny went out of
business and became something else.
So, in short, people indeed are rebelling against chain stores and winning
in SF.
--
(C) 2000 Teach someone to fish and you have helped
David Kaye them survive another day. Teach them to surf
dk at wco.com and they won't bother you for weeks.
David Kaye
" By your reasoning, E-stores would be all empty shells by now.
No, I'm not saying that at all, but since you're remarkably dense, it
doesn't surprise me that you don't understand what I wrote.
" Perhaps most
" people just don't care about that kind of crap?
Many people don't care about service, community, etc. That's why they
live in places like San Jose, San Mateo, Walnut Creek, Fairfield, etc.
That's why they're politically inactive, don't participate in local
government and don't show up for neighborhood association meetings. They
just don't care. And this is why I don't live in those place, but live in
SF instead.
" When I shop, I want variety,
" low prices, and the ability to carry it away with me w/o having it back-
" ordered. The "man behind the counter" could be Ensign Data, for all I care.
For some people low prices aren't anything. And if you spent any time
looking around you, there are plenty of people who will pay premiums to
get what they want.
" Yeah unfortunately, but the money's good.
Then fucking MOVE to Dallas, Phoenix, or wherever and take your racism and
sexism with you. I've already mentioned that LA pays programmers better
than SF does, according to 2 recent surveys. And if you're not smart
enough to be a programmer, then get a sugar daddy or something.
--
(C) 2000 Thomas Welch of Welch's grape juice
David Kaye company originally made altar wine
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" Kenny's talking about the San Francisco Bay Area and you're talking San
" Francisco, which is why you two are always at odds on the subject of
" neighborhoods.
True. I'm talking about San Francisco (the Republic of San Francisco as
my header always states). My opinions for the most part reflect my
feelings about San Francisco.
The rest of the Bay Area could (for the most part) go to hell. But it's
not necessary for me to wish it, because for the most part it already has.
I was down in Mountain View not long ago. I wouldn't wish that community
on anyone. What a mess.
--
(C) 2000 As of September 1999, 2,857 American employers
David Kaye offered domestic partners benefits to gay and lesbian
dk at wco.com employees, 71 of the Fortune 500
David Kaye
" Because San Francisco is YEW-NEEK, Todally WIDIT and completely
" UNLIKE the rest of the moneygrubbing, tasteless USA. (Just go
" look at pier 39, for example!)
Well, SF *is* unique, and has been thus throughout its 200 year history.
Thankfully, the tourists tend to stay in one place and don't invade the
cute little neighborhoods I talk about. They wouldn't know a Sherwood
Forest from a Sutro Forest or a Glen Park from a Golden Gate Park. So, SF
benefits from the tax revenue of the tourists.
David Kaye
" WalMart moves in, small businesses die. I'm not saying that's good or
" bad; I'm just saying that it is.
Indeed, WalMart is (in the industry parlance) a "category killer", a
company that dominates its market so well it kills everything else around
it.
Is there anything bad about this? Well, not all WalMart's are successful.
In fact, hundreds of them have closed, leaving their little communities
with no replacement businesses whatsoever. I believe Kansas City is one
of those cities where WalMart came in and devastated the local economy and
then closed down and went away leaving abandoned stores in its wake.
--
(C) 2000 Marx brother Harpo Marx in 1938, legally changed
David Kaye his his first name from Adolph to Arthur.
dk at wco.com
Kenneth Crudup
char...@w6yx.stanford.edu (Charleen Bunjiovianna) says:
>Really? Isn't it a pretty safe bet (though I haven't checked) that the
>City Council and hangers-on would include a significant number of local
>retailers?
Probably, but doesn't the voice of the citizenry count for anything?
>WalMart moves in, small businesses die. I'm not saying that's good or
>bad; I'm just saying that it is.
If the local stores were that good, people would go there, instead.
Economic Darwinism.
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>The rest of the Bay Area could (for the most part) go to hell. But it's
>not necessary for me to wish it, because for the most part it already has.
>I was down in Mountain View not long ago. I wouldn't wish that community
>on anyone. What a mess.
<snort>
I see we live in different Universes, then. So be it.
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>Then fucking MOVE to Dallas, Phoenix, or wherever and take your racism and
>sexism with you.
In time, I will.
>I've already mentioned that LA pays programmers better than SF does,
>according to 2 recent surveys.
You've got your silly surveys, but I have *real offers* to compare
it with. Hell, do you think I'd live in this place if I could make
what I do here in L.A.? Sheeeeeit ....
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> reinforces the view that the rest of
the world has that most San Franciscans are a bunch of tinfoil-hat kooks:
>HARDWARE
>Home Depot's Restoration Hardware chain is finding it hard to locate in
>San Francisco because the home-grown hardware stores such as Cliff's
>Variety, Cole Hardware, Brownie's, etc., are such well-established
>institutions.
<snort>
I bet the *real* reason is those parochial little small-towners of yours
won't give 'em a permit.
Anonymous
What version of things is accurate here?
Kenneth Crudup wrote in message ...
Kenneth Crudup
"Anonymous" <pica...@yahoo.com> says:
>Are there malls and chain stores in the Bay Area?
>What version of things is accurate here?
Both. It's becoming *very* apparent that San Francisco is not only
different from the Bay Area, but the rest of the USA. :-)
(There's malls and chain stores here. I go to 'em when I need stuff).
David Kaye
" I bet the *real* reason is those parochial little small-towners of yours
" won't give 'em a permit.
Actually, Home Depot is going to move into the the southern end of SF,
near Hunter's Point in a few months, with the full blessing of both the
local commuity there, the mayor's office, the board of supervisors, and
the planning commission. Why do you keep showing your ignorance? Is it
some kind of contest?
--
(C) 2000 Harold Vanderbilt created a Vanderbilt
David Kaye Cup in 1928 for bridge playing
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" So what's happening? Are there malls and chain stores in the Bay Area?
" What version of things is accurate here?
Yes, of course there are malls and chain stores in the Bay Area. This is
the #4 ADI market in the country, so chain store and mall operators would
be foolish in not locating in this region.
In fact, some of the oldest shopping malls are here: Southland in
Hayward, Valley Fair in San Jose, and Bay Fair in San Leandro.
In fact, Bay Fair (aka Bayfair) was built in a clearing of old produce
fields in anticipation of a BART station being located nearby, nearly 2
decades before BART was built.
--
(C) 2000 Although he played it improperly, Harpo
David Kaye Marx became so good at the harp that his
dk at wco.com style was emulated by many harpists.
David Kaye
" You've got your silly surveys, but I have *real offers* to compare
" it with. Hell, do you think I'd live in this place if I could make
" what I do here in L.A.? Sheeeeeit ....
The fact that you're not getting "real offers" may be your skills.
Frankly, I was amazed that salaries were going up in LA above the Bay
Area, but when I saw this in magazines for two different development
languages, I began to wonder. Then it dawned on me that people in the
media (radio and TV performers such as news anchors and talkshow hosts)
also do better moneywise in LA than here. So, maybe this LA thing is true
about programmers.
I looked at the VBPJ.com website and came up with nothing. But it was in
the last or next to last issue. And I can't at the moment remember what C
magazine had a similar survey some time ago.
But, if the quality of life is getting you down and you find it so
expensive to live here, consider that if you make less money elsewhere it
will be more than balanced by a lower cost of living and what you consider
to be better living conditions.
If I found somewhere else to my liking better, I'd move there and not crab
about the lower wages. Happiness to me is far more important than money.
--
(C) 2000 Porky Pig's father was Phineas Pig
David Kaye
dk at wco.com
Kenneth Crudup
>> You've got your silly surveys, but I have *real offers* to compare
>> it with.
In article <Ea1C4.356$56....@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>The fact that you're not getting "real offers" may be your skills.
Can't read today, David?
>But, if the quality of life is getting you down
Um, no ....
>and you find it so expensive to live here,
Um, no ....
I prefer L.A. 'cause it's got more of the kinds of things (and kinds of
people) I'd rather be around. It doesn't really matter; NoCal isn't even
my legal residence.
>Happiness to me is far more important than money.
Well, that's a nice ideal, but reality's shown me that there's few things
more money can't fix in one's life.
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>Actually, Home Depot is going to move into the the southern end of SF,
>near Hunter's Point in a few months, with the full blessing of both the
>local commuity there, the mayor's office, the board of supervisors, and
>the planning commission.
You were the one who first said "they had a hard time finding a place in SF",
so, which is it?
A. Sears
>
> Kenneth Crudup wrote the quoted material below:
>
> " won't give 'em a permit.
>
> near Hunter's Point in a few months, with the full blessing of both the
> local commuity there, the mayor's office, the board of supervisors, and
> the planning commission.
However, for several years now there has been *very* active opposition
to a Home Depot store moving into San Francisco by so-called
"neighborhood activists" and the like.
I don't know what changed -- perhaps the attitudes are different when
you're talking about bringing a large business into a neighborhood which
doesn't even have a decent grocery store and is still way behind the
rest of the city in the availability of entry-level jobs and basic
services. But in the neighborhoods which are already established, with
cute little hardware stores of their own, the residents don't want a
Home Depot nearby at all.
Me, I really like Cole Hardware and Cliff's, especially compared to Home
Depot (I go to the one in Colma when I need something that the local
stores don't have, which isn't too often). Parking's a bitch at Cole or
Cliff's, since you have to look for a street spot, but this is balanced
out by (a) not having to drive to effin' Colma and (b) not having to get
stuck in the ever-present parking-lot gridlock at HD. Besides, if it's
a small errand that doesn't involve big bulky stuff I just take the
motorcycle down the hill to the small store and it's NBD.
I like the fact that at the small stores I can get just a couple screws,
nuts, washers, etc., instead of having to buy a blister pack of 100. I
also like the fact that the people who work there actually seem to have
a clue where stuff is.
Add that to the facts that you spend less time waiting in line at
Cliff's or Cole (both stores have the one feeder line going to multiple
cashiers, so you're not always stuck behind someone with a huge cart
full of stuff), and they don't treat their customers like criminals by
having a receipt-checker at the door, and I'll gladly pay a few cents
more for a tube of Goop at the mom 'n pop.
The only advantages of Home Depot are (1) they're open a little later;
(2) their prices are a little lower, which really only makes a big
difference if you're buying supplies for a major home-improvement
project, not if you just need a few light bulbs and drill bits, and (3)
they have some things which the small store doesn't stock, but the small
store has 99% of what I need 99% of the time, and besides the small
store has a few things that Home Depot doesn't stock either.
> Why do you keep showing your ignorance? Is it
> some kind of contest?
Meow! Ffft!
Now, now, David -- your original message which Kenny responded to
concerned Restoration Hardware, which is *not* Home Depot by a long
shot, even though there may be a corporate relationship (of which I was
previously unaware). Restoration Hardware is a twee little place which
sells nostalgic knicknacks and a few useful tools -- albeit at an
unreasonable markup -- all accompanied by a cute little J-Peterman-type
blurb. It's kinda like Pottery Barn (minus the candles) crossed with
Brookstone.
And you do seem to be conveniently forgetting about the longtime
opposition to letting Home Depot into SF, which Kenny guessed correctly
about. So, both of you are partly right, but you both were a little off
on the details.
Speaking of Pottery Barn, I was actually a little surprised to learn
that there are plans to build a huge one at the corner of Market and
Castro -- I figured that the chain-store opposition would be up in arms
about that one.
But then I remembered a post to adfp a couple years ago in which the
froup's token swish described PB as "a great place to cruise, almost as
good as Homo Depot", and it all made sense.
A. Sears
>
> In San Francisco itself, the number of big chains and malls
> approaches zero. Lack of space is the main problem. There is one
> traditional big mall, the Stonestown Galleria, with anchor stores
> like Macy*s and Needless-Markup, along with the usual crowd of
> smaller chains.
Bullshit. SF itself is a very small city, and has at least three other
malls besides Stonestown -- Embarcadero Center, Crocker Galleria, and SF
Shopping Center, making for a malls-to-square-miles ratio at least as
dense as, say, Pinole. All of those malls contain stores you'd find in
any other mall in the US.
Besides that, the town is chock-full of mall-type chain stores in
storefront locations -- there's a frigging Gap on the corner of Haight
and Ashbury, for Chrissakes. The Union Square area's also full of the
same stores you'd find in malls anywhere else in the country, only most
of those stores are larger and carry a larger variety of stock than your
standard Muncie, Indiana Eddie Bauer (for example) location.
John Higdon
> IIRC Valley Fair changed it's name recently.
Yes--it is now the (generic) Westfield Shopping Town. Yeeuuck!
Geoff Galitz
>
> True. I'm talking about San Francisco (the Republic of San Francisco as
> my header always states). My opinions for the most part reflect my
> feelings about San Francisco.
>
> not necessary for me to wish it, because for the most part it already has.
Now, that's not very neighborly of you.
-geoff
wri...@sabu.ebay.sun.com
> Charleen Bunjiovianna wrote the quoted material below:
>
> " Kenny's talking about the San Francisco Bay Area and you're talking San
> " Francisco, which is why you two are always at odds on the subject of
> " neighborhoods.
>
> my header always states). My opinions for the most part reflect my
> feelings about San Francisco.
>
> The rest of the Bay Area could (for the most part) go to hell. But it's
> not necessary for me to wish it, because for the most part it already has.
>
> on anyone. What a mess.
>
>
> (C) 2000 As of September 1999, 2,857 American employers
> David Kaye offered domestic partners benefits to gay and lesbian
> dk at wco.com employees, 71 of the Fortune 500
San Francisco has the worst weather in the Bay Area, the
highest rents, the most expensive houses, no parking, and
mostly left-wing idiots. But it's a great place to visit.
Sabu
John Higdon
wrote:
>> The rest of the Bay Area could (for the most part) go to hell. But it's
>> not necessary for me to wish it, because for the most part it already has.
>
>
> Now, that's not very neighborly of you.
Instructions for visiting San Francisco (if you absolutely must):
1. Enter via transit.
2. Stay in the marked tourist spots at all times.
3. Do not enter quiet neighborhoods.
4. Keep your hands inside the ride at all times.
5. Spend plenty of money.
6. Depart promptly.
David Kaye
" The relationship means, that in the case of the Gamescape on
" Divisadero, the staff knows me and my tastes, and will often hold
" a product for me before I even know it exists.
I'm also a Gamescape customer (I run the Friday night SF Games). While
the people there don't know me very well (I don't buy games that often),
still, they've held out games for me, special ordered, etc. They're also
extremely knowledgeable in their field.
On the other hand, Toys R Us, a chain store that carries games, hires
people who know absolutely nothing about toys, let alone knowing about
games. When (on a lark) I asked if they by chance carried a Tarot deck I
could use for French Tarot, the woman bitterly told me "We don't carry any
WITCHCRAFT stuff here." I felt so much pity for her, I didn't have the
heart to tell her that French Tarot is a trick-taking game and has nothing
whatever to do with fortune telling. Meanwhile, at Gamescape, while they
didn't have a usable deck on hand, they offered to special order for me.
" I know them, they know me. It's called human contact and
" friendship.
Exactly, but alas, some people have grown up not having friends and unable
to form human bonds. This gets worse and worse as nameless, faceless
suburbs and chain stores pockmark the earth, creating more Kip Kinkels who
will scream out their pain by gunning down parents and classmates.
This isn't far-fetched at all. I believe there is a *direct* relationship
between lack of community and the kids who shoot up schools.
--
(C) 2000 "I conduct faster here so you can see my beat." --Eugene
David Kaye Ormandy conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra
dk at wco.com
Mike Parrish
wri...@sabu.EBay.Sun.COM wrote in message
<8bbhvc$9aq$1...@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM>...
>In article 40...@sea-read.news.verio.net, David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com>
writes:
>> Charleen Bunjiovianna wrote the quoted material below:
>>
>> " Kenny's talking about the San Francisco Bay Area and you're talking San
>> " Francisco, which is why you two are always at odds on the subject of
>> " neighborhoods.
>>
>> True. I'm talking about San Francisco (the Republic of San Francisco as
>> my header always states). My opinions for the most part reflect my
>> feelings about San Francisco.
>>
>> not necessary for me to wish it, because for the most part it already
has.
>>
>> on anyone. What a mess.
>>
>>
>> --
>> (C) 2000 As of September 1999, 2,857 American
employers
>> David Kaye offered domestic partners benefits to gay and
lesbian
>> dk at wco.com employees, 71 of the Fortune
500
>
>San Francisco has the worst weather in the Bay Area, the
>highest rents, the most expensive houses, no parking, and
>mostly left-wing idiots. But it's a great place to visit.
No it's not. It's a tedious drive followed by a nightmare of traffic and
parking. They should move the Exploritorium and Steinhart Aquarium to the
Santa Cruz mountains and then dump the rest into the bay ;)
Mike
Silas Warner
>
> wri...@sabu.EBay.Sun.COM wrote in message
> <8bbhvc$9aq$1...@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM>...
> >
> >highest rents, the most expensive houses, no parking, and
> >mostly left-wing idiots. But it's a great place to visit.
>
> No it's not. It's a tedious drive followed by a nightmare of traffic and
> parking. They should move the Exploritorium and Steinhart Aquarium to the
> Santa Cruz mountains and then dump the rest into the bay ;)
Uh, you didn't actually try DRIVING into The City, did you?
DID YOU? Oh, well....if you don't have enough brains to
stop at the nearest BART station, and ride in as BART intended,
and get on a cable car or trolley once you're here....
well, perhaps you'd be happier under orange skies, brushing
the Hollywood ash off your clothes.
Silas Warner
David Kaye
" However, for several years now there has been *very* active opposition
" to a Home Depot store moving into San Francisco by so-called
" "neighborhood activists" and the like.
Because of where Home Depot wanted to locate. First, they wanted to
locate South of Market where Price/Costco previously had turned a pleasant
SOMA neighborhood block into nameless, faceless cinderblock walls. The
people who still live in SOMA nixed that one RIGHT AWAY.
Next, Home Depot wanted to locate at Pier 80, currently the only ship
repair facility left in SF. The Port Commission (which Willie hasn't
succeeded in entirely controlling yet) finally nixed that one.
There is trepidation about a category killer such as Home Depot locating
within SF because people just ASSUME that Home Depot's prices are lower.
(They are not, as Rick Karp of Cole Hardware points out in his newsletter
every few months.)
" Me, I really like Cole Hardware and Cliff's, especially compared to Home
" Depot (I go to the one in Colma when I need something that the local
" stores don't have, which isn't too often).
Nathan, at the Cole on Mission, looked for weeks for me in the various
catalogs for a carpet shampooer (a "steam cleaner" if you will) until he
found a quality affordable one. He then brought it home to me on a
handtruck. If this had been Home Depot, (1) nobody would even know what I
was talking about, (2) I'd have to walk the aisles looking for a cleaner
and then have one one or two models to choose from, (3) have to lug it
home myself.
" Parking's a bitch at Cole or
" Cliff's, since you have to look for a street spot, but this is balanced
" out by [....]
And don't forget, they'll both deliver to you. (Well, I think Cliff's
still does that.)
" I like the fact that at the small stores I can get just a couple screws,
" nuts, washers, etc., instead of having to buy a blister pack of 100.
Cliff's once sold me 4 screws! I think the total price was 11 cents.
Just that fact alone endeared them to me and caused me to be a regular
Cliff's customer when I lived and/or worked within a mile of their store.
" Add that to the facts that you spend less time waiting in line at
" Cliff's or Cole
I have never spent more than about 30 seconds waiting in line at Cliff's.
Cole was a little longer, but not more than about 2 minutes. This is
something else unheard of at Home Depot. Plus, Cole will take my personal
check, give me free lightbulbs, and even give me a 3% refund credit at the
end of the year.
" The only advantages of Home Depot are (1) they're open a little later;
" (2) their prices are a little lower [....]
Which may or may not be the case. Rick Karp from Cole often compares
prices and shows that Cole's are actually lower on many, if not most
items. (This excludes 2nd quality Home Depot house brands, of course.)
" Now, now, David -- your original message which Kenny responded to
" concerned Restoration Hardware, which is *not* Home Depot by a long
" shot, even though there may be a corporate relationship (of which I was
" previously unaware).
If Home Depot does not own Restoration Hardware, then they own another
boutique hardware store chain, so as to kill the small hardware stores the
Depots can't reach. Home Depot has this two-pronged attack because
they're aware they're not wanted in some places, so they sneak in trying
to look like a Smith & Hawken or whatever.
" And you do seem to be conveniently forgetting about the longtime
" opposition to letting Home Depot into SF [....]
Nope, didn't forget. This is covered in another post.
" Speaking of Pottery Barn, I was actually a little surprised to learn
" that there are plans to build a huge one at the corner of Market and
" Castro -- I figured that the chain-store opposition would be up in arms
" about that one.
I suggested to the GLBT community center committee that they should look
into leasing or buying that building instead of building a new one out of
the neighborhood. But did they listen to me? No, of course not.
There is *some* chain store opposition inthe Castro, but remember that
most gay men in the Castro came here from somewhere else, growing up with
chain stores and shopping malls, so frankly, many of them don't know any
better. The *real* opposition to the chaining of SF comes mostly from the
people who grew up here.
--
(C) 2000 Part of the Alameda Naval Air
David Kaye Station is in San Francisco
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" You were the one who first said "they had a hard time finding a place in SF",
" so, which is it?
They did.
--
(C) 2000 The word "OK" comes from a mistaken abbreviation of "all
David Kaye correct" first appearing in the Boston Post in 1839
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
">The fact that you're not getting "real offers" may be your skills.
" Can't read today, David?
You said that you have "real offers" and that the wages in the Bay Area
are the highest. I'm saying that maybe you don't have any "real offers"
from LA because your skills aren't in much demand.
" Well, that's a nice ideal, but reality's shown me that there's few things
" more money can't fix in one's life.
Your version of reality and mine are different. I did grow up poor, so I
do have some idea about how little money can buy in the happiness
department.
--
(C) 2000 An electric eel can stun its
David Kaye prey as far as 12 feet away
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" Now, that's not very neighborly of you.
No, it isn't. While the rest of the Bay Area mocked SF and its
anti-growth, anti-chain, anti-mall policies, the rest of the Bay Area has
gone to hell and now SF is *the* place to live.
It's easy to figure out why. When people want to go some place for
adventure, for fun, they don't automatically choose Redwood City,
Milpitas, Fairfield, Mountain View, or Walnut Creek. They choose San
Francisco, the Napa Valley, or Santa Cruz, the *very* places which fought
off malls and chain stores because these places offer uniqueness not
offered by the malled suburbs.
--
(C) 2000 Over 6,000 meteorites have
David Kaye been found in Antarctica
dk at wco.com
Tom Galloway
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>languages, I began to wonder. Then it dawned on me that people in the
>media (radio and TV performers such as news anchors and talkshow hosts)
>also do better moneywise in LA than here. So, maybe this LA thing is true
>about programmers.
Apples and oranges David, and I'm really surprised that the reason for the
better pay for radio and tv performers isn't obvious to you.
LA's a larger market than SF. It's also, due to the entertainment business
being headquartered there, a higher prestige market than SF. So just as
radio and tv folk in SF make more than in, say, Atlanta, they make more
in LA and NYC than in SF.
Programmers, on the other hand, are a job category which has no relationship
to the size of the local market or prestige of same, save that salaries
tend to sync up to some degree with living costs. So a programmer in
the Research Triangle area of NC will make less than an equivalent position
in SF, just because any sane programmer will realize that houses/apartments
are more expensive by a factor of 3-4 (minimum) in SF than the Research
Triangle.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Tom Galloway
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>BOOKSTORE
>Crown Books opened a store across the street from Bookshop Santa Cruz, a
>local institution. Guess which one closed? Crown Books.
Yep, but BSC is just a better all around bookstore than Crown. I'd doubt
that it was "chain vs. non-chain" but "great bookstore vs adequate at
best bookstore" than won there.
>WRAPS
>One of those World Wrapps type of places opened a store on 24th Street in
>SF, down the street from a mom'n'pop diner. Guess which one closed. The
>World Wrapps kind of place. (I don't remember what the exact name of the
>place was, since it didn't last long enough to establish a reputation.)
FYI, World Wrapps started in San Francisco.
>HAIR SALONS
>Super Cuts dared to move in DIRECTLY NEXT DOOR to an established salon on
>24th Street in San Francisco. Currently, both are still there, though
>Super Cuts appears to not be doing any business at all.
Apples and oranges. Or at least that'd be my assumption. SuperCuts is for
cheap, basic, haircuts. A "salon" would seem to me to be for more elaborate
hair care. It's like saying a fancy steak house next to a McDonald's
means that both can't survive.
>CHAIN RESTAURANTS
>While there are some chain sit-down restaurants in SF, there aren't as
>many for the population as there are in other cities. There is only 1
>Denny's, 1 Lyons that I'm aware of, 2 IHOPs. The Copper Penny went out of
>business and became something else.
Again, a quality thing. SF is blessed with huge numbers of great restaurants
of all price ranges and cuisines.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Kenneth Crudup
>> Can't read today, David?
In article <RhdC4.419$56....@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>You said that you have "real offers" and that the wages in the Bay Area
>are the highest. I'm saying that maybe you don't have any "real offers"
>from LA because your skills aren't in much demand.
What does a "real offer" mean to *you*? To me, it means an offer tendered to
me. I could get 80K higher up here than I could down there, which buys a lot
of tickets on Southwest, so I can get my L.A fix on a regular basis.
>> but reality's shown me that there's few things more money can't fix in
>> one's life.
>Your version of reality and mine are different.
That's for damn sure!
>I did grow up poor,
Not poorer than *I* did, I'm pretty sure.
>so I do have some idea about how little money can buy in the happiness
>department.
and 'cause of my impoverished upbringing, I do have some idea how *much*
money can buy in the happiness department. Ain't no way I'd ever go back to
that.
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>There is *some* chain store opposition inthe Castro, but remember that
>most gay men in the Castro came here from somewhere else, growing up with
>chain stores and shopping malls, so frankly, many of them don't know any
>better. The *real* opposition to the chaining of SF comes mostly from the
>people who grew up here.
... residents of a deluded little world who can't stand change.
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>Exactly, but alas, some people have grown up not having friends and unable
>to form human bonds. This gets worse and worse as nameless, faceless
>suburbs and chain stores pockmark the earth, creating more Kip Kinkels who
>will scream out their pain by gunning down parents and classmates.
... if you tell me you wrote that with a straight face, I still won't believe
you did.
Kenneth Crudup
grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) says:
>One thread in all of the school shooters is that they all were
>ostrcized from their peer groups, and had questionable home lives.
Malls did that. Sure.
Kenneth Crudup
grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) says:
>Are you capable of anything besides petty insults?
You have obviously not been reading David Kaye's replies to
my posts in this thread. I'm only keeping with the general tone
(and far behind, IMO).
Charleen Bunjiovianna
>In article <38e1624c...@news.mindspring.com>,
>grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) says:
>
>>One thread in all of the school shooters is that they all were
>>ostrcized from their peer groups, and had questionable home lives.
>
>Malls did that. Sure.
Your skepticism is warranted.
There's a far greater chance that the recognition and subsequent denial
of pre-violence indicators by school staff, the parents and other kids
brought on the Columbine massacre.
In other words, before the shooting those 2 kids did everything except
go on a Jerry Springer episode of "Kids Who Want to Kill Everybody But
Especially Their Peers".
The media portrays these incidents as isolated events, but they never are.
The post-incident outcry is usually "How could we have known?" The answer
is: "You did know. You just tuned out the signals."
The idea that shooting sprees are caused by shopping malls makes about as
much sense as attributing them to small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.
David, you have a good heart but sometimes it gets in the way of your head.
Charleen
A. Sears
>
> ke...@panix.com writes:
>
> >grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) says:
> >
> >>One thread in all of the school shooters is that they all were
> >>ostrcized from their peer groups, and had questionable home lives.
> >
> >Malls did that. Sure.
>
> Your skepticism is warranted.
>
> much sense as attributing them to small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.
> David, you have a good heart but sometimes it gets in the way of your head.
Or, as JeffZ put it on another NG a few years back, "Your heart is in
the right place, but your head is squarely up your butt."
GeneK
"small neighborhood shops" *or* "impersonal mall chainstores."
What should have been the "main shopping street" for the community
was a long row of boarded up or burnt out dead spaces, and
*everybody* shopped for *everything,* from groceries to hardware,
by getting into their cars and driving out of town to the
"highway stores," which were rows of businesses built right along
a limited access highway. There's nothing equivalent in CA that
I've seen, but imagine El Camino Real on the Peninsula with no
cross-streets, traffic signals or sidewalks and a speed limit
around 65 MPH and you'll get the concept. There were no local
shops to provide kids with after school jobs, no social services,
no community centers, no "midnight basketball," no city councils
passing teen curfew laws. There were few burglaries, purse-snatches
or other petty thefts, and *no* Columbine school shootings or drive-by
gang warfare. This was because we kids grew up in "Community #1,"
our *families.* Our parents were *there,* setting rules (like curfews),
keeping their eyes on us and exacting *discipline.* When we
came home with "no homework," our parents were on the phone to the
school, asking the teacher *why* there wasn't any; when the schools
scheduled "parent teacher meeting nights," our parents were there,
not to bask in our teachers' glowing praise of us, but to get the
lowdown on how we were screwing up; and if the phone ever rang and
it turned out to be a teacher wanting to talk to our parents, we
just sat down and waited, not for our parents to yell at our teachers,
defend us and threaten to sue the school, but for them to get off the
phone and *bring our lives as we knew them to an end.* Parenting was
hard work, and our parents worked hard at it and took it seriously;
if we got into any kind of trouble, we could look forward to months
of hell from them, as well as the sight of them hanging their heads
in shame as they passed neighbors on the street who knew how we'd
messed up. Maybe those parents who made it through their childhoods
ok and who are now looking toward "the community" to help them raise
their kids should spend a little more time looking back on what lengths
their parents went to to raise *them.*
Charleen Bunjiovianna wrote:
>
> There's a far greater chance that the recognition and subsequent denial
> of pre-violence indicators by school staff, the parents and other kids
> brought on the Columbine massacre.
>
> In other words, before the shooting those 2 kids did everything except
> go on a Jerry Springer episode of "Kids Who Want to Kill Everybody But
> Especially Their Peers".
>
> The media portrays these incidents as isolated events, but they never are.
> The post-incident outcry is usually "How could we have known?" The answer
> is: "You did know. You just tuned out the signals."
>
Geoff Galitz
>
> " Now, that's not very neighborly of you.
>
> No, it isn't. While the rest of the Bay Area mocked SF and its
> anti-growth, anti-chain, anti-mall policies, the rest of the Bay Area has
> gone to hell and now SF is *the* place to live.
>
Mocked? Aren't we being a tad sensitive?
When I taught (private companies, not for my current
employer) in San Jose, the folks down there couldn't figure
out why on Earth I liked living in SF. Well.. so what?
They didn't lose much sleep over it, and neither did I.
And we still got the job done.
-geoff
Kenneth Crudup
GeneK <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> says:
>I grew up in a neighborhood where there were *no* stores, not
>"small neighborhood shops" *or* "impersonal mall chainstores."
>What should have been the "main shopping street" for the community
>was a long row of boarded up or burnt out dead spaces, and
>*everybody* shopped for *everything,* from groceries to hardware,
>by getting into their cars and driving out of town to the
>"highway stores," which were rows of businesses built right along
>a limited access highway.
My God! You grew up in Gary, IN, too?!
GeneK
Matt Ackeret
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>I was down in Mountain View not long ago. I wouldn't wish that community
>on anyone. What a mess.
Then why the heck did you come here?
--
mat...@area.com
Matt Ackeret
Doug Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:56:48 GMT, a butterfly in Costa Rica
>flapped its wings, causing David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> to
>write:
>
>>Is there anything bad about this? Well, not all WalMart's are successful.
>>In fact, hundreds of them have closed, leaving their little communities
>>with no replacement businesses whatsoever. I believe Kansas City is one
>>of those cities where WalMart came in and devastated the local economy and
>>then closed down and went away leaving abandoned stores in its wake.
>
>WalMart's history of censorship also makes me very wary of them.
>They have no qualms about imposing their moral views on the
>products they carry. This would be fine if they left some
>competiton alive.
There is competition.. They wouldn't carry Sheryl Crow's album, so
you buy it at Tower, or BMG Music Service, or CDNOW, etc..
--
mat...@area.com
Matt Ackeret
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>CHAIN RESTAURANTS
>While there are some chain sit-down restaurants in SF, there aren't as
>many for the population as there are in other cities. There is only 1
>Denny's, 1 Lyons that I'm aware of, 2 IHOPs. The Copper Penny went out of
>business and became something else.
>
>in SF.
Maybe these and other chains aren't doing as well as they could in other
places because of the huge rents? And because I presume chains tend to
have larger size stores than non-chain stores, rent is a bigger concern.
--
mat...@area.com
Matt Ackeret
Tom Galloway <t...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <RrWB4.324$56....@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
>David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>>Crown Books opened a store across the street from Bookshop Santa Cruz, a
>>local institution. Guess which one closed? Crown Books.
>
>Yep, but BSC is just a better all around bookstore than Crown. I'd doubt
>that it was "chain vs. non-chain" but "great bookstore vs adequate at
>best bookstore" than won there.
Books are list price at Bookshop Santa Cruz, right?
"Books Cost Too Much".
--
mat...@area.com
Matt Ackeret
Doug Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Socialization is a vital part of growing up. We are social
>animals. We're primates at the core, and need to belong.
But socialization has nothing to do with buying commodities at higher prices
for no actual benefit.
--
mat...@area.com
henry mensch
> WRAPS
> One of those World Wrapps type of places opened a store on 24th Street in
> SF, down the street from a mom'n'pop diner. Guess which one closed. The
> World Wrapps kind of place. (I don't remember what the exact name of the
> place was, since it didn't last long enough to establish a reputation.)
in fact, this was a chain restaurant (there was a similar one in the castro
that met
a similar fate: these were converted over to "mexican" restaurants ... and
the unit
on 24th street failed to thrive. of course, about six doors down an
established
family-owned greek restaurant closed down after eleventy billion years and
was
replaced with ... pasta pomodoro (yes, a chain restaurant) ... and it's not
like 24th
street needed any more italian/pasta ...
> There is only 1 Denny's
i'm aware of two: one in japantown, and another on mission at fifth.
neither is
wanting for business ... and the denny's in j-town frequently has a long
wait.
--
# henry mensch / <henry at verve.org> / pob 14592; sf, ca 94114-0592; usa
# http://www.verve.org/henry/
henry mensch
of these can be found downtown (the san francisco center is, itself, a
mall with a non-traditional vertical architecture!)
what is true is that there's absolutely a backlash against these places in
"the
neighborhoods"
John Higdon
> Wow, you were "down in Mountain View not long ago"....must make you an expert
> on the city huh? Naw....I bet you drove down El Camino, or sped down 101, saw
> the local Costco, and damned the city to hell.
San Francisco is one of the very few cities in the Bay Area where one is
forced off the freeway when passing through. Other cities and towns,
including Oakland and San Jose, can be zipped past with nary a glance. "Oh,
so that's Son Jose. Sure isn't much."
Over the past couple of years, I have been doing some field work that has
required that I go to some of the Bay Area cities and towns and actually get
out and look at some of the town's features. In the process, I have
uncovered some treasures.
Martinez--you know that smelly place you whiz past on your way up 680 to
Sacramento--has a very quaint downtown. It is on a waterway, so there are
boat shops and some colorful local restaurants. The hilly terrain contains
some very impressive houses.
Every town in the region has a personality and an identity that is hidden
from the freeway that passes by. Each of the peninsula towns, including
Mountain View, has an interesting history, local shops and restaurants, and
a concerned community. Speaking of restaurants, Belmont is a virtual
treasure trove of great places to eat. Not long ago, after an event at Bay
Meadows, a group of us stumbled on to an Italian restaurant nearby that has
some of the best food I have ever ingested, in a great atmosphere with a
most attentive waiter. It was an experience that rivaled any in any eating
establishment anywhere.
Frankly, if anyone in San Francisco wants to think that worthwhile existence
begins and ends in that city, he limits only himself. I enjoy being able to
partake of that which is worthwhile in that city as well as the wealth of
experiences available in the rest of the Bay Area.
--
John Higdon | P.O. Box 7648 | http://www.anntec.com/
+1 415 428 2697 | Silicon Valley, CA 95150-7648 | FAX: +1 408 264 4407
+1 408 264 4115 | Email Address Valid |
henry mensch
> locate South of Market where Price/Costco previously had turned a pleasant
> SOMA neighborhood block into nameless, faceless cinderblock walls.
we mustn't have the same costco in mind. the one i know is right off a
freeway on/offramp, and was located where a block of derelect buildings
once stood.
henry mensch
> highest rents, the most expensive houses, no parking, and
> mostly left-wing idiots. But it's a great place to visit.
with all of these negatives why would someone like you want to visit san
francisco at all?
TechnoShroom
family fair or teen hang out. Could it be that fewer family's dine out in SF
than in other areas? I know the Denny's in the town I was from was popular
because it was the only restaurant that was open late. Even the fast food
chains closed at 10 pm.
Could it be that there are more late night dining options in SF and the
increased competition makes low profit/high volume restaurants like Denny's
unprofitable? If that were the case it wouldn't really be a question of
rebelling so much as it is the number of late night diners being spread over
more choices.
Just some thoughts.
Matt Ackeret <mat...@vax.area.com> wrote in message
news:8bej44$jau$1...@vax.area.com...
> In article <RrWB4.324$56....@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
> David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
Nap98
>I was down in Mountain View not long ago. I wouldn't wish that community
>on anyone. What a mess.
>
Wow, you were "down in Mountain View not long ago"....must make you an expert
on the city huh? Naw....I bet you drove down El Camino, or sped down 101, saw
the local Costco, and damned the city to hell.
People like you really carry on the image of the snobby San Franciscan with his
or her head stuck up in the fog.
For your information, Mountain View has a pretty good mix of national chain
stores, and independent stores....if that's what you judge a city by.
We have one of the most successful Downtowns in the area full restaurants,
coffee shops, bookstores, and successful local shops and services. Not chains
stores. Not a mall in this town's borders either.
We aren't exactly a suburb either, especially one of San Francisco. We have
25,000 more jobs then residents. Some people live in SF, and work in MV. We are
very dense, not as dense as some areas of SF, but dense enough to have a
population of 80,000 people in a pretty small area. Most new development is
centered around Caltrain or Light Rail stations.
People come to visit this city, even San Franciscans. They come to enjoy things
which residents here have available to them every day. They ride a bike or
study nature in our 800 acre bayside park. They come to eat in the downtown
area, or see a play in the downtown Center of the Performing Arts, or see a
concert in Shoreline Amphitheater. Or maybe they come to visit NASA, or have a
business appointment at one of the important companies head quartered here.
Mountain View is a vibrant, and important city, whether you would like to admit
it or not.
So next time you call a city "a mess" why don't you take a closer look at it,
before you make yourself look like an idiot.
-Nick
Visit A Guide to Mountain View
http://members.aol.com/Nap98/MtnViewGuide1.htm
Kenneth Crudup
grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) says:
>Ah. "He started it!" A valid excuse for climbing into the mud pit as well.
No, you're right- it isn't, and that really should not have been my response.
In actuality, the mindset I've seen from David and those like him is backwards
on it's face, and "close-minded", etc. are merely how I feel on the issue,
not some lame rejoinder.
But, so far, I've managed to stay out of SF, and them here, so I guess in the
end we're all happy.
Geoff Galitz
Hmm.. this particulare message seems to have been dropped by
my news server, but if we are talking about Denny's in SF,
there are at least 3:
1 - Fisherman's Wharf off Leavenworth (or close by)
2 - Mission and 5th (it's not very conspicous, and I'm
not entirely sure it's still open)
3 - Japantown (never seen that one, myself)
I suspect there are more. I imagine there's gotta be
one near the Zoo. It's amazing what you will find
when taking a long strolling walk.
-geoff
>
> >> There is only 1 Denny's
> >
> >i'm aware of two: one in japantown, and another on mission at fifth.
>
> Where at Mission/5th? I haven't noticed one down there..
John Higdon
> Caprino's by any chance?
I depended on the others in the party (unfortunately, not immediately
available for inquiry) to remember the name of the restaurant. It was
located (I think) right on El Camino Real. The name sounds familiar, though.
> But, there is no denying that some of those cities are *really* ugly,
> Hayward being probably #1 on my list.
I have to admit that I have yet to find the latent, intrinsic charm of
Hayward or San Leandro. I would have to say the the peninsula towns seem to
have more personality.
GeneK
but I'm not sure I'd want to live in either of those places. I also
wouldn't want to live in Carmel-by-the-Sea, a place that SF is starting
to remind me of more and more with each passing year, but there are
folks who live there and love it, too. I happen to *like* the fact
that SF is different from the place where I live; I usually only go
there because I've got out-of-town visitors who want to see places
like Fisherman's Wharf, and I'd sure be a lot more annoyed than I
already am by the traffic and the crowds I have to wade through if
all there was up there was another Valley Fair by the Bay.
At the end of my day I like to go home, sit by the creek and watch
the ducks swim by; I don't think I want to go home to a place I consider
an "adventure," though I can certainly understand why other people -
much *younger* ones than *I* am - might get off on the energy. I'm just
not sure exactly why it's necessary to defend your own choice of a place
that suits your tastes to live by insulting places that suit other peoples'.
David Kaye wrote:
>
> When people want to go some place for
> adventure, for fun, they don't automatically choose Redwood City,
> Milpitas, Fairfield, Mountain View, or Walnut Creek. They choose San
> Francisco, the Napa Valley, or Santa Cruz, the *very* places which fought
> off malls and chain stores because these places offer uniqueness not
> offered by the malled suburbs.
David Kaye
" including Oakland and San Jose, can be zipped past with nary a glance. "Oh,
" so that's Son Jose. Sure isn't much."
However, as you may know, a company I once managed had business relations
with Artson Answering in Mountain View. I spent lots of time down there
and got to know the area quite well.
" Martinez--you know that smelly place you whiz past on your way up 680 to
" Sacramento--has a very quaint downtown.
Martinez is very pretty. The fact that Amtrak stops there adds a lot to
the old style charm. If I were to live in a small community in the Bay
Area, it would probably be Martinez, Brisbane, or maybe Niles.
" Every town in the region has a personality and an identity that is hidden
" from the freeway that passes by. Each of the peninsula towns, including
" Mountain View, has an interesting history, local shops and restaurants, and
" a concerned community.
Sure, it's possible to find a little charm in Mountain View, but it's so
overwhelmed by ugliness that there's so little in comparison.
" Meadows, a group of us stumbled on to an Italian restaurant nearby that has
" some of the best food I have ever ingested, in a great atmosphere with a
" most attentive waiter.
Caprino's by any chance?
" Frankly, if anyone in San Francisco wants to think that worthwhile existence
" begins and ends in that city, he limits only himself.
As you know, I grew up in SF and Hayward, so I've had a taste of both the
citiest of cities and the burbiest of burbs.
Periodically I make trips to the burbs. Only a few weeks ago I went to
La Imperial on C Street in Hayward and had a delicious meal. La Imperial
is also nostalgic for me, since my dad built part of that place.
At some point, I plan to do some bicycling along what's left of the
marshes of Southern Alameda County.
But, there is no denying that some of those cities are *really* ugly,
Hayward being probably #1 on my list.
--
(C) 2000 Male monkeys get male pattern baldness
David Kaye the same as male humans
dk at wco.com
Nap98
>with Artson Answering in Mountain View. I spent lots of time down there
>and got to know the area quite well
Mr. Kaye fails to mention that that business was located on Old Middlefield
Road. He told me this in an e-mail. (And just as a warning, if you send an
e-mail from Mr. Kaye concerning this newsgroup, he will have a cow.)
As any local would know, Old Middlefield is the industrial service area of
Mountain View, and apparently Mr. Kaye is judging the city by that
neighborhood. It's like someone judging SF by spending time in Hunter's Point
and briefly visiting other areas of the city.
>Sure, it's possible to find a little charm in Mountain View, but it's so
>overwhelmed by ugliness that there's so little in comparison.
Ugly, what's ugly? I know some things in Mountain View are ugly, but not enough
to call the entire city ugly.
Is Shoreline Park ugly? How about the Rengstorff Mansion, or our Civic Center?
How about the historic commercial buildings in Downtown Mountain View, or the
interesting Spanish revival style buildings in Moffett Field?
How about the award winning Silicon Graphics Headquarters? Or a view of
Shoreline Amphitheater across of marshlands teeming with birds. How about the
view from the pedestrian bridges going over the forested banks of Stevens
Creek, where you can see ducks wading in the water below you?
Or the hundreds of well kept historic homes surrounding downtown built in the
turn of the century.The rolling little hills of Cuesta Park shaded by pines, or
the stunning view of the sun setting over the Santa Cruz Mountains from the
preserved orchard next to it? Or the huge oak trees that shade Pioneer Park
next to the library.
I could go on and on, and I apologize if I already have gone on to long. Oh
well, I'm proud of my city, as are most residents who call Mountain View home.
I'm not saying it's the best city in the world, but I'm not going to let Mr.
Kaye here set the impression in this newsgroup that it's an ugly city that is
"a mess."
I bet that he has not even been to one of those places or seen one of those
things that I have mentioned above. The day he does I hope he will be eating
the harsh words he has posted here. And if he never does, he's missing out on a
great little chunk of the Bay Area.
Kenneth Crudup
na...@aol.com (Nap98) says:
>great little chunk of the Bay Area.
Heh. Who'd ever thing "Mr. MV" and I would be on the same side? :-)
David Kaye
" [....] (And just as a warning, if you send an
" e-mail from Mr. Kaye concerning this newsgroup, he will have a cow.)
This is true. I make no secret about the fact that I feel that personal
email should be used only for personal communications, not responses to
public forums.
No doubt there are attractive things about any city. You've pointed out
some of them about Mountain View.
--
(C) 2000 Harold Vanderbilt created a Vanderbilt
David Kaye Cup in 1928 for bridge playing
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" Is Shoreline Park ugly?
It's not especially pretty.
" How about the Rengstorff Mansion
It's just a typical Victorian era house, looking much like Hayward's Meek
Estate and not nearly as ornate as Oakland's Dunsmuir House.
" How about the award winning Silicon Graphics Headquarters?
Personally, the SGI HQ does nothing for me.
" Or a view of
" Shoreline Amphitheater across of marshlands teeming with birds.
Well, this area certainly has improved since the days when it was a dump.
Mountain View has done a lot with Woz and Bill Graham's money to improve
its shoreline.
" I bet that he has not even been to one of those places or seen one of those
" things that I have mentioned above.
Actually, I have; I've seen most of it, most of the buildings you mention,
most of the sights you mention.
" The day he does I hope he will be eating
" the harsh words he has posted here. And if he never does, he's missing
" out on a great little chunk of the Bay Area.
I'm glad you think it's great and are doing your best to help promote it.
--
(C) 2000 Marx brother Harpo Marx in 1938, legally changed
David Kaye his his first name from Adolph to Arthur.
dk at wco.com
cliff
says...
>
>Martinez is very pretty. The fact that Amtrak stops there adds a lot to
>the old style charm. If I were to live in a small community in the Bay
>Area, it would probably be Martinez, Brisbane, or maybe Niles.
>
>
>overwhelmed by ugliness that there's so little in comparison.
>
I am a bit surprised at the contradiction in the two paragraphs you wrote.
In the first paragraph you indicate you might like to live in the small
community of Niles and in the second paragraph you indicate you are so
overwhelmed by the ugliness in Mountain View that you cannot find much charm in
the rest of the city.
I am surprised that you would even consider Niles when Niles is but a very
small part of Fremont which has to be one of the uglist cities west of the
Atlantic.
Before any one flames me for being so down on Fremont, I lived there (and in
Newark) for 17 years.
Cliff
David Kaye
" My God! You grew up in Gary, IN, too?!
But why did GeneK turn out so much nicer?
--
(C) 2000 The total area of Denver International
David Kaye Airport is 53 square miles, larger than
dk at wco.com the total land area of San Francisco
David Kaye
" a similar fate: these were converted over to "mexican" restaurants ... and
" the unit on 24th street failed to thrive.
As a "wraps" place it folded. The place was empty for several months.
" of course, about six doors down an
" established
" family-owned greek restaurant closed down after eleventy billion years and
" was
" replaced with ... pasta pomodoro (yes, a chain restaurant) ...
The Greek family decided to sell. It wasn't for lack of business. They
did quite well, but decided to retire.
" i'm aware of two: one in japantown, and another on mission at fifth.
There's a Denny's at Mission and 5th? Since when? I know there's an IHOP
in that block (next to the Call Building), but a Denny's?
" neither is
" wanting for business ... and the denny's in j-town frequently has a long
" wait.
Well, the IHOP used to have very limited hours, basically daytime. I
think they closed at 3pm. I used to go to the Cartoon Art Museum nearby,
so had occasion to pass the IHOP as it was closing.
--
(C) 2000 "You buy a bad car, it breaks down, what
David Kaye are you gonna do?" - Charlie Sheen after
dk at wco.com breaking up with model Donna Peele
Kenneth Crudup
In article <tbVC4.588$56....@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>But why did GeneK turn out so much nicer?
Lots and *lots* of practice on my part.
-Kenny, who considers "nice" to be *way* down on the list
of traits I've determined to be necessary for success
David Kaye
" Hmm.. this particulare message seems to have been dropped by
" my news server, but if we are talking about Denny's in SF,
" there are at least 3:
Okay, there are 2 more: 495 Beach, which must be the old Zim's. Dunno, I
haven't been in that 'hood for ages. And now one at 816 Mission, which
would put it at about 5th. This must be very new, since I work only a few
blocks away from there and haven't seen it.
Needless to say, Denny's has located in the 3 areas with the most
tourists: 5th and Mission (near the cable cars and the Metreon shopping
mall), near Fisherman's Wharf, and in Japantown.
" I suspect there are more. I imagine there's gotta be
" one near the Zoo. It's amazing what you will find
" when taking a long strolling walk.
I can think of a place where I'd like to *have* a Denny's because their
food is better than what's available elsewhere. (The outer Mission.)
However, the point was not that there aren't chain stores in SF, but that
the number is *low* and there are a *lot* of people who actually *live* in
SF who really don't want them.
--
(C) 2000 The rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum
David Kaye are the names for a cow's 4 stomachs
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" FYI, World Wrapps started in San Francisco.
So did the Gap, Old Navy, Banana Republic, (I think) Roundtable Pizza,
etc., and Noah's Bagels in Berkeley, and Starbuck's got its inspiration
from Peet's in Berkeley.
Just because a chain started here does not change the fact that a chain is
a chain: (1) little concern for the local community, (2) little long-term
management, (3) little participation in the workings of the community
except to get permits for themselves.
--
(C) 2000 The word "alcatraz" is Spanish for "pelican"
David Kaye
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" we mustn't have the same costco in mind. the one i know is right off a
" freeway on/offramp, and was located where a block of derelect buildings
" once stood.
I happened to eat lunch in a diner in one of those "delerlict buildings"
several times a week. Also, there were apartments on that block as well,
including several circa 1885 Victorians wedged in among the machine shops.
--
(C) 2000 What do you call a trombonist with a beeper
David Kaye and a cellular telephone? An optimist.
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" Then why the heck did you come here?
I went to Mountain View to talk to a venture capitalist. Any more
questions?
--
(C) 2000 In California, highway signs were put up
David Kaye privately by the AAA from 1906 until 1956,
dk at wco.com and in some cases as late as 1969
David Kaye
" San Francisco has the worst weather in the Bay Area, the
" highest rents, the most expensive houses, no parking, and
" mostly left-wing idiots. But it's a great place to visit.
Agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed, pretty much so, and yes it is. I'm not
saying there aren't better places to live. It's a tradeoff for me.
I think Portland is a much better planned city, the civic leaders seem to
care more about the community than the leaders here, and it seems to have
a much larger middle class, which I feel is a benefit in making a city
run. It's also cheap enough that more working class people can realize
their dreams there than here.
I lived in Portland about 6 years, and have a fondness for the place. I
think I may move back there again at some point, but there are definite
advantages to SF for me at present.
--
(C) 2000 MGM, the greatest studio in the history of Hollywood,
David Kaye was never really in Hollywood; it was in Culver City
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" Uh, you didn't actually try DRIVING into The City, did you?
" DID YOU? Oh, well....if you don't have enough brains to
" stop at the nearest BART station, and ride in as BART intended,
" and get on a cable car or trolley once you're here....
I can hardly wait for the opening week at PacBell Park (Giants stadium). I
went to Cirque du Soleil the other night (situated in a tent in the
PacBell parking lot across the Lefty O'Doul bridge from the stadium).
Place was a mess of people walking the bridge and bumper to bumper traffic
that went on for half an hour after the show let out.
Now, multiply that by about 10 for the size of PacBell Park and Giants
days are going to be horrendous.
And then add to that the new UCSF biotech facility going in soon at
Mission Bay down the street (thanks again, Willie), and add another 17,000
commuters a day to the mess.
--
(C) 2000 CBS's Columbia Square in Los Angeles (home
David Kaye of KNX and KCBS-TV) is the site of Nestor Films,
dk at wco.com the very first Hollywood movie studio
David Kaye
" Mocked? Aren't we being a tad sensitive?
No, not really. We've all heard the sayings, "Tilt America on its side
and shake it and everything that's loose lands in San Francisco"; or
perhaps, "San Francisco, land of fruits and nuts"; or maybe this old
Robert Klein (I think) joke: "My wife visited San Francisco and got the
shock of her life: her hairdresser was a WOMAN!"
I'm quite pleased that people today see that (1) the environmentalists
weren't so crazy after all, (2) urban planning *is* important, (3) public
transportation *does* matter, (4) the geeks have most of the money.
--
(C) 2000 Officially, a badminton bird must have 16 feathers
Kenneth Crudup
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>No, it isn't. While the rest of the Bay Area mocked SF and its
>anti-growth, anti-chain, anti-mall policies, the rest of the Bay Area has
>gone to hell and now SF is *the* place to live.
Ain't opinions *wonderful*?!
-Kenny
Kenneth Crudup
In article <emdC4.422$56....@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> says:
>It's easy to figure out why.
<reasons snipped>
Seems to me you've forgotten the *biggest* one: SillyCon Valley.
-Kenny "Follow the money" Crudup
Silas Warner
>
> The Phone Booth is across the street from a CalTrain station,
> served by Muni buses and metro trains. There will be shuttles
> from the Embarcadero BART station to and from the park on game
> days.
>
> Anybody who thinks they have to drive to the park is nuts.
Or from Pacifica, or Oakley, or San Ramon, or Los Gatos where
people live in their cars and would never dream of letting
anyone else share their travel space.
Silas Warner
Michael Wise
<d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
> " i'm aware of two: one in japantown, and another on mission at fifth.
>
> There's a Denny's at Mission and 5th? Since when? I know there's an
> IHOP
> in that block (next to the Call Building), but a Denny's?
Yes, a Denny's. On Mission (north side) between 4th and 5th. It's been
there for ages.
--Mike
henry mensch
north side of the block, directly across from the garage. the storefront is
inconspicuous; it leads you downstairs, i think...
--
# henry mensch / <henry at verve.org> / pob 14592; sf, ca 94114-0592; usa
# http://www.verve.org/henry/
Matt Ackeret
Nap98 <na...@aol.com> wrote:
>>However, as you may know, a company I once managed had business relations
>>with Artson Answering in Mountain View. I spent lots of time down there
>>and got to know the area quite well
>
>Mr. Kaye fails to mention that that business was located on Old Middlefield
>e-mail from Mr. Kaye concerning this newsgroup, he will have a cow.)
If you send him an email reply about ANYTHING, he will spaz... Seems kind
of silly to post with a real email address (very obviously munged) then
go ballistic when someone actually *replies*.
(Yes, I know, now this is the fourth time I've mentioned this.. It just
seems like such a ridiculous way for him to behave, when there are LOTS of
times when replies are more appropriate privately than publically.)
--
mat...@area.com
Matt Ackeret
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>Nap98 wrote the quoted material below:
>
>" [....] (And just as a warning, if you send an
>" e-mail from Mr. Kaye concerning this newsgroup, he will have a cow.)
>
>email should be used only for personal communications, not responses to
>public forums.
That's what you don't get -- RESPONSES TO USENET NEWSGROUPS _ARE_ personal
communications.
--
mat...@area.com
Matt Ackeret
David Kaye <d...@removethis.wco.com> wrote:
>Just because a chain started here does not change the fact that a chain is
>a chain: (1) little concern for the local community, (2) little long-term
>management, (3) little participation in the workings of the community
>except to get permits for themselves.
Any company is there to make money. A chain just happens to do it better.
--
mat...@area.com
David Kaye
" I am surprised that you would even consider Niles when Niles is but a very
" small part of Fremont which has to be one of the uglist cities west of the
" Atlantic.
While Niles is technically part of Fremont (part of the incorporation of 5
towns in the 1950s), it sits by itself.
--
(C) 2000 Time Warner sponsors a Girl Scout
David Kaye "Women in Cable TV" merit badge
David Kaye
" The Phone Booth is across the street from a CalTrain station,
" served by Muni buses and metro trains. There will be shuttles
" from the Embarcadero BART station to and from the park on game
" days.
This is not going to sink in with the people who come from the Peninsula
and South Bay to Giants games. I've watched as people left Candlestick
after Giants games. In fact, was watching them one day from Candlestick
Hill. Thousands of cars drove off to the south. I don't think it will be
easy to get South Bay people out of their cars just to see Giants games.
--
(C) 2000 Native Inuit (Eskimos) have less body
David Kaye hair than any other racial group.
David Kaye
" I have to admit that I have yet to find the latent, intrinsic charm of
" Hayward or San Leandro. I would have to say the the peninsula towns seem to
" have more personality.
Having spent some years in Hayward during my youth and working in the
Hunt's canneries as a teen, I can say that instead of getting prettier
over the years, Hayward has gotten even uglier. And their charming
old-style downtown had the heart yanked out of it when they decided to
bulldoze an entire city block, and left an ugly hole for 5 years.
This is not to speak disparagingly of the people who live there, people
who possess an earthy charm I've always liked.
--
(C) 2000 It took 50 years from the invention of the ball-
David Kaye point in 1888 until its common everyday use