"No Deli for You" Last Jewish Deli in South Florida closes. Anyone tried East Coast West Deli in SF?
SMS
Florida went out of business yesterday. Even the publicity from Obama's
visit during the campaign wasn't enough to save it.
Has anyone tried the deli on Polk in San Francisco, East Coast West? The
menu looks good, but it could be as bad as David's.
spamtrap1888
> Just got a sad call from my brother, the last Jewish deli in South
> Florida went out of business yesterday. Even the publicity from Obama's
> visit during the campaign wasn't enough to save it.
>
>
> Has anyone tried the deli on Polk in San Francisco, East Coast West? The
> menu looks good, but it could be as bad as David's.
I haven't been there for a while, but the corned beef or pastrami on
rye were fine, since they opened their doors. The name has changed in
the meantime.
David's has never been good -- never being defined as since 1980.
Gary Brainin
> Florida went out of business yesterday. Even the publicity from Obama's
> visit during the campaign wasn't enough to save it.
>
A shanda, I'm sure, but they are hardly the last deli in that
area. OTOH, I was saddened to hear that Wolfie's is gone.
-Gary
Al Eisner
This has come up a number of times -- check the archives. So far as I
know, it remains the one reasonably authentic such place in the Bay Area.
The main thing is that they largely use correct ingredients. It's not
quite as good as the best LA places (also, they do not pile on the meat
the way those places do, although some may consider that a plus), but
quite worthwhile. Parking can be a problem.
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA
Al Eisner
> Just got a sad call from my brother, the last Jewish deli in South Florida
> went out of business yesterday. Even the publicity from Obama's visit during
> the campaign wasn't enough to save it.
>
> "http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-03-15/news/fl-delis-mayocol-b031510-20100315_1_deli-den-vered-emano-delis-in-south-florida"
I don't think the article quite says what you write in your title. Also,
all the places it lists were the big fancy deli-type restaurants. Miami
Beach also used to have small negihborhood places, such as one fins in
NY. I'm sure there's still a clientele for those, so I'd be surprised
if they are gone, although I have no specific information.
SMS
There's one smaller place that I'm aware of,
"http://www.sagebagelanddeli.com/sage_deli_menu.html" but that's about
it. It's owned by one of my childhood friend's wife's family.
Miami Beach has totally changed. It's not full of Jewish retirees from
the northeast anymore. South Beach used to have hundreds of small
residential hotels with retired Jews, now all those hotels have become
trendy boutique hotels and the tourists going to Miami Beach these days
are not interested in corned beef sandwiches and the like. That's why
the most famous of the deli restaurants, Rascal House, could not even
continue. North Miami, where Wolfie's and Corky's were located used to
be Jewish areas, now they are Cuban and black areas.
It's really hard for these types of restaurants to survive anymore. You
need a dense population of people that like to eat that sort of food
often, The Deli Den suffered from the Jewish population moving too far
away to be regular customers (ironically there's a large Orthodox Jewish
community that is very close to where the Deli Den was, but since it was
not Kosher they would not eat there).
Al Eisner
> Miami Beach has totally changed. It's not full of Jewish retirees from the
> northeast anymore. South Beach used to have hundreds of small residential
> hotels with retired Jews, now all those hotels have become trendy boutique
> hotels and the tourists going to Miami Beach these days are not interested in
> corned beef sandwiches and the like. That's why the most famous of the deli
> restaurants, Rascal House, could not even continue. North Miami, where
> Wolfie's and Corky's were located used to be Jewish areas, now they are Cuban
> and black areas.
Thanks. I haven't been in that area for many years. There were also large
apartment complexes near South Beach with similar makeup, not just residential
hotels -- places unlikely to become trendy, but they could change in other
ways.
> It's really hard for these types of restaurants to survive anymore. You need
> a dense population of people that like to eat that sort of food often, The
> Deli Den suffered from the Jewish population moving too far away to be
> regular customers (ironically there's a large Orthodox Jewish community that
> is very close to where the Deli Den was, but since it was not Kosher they
> would not eat there).
Too bad. We in ba.food of course know that one doesn't have to be X to
appreciate X food.
sf
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> The main thing is that they largely use correct ingredients. It's not
> quite as good as the best LA places (also, they do not pile on the meat
> the way those places do, although some may consider that a plus), but
> quite worthwhile. Parking can be a problem.
Even the best places in LA don't pile it on the way Katz's in NYC
does. I can eat a whole sandwich there, but have to share a Katz.
--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
sf
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Too bad. We in ba.food of course know that one doesn't have to be X to
> appreciate X food.
We'd probably have a different attitude if we kept kosher.
Al Eisner
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:19:03 -0700, Al Eisner
> <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> Too bad. We in ba.food of course know that one doesn't have to be X to
>> appreciate X food.
>
> We'd probably have a different attitude if we kept kosher.
But those who do are a minute fraction of the population. They are not
who I was referring to, rather all the other non-Jewish people in that
area. By the way, these may be particularly bad times in the Miami area --
a story I saaw today puts them way ahead of any other metro area in the
US in terms of foreclosures and mortgage problems.
Gary Brainin
> Al Eisner wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Mar 2010, SMS wrote:
>
> >> Just got a sad call from my brother, the last Jewish deli in South
> >> Florida went out of business yesterday. Even the publicity from
> >> Obama's visit during the campaign wasn't enough to save it.
>
>
> > I don't think the article quite says what you write in your title. Also,
> > all the places it lists were the big fancy deli-type restaurants. Miami
> > Beach also used to have small negihborhood places, such as one fins in
> > NY. I'm sure there's still a clientele for those, so I'd be surprised
> > if they are gone, although I have no specific information.
>
> There's one smaller place that I'm aware of,
> "http://www.sagebagelanddeli.com/sage_deli_menu.html" but that's about
> it. It's owned by one of my childhood friend's wife's family.
>
> Miami Beach has totally changed. It's not full of Jewish retirees from
> the northeast anymore. South Beach used to have hundreds of small
> residential hotels with retired Jews, now all those hotels have become
> trendy boutique hotels and the tourists going to Miami Beach these days
> are not interested in corned beef sandwiches and the like. That's why
> the most famous of the deli restaurants, Rascal House, could not even
> continue. North Miami, where Wolfie's and Corky's were located used to
> be Jewish areas, now they are Cuban and black areas.
You're probably right about Miami, but there's more to South
Florida than Miami. Go north a bit toward Boca, Ft. Lauderdale, West
Palm, etc. and there's plenty enough market to keep delis in business.
-Gary
SMS
Yeah, we're trying to sell my late mother's house in that area now.
There are about 80 houses for sale in her extended neighborhood, about
half of which are short sales or foreclosure sales. The house will sell
for about 60% of what it would have sold for eight years ago. The
Realtor advised us to not delay as prices are still falling about 2% a
month, and another huge wave of foreclosures is coming later in 2010.
These are good quality houses in a desirable neighborhood, not the
recent developments that will be destroyed in the next hurricane and
that are almost out in the Everglades. It's great if you're buying--the
crappy housing drags down the prices of the good housing, though OTOH it
really makes no sense to buy anything when the prices are still falling
so much.
You can buy a condo on the beach for around $40K (1BR) but no bank will
finance it because so many of the condo associations are insolvent due
to the number of units where there is no one paying association assessments.
sf
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010, sf wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:19:03 -0700, Al Eisner
> > <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Too bad. We in ba.food of course know that one doesn't have to be X to
> >> appreciate X food.
> >
> > We'd probably have a different attitude if we kept kosher.
>
> But those who do are a minute fraction of the population. They are not
> who I was referring to, rather all the other non-Jewish people in that
> area. By the way, these may be particularly bad times in the Miami area --
> a story I saaw today puts them way ahead of any other metro area in the
> US in terms of foreclosures and mortgage problems.
Hey, look at the bright side. We're here and they're there.
SF leads the country in the real estate market recovery.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/35891353#35891353
Steve Pope
>a story I saw today puts them way ahead of any other metro area in the
>US in terms of foreclosures and mortgage problems.
Large numbers of Madoff victims also
S.
Steve Pope
>You're probably right about Miami, but there's more to South
>Florida than Miami. Go north a bit toward Boca, Ft. Lauderdale, West
>Palm, etc. and there's plenty enough market to keep delis in business.
I'm in Orlando presently. There's a glatt Kosher deli not
too far away, Cohen's in the suburb of Clermont. I may try
to get over there tomorrow evening.
A number of deli's in the Orlando area have shut down, but
this is true of all restaurant categories.
Steve
Steve Pope
>You can buy a condo on the beach for around $40K (1BR) but no bank will
>finance it because so many of the condo associations are insolvent due
>to the number of units where there is no one paying association assessments.
Don't the associations have foreclosure rights? I guess it's
politically hard to use such means of enforcement.
S.
JC Dill
It's not politically hard, it's financially hard. The association has
no money to buy foreclosed properties, nor do they want to own them in a
declining market. When the market is stable or going up, foreclosing
for unpaid dues works. When the market is declining, it doesn't work.
jc
Tim May
>
> You're probably right about Miami, but there's more to South
> Florida than Miami. Go north a bit toward Boca, Ft. Lauderdale, West
> Palm, etc. and there's plenty enough market to keep delis in business.
My brother in law in 1994 was Jewish. We went to the Wolfie Cohen
Rascal House near my sister's house in Hollywood (FL). It may have been
Hallandale, or somesuch.
I was unimpressed with the food. My BIL said that even most of the Jews
of his age preferred other cusines. He expected RH might last a while,
but would eventually get sold or converted to some other cuisine.
Especially as the older generation of Jews from NYC and NJ got too old
or died.
>
--
Tim May
SMS
I think so. You start with a lien against the property, and eventually
you can put it into foreclosure. But probably there's little incentive
to do that now. If the bank forecloses then the bank has to pay the
association fees, if the association forces a foreclosure then probably
the bank gets paid first, and if the property is under water then
there's no money to pay the back dues. If it sells, even in a short
sale, the association gets all the back fees and penalties that they are
due. But if it's impossible to sell these turkeys then there's no point
of foreclosing.
There's such a huge glut of these condos that it's almost become as bad
as owning a time-share that you can't sell, and that you have to pay
yearly fees on. You can't even walk away unless you declare bankruptcy.
My dad rented a condo at a big complex in Delray. At first we wanted him
to buy one, around $25K, but we realized that that would be pretty
foolish considering the low rent, the association fees, the property
taxes, and the falling values.
Even for snowbirds to buy a condo for the few months of the year they
spend in Florida makes no sense anymore, it's better to do a rental for
the winter season.
Basically the reason Florida was so hard hit was the policies of the
former Governor Jeb Bush and the stuff he let his developer buddies get
away with (actually encouraged them to get away with). There was a good
article about this in the New Yorker, George Packer, A Reporter at
Large, “The Ponzi State,” The New Yorker, February 9, 2009, p. 81. Not
available on-line to non-subscribers.
Steve Pope
>There's such a huge glut of these condos that it's almost become as bad
>as owning a time-share that you can't sell, and that you have to pay
>yearly fees on. You can't even walk away unless you declare bankruptcy.
>[..]
>Basically the reason Florida was so hard hit was the policies of the
>former Governor Jeb Bush and the stuff he let his developer buddies get
>away with (actually encouraged them to get away with). There was a good
>article about this in the New Yorker, George Packer, A Reporter at
>Large, �The Ponzi State,� The New Yorker, February 9, 2009, p. 81. Not
>available on-line to non-subscribers.
Interesting, thanks.
I have heard it stated that there are 600,000 housing units
in the U.S. in excess of demand. "New housing starts" is
normally considered a positive economic indicator, but
under current conditions, it is the reverse -- it would be
a positive indicator if new housing starts went to zero
for awhile, since it would mean the mindless development
that has dragged down the economy had temporarily stopped.
Steve
SMS
> On 2010-03-16 20:14:49 -0700, Gary Brainin said:
>>
>> You're probably right about Miami, but there's more to South
>> Florida than Miami. Go north a bit toward Boca, Ft. Lauderdale, West
>> Palm, etc. and there's plenty enough market to keep delis in business.
>
> My brother in law in 1994 was Jewish. We went to the Wolfie Cohen Rascal
> House near my sister's house in Hollywood (FL). It may have been
> Hallandale, or somesuch.
>
> I was unimpressed with the food.
That's because they knew who you were.
Actually by 1994 the Rascal House was already a few decades past its
heydey and was surviving on its reputation and the fact that most of its
competition was long gone. It wasn't just the declining Jewish
population in Miami, it was the declining tourist levels from the
northeast. The children of the tourists from the 1960's weren't
interested in going to Florida in the winter. They had more money, and
preferred Hawaii, or skiing in Colorado and Utah.
spamtrap1888
Nu? So where are the delis in Honolulu or SLC?
Peter Lawrence
Nor is known if it's a permanent closure. That article stated that they
*might* reopen somewhere else.
- Peter
SMS
All they need to do is find a landlord that doesn't mind a tenant that
shafted the last landlord for $200K in rent.
I've been there six times in the last nine months, and it was clear that
they were going down. No crowds like in the past, and the quality of the
food was not as good as in the past. The owners had a bad attitude to
the customers too.
Peter Lawrence
Except there's always a market for new housing because many home buyers
don't want to purchase a "used" home. They only want to buy never-lived-in
new homes. So there will always be a demand for brand-new homes.
- Peter
Peter Lawrence
>
> The children of the tourists from the 1960's weren't
> interested in going to Florida in the winter. They had more money, and
> preferred Hawaii, or skiing in Colorado and Utah.
Not the ones I know. They prefer traveling to the Caribbean or Europe, not
to Colorado, Utah, or Hawaii.
- Peter
SMS
> Except there's always a market for new housing because many home buyers
> don't want to purchase a "used" home. They only want to buy
> never-lived-in new homes. So there will always be a demand for brand-new
> homes.
This is true, and it's pretty ridiculous these days in many areas unless
you buy a tear-down and rebuild on that lot. Otherwise (for this area)
you end up with lots of new homes out in places like Tracy and Mountain
House.
Just found out today that my late mom's house sold in Florida. We were
lucky to sell it pretty fast, but the deadline for the tax incentive is
approaching, and since it was not a foreclosure or short sale the deal
can go through quickly.
spamtrap1888
I'm still waiting for the Chi-Dog to open -- that's what their owner
said when he closed up.
spamtrap1888
> On 3/17/10 12:36 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
Every house is a fixer-upper after the first twenty years. The idea of
moving into a house that doesn't need remodeling is mightily
appealing. Further, two br, one ba "charmers" don't charm everyone. A
formal dining room does not make up for a morning line to use the
bathroom.
SMS
<snip>
> Every house is a fixer-upper after the first twenty years. The idea of
> moving into a house that doesn't need remodeling is mightily
> appealing. Further, two br, one ba "charmers" don't charm everyone. A
> formal dining room does not make up for a morning line to use the
> bathroom.
Bless Ditz-Crane who were putting three full bathrooms into their tract
homes back in the 1960's.
I think the way to go in the Bay Area is to find an area close-in where
the lot is large enough to tear down the old house and build something
larger, though preferably not a McMansion. I've seen some very
tastefully done rebuilds in my city, along with the usual "monster
houses" (which have now been banned). I can't see commuting 30-50 miles
just to have a brand new house out in the distant suburbs.