# Toasters that do NOT toast bagels

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### Jeff Liebermann

Jun 16, 2008, 1:21:17 PM6/16/08
to
Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread. That's because the
heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It
takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
done in less than a minute. Any pointers?

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

### Tim May

Jun 16, 2008, 1:42:22 PM6/16/08
to
In article <428d54lrpgldeu2ov...@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
> rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread. That's because the
> heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It
> takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
> done in less than a minute. Any pointers?

Most toasters, as you note, now have wider slots. To cater to both
thicker pieces of bread, buns, and even things the Jews like to eat.

Fortunately, the physics is on the side of wider slots. Go ahead, test
it out, as I have done. (My Cuisinart wide slot toaster does individual
slices of normal bread very, very quickly, faster than my old
narrow-slot toaster did.)

The physics works because the geometry is close to that of the infinite
plane solution in elecytrostatics: whether the bread is 2 mm from the
coils or 10 mm from the coils, the distance is short compared to either
the overall length and width. Thus, the parallel plate solution.

Put another way, essentially _all_ of the radiant energy (the dominant
means of heating in toasters, as opposed to ovens) is coupled into the
bread surface. (The heating of the air space in the toaster is an issue
to consider, but is minuscule in both narrow and wide gap toasters,
both because of the low infrared absorbtion of air and the low thermal
mass of air. And as much "heated air" rises out of a narrow-slot
toaster as with a wide-slot toaster, to first order.)

Granted, widening the slots further and further causes the geometry to
go from parallel-point to something where the the full radiant power
output of the coils is NOT used to toast the bread. For example,
toaster ovens. There, the coils are 50 mm or more from the
bread--unless pains are taken to remove the (usually greasy) rack and
place it as high as it will go, which often is still more than 25 mm
from the coils).

Also with toaster ovens, the power budget (which is constrained to
about 1400 watts in standard residential wiring setups) means a toaster
oven uses its coil power in two large an area. In both the physical
area of the toaster and the size of the coils.

This can be seen just by looking at the _color_ of the coils: in a
toaster the (up to 1400 watts) power produces bright yellow coils. A
toaster oven has to heat the much larger (volume as well as area) coils
for a longer time to reach a color that is rarely more than orange.

Anyway, a modern toaster, even one equipped to handle those funny bagel
things, will couple 'bright yellow" coils to bread very efficiently.
Any parallel plate geometry will.

--Tim May

### Karen

Jun 16, 2008, 7:58:34 PM6/16/08
to
On Jun 16, 10:21 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> toast bagels?  The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> bagels.  Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
> rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread.  That's because the
> heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread.  It
> takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
> done in less than a minute.  Any pointers?

I just got a new toaster, and the slots are wider to accommodate
bagels, etc., but it still toasts plain toast a lot faster than my old
toaster, and bagels and English muffins got stuck in that one because
the slots were too narrow.

I don't think you can find a narrow slotted toaster, anymore.

Karen

Message has been deleted

### Ciccio

Jun 17, 2008, 1:37:07 AM6/17/08
to
On Jun 16, 10:42 am, Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:

> Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> > toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> > bagels.

> Most toasters, as you note, now have wider slots. To cater to both

> thicker pieces of bread, buns, and even things the Jews like to eat.

And a guy named Liebermann is asking for something other than
that...My Gawd! The Irony of it all!!

Ciccio

### Jeff Liebermann

Jun 17, 2008, 3:31:03 AM6/17/08
to
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:42:22 -0700, Tim May
<tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:

>In article <428d54lrpgldeu2ov...@4ax.com>, Jeff
>Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
>> toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
>> bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
>> rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread. That's because the
>> heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It
>> takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
>> done in less than a minute. Any pointers?

>Most toasters, as you note, now have wider slots. To cater to both
>thicker pieces of bread, buns, and even things the Jews like to eat.

Yep. Jews control the appliance business.

>Fortunately, the physics is on the side of wider slots. Go ahead, test
>it out, as I have done. (My Cuisinart wide slot toaster does individual
>slices of normal bread very, very quickly, faster than my old
>narrow-slot toaster did.)

I haven't, but I will. Unfortunately, I don't currently own a
toaster.

The question was posed to me my a goy (non-Jewish) friend, who does
not like bagels and suspects that the wider slots may be responsible
for the extended toasting time. Apparently, he purchased a commodity
wide slot toaster, and found that it takes 5+ minutes to toast two
slices of bread. He asked me to find him a current model narrow slot
toaster, which I was unable to find at Kmart, Sears, and online. I
did find a 4 narrow slice toaster that might qualify, but that seemed
both overkill and over priced.

>The physics works because the geometry is close to that of the infinite
>plane solution in elecytrostatics: whether the bread is 2 mm from the
>coils or 10 mm from the coils, the distance is short compared to either
>the overall length and width. Thus, the parallel plate solution.

Sounds good, but I'm suspicious. All styles of toaster have a
mechanism that centers the bread in the slot, to be equal distant
between the heating coils. See:
<http://home.howstuffworks.com/toaster2.htm>
If the toast were not centered, one side would be carbonized, while
the other side would remain untoasted.

Last time I checked, inverse square law still works inside a toaster.
A few measurements with an IR optical thermometer on narrow or wide
toast, should be sufficient to determine if the distance is really
irrelevant. It probably doesn't have enough dynamic range to measure
the red hot wires, but can probably measure the temperature of the
toast, case, air, and vicinity.

>Put another way, essentially _all_ of the radiant energy (the dominant
>means of heating in toasters, as opposed to ovens) is coupled into the
>bread surface. (The heating of the air space in the toaster is an issue
>to consider, but is minuscule in both narrow and wide gap toasters,
>both because of the low infrared absorbtion of air and the low thermal
>mass of air. And as much "heated air" rises out of a narrow-slot
>toaster as with a wide-slot toaster, to first order.)

It's possible that you're correct because the IR energy produced by
the wires has to go somewhere. If not the toast, it would need to
either heat the air, heat the case, or both. I suspect it is mostly
heating the case, which can also be measured. At this point, I don't
know, but plan to see for myself. Methinks I can afford to sacrifice
a Proctor Silex \$9.00 cheapo toaster.

>Granted, widening the slots further and further causes the geometry to
>go from parallel-point to something where the the full radiant power
>output of the coils is NOT used to toast the bread. For example,
>toaster ovens. There, the coils are 50 mm or more from the
>bread--unless pains are taken to remove the (usually greasy) rack and
>place it as high as it will go, which often is still more than 25 mm
>from the coils).
>
>Also with toaster ovens, the power budget (which is constrained to
>about 1400 watts in standard residential wiring setups) means a toaster
>oven uses its coil power in two large an area. In both the physical
>area of the toaster and the size of the coils.

Well, we're all making a potentially erroneous assumption here. We're
assuming that both the older narrow slot toasters, and today's wide
slot toasters, use the same amount of power. Yet there are apparently
some substantial differences in toasting times. If they use the same
amount of power and distance is allegedly non-critical, then the
cooking times would be expected to be fairly close.

>This can be seen just by looking at the _color_ of the coils: in a
>toaster the (up to 1400 watts) power produces bright yellow coils. A
>toaster oven has to heat the much larger (volume as well as area) coils
>for a longer time to reach a color that is rarely more than orange.

Perhaps I've led a sheltered life, but I've rarely found it necessary
to look inside an operating toaster. As I vaguely recall, the
nichrome wires never glow beyond bright red. I don't recall seeing
yellow or bright yellow. However, I might be wrong.

>Anyway, a modern toaster, even one equipped to handle those funny bagel
>things, will couple 'bright yellow" coils to bread very efficiently.
>Any parallel plate geometry will.
>
>--Tim May

The Toaster Museum:
<http://www.toaster.org/museumintro.html>

### Jeff Liebermann

Jun 17, 2008, 3:48:38 AM6/17/08
to
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:25:37 -0500, Steve Wertz
<swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote:

For once in my life, I ask a serious question, and this is what I get.
I guess I probably deserve it. Grumble...

>Propane torch. No need for a toaster that takes up precious room on
>the kitchen counter (I've seen your offices - I can imagine how
>little space you have left in your kitchen).

I live in a permanent state of clutter. Here's what's left of the
dining room (adjacent to the kitchen) when my fabulous carpentry
skills failed to keep the overloaded shelving attached to the wall.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/mess02.html>
Hmmm... It's not everyone that has a soldering station and a mess of
radio chargers on the dining room table. Anyway, it took me 2 weeks
to clean up the mess and repair the shelves.

I've never tried propane, but I've made oxy-acetylene burgers on a
grill while helping to build rose floats in the late 1960's.
Controlling the temperature was difficult. I usually ended up with
incinerated on the outside, raw on the inside. Still, it was better
than the food concession swill.

>You can even get one of those pocket sized creme brulee/crack pipe
>torches that will fit in the silverware drawer.

I have about 4 camping/hiking stoves. Somehow, I've never become
accustomed to gasoline flavored food. If they can't be used for
cooking, they'll suffice as a Molotov cocktail.

### Steve Pope

Jun 17, 2008, 3:58:32 AM6/17/08
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

><tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:

>>The physics works because the geometry is close to that of the infinite
>>plane solution in elecytrostatics: whether the bread is 2 mm from the
>>coils or 10 mm from the coils, the distance is short compared to either
>>the overall length and width. Thus, the parallel plate solution.

>Last time I checked, inverse square law still works inside a toaster.

Tim's right. Use a dimensionality argument. The infinite plane
radiator is described by a value of dimension power per unit
area. The heat flux at the surface of the toast is also described
by a value of dimension power per unit area. There is nowhere
to get an extra dimension of distance (or distance squared) into the
expression for the flux. So it must be independent of distance.

Whereas a point radiator is described by a value of dimension
power, and since the flux at the toast surface has dimension power
per area, in that case it must depend on distance squared.

Steve

### Tim May

Jun 17, 2008, 2:19:38 PM6/17/08
to
In article <9sne54dc3c6ome9mn...@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:42:22 -0700, Tim May
> <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:

> >The physics works because the geometry is close to that of the infinite
> >plane solution in elecytrostatics: whether the bread is 2 mm from the
> >coils or 10 mm from the coils, the distance is short compared to either
> >the overall length and width. Thus, the parallel plate solution.
>
> Sounds good, but I'm suspicious. All styles of toaster have a
> mechanism that centers the bread in the slot, to be equal distant
> between the heating coils. See:
> <http://home.howstuffworks.com/toaster2.htm>
> If the toast were not centered, one side would be carbonized, while
> the other side would remain untoasted.
>
> Last time I checked, inverse square law still works inside a toaster.

Not in the parallel plate geometry. Constant field strength. Straight
lines. Check Gauss's Theorem.

This applies in both electrostatics, as in parallel plate capacitors,
or in heat flow equations, as in two surfaces in proximity. In this
case, one surface is the toast, the other is the set of coils facing
it.

The inverse square relation holds for distances away from small
sources, hence the simplification to "point sources." (Actually, it
_always_ holds, but in the case of parallel plates, the "integration
over all solid angles" exactly cancels out the inverse square factor. A
standard solid geometry problem, related to what we have argued about
on Usenet before about, why there are no electric fields inside closed
metal boxes.

(This has great practical significance. In electrostatics and in heat
flow work, the parallel plate geometry is a common situation. It even
came up in the 1970s when I was calculating the flux of radiation seen
by a chip from a ceramic or metal package lid above the chip. The
standard parallel plate geometry--flux at the lid equals flux at the
chip.)

Put yet another way, if standing before a very hot wall--say, orange in
color--the color and the brightness do not change as one walks toward
it.

> A few measurements with an IR optical thermometer on narrow or wide
> toast, should be sufficient to determine if the distance is really
> irrelevant.

I have a RayTek unit in my kitchen, to check temperatures of pans and
ovens. However, looking at the coils from the point of view of the
toast is difficult, for obvious reasons. In any case, the pyrometer is
only accurate in integrating the overall temperature within its viewing
cone.

> It probably doesn't have enough dynamic range to measure
> the red hot wires, but can probably measure the temperature of the
> toast, case, air, and vicinity.

To what end? The toast temp. will drop extremely fast once removed from
the toaster. The case temp. of the toaster is utterly irrelevant. And
pyrometer have very poor ability to measure temp., for obvious (to me)
reasons.

Again, you need to go back to the basic physics. And if you want to see
the actual difference between coil toasters, use your eyes. Orange vs.
yellow is more meaningful than crap about measuring the case
temperature of a toaster, or the temperature of a piece of bread which
is rapidly cooling. Jeez.

> Well, we're all making a potentially erroneous assumption here. We're
> assuming that both the older narrow slot toasters, and today's wide
> slot toasters, use the same amount of power. Yet there are apparently
> some substantial differences in toasting times. If they use the same
> amount of power and distance is allegedly non-critical, then the
> cooking times would be expected to be fairly close.

I made no such erroneous assumption. I picked my current toaster based
on it being an 1100-watt model, pretty close to the approx 1400-watt
max that household sockets are good for.

Yes, older toasters were often 800 watts or less. Your point?

> >This can be seen just by looking at the _color_ of the coils: in a
> >toaster the (up to 1400 watts) power produces bright yellow coils. A
> >toaster oven has to heat the much larger (volume as well as area) coils
> >for a longer time to reach a color that is rarely more than orange.
>
> Perhaps I've led a sheltered life, but I've rarely found it necessary
> to look inside an operating toaster. As I vaguely recall, the
> nichrome wires never glow beyond bright red. I don't recall seeing
> yellow or bright yellow. However, I might be wrong.

You're the one claiming wider slots means lower toasting speed. Untrue,
for the reasons I stated.

Find your friend a toaster with 1100 or more watts, in two slots, and I
guarantee it will toast rapidly. Even with a relatively wide spacing,
the surface of the toast will "see" a "sky" of uniform "brightness."

(This is a way to gain intuition into how parallel plate geometries
work in electrostatics, heat flow equations, etc. The formal way to
look at it is to integrate the power density from all angles. It gives
this result.)

--Tim May

### spamtr...@gmail.com

Jun 17, 2008, 2:47:26 PM6/17/08
to
On Jun 17, 11:19 am, Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> In article <9sne54dc3c6ome9mnhv4c0i0026sp07...@4ax.com>, Jeff

>
>
>
> Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:42:22 -0700, Tim May
> > <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> > >The physics works because the geometry is close to that of the infinite
> > >plane solution in elecytrostatics: whether the bread is 2 mm from the
> > >coils or 10 mm from the coils, the distance is short compared to either
> > >the overall length and width. Thus, the parallel plate solution.
>
> > Sounds good, but I'm suspicious. All styles of toaster have a
> > mechanism that centers the bread in the slot, to be equal distant
> > between the heating coils. See:
> > <http://home.howstuffworks.com/toaster2.htm>
> > If the toast were not centered, one side would be carbonized, while
> > the other side would remain untoasted.
>
> > Last time I checked, inverse square law still works inside a toaster.
>
> Not in the parallel plate geometry. Constant field strength. Straight
> lines. Check Gauss's Theorem.
>
> This applies in both electrostatics, as in parallel plate capacitors,
> or in heat flow equations, as in two surfaces in proximity. In this
> case, one surface is the toast, the other is the set of coils facing
> it.

I was surprised that conductive heat transfer (through the air) could
be neglected, but apparently this is a common assumption in toaster
analysis. Only if through-the-air transfer were significant would
toaster slot size matter (convective heat transfer (to the outside) is
a source of heat loss.)

### Steve Pope

Jun 17, 2008, 2:53:43 PM6/17/08
to
<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I was surprised that conductive heat transfer (through the air) could
>be neglected, but apparently this is a common assumption in toaster
>analysis.

Pretty much true when analyzing cooking. Radiation, convection,
and conduction through good conductors (e.g. a metal pan) count.
Conduction through air does not count. Still air does not
transfer appreciable heat -- this is why wall insulation works,
its function is to stop air movement within the wall spaces.

S.

### Tim May

Jun 17, 2008, 4:18:02 PM6/17/08
to
In article
<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

(I haven't looked at this site or any others for my analysis, which is
based on the physics of the situation.)

Being able to neglect the air component is easy to see the
justification for:

1. Air is very weakly absorbtive of radiant energy. This can be seen in
the miles of air that sunlight goes through. While there is some
absorbtion in the air, the amount per unit length in air is very small.

(Can be seen by feeling the radiant warmth of the sun at a window, then
backing away, while still being in the rays of the sun. No change.)

2. Even if absorbed, air has very low heat capacity.

(ObFood: This is why the old chestnut about "Don't leave the
refrigerator door open--you'll let the cold air out!" is false. Yes,
the cold air will pour out, and relatively quickly (probably in 10
seconds or less, but I haven't done the calculation). However, the
specific heat, and the mass per unit volume, of air is more than three
orders of magnitude less than that of water, let alone that of the
steel and aluminum and whatnot in the racks, walls, etc. Meaning, a
single can of beer has more "total coldness" in it than all of the air
in a typical refrigerator. So, leave the door open as long as it takes
to find an item without fear of causing global warming.)

BTW, convection ovens _do_ work, but they work over a long period of
time.

--Tim May

### Keith Keller

Jun 17, 2008, 4:47:28 PM6/17/08
to
On 2008-06-17, Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
> (ObFood: This is why the old chestnut about "Don't leave the
> refrigerator door open--you'll let the cold air out!" is false. Yes,
> the cold air will pour out, and relatively quickly (probably in 10
> seconds or less, but I haven't done the calculation). However, the
> specific heat, and the mass per unit volume, of air is more than three
> orders of magnitude less than that of water, let alone that of the
> steel and aluminum and whatnot in the racks, walls, etc. Meaning, a
> single can of beer has more "total coldness" in it than all of the air
> in a typical refrigerator. So, leave the door open as long as it takes
> to find an item without fear of causing global warming.)

The old chestnut applies when your kid is using the refrigerator as a
television substitute, sitting in front of it for minutes at a time not
really looking for anything, which is clearly wasteful even if it won't
raise the global temperature by 20 degrees.

--keith

--
kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

### Michael Sierchio

Jun 17, 2008, 5:44:14 PM6/17/08
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Last time I checked, inverse square law still works inside a toaster.

Not applicable -- inverse square works for point/spherical radiators.

- M

### Tim May

Jun 17, 2008, 5:59:14 PM6/17/08
to
In article <0gkli5x...@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>, Keith
Keller <kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> wrote:

> On 2008-06-17, Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> >
> > (ObFood: This is why the old chestnut about "Don't leave the
> > refrigerator door open--you'll let the cold air out!" is false. Yes,
> > the cold air will pour out, and relatively quickly (probably in 10
> > seconds or less, but I haven't done the calculation). However, the
> > specific heat, and the mass per unit volume, of air is more than three
> > orders of magnitude less than that of water, let alone that of the
> > steel and aluminum and whatnot in the racks, walls, etc. Meaning, a
> > single can of beer has more "total coldness" in it than all of the air
> > in a typical refrigerator. So, leave the door open as long as it takes
> > to find an item without fear of causing global warming.)
>
> The old chestnut applies when your kid is using the refrigerator as a
> television substitute, sitting in front of it for minutes at a time not
> really looking for anything, which is clearly wasteful even if it won't
> raise the global temperature by 20 degrees.

I wasn't referring to retarded kids, but to kids who get this warning
even when they are spending more time than the bare minimum needed to
think of where an object is in advance and then get it. And I was
getting this from my mother at her house as recently as the 90s;
explaining to her the actual physics of the situation was not going to
be productive, so I just got on with things.

The old chestnut has some actual victims, though. A couple of the
refrigerator vendors have offered even further-yuppified refrigerators
with glass fronts. These are touted--including by at least one Food
Network "food scientist" who ought to know better--as allowing one to
carefully locate where items are before the door is opened, to reduce
the loss of precous cold air.

These Uberfridges costs even more thousands of dollars more. Bought by
DINCS (Dual Income, No Common Sense).

--Tim May

### Steve Pope

Jun 17, 2008, 6:01:49 PM6/17/08
to
Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:

>The old chestnut has some actual victims, though. A couple of the
>refrigerator vendors have offered even further-yuppified refrigerators
>with glass fronts. These are touted--including by at least one Food
>Network "food scientist" who ought to know better--as allowing one to
>carefully locate where items are before the door is opened, to reduce
>the loss of precous cold air.

I'm sure any savings is swamped by the fact that individuals would
feel compelled to clean their refrigerators far more often
with a transparent door.

Steve

### Gavin Scott

Jun 17, 2008, 6:46:45 PM6/17/08
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> For once in my life, I ask a serious question, and this is what I get.
> I guess I probably deserve it. Grumble...

As far as I can tell, basically all toasters are crap these days.
Even the most expensive seem poorly constructed from what I've seen.

We currently have a Cuisinart model which has a tubular ceramic
heating element on each side backed by a semi-parabolic reflector.
It's motorized, so you drop the bread in and press a button and
the bread is lowered inside and at the same time the two heating
element / reflector housing things inside move together to press
against the bread, so the distance to the heating element is the
same regardless of the bread thickness.

Kinda high tech and all, but it still takes 2.5 minutes to toast
a slice of bread, just like most others. It also doesn't seem
to be available any more (google suggests the model is CPT-50).

G.

### Karen

Jun 17, 2008, 7:12:30 PM6/17/08
to
On Jun 17, 3:46 pm, ga...@allegro.com (Gavin Scott) wrote:
> As far as I can tell, basically all toasters are crap these days.
> Even the most expensive seem poorly constructed from what I've seen.
>
> We currently have a Cuisinart model which has a tubular ceramic
> heating element on each side backed by a semi-parabolic reflector.
> It's motorized, so you drop the bread in and press a button and
> the bread is lowered inside and at the same time the two heating
> element / reflector housing things inside move together to press
> against the bread, so the distance to the heating element is the
> same regardless of the bread thickness.

Are you sure the heating element moves? I think the heating element
product and keeps it from leaning from one side or to the other.

Karen

### Keith Keller

Jun 17, 2008, 7:37:57 PM6/17/08
to
On 2008-06-17, Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
> I wasn't referring to retarded kids, but to kids who get this warning
> even when they are spending more time than the bare minimum needed to
> think of where an object is in advance and then get it.

You must not have kids. My preschooler loves spending as much time as
he can looking in the fridge. If we didn't tell him to close it he'd be
there for a good ten minutes.

> The old chestnut has some actual victims, though. A couple of the
> refrigerator vendors have offered even further-yuppified refrigerators
> with glass fronts.

[...]

> These Uberfridges costs even more thousands of dollars more. Bought by
> DINCS (Dual Income, No Common Sense).

No kids, either, or they'd realize their kids would break the glass
within a week.

### Steve Pope

Jun 17, 2008, 7:46:11 PM6/17/08
to
>You must not have kids. My preschooler loves spending as much time as
>he can looking in the fridge. If we didn't tell him to close it he'd be
>there for a good ten minutes.

I once had a roomate who did that. She was a certified
schizophrenic.

Steve

### rone

Jun 17, 2008, 8:37:59 PM6/17/08
to
In article <160620081042224677%tim...@removethis.got.net>,

Tim May <tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>Most toasters, as you note, now have wider slots. To cater to both
>thicker pieces of bread, buns, and even things the Jews like to eat.

rone
--
"If any man is not free, then I, too, am a small pie made of chicken."
-- Bouffant, /Thoughts/ (Terry Pratchett)

### Keith Keller

Jun 17, 2008, 11:06:09 PM6/17/08
to

*sigh* Somehow, it would not surprise me all that much if my son turned
out that way too. ;-/

### spamtr...@gmail.com

Jun 17, 2008, 11:44:09 PM6/17/08
to
On Jun 17, 5:37 pm, "rone" <^*...@ennui.org> wrote:
> In article <160620081042224677%timc...@removethis.got.net>,

> Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
> >Most toasters, as you note, now have wider slots. To cater to both
> >thicker pieces of bread, buns, and even things the Jews like to eat.
>
>
> rone

I pictured Tim's mom hanging out in Mollie Stone's with an
anticipatory smile.

### spamtr...@gmail.com

Jun 17, 2008, 11:46:21 PM6/17/08
to
On Jun 17, 3:46 pm, ga...@allegro.com (Gavin Scott) wrote:

> We currently have a Cuisinart model which has a tubular ceramic
> heating element on each side backed by a semi-parabolic reflector.

> Kinda high tech and all, but it still takes 2.5 minutes to toast

> a slice of bread, just like most others. It also doesn't seem
> to be available any more (google suggests the model is CPT-50).

That's a classic model -- friends of mine broke one of the elements on
theirs and had to junk it.

### Geoff Miller

Jun 18, 2008, 12:13:50 AM6/18/08
to

Keith Keller <kkeller...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> writes:

[Tim: glass-fronted Uberfridges]

> No kids, either, or they'd realize their kids would break the
> glass within a week.

I'm of a generation who as kids were taught not to "roughhouse"
(as it was called in those days) in the vicinity of things that
were breakable and expensive -- on (literal) pain of an ancient,
little-known cultural artifact known as a <ghasp> "spanking."

Geoff

--
"...the impertinent and ridiculous spitting gristle
of carnal congress." -- AA Gill

### Mark Lipton

Jun 18, 2008, 1:06:16 AM6/18/08
to
Steve Pope wrote:

> Conduction through air does not count. Still air does not
> transfer appreciable heat -- this is why wall insulation works,
> its function is to stop air movement within the wall spaces.

Which is why we can put our bare forearms into a 450 F oven and not get
instantaneous burns. Specific heat capacity is a wonderfully
underappreciated concept, though most people do seem to empirically
understand that the fabric seat in a car on a hot day is OK to sit on,
but the metal seat belt buckle should be approached with care.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

### evergene

Jun 18, 2008, 1:24:18 AM6/18/08
to
Gavin Scott wrote:

>As far as I can tell, basically all toasters are crap these days.
>Even the most expensive seem poorly constructed from what I've seen.

A few years ago Copia in Napa hosted a "history of toasters" show,
with several rooms of ancient and modern toasters on display. Some of
those old toasters looked like they drew enough power to dim lights
all over the city. The Copia website is toaster-free at the moment,
but here's a link to the Toaster Museum:
http://www.toaster.org/museum.html
(The links at this site seem to work in a strange way. It appears (to
me, after half a bottle of Stony Hill 2006 White Riesling) that to
move through the decades of toaster history, you have to go back to
the main page and click on the links at the bottom. Then, once you
land on a specific period, e.g. 1920-1940, there are multiple Web
pages within that period.)

### Karen

Jun 18, 2008, 2:07:11 AM6/18/08
to
On Jun 17, 10:24 pm, evergene <enegr...@yugswen.moc> wrote:
> A few years ago Copia in Napa hosted a "history of toasters" show,
> with several rooms of ancient and modern toasters on display. Some of
> those old toasters looked like they drew enough power to dim lights
> all over the city. The Copia website is toaster-free at the moment,
> but here's a link to the Toaster Museum:http://www.toaster.org/museum.html
> (The links at this site seem to work in a strange way. It appears (to
> me, after half a bottle of Stony Hill 2006 White Riesling) that to
> move through the decades of toaster history, you have to go back to
> the main page and click on the links at the bottom. Then, once you
> land on a specific period, e.g. 1920-1940, there are multiple Web
> pages within that period.)

neat! We still use the 1915 Pincher at our summer cottage in North
Dakota. It still works great.

Karen

### Ciccio

Jun 18, 2008, 11:27:25 AM6/18/08
to
On Jun 17, 9:13 pm, geo...@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:

> I'm of a generation who as kids were taught not to "roughhouse"
> (as it was called in those days) in the vicinity of things that
> were breakable and expensive -- on (literal) pain of an ancient,
> little-known cultural artifact known as a <ghasp> "spanking."

I never <ghasp> upon witnessing parents spanking their children.
Rather, I take them to be parents of low intellect or laziness, or
both, that they are unable to establish authority and effect
compliance from children without the use of physical force. Often
times, it's also a sign that the kids are on the parents' "pay no
mind" list, until the kids misbehave. So long, however, as parents do
it in private, so I'm not disturbed by a screeching kid, and they
don't abuse the kids, it's none of my beeswax...

Ciccio

### James Silverton

Jun 16, 2008, 1:40:05 PM6/16/08
to
Jeff wrote on Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:21:17 -0700:

> Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and
> NOT toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots
> designed to fit bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency
> of these toasters are rather poor when toasting thin sliced
> bread. That's because the heating elements are located
> perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It takes perhaps 5 minutes
> to toast a piece of bread, when it could be done in less than
> a minute. Any pointers?

My toaster won't toast an unsliced bagel but, if you like toasted
bagels, who toasts them unsliced? I sometimes heat up frozen bagels in
the oven. If I put them in a cold oven, they are fine and crispy when
the oven reaches 350F. This has the extra advantage that my oven beeps
when the temperature is reached and only takes a few minutes.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

### James Silverton

Jun 19, 2008, 7:51:25 AM6/19/08
to
James wrote to Jeff Liebermann on Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:40:05 -0400:

>> Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread
>> and NOT toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide
>> slots designed to fit bagels. Much as I like bagels, the
>> efficiency of these toasters are rather poor when toasting
>> thin sliced bread. That's because the heating elements are
>> located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It takes perhaps 5
>> minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be done in
>> less than a minute. Any pointers?

> My toaster won't toast an unsliced bagel but, if you like
> toasted bagels, who toasts them unsliced? I sometimes heat up frozen
> bagels in the oven. If I put them in a cold oven, they are fine and
> crispy when the oven reaches 350F. This has the
> extra advantage that my oven beeps when the temperature is
> reached and only takes a few minutes.

The content does not matter all that much but please note the date. I
had thought that this post had disappeared into the black hole at
teranews.

### christoph...@gmail.com

Aug 9, 2017, 3:17:53 PM8/9/17
to
On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 1:42:22 PM UTC-4, Tim May wrote:
> In article <428d54lrpgldeu2ov...@4ax.com>, Jeff
> Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> > Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> > toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> > bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
> > rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread. That's because the
> > heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It
> > takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
> > done in less than a minute. Any pointers?
>
> Most toasters, as you note, now have wider slots. To cater to both
> thicker pieces of bread, buns, and even things the Jews like to eat.
>
> Fortunately, the physics is on the side of wider slots. Go ahead, test
> it out, as I have done. (My Cuisinart wide slot toaster does individual
> slices of normal bread very, very quickly, faster than my old
> narrow-slot toaster did.)
>
> The physics works because the geometry is close to that of the infinite
> plane solution in elecytrostatics: whether the bread is 2 mm from the
> coils or 10 mm from the coils, the distance is short compared to either
> the overall length and width. Thus, the parallel plate solution.
>
> Put another way, essentially _all_ of the radiant energy (the dominant
> means of heating in toasters, as opposed to ovens) is coupled into the
> bread surface. (The heating of the air space in the toaster is an issue
> to consider, but is minuscule in both narrow and wide gap toasters,
> both because of the low infrared absorbtion of air and the low thermal
> mass of air. And as much "heated air" rises out of a narrow-slot
> toaster as with a wide-slot toaster, to first order.)
>
> Granted, widening the slots further and further causes the geometry to
> go from parallel-point to something where the the full radiant power
> output of the coils is NOT used to toast the bread. For example,
> toaster ovens. There, the coils are 50 mm or more from the
> bread--unless pains are taken to remove the (usually greasy) rack and
> place it as high as it will go, which often is still more than 25 mm
> from the coils).
>
> Also with toaster ovens, the power budget (which is constrained to
> about 1400 watts in standard residential wiring setups) means a toaster
> oven uses its coil power in two large an area. In both the physical
> area of the toaster and the size of the coils.
>
> This can be seen just by looking at the _color_ of the coils: in a
> toaster the (up to 1400 watts) power produces bright yellow coils. A
> toaster oven has to heat the much larger (volume as well as area) coils
> for a longer time to reach a color that is rarely more than orange.
>
> Anyway, a modern toaster, even one equipped to handle those funny bagel
> things, will couple 'bright yellow" coils to bread very efficiently.
> Any parallel plate geometry will.
>
> --Tim May

That's crap. Parallel Plate Geometry may work on paper, but NOT on toast. I have a narrow slot toaster that toasts thin bread at least 30% faster than a higher wattage wide slot toaster. Both toasters are brand new. To answer the previous person's question, Amazon sells a narrow slot toaster made by "Innolife". Very efficient. Uses only 650 watts and toasts bread golden brown in about 90 seconds. I have tried MANY wide slot toasters and none come even close. Look for the: InnoLife TA8149-V. It's currently \$15 and worth every penny!

### christoph...@gmail.com

Aug 9, 2017, 3:21:50 PM8/9/17
to
On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 1:21:17 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
> rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread. That's because the
> heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It
> takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
> done in less than a minute. Any pointers?
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

InnoLife TA8149-V bread toaster available at Amazon for \$15. You'll love it!

### Julian Macassey

Aug 10, 2017, 12:22:00 AM8/10/17
to
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 12:17:52 -0700 (PDT), christoph...@gmail.com
<christoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That's crap. Parallel Plate Geometry may work on paper, but NOT on
> toast. I have a narrow slot toaster that toasts thin bread at least 30%
> faster than a higher wattage wide slot toaster. Both toasters are brand
> new. To answer the previous person's question, Amazon sells a narrow
> slot toaster made by "Innolife". Very efficient. Uses only 650 watts
> and toasts bread golden brown in about 90 seconds. I have tried MANY
> wide slot toasters and none come even close. Look for the: InnoLife
> TA8149-V. It's currently \$15 and worth every penny!

The question for the current era is "How does it does gluten free

--
Curiosity is one of the most permanent and certain characteristics of
a vigorous intellect. - Samuel Johnson

### jackkel...@gmail.com

Sep 4, 2017, 9:24:53 AM9/4/17
to
Funny, I love social media. I am looking forward to my sliced bread toaster \$15 InnoLife TA8149-V. Free shipping, no taxes.

### rkr...@gmail.com

Mar 22, 2018, 10:57:55 AM3/22/18
to
On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 10:42:22 AM UTC-7, Tim May wrote:
> In article <428d54lrpgldeu2ov...@4ax.com>, Jeff
> Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> > Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> > toast bagels? The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> > bagels. Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
> > rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread. That's because the
> > heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread. It
> > takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
> > done in less than a minute. Any pointers?
>
thats a lot of blather to just repeat what the OP stated

### hunter.ph...@gmail.com

Dec 11, 2018, 10:09:26 AM12/11/18
to
On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 7:58:34 PM UTC-4, Karen wrote:
> On Jun 16, 10:21 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > Duz anyone know of a toaster that only toasts sliced bread and NOT
> > toast bagels?  The new toasters all have wide slots designed to fit
> > bagels.  Much as I like bagels, the efficiency of these toasters are
> > rather poor when toasting thin sliced bread.  That's because the
> > heating elements are located perhaps 1/2" away from the bread.  It
> > takes perhaps 5 minutes to toast a piece of bread, when it could be
> > done in less than a minute.  Any pointers?
>
> I just got a new toaster, and the slots are wider to accommodate
> bagels, etc., but it still toasts plain toast a lot faster than my old
> toaster, and bagels and English muffins got stuck in that one because
> the slots were too narrow.
>
> I don't think you can find a narrow slotted toaster, anymore.
>
> Karen

And that is the shame of it because Toast from a narrow toaster tastes and toasts better. The wider slots make it come out like melba toast and too much of the interior of the slice is dry.

### Julian Macassey

Dec 11, 2018, 10:43:53 AM12/11/18
to
On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:09:25 -0800 (PST), hunter.ph...@gmail.com <hunter.ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 7:58:34 PM UTC-4, Karen wrote:
>> On Jun 16, 10:21 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
snippo
> And that is the shame of it because Toast from a narrow toaster tastes and toasts better. The wider slots make it come out like melba toast and too much of the interior of the slice is dry.

Two more things you can love about the goggle monster
destruction of the net:

People responding to ten year old posts. No word wrap.
Good job goggle, making the world shittier every day.

--
"If you go home with somebody and they don’t have books, don’t
fuck them.” - John Waters, film director

### sms

Dec 11, 2018, 11:05:18 AM12/11/18
to
There are vintage toasters available but they are very expensive.
<https://toastercentral.com/toaster30s.htm>. Estate sales, garage sales,
and thrift shops might be a better option, but more of a time sink.

Remember: "If you find something you really, really like, buy a lifetime
supply; because it'll either be changed for the worse or go out of
production." Quote from Rivendell Bicycle's Web Site

### Todd Michel McComb

Dec 11, 2018, 1:12:52 PM12/11/18
to
In article <puon7t\$eg2\$1...@dont-email.me>,
sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>supply; because it'll either be changed for the worse or go out
>of production."

That hasn't actually been passed into law yet, has it? Maybe there's
still hope.

(Of course, the big tech companies can now change their products
for the worse on the fly, after you already have it.... So there's
that. Maybe they can develop SmartFood that turns disgusting after
you eat it....)

### Ciccio

Dec 11, 2018, 4:47:15 PM12/11/18
to
On 12/11/2018 7:43 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:09:25 -0800 (PST), hunter.ph...@gmail.com <hunter.ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 7:58:34 PM UTC-4, Karen wrote:
>>> On Jun 16, 10:21 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> snippo
>> And that is the shame of it because Toast from a narrow toaster tastes and toasts better. The wider slots make it come out like melba toast and too much of the interior of the slice is dry.
>
> Two more things you can love about the goggle monster
> destruction of the net:
>
> People responding to ten year old posts. No word wrap.
> Good job goggle, making the world shittier every day.

Hell, I haven't had even one bagel during the past 10 years, though I
have had some bialys during that time. My preferred morning pastries are
sour dough toast or English muffins, which I suppose is why I go for
bialys when I have a rare bagel shop visit, as they're more akin to such
than are bagels.

Ciccio

--
"If your mother cooks Italian food,
why should you go to a restaurant?"
- Martin Scorsese.
- My dad saying to me.

### Eddie Grove

Dec 11, 2018, 7:34:05 PM12/11/18
to
Ciccio <franc...@comcast.net> writes:

> On 12/11/2018 7:43 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:09:25 -0800 (PST), hunter.ph...@gmail.com <hunter.ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 16, 2008 at 7:58:34 PM UTC-4, Karen wrote:
>>>> On Jun 16, 10:21 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> snippo
>>> And that is the shame of it because Toast from a narrow toaster tastes and toasts better. The wider slots make it come out like melba toast and too much of the interior of the slice is dry.
>>
>> Two more things you can love about the goggle monster
>> destruction of the net:
>>
>> People responding to ten year old posts. No word wrap.
>> Good job goggle, making the world shittier every day.
>
> Hell, I haven't had even one bagel during the past 10 years, though I
> have had some bialys during that time. My preferred morning pastries
> are sour dough toast or English muffins, which I suppose is why I go
> for bialys when I have a rare bagel shop visit, as they're more akin
> to such than are bagels.
>
> Ciccio

Where do you find bialys? What's your preferred source?

Eddie

### Ciccio

Dec 12, 2018, 5:05:42 PM12/12/18
to
I only have one or two per year, if that. When with somebody who wants
to go to a bagel shop, I have a bialy instead of a bagel. 90% of the
time bialys are available. Thus, I really don't have a preferred source.
I do seem to recollect, however, some years ago there were no bialys at
a Noah's Bagels.

### gary.b...@mailinator.com

Dec 12, 2018, 5:53:34 PM12/12/18
to
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 2:05:42 PM UTC-8, Ciccio wrote:
>[...]
> I do seem to recollect, however, some years ago there were no bialys at
> a Noah's Bagels.

Neither are there bagels.

-Gary

### Ciccio

Dec 13, 2018, 7:00:22 PM12/13/18
to
Actually, I don't remember what it is I had there, it was so long ago.
That said, being familiar with your bagel bona fides, your bagel opinion
deserves, at the very least, due regard.

### gene....@gmail.com

May 24, 2019, 1:58:59 PM5/24/19
to
Jeff, I thought I was alone in the world of toasters that no longer toast bread slices. I explain the problem to friends and even manufacturers of toasters getting only a blank stare.
Here is why...When the sice is so far from the element it is baking not toasting. You hit it on how much longer the wide toaster takes. While in the toaster so long baking.. it is drying the toast out.

Gene Grode
San Clemente, CA
gene....@gmail.com

### Barbara Portwood

Feb 2, 2021, 6:08:25 PMFeb 2
to
Regardless of how much physics theory is brought into the matter, please try this one real-life experiment: Toast a regular slice of bread in
a wide-slot toaster. Remove the toasted slice, and observe the color of the toasted surface. You will notice a marked gradient in color,
paler on the bottom and browner on the top. It will look the same on both sides. Regardless of the theoretical result, heat travels up through
the top of the toaster slot and fails to complete the task of "toasting" uniformly as a result.

### sms

Feb 2, 2021, 6:39:54 PMFeb 2
to
There are commercial toasters with narrow slots, but I don't think
you'll find any new consumer grade toasters with narrow slots.

<https://www.restaurantsupply.com/toastmaster-tp209-2-slice-commercial-pop-up-toaster-120v-1100w>

### Julian Macassey

Feb 2, 2021, 7:42:30 PMFeb 2
to
Toasters used to toast evenly, they also used to last
longer. Today they are mostly crap. Inconsistent timers, elements
poorly placed etc.

A good toaster is not cheap but will outlast all the
cheap toasters bought serially to replace the shitty toasters.

Note: A Toaster purchased in the 1940s cost \$23.50, in the
1990s I paid \$10 for a toaster at Wal*Mart. It wouldn't brown
bread, the timer was too short. I spent two hours tearing it
appart and swapping resistors so it would be on long enough to
make toast.

https://www.toastercentral.com/toaster40s.htm

--
"If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you

### Julian Macassey

Feb 2, 2021, 7:49:16 PMFeb 2
to
On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 15:39:52 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> There are commercial toasters with narrow slots, but I don't think
> you'll find any new consumer grade toasters with narrow slots.
>
><https://www.restaurantsupply.com/toastmaster-tp209-2-slice-commercial-pop-up-toaster-120v-1100w>

Note this is a toaster designed to make toast and keep
making toast.

It costs \$532.40m but it does what it says on the tin.

### sms

Feb 2, 2021, 9:02:06 PMFeb 2
to
On 2/2/2021 4:49 PM, Julian Macassey wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 15:39:52 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> There are commercial toasters with narrow slots, but I don't think
>> you'll find any new consumer grade toasters with narrow slots.
>>
>> <https://www.restaurantsupply.com/toastmaster-tp209-2-slice-commercial-pop-up-toaster-120v-1100w>
>
> Note this is a toaster designed to make toast and keep
> making toast.
>
> It costs \$532.40m but it does what it says on the tin.

It's still wider than the narrow old toasters. I think it's 1.125" wide
while older toasters were 0.9375".

In 1978 I was driving across the country and stopped in a small town in
Utah for breakfast. The big event was the the diner had just gotten a
new commercial toaster. All the regulars were going back in the kitchen
to look at it. It was a two slice toaster, but designed for continuous use.