Re: Subway Sales Tax

[Tim May]

On 2015-05-20 05:08:36 +0000, Sqwertz said:
> -----------------------
> Hello Steve
>
> I agree that CA tax rules are confusing. However, cold subs that are
> to go are not taxable unless they have been _toasted_. Most customers
> think toasted subs are still cold subs. But, they become hot subs
> under CA rules. Some stores where 80% of the sales are taxable, then
> all sales become taxable. This is the case in malls, especially.
>
> Please let us know next time this happens in a particular store.
>
> Diana Kazarian
> President
> Four County Development, Inc.


"Please let us know...."

Is it posted that a particular Subway falls into the "Some stores where
80% of the sales are taxable, then all sales become taxable" category?

If not, then why would Diana bother with hearing from some customer
that he expected a five dollar footlong to go cost five dollars and not
be instead some taxable amount more?

She's just jiving him.

A better approach is to raise the stakes. Start screaming at a store
owner that tries to shake down a customer for extra money.

"Cheapskate, it's only an extra 44 cents!"

"I'm not your nigger. I'm paying your extra 44 cents but I'm also
taking two bags of chips! Fuck you people dead. "

A store which declares itself to be in the "all sales are taxable, even
cold, to go orders" should POST THIS PROMINENTLY. If not, it's food.
Just like the cold sandwiches at Safeway or Nob Hill.

--
Tim May

[sf]

The store owner will tell you to bring your own goddamn sandwiches
from home the next time you want to eat.

--

sf

[taxed and spent]

"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:pr1plal7qu1tl7g9e...@4ax.com...

While simultaneously pointing to the sign "no outside food or drink".
SCRAM!

[Steve Pope]

Tim May <tc...@att.net> wrote:

>"Please let us know...."
>
>Is it posted that a particular Subway falls into the "Some stores where
>80% of the sales are taxable, then all sales become taxable" category?
>
>If not, then why would Diana bother with hearing from some customer
>that he expected a five dollar footlong to go cost five dollars and not
>be instead some taxable amount more?
>
>She's just jiving him.

+1

Better would be to apply sales taxes to all purchases. The
"food exemption" is riddled with contradiction. Foie gras
from an upscale butcher, cold and to go, is not taxed.
But snack foods (the cheap sources of calories for the
nomadic poor) are taxed, even when cold and to go.

Imputed tips are taxed, normal tips are not. We need more
sales tax revenue to spend another $8 billion on fixing
the corroding Bay Bridge.


S.

[sms]

Nearly all Subway stores correctly apply sales tax to only items that
are actually taxable. Only a couple violate BOE policy, for whatever
reason. Not a lot of customers will ever say anything because, as we've
seen in the threads on ba.food, most people don't understand the rules.

The basic issue is that in California food is not subject to sales tax.
The clean solution is to tax all food sold from all retailers, no matter
hot or cold, to eat-in or take-out. But that's not going to happen.

You could create a whole other set of rules as to which food sellers
have to collect tax. Whole Foods, for a while, was asking every customer
whether their purchase was to take out or eat there, even if you were
buying raw meat, eggs, and gallons of milk. They had gotten in trouble
because they were not taxing deli items that people ate on the premises.

Should potato salad from the Whole Foods deli be taxable but packaged
potato salad from the refrigerated case not be taxable?

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <mjiag4$tos$1...@dont-email.me>,

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>Not a lot of customers will ever say anything because, as we've
>seen in the threads on ba.food, most people don't understand the
>rules.

Speaking for myself, I just don't care. The price difference is
meaningless. (Plus, there's a 0% chance I'm going to Subway, but
that's another topic.)

>Should potato salad from the Whole Foods deli be taxable but packaged
>potato salad from the refrigerated case not be taxable?

I think it was a reasonable idea that "groceries" not be taxed, and
that "restaurant food" be taxed. It's totally clear for about a
bazillion examples, but also muddled for some. Some of you guys
like to obsess about where it's muddled. It's no big deal.

[sms]

On 5/20/2015 9:27 AM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <mjiag4$tos$1...@dont-email.me>,
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Not a lot of customers will ever say anything because, as we've
>> seen in the threads on ba.food, most people don't understand the
>> rules.
>
> Speaking for myself, I just don't care. The price difference is
> meaningless.

It's not the extra 9+% that's the issue, it's that the retailer is
attempting to collect sales tax that is not due.

[sf]

Obsess is a good word to use.

> It's no big deal.

--

sf

[sf]

On Wed, 20 May 2015 10:49:37 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

He has to account for it somehow. If it doesn't go directly to the
state as sales tax, then it's counted as income and *taxed*. <shrug>

--

sf

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <mjihde$prq$1...@dont-email.me>,

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>It's not the extra 9+% that's the issue, it's that the retailer is
>attempting to collect sales tax that is not due.

Yes, and we have the BOE to worry about that.

[sms]

LOL, you're quite naive. And a <shrug> doesn't fix that.

First of all, even if they did declare the 9.5% sales tax as income they
would be paying say 25% income tax on that 9.5% reducing it down to
about 2.2%.

Second, for many restaurants, cash payments are not reported as income
at all.

Third, most honest restaurants handle taxable versus non-taxable sales
just fine. It's easy to build it into the point of sale terminal. Look
at Specialty's online ordering system. It is perfectly able to
distinguish between taxable and non-taxable items. Like Subway, most of
their sandwiches are cold, and most are to go.

[sms]

The BOE cares only if sales tax this is due is not collected, not if
sales tax that is not due is collected.

They benefit from improper sales tax collection, at least if the
retailer gives them the money they collect.

[sf]

On Wed, 20 May 2015 11:52:40 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>

wrote:

> On 5/20/2015 11:07 AM, sf wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 May 2015 10:49:37 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2015 9:27 AM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> >>> In article <mjiag4$tos$1...@dont-email.me>,
> >>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Not a lot of customers will ever say anything because, as we've
> >>>> seen in the threads on ba.food, most people don't understand the
> >>>> rules.
> >>>
> >>> Speaking for myself, I just don't care. The price difference is
> >>> meaningless.
> >>
> >> It's not the extra 9+% that's the issue, it's that the retailer is
> >> attempting to collect sales tax that is not due.
> >
> > He has to account for it somehow. If it doesn't go directly to the
> > state as sales tax, then it's counted as income and *taxed*. <shrug>
>
> LOL, you're quite naive. And a <shrug> doesn't fix that.
>
> First of all, even if they did declare the 9.5% sales tax as income they
> would be paying say 25% income tax on that 9.5% reducing it down to
> about 2.2%.

Yes.

>
> Second, for many restaurants, cash payments are not reported as income
> at all.

Surprise surprise and I bet they aren't chains either.

>
> Third, most honest restaurants handle taxable versus non-taxable sales
> just fine. It's easy to build it into the point of sale terminal. Look
> at Specialty's online ordering system. It is perfectly able to
> distinguish between taxable and non-taxable items. Like Subway, most of
> their sandwiches are cold, and most are to go.

So you muddy the waters with the underground economy and then apply it
to Subway? I don't buy your logic.

--

sf

[sms]

On 5/20/2015 11:52 AM, sms wrote:
> On 5/20/2015 11:07 AM, sf wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 May 2015 10:49:37 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2015 9:27 AM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>>>> In article <mjiag4$tos$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Not a lot of customers will ever say anything because, as we've
>>>>> seen in the threads on ba.food, most people don't understand the
>>>>> rules.
>>>>
>>>> Speaking for myself, I just don't care. The price difference is
>>>> meaningless.
>>>
>>> It's not the extra 9+% that's the issue, it's that the retailer is
>>> attempting to collect sales tax that is not due.
>>
>> He has to account for it somehow. If it doesn't go directly to the
>> state as sales tax, then it's counted as income and *taxed*. <shrug>
>
> LOL, you're quite naive. And a <shrug> doesn't fix that.
>
> First of all, even if they did declare the 9.5% sales tax as income they
> would be paying say 25% income tax on that 9.5% reducing it down to
> about 2.2%.

It's actually worse than that. The city and county in which the business
is located is entitled to part of the sales tax, 0.25% to county
transportation funds 0.75% to city or county operations. If the business
instead pays sales tax on the improperly collected sales tax then the
city and county don't get their cut.

But of course this is all moot. A business that improperly collects
sales tax on non-taxable items is either going to give the money to the
BOE or keep it for themselves, they are not going to claim it as income.

[taxed and spent]

"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message

news:k8jpladc61ugatvve...@4ax.com...

no, if it collected as sales tax, it must go to the state as sales tax, even
if improperly collected. they get it all.

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <mjim7a$ei9$1...@dont-email.me>,

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>They benefit from improper sales tax collection, at least if the
>retailer gives them the money they collect.

Fine by me.

[sms]

There's still a downside to businesses that improperly collect sales tax
even if they give it to the BOE.

[Tim May]

I'll agree with you if it's mostly taken from the Negro and the Mexican.

Which it apparently is.

We agree.


--
Tim May

[Tim May]

Not saying I plan to do this, but a downside is that if a business
takes a tax that isn't owed, some disgruntled customer might just
decide to go Bandido on their ass and shoot the place up.

(My consequentialist point of view, even though I am not usually a
consequentialist, is to radically simplify what sales tax applies to.
For starters, if one can eat it or drink it, no sales tax. Simple.
Eliminates the hot/cold, eat-in/eat-out, healthy/unhealthy,
gluten/non-gluten, medically prescribed/other kinds of crap
complications. )


--
Tim May

[Tim May]

There are many reasons (not saying they are justified, moral, legal)
for over-collecting on sales tax that was not legall owed.

To wit, it gives them a substantial buffer against the inevitable cases
where they under-collected.


(This is not proper, but I'm saying this is a reason why it is often done.)

(Related trivia. I don't often buy stuff from vending machines. But
occasionally over the years, especially 1965-1985, a vending machine
delivered to me two items instead of one, or too much change, whatever.
I was not going to spend time on the phone trying to reconcile this,
etc., and I viewed the occasional over-output of stuff as compensation
for he various times I got nothing out of the vending machine, with no
recourse worth my time. BTW, at Intel I did not buy coffee from the
vending machines as so many did. But the machines were often broken by
kicks and other dents. I can understand why.)

A low-margin sandwich shop probably adjust his "tax/no tax" ratio to
match whatever the inspectors expect.

Not saying this is right, and I can partly understand why someone
charged wrongly might just decide to fuck the place up.


--
Tim May

[Peter Lawrence]

On 5/20/15 11:52 AM, sms wrote:
>
> Like Subway, most of their sandwiches
> are cold, and most are to go.

Like most Subways? Maybe the Subways of 20 years ago.

Nowadays, most people who buy sandwiches at Subway have their sandwiches
toasted that Subway correctly points out need to be taxed.


- Peter

[Tim May]

The issue for this thread was of course about those who ordered a cold
sandwich to go.

And were still charged sales tax.



--
Tim May

[Peter Lawrence]

But if 80% of people now purchase either hot or toasted subs at Subways,
then the 80/80 rule could apply and Subways could legally collect sales tax
for all of their sandwiches, either hot, toasted or cold.

(Though under BOE tax rules, they could still have an option of not taxing
the cold sandwiches if they so choosed.)


- Peter

[sf]

On Wed, 20 May 2015 23:29:39 -0700, Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com>
wrote:

Admittedly, I am not a Subway regular - but I've never seen a sandwich
leave the store that hadn't been warmed somehow in the process. I
thought that was the entire point of getting a sandwich at Subway. If
all they want is a cold sandwich, they can go to 7-11 and pick one out
of the refrigerated case.

--

sf

[Al Eisner]

Have you actually *ever* been to a Subway? No, warming is NOT the whole
point of Subway, it is an add-on. (It was the whole point of Quizmo's,
a company which did quite badly, in marked contrast to Subway's
success with a quite different model.) As for "never"s, I never
get my Subway sandwich heated, and plenty of others don't either,
based on my experience there. I certainly grant the point that
most people get them heated, but the heating is not what "makes"
the sandwich (even if it gets the sandwich treated differently
for sales-tax purposes).

The 7-11 analogy is simply absurd, not worth a comment.
--
Al Eisner

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris03.slac.stanford.edu>,

Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>It was the whole point of Quizmo's, a company which did quite
>badly, in marked contrast to Subway's success with a quite different
>model.

From what I saw, it appeared that Subway started offering heated
("toasted") sandwiches specially to compete with Quizno's. And it
worked great for them.

[sms]

LOL, a Subway sandwich is far better than an industrially produced 7-11
sandwich.

Probably about 25% of the sandwiches Subway sells are warmed based on
the times I visited there. The only reason they even started that was
because of Quizno's. Some selections obviously cannot be warmed. A lot
of people don't want them warmed because they are not going to be
consumed for quite a while. For example, the Subway I had the issue with
sells a lot of sandwiches to people heading up to Mount Tam for a hike
where it could be 3-4 hours before the sandwich is eaten.

Of course this is all moot, as was pointed out. Even in the unlikely
event that a Subway sold 80% heated sandwiches they could still not
collect tax on cold sandwiches, it's just that they would be allowed to
collect tax if they chose to. There's no upside to them collecting tax
when they don't have to. Their POS system makes it simple to account for
cold food to go versus hot food to go and cold or hot food to eat in.

[Steve Pope]

The good thing about Subway is the liberal amount of inorganic
veggies they will put on a sandwich.

What I massively dislike is the odor of baking the putative bread
used in most Subway sandwiches. I believe they are baking it
on-site, in most cases, but it smells nothing like a normal
bakery.

Steve

[Peter Lawrence]

On 5/21/15 12:27 PM, Al Eisner wrote:
>
> The 7-11 analogy is simply absurd, not worth a comment.

A yet you did, and a somewhat lengthy one I might add.

;)

[Peter Lawrence]

On 5/21/15 9:11 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
> What I massively dislike is the odor of baking the putative bread
> used in most Subway sandwiches. I believe they are baking it
> on-site, in most cases, but it smells nothing like a normal
> bakery.
>
> Steve

I agree about that smell. Hate it.

But I think Subway has realized that many customers didn't like that smell
too since the newest Subways I've visited don't reek of that obnoxious odor.
I suspect the newer Subways are using ovens that divert the odor through
vents out of their store or somehow deodorizes that smell.


- Peter

[sms]

On 5/21/2015 12:27 PM, Al Eisner wrote:

<snip>

> Have you actually *ever* been to a Subway? No, warming is NOT the whole
> point of Subway, it is an add-on. (It was the whole point of Quizmo's,
> a company which did quite badly, in marked contrast to Subway's
> success with a quite different model.) As for "never"s, I never
> get my Subway sandwich heated, and plenty of others don't either,
> based on my experience there. I certainly grant the point that
> most people get them heated, but the heating is not what "makes"
> the sandwich (even if it gets the sandwich treated differently
> for sales-tax purposes).
>
> The 7-11 analogy is simply absurd, not worth a comment.

It was good because it showed how weak his position was.

[Peter Lawrence]

His?

[Ciccio]

To me it's a distinction without a difference. For satisfying my
palate/appetite overall I rate both sandwiches at about a 3 on a 1-10 scale.

Ciccio
--
I don't care where Obama was born;
it's where he's living now that
bothers me.

[Al Eisner]

I don't smell that as much as I used to. In any case, the bread is
the weak link at Subway; it's the main reason I regard Subway as
a decent place for lunch rather than a genuinely good place.

PS: they are now advertising fresh sliced avocado for $1 extra. They
also did this in season last year, and it was really quite good, worth
the extra cost.
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Al Eisner]

Where or when? Never that I can recall. (My only comment on it in
this thread was the one line you quote above.)

[Peter Lawrence]

Huh?

I'm referring to the following paragraph of yours, commenting on sf's absurd

analogy, where you wrote:

>> Have you actually *ever* been to a Subway? No, warming is NOT the whole
>> point of Subway, it is an add-on. (It was the whole point of Quizmo's,
>> a company which did quite badly, in marked contrast to Subway's
>> success with a quite different model.) As for "never"s, I never
>> get my Subway sandwich heated, and plenty of others don't either,
>> based on my experience there. I certainly grant the point that
>> most people get them heated, but the heating is not what "makes"
>> the sandwich (even if it gets the sandwich treated differently
>> for sales-tax purposes).

- Peter

[Al Eisner]

Where do you find any mention of 7-11 (or its comparison to Subway)
in that paragraph?

[Peter Lawrence]

I thought that paragraph was linked with the other. At least it read that
way to me.


- Peter

[Tim May]

Sorry to quote this entire exchange in its entirety, but editing it
would undercut the absurdity of it.

I have seen MANY people order a bunch of cold sandwiches and then
leave, including myself. A friend's baseball team routinely, in
whatever town they were playing in, bought such sandwiches. Not much
point of having the sandwich toasted if folks are going to eat it
during the car ride, or at the beach, etc.

And the Subway sandwiches are better--though not necessarily
great--than what finds in the Cling-Wrap section of 7-11, Safeway, etc.

(The Safeway torpedos sometimes look attractive, especially when they
are on sale on Friday, with the meat artfully displayed. Then one finds
a few few thin slices of meat and cheese and some wilted lettuce.
Safeway pre-made sandwiches are to Subway sandwiches what frozen
beef-and-bean burritos are to what one finds in a taqueria.)


--
Tim May

[Tim May]

On 2015-05-23 02:33:33 +0000, Tim May said:
>
> And the Subway sandwiches are better--though not necessarily
> great--than what finds in the Cling-Wrap section of 7-11, Safeway, etc.

I should clarify this point: Subway sandwiches, in all the shops I have
been to, are pretty good for what they are. And they are reasonably
priced.

One can find better sandwiches, but usually for more money.

(I was sad to see the Lee's Sandwiches close in Santa Cruz several
years ago. Don't know why it closed. Lee's Sandwiches makes
Vietnamese-style sandwiches one could two such sandwiches for under $6.
I frequented them often when I was in downtown Santa Cruz. They still
are present in the Santa Clara Valley, of course. Ciccio says they are
even north near him.)

Subway I find to be reliable. One is standing right where the sandwich
is being made, as they ask about pickles, jalapenos, onions, mustard,
oil, vinegar, olives, etc.

I usually get the Italian-type bread, never toasted, usually "to go."

ObAncientHistory: I used to love the meatball sandwiches at Togo's,
before it went downhill for whatever reason. I'm talking 1974-1987 or
so. (It was still good when I used to visit Computer Literacy off of
Lawrence Expressway....a Togo's was right next door.

And of course I loved the piled-high ham, or salami, or whatever
sandwiches at the New York Deli in Sunnyvale/Santa Clara (related to
the family that owns several other restaurants, and also still sells
sausage in Bay Area supermarkets--discussed here in the past).

But a lot of those sandwiches were $2.50-$3.50 back in the day, so
today they would likely be about $8-$10. Too high for today's
descent-into-poverty system.

--
Tim May