Foie gras at Presidio Social Club

[Mark Mellin]

From today's Chronicle,

<http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/07/09/presidio-social-club-located-on-federal-land-in-the-presidio-starts-serving-foie-gras/>

the Presidio Social Club plans to begin serving foie gras on
Bastille Day, claiming their location on federal land exempts them
from California law. The author goes on to wonder if the Cliff House
and other properties in the National Park will follow suit, while I
wonder when the Indian casinos will catch on.

- Mark

--
Mark Mellin ULmar 9 - 5470
Mailstop 408-85 Menlo Park, CA 94025-3493 USA

[Steve Pope]

Mark Mellin <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> the Presidio Social Club plans to begin serving foie gras on
> Bastille Day, claiming their location on federal land exempts them
> from California law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assimilative_Crimes_Act




Steve

[Pico Rico]

"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message
news:jtfu3a$lep$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...

"State law is assimilated only when no "enactment of Congress" covers the
conduct. The application of this rule is not always easy."

There are lot of "enactments of Congress" pertaining to food and farming.

[evergene]

Oh yeah? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABeWlY0KFv8

[Steve Pope]

Pico Rico <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote:

>"State law is assimilated only when no "enactment of Congress" covers the
>conduct. The application of this rule is not always easy."
>
>There are lot of "enactments of Congress" pertaining to food and farming.

Sorry, no dice. Unless there is a federal law directly contradicting a
state law, and making the conduct legal, federal authorities can choose
to prosecute under the Act.

They may decline to prosecute, but in my view it would set a bad
precedent if state animal cruelty laws could be ignored on federal
property. Would you say permit folks to hunt stray cats on the
Presidio? Most animal cruelty laws are at the state and local
level, although there are a few federal ones (notably, prohibiting
animal fighting, so the odds of a cockfighting ring getting set
up on the Presidio are remote; no doubt disappointing some foie
gras diners.)



S.

[tutall]

On Jul 9, 6:30 pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Would you say permit folks to hunt stray cats on the
> Presidio?

How much would the permits cost? Could be a good revenue source.

Chinese restaraunts might oppose something like this
though................

[Stef]

In article <markmellin-CA6F0...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>,

Mark Mellin <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> From today's Chronicle,
>
> <http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/07/09/presidio-social-club-located-on-federal-land-in-the-presidio-starts-serving-foie-gras/>

I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
gras slider" should be.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** firecat.dreamwidth.org ** fatfriendlydocs.com **
**
Save the whales -- Trade them for valuable prizes!

[sf]

On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:13:57 -0700, Mark Mellin
<markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> From today's Chronicle,
>
> <http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/07/09/presidio-social-club-located-on-federal-land-in-the-presidio-starts-serving-foie-gras/>
>
> the Presidio Social Club plans to begin serving foie gras on
> Bastille Day, claiming their location on federal land exempts them
> from California law. The author goes on to wonder if the Cliff House
> and other properties in the National Park will follow suit, while I
> wonder when the Indian casinos will catch on.
>

I tried the Presidio Social Club twice and not going back. Although
the food was okay, I thought it was way over priced.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

[sf]

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:14:06 +0000 (UTC), st...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:

> I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
> gras slider" should be.

I think it's a real travesty to fry foie gras under any circumstance.

[Al Eisner]

But wouldn't potential foie gras customers, eager to get their fix,
be willing to pay any price? :)

(Envision a new organized-crime enterprise: operating pop-up foie gras
restaurants, no doubt in back rooms.)
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[sf]

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:41:32 -0700, Al Eisner
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, sf wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:13:57 -0700, Mark Mellin
> > <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> From today's Chronicle,
> >>
> >> <http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/07/09/presidio-social-club-located-on-federal-land-in-the-presidio-starts-serving-foie-gras/>
> >>
> >> the Presidio Social Club plans to begin serving foie gras on
> >> Bastille Day, claiming their location on federal land exempts them
> >> from California law. The author goes on to wonder if the Cliff House
> >> and other properties in the National Park will follow suit, while I
> >> wonder when the Indian casinos will catch on.
> >>
> > I tried the Presidio Social Club twice and not going back. Although
> > the food was okay, I thought it was way over priced.
>
> But wouldn't potential foie gras customers, eager to get their fix,
> be willing to pay any price? :)

Foie gras schma gras. Look where their main customers live and
extrapolate. Apparently they don't think that place is as over priced
as I do or it would have been out of business years ago. :)

>
> (Envision a new organized-crime enterprise: operating pop-up foie gras
> restaurants, no doubt in back rooms.)


--

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/10/12 12:41 PM, Al Eisner wrote:
>
> But wouldn't potential foie gras customers, eager to get their fix,
> be willing to pay any price? :)
>
> (Envision a new organized-crime enterprise: operating pop-up foie gras
> restaurants, no doubt in back rooms.)

If restaurants started serving Gänseleberpastete instead, would the food
police take notice? ;)


- Peter

[evergene]

Stef wrote:

>In article <markmellin-CA6F0...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>,
>Mark Mellin <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> From today's Chronicle,
>>
>> <http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/07/09/presidio-social-club-located-on-federal-land-in-the-presidio-starts-serving-foie-gras/>
>
>I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
>gras slider" should be.

Right on!

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/10/12 1:24 PM, evergene wrote:

> Stef wrote:
>>
>> I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
>> gras slider" should be.
>
> Right on!

Isn't that a slider that a pitcher throws that doesn't break and hangs right
over the fat part of the plate, an easy to hit baseball that's like a
sitting duck?

:)

[Al Eisner]

No, quite the opposite -- a slider does break, although it may appear
to the hitter that it won't. A sitting duck, on the other hand, is an
animal en route to becoming foie gras. (Just to stay on topic.)

[Steve Pope]

sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:14:06 +0000 (UTC), st...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:

>> I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
>> gras slider" should be.

>I think it's a real travesty to fry foie gras under any circumstance.

I don't think the term slider implies that anything has been fried.

But yes, the nouveau batch of chefs do not know searing from frying,
nor would they know if they have ruined anything by not knowing the
difference, nor would they know a piece of real foie gras from something
that might as well be fried. They are only concerned with buzz-words.

By the way, a "slider" is a pitch that fakes out the batter and hits
them in the liver. :-)


Steve

[Steve Fenwick]

In article <jtir22$r1t$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

> sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:14:06 +0000 (UTC), st...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>
> >> I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
> >> gras slider" should be.
>
> >I think it's a real travesty to fry foie gras under any circumstance.
>
> I don't think the term slider implies that anything has been fried.
>
> But yes, the nouveau batch of chefs do not know searing from frying,
> nor would they know if they have ruined anything by not knowing the
> difference, nor would they know a piece of real foie gras from something
> that might as well be fried. They are only concerned with buzz-words.

Laurelhurst Market (Portland), which started as a butcher shop and added
a restaurant, has it; the menu item reads:
Foie Gras Torchon -- Salt Cured; with Toasted Brioche, Gooseberries,
Spiced Hazelnuts, Rene's Microgreens

I'll let you know how it is.

They also have marrow bones, steak tartare, and a nice selection of
steaks. I'm looking forward to trying their charcuterie plate, too,
since it's all supposed to be made in-house.

The foie gras truffle at Beast is excellent.

Steve

--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, sidecar in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

[Steve Pope]

Steve Fenwick <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

>> But yes, the nouveau batch of chefs do not know searing from frying,
>> nor would they know if they have ruined anything by not knowing the
>> difference, nor would they know a piece of real foie gras from something
>> that might as well be fried. They are only concerned with buzz-words.

>Laurelhurst Market (Portland), which started as a butcher shop and added
>a restaurant, has it; the menu item reads:
> Foie Gras Torchon -- Salt Cured; with Toasted Brioche, Gooseberries,
> Spiced Hazelnuts, Rene's Microgreens
>
>I'll let you know how it is.
>
>They also have marrow bones, steak tartare, and a nice selection of
>steaks. I'm looking forward to trying their charcuterie plate, too,
>since it's all supposed to be made in-house.
>
>The foie gras truffle at Beast is excellent.

Sure, let me know. I decided to no longer consume foie gras in
around 2003, but before then I had enough experience to have a bit
of familiarity. I'm sure I've discussed my relative opinion of
the French, Hudson Valley and California products in the past.
My opinions could be out of date, of course. But nothing I've
seen (at adjacaent tables in restaurants), or heard said about
it has been very encouraging. It all seems very mass-market now.

It's difficult for me to believe the whole product area hasn't gone
way downhill, with quality replaced by bluster, like so many other
traditional products; but I could be mistaken.

If you have past experience with Hudson Valley product (let's say,
pre-2000 to match mine), and with high-quality non-foie-gras duck
liver, your opinions might be especially relevant to someone like me.


Steve

[sf]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 03:14:10 +0000 (UTC), spo...@speedymail.org
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> By the way, a "slider" is a pitch that fakes out the batter and hits
> them in the liver. :-)

I know so little about baseball terminology that I don't know if
you're joking or serious!

[evergene]

Steve Pope wrote:

[...]

>But yes, the nouveau batch of chefs do not know searing from frying,

What's the difference?

[Ciccio]

On Jul 11, 9:17 am, sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 03:14:10 +0000 (UTC), spop...@speedymail.org

>
> (Steve Pope) wrote:
> > By the way, a "slider" is a pitch that fakes out the batter and hits
> > them in the liver. :-)
>
> I know so little about baseball terminology that I don't know if
> you're joking or serious!

That's OK. To show how little I know about foie gras, I didn't know
that they faked out geese/ducks and hit them in the liver. No wonder
there's all the protesting.

Ciccio

[Al Eisner]

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, Steve Fenwick wrote:

> In article <jtir22$r1t$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,
> spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>> sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:14:06 +0000 (UTC), st...@panix.com (Stef) wrote:
>>
>>>> I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
>>>> gras slider" should be.
>>
>>> I think it's a real travesty to fry foie gras under any circumstance.
>>
>> I don't think the term slider implies that anything has been fried.
>>
>> But yes, the nouveau batch of chefs do not know searing from frying,
>> nor would they know if they have ruined anything by not knowing the
>> difference, nor would they know a piece of real foie gras from something
>> that might as well be fried. They are only concerned with buzz-words.
>
> Laurelhurst Market (Portland), which started as a butcher shop and added
> a restaurant, has it; the menu item reads:
> Foie Gras Torchon -- Salt Cured; with Toasted Brioche, Gooseberries,
> Spiced Hazelnuts, Rene's Microgreens
>
> I'll let you know how it is.
>
> They also have marrow bones, steak tartare, and a nice selection of
> steaks. I'm looking forward to trying their charcuterie plate, too,
> since it's all supposed to be made in-house.
>
> The foie gras truffle at Beast is excellent.
>
> Steve

I wonder if CDFA stations at the Oregon border will now have to check
for illegal foie gras. According to the map linked from
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html
there are already 6 stations along that border.

[Steve Pope]

Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

>I wonder if CDFA stations at the Oregon border will now have to check
>for illegal foie gras. According to the map linked from
>http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html
>there are already 6 stations along that border.

The Bird Feeding law does not disallow bringing foie gras into
the state. I believe, for example, Chinese foie gras could still be
transshiped through California airports to the rest of the U.S.
Also individuals can still mail-order out-of-state foie gras for
their own consumption.

Only production and sale are banned.



Steve

[Steve Pope]

evergene <ge...@geeaitcheekaygee.com> wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>>But yes, the nouveau batch of chefs do not know searing from frying,

>What's the difference?

Frying by definition involves a large quantity of fat/oil.

There is a difference of opinion among authorities as to whether frying
implies high heat. This is a slightly tangential point.


Steve

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/11/12 10:09 AM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
> The Bird Feeding law does not disallow bringing foie gras into
> the state. I believe, for example, Chinese foie gras could still be
> transshiped through California airports to the rest of the U.S.
> Also individuals can still mail-order out-of-state foie gras for
> their own consumption.
>
> Only production and sale are banned.

Then it should be perfectly legal to serve out-of-state foie gras in an
amuse-bouche to dining patrons, correct, since an amuse-bouche is considered
to be a free no-charge item served by restaurants.

(Nor would it be listed on the restaurant's menu. ;) )


- Peter

[Steve Pope]

Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:

>Then it should be perfectly legal to serve out-of-state foie gras in an
>amuse-bouche to dining patrons, correct, since an amuse-bouche is considered
>to be a free no-charge item served by restaurants.

Chez TJ's is apparently serving "free foie gras".

The thing to do (if you're foie gras eater) would be to go there,
get seated, and ask for just the free foie gras... if it's truly
free, they should be compelled to serve it to you. "Free" means
no strings.



Steve

[Tim May]

A restaurant is free to refuse service to anyone (except with regard to
the "third rail" PC issues).


--
Tim May

[Steve Pope]

Of course, but if the restaurant serves no foie gras except to
diners who are buying other items, then they are de facto selling
foie gras, contravening the Bird Feeding law.

Steve

[Steve Fenwick]

In article <jtj4d1$uis$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

> If you have past experience with Hudson Valley product (let's say,
> pre-2000 to match mine), and with high-quality non-foie-gras duck
> liver, your opinions might be especially relevant to someone like me.

I've only been eating foie gras for a few years, and haven't been
tracking the provenance, so I won't be able to give that kind of detail.

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/11/12 10:01 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Of course, but if the restaurant serves no foie gras except to
> diners who are buying other items, then they are de facto selling
> foie gras, contravening the Bird Feeding law.

No, they're not de facto selling the foie gras. They're offering as a free
gift.

A "free gift with purchase" is a common marketing tactic among retailers,
especially if it's just a limited time offer.


- Peter

[Steve Pope]

Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:

>On 7/11/12 10:01 PM, Steve Pope wrote:

>> Of course, but if the restaurant serves no foie gras except to
>> diners who are buying other items, then they are de facto selling
>> foie gras, contravening the Bird Feeding law.

>No, they're not de facto selling the foie gras. They're offering as a free
>gift.

Not to my skeptical mind.

>A "free gift with purchase" is a common marketing tactic among retailers,
>especially if it's just a limited time offer.

Sure, but they're gifting something that is legal to sell in the
first place.

I got a marketing idea however. List the borderline-legal menu item
as a "loophole lobe".


Steve

[sf]

Ha!

[sf]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:05:07 -0700, Al Eisner
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> I wonder if CDFA stations at the Oregon border will now have to check
> for illegal foie gras. According to the map linked from
> http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html
> there are already 6 stations along that border.

I wonder if the dogs at the airport will be sniffing for more than
fresh fruit.

[Al Eisner]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, sf wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:05:07 -0700, Al Eisner
> <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if CDFA stations at the Oregon border will now have to check
>> for illegal foie gras. According to the map linked from
>> http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html
>> there are already 6 stations along that border.
>
> I wonder if the dogs at the airport will be sniffing for more than
> fresh fruit.

Truffles, certainly. A 60-Minutes piece noted that organized crime is
heavily into that business. (At least in Italy.)

[Tim May]

No, they don't charge for the foie gras.

But they are under no obligation to serve everyone.

Obviously, they only offer the freebie of the fois gras after a diner
has ordered.

So, bums seeking free food are encouraged to leave Chez TJ and move
over to the begging line at the Whole Foods store.

--
Tim May

[Tim May]

On 2012-07-12 23:15:46 +0000, Al Eisner said:

> Truffles, certainly. A 60-Minutes piece noted that organized crime is
> heavily into that business. (At least in Italy.)

Ah, this explains why there's a relatively free market in truffles.

Had the government been involved, there would've been a shortage of
truffles in Italy just as there would've been a shortage of sand in the
Sahara.

(I'm quite serious. When illegal markets operate, this usually means
efficient markets.)


--
Tim May

[tutall]

Black markets operate where there is *no* marketplace, let alone an
efficient one.
Organized crime is generally into such illegal markets, prostitution,
drugs. Where these are legal and efficient, organized crime will not
be found.

Can you offer some examples and counter examples?

[sf]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 00:24:24 -0700, Tim May <tc...@att.net> wrote:

> (I'm quite serious. When illegal markets operate, this usually means
> efficient markets.)

Oh? Then explain what's happening to "Russian" caviar.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81996&page=1

[sf]

I can see where it would be a free appetizer for those ordering
"selected items" as an entree.

[Steve Pope]

sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 00:20:36 -0700, Tim May <tc...@att.net> wrote:

>> On 2012-07-12 05:01:04 +0000, Steve Pope said:

>> > Of course, but if the restaurant serves no foie gras except to
>> > diners who are buying other items, then they are de facto selling
>> > foie gras, contravening the Bird Feeding law.

>> No, they don't charge for the foie gras.

>> But they are under no obligation to serve everyone.

>> Obviously, they only offer the freebie of the fois gras after a diner
>> has ordered.

>I can see where it would be a free appetizer for those ordering
>"selected items" as an entree.

Obviously, if only those paying money receive foie gras, foie
gras is being sold, not given away.

Seriously, these foie gras types have a serious case of tunnel-vision.

Steve

[Pico Rico]

>
> Seriously, these foie gras types have a serious case of tunnel-vision.
>
> Steve

on both sides of the fence.

[spamtrap1888]

On Jul 14, 9:10 pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

> sf  <sf.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 00:20:36 -0700, Tim May <tc...@att.net> wrote:
> >> On 2012-07-12 05:01:04 +0000, Steve Pope said:
> >> > Of course, but if the restaurant serves no foie gras except to
> >> > diners who are buying other items, then they are de facto selling
> >> > foie gras, contravening the Bird Feeding law.
> >> No, they don't charge for the foie gras.
> >> But they are under no obligation to serve everyone.
> >> Obviously, they only offer the freebie of the fois gras after a diner
> >> has ordered.
> >I can see where it would be a free appetizer for those ordering
> >"selected items" as an entree.
>
> Obviously, if only those paying money receive foie gras, foie
> gras is being sold, not given away.

If a dish costs the same whether or not it contains foie gras,
obviously foie gras is being given away.

>
> Seriously, these foie gras types have a serious case of tunnel-vision.
>

If feeding tubes are cruel, then go ripping them out of hospital
patients.

[Patti Beadles]

In article <markmellin-CA6F0...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>,
Mark Mellin <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> wonder when the Indian casinos will catch on.

I had dinner at Cache Creek this evening. They had foie gras on
the menu.

-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
http://stopshootingauto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond

[sf]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:16:43 +0000 (UTC), pat...@rahul.net (Patti
Beadles) wrote:

> In article <markmellin-CA6F0...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>,
> Mark Mellin <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > wonder when the Indian casinos will catch on.
>
> I had dinner at Cache Creek this evening. They had foie gras on
> the menu.
>

Were they selling it or giving it away - I suppose it doesn't matter
anyway because they probably don't have to comply with state law.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

In article <jtlc88$sdg$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

I was just at Chez TZ's by chance. Foie gras is served in the chef's
special.

(Interesting food there but I'd never recommend the place. For how much
money they charge, you think they could buy some fucking comfortable
chairs for their four hour meals.)
--
I will not see posts from Google because I must filter them as spam

[Steve Pope]

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmu...@pixelmemory.us> wrote:

>I was just at Chez TZ's by chance. Foie gras is served in the chef's
>special.

Which county are they in, San Mateo or Santa Clara?


Steve

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/16/12 10:21 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Which county are they in, San Mateo or Santa Clara?

Sacramento County...

http://www.yelp.com/biz/chez-tj-folsom

;)

[Steve Pope]

They're not in Folsom. Yet!

Where is my Johnny Cash LP?


S.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

In article <ju2sov$mg4$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

Mountain View in Santa Clara County

[Patti Beadles]

In article <f7i808tc82e37tkvr...@4ax.com>,

sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Were they selling it or giving it away - I suppose it doesn't matter
>anyway because they probably don't have to comply with state law.

Selling it. They're tribal land, so they don't have to comply
with the ban.

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/18/12 8:34 PM, Patti Beadles wrote:
> In article <f7i808tc82e37tkvr...@4ax.com>,
> sf <sf.u...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Were they selling it or giving it away - I suppose it doesn't matter
>> anyway because they probably don't have to comply with state law.
>
> Selling it. They're tribal land, so they don't have to comply
> with the ban.

I wonder if the former California foie gras producers had thought of moving
their operations to Indian lands in California. I'm sure one of Indian
tribes would probably have been accommodating in leasing some land to the
producers.


- Peter

[Steve Pope]

Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:

>I wonder if the former California foie gras producers had thought of moving
>their operations to Indian lands in California.

They have said Nevada.

>I'm sure one of Indian
>tribes would probably have been accommodating in leasing some land to the
>producers.

So far, any California Indian tribes who have stated a position to the press
have said they are now staying away from foie gras.

Never assume.


Steve

[Peter Lawrence]

Yet one Indian tribe appears to have no qualms in selling and serving it at
one of their casino restaurants.


- Peter

[Steve Pope]

Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:

>On 7/18/12 10:21 PM, Steve Pope wrote:

>> So far, any California Indian tribes who have stated a position to the press
>> have said they are now staying away from foie gras.

>Yet one Indian tribe appears to have no qualms in selling and serving it at
>one of their casino restaurants.

That could be, although I have not seen this.

It's legally safer than what the Presidio people are doing; in their
case, the Park Service police and courts can make a decision to pursue
it, but in the case of the Presidio, it's just their own tribal
police and courts, who are not really a different entity from the
tribe itself and its casinos.

Steve

[Peter Lawrence]

On 7/18/12 10:33 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
> Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On 7/18/12 10:21 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
>>>
>>> So far, any California Indian tribes who have stated a position to the press
>>> have said they are now staying away from foie gras.
>>
>> Yet one Indian tribe appears to have no qualms in selling and serving it at
>> one of their casino restaurants.
>
> That could be, although I have not seen this.

Could be? I trust Patti's word that it was on the Cache Creek restaurant's
menu Monday evening.


- Peter

[Steve Pope]

It is not clear from Patti's statement that they were selling it.
(as opposed to having not reprinted the menu since they stopped
selling it).

In any case, Thunder Mountain Casino has stated they will desist
in selling foie gras in light of the state ban. The Beach Chalet
made a similar statement.

Steve

[Al Eisner]

Not really. National parks in CA follow state traffic regulations,
so far as I know. I'd be surprised if they did differently in this
case, but who knows. As for the Chez TJ example someone gave, maybe
they regard themselves as part of the territory of France. :)

[Steve Pope]

I definitely mis-worded what I intended to write above. I intended
to say: selling foie gras on the Presidio is more legally
questionable than selling foie gras on an Indian reservation.

In any case there is a legal distinction between federal lands and
tribal lands. On federal lands, the feds can choose to apply
state laws (as discussed earlier in this thread). Whereas on tribal
lands, Indians have no obligation to follow state laws. But non-Indians
must normally follow state laws while on the reservation.


Steve

[Steve Pope]

Tangentially, I ate lunch today at a restaurant and noticed
a chef/cook wearing a t-shirt that read, "Touche pas a mon
foie gras". I don't speak French, so I'm not entirely sure if
this is a pro- or anti-foie gras statement, but I'm guessing anti.



Steve

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <ju9uf3$ipo$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

There's such a thing as web/phone translation.

Anyway, it's terrible French, so speaking French won't help you
much, but it says "Don't touch my foie gras" (presumably).

[spamtrap1888]

On Jul 19, 2:37 pm, mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> In article <ju9uf3$ip...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

>
> Steve Pope <spop...@speedymail.org> wrote:
> >Tangentially, I ate lunch today at a restaurant and noticed
> >a chef/cook wearing a t-shirt that read, "Touche pas a mon
> >foie gras".  I don't speak French, so I'm not entirely sure if
> >this is a pro- or anti-foie gras statement, but I'm guessing anti.
>
> There's such a thing as web/phone translation.
>
> Anyway, it's terrible French, so speaking French won't help you
> much, but it says "Don't touch my foie gras" (presumably).

No, it's good French, assuming the a has an accent grave. Removing the
'a' yields "Hands off my foie gras"

[Steve Pope]

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, it's good French, assuming the a has an accent grave. Removing the
> 'a' yields "Hands off my foie gras"

Thanks. Yes there was an accent grave on "touche".

I'm still a little uncertain whethere this is a pro- or anti-
foie gras statement.

Steve

[Pico Rico]

"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message
news:jua1j7$k18$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...

sounds pretty pro to me.

[Steve Pope]

Pico Rico <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote:

>"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message

>> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No, it's good French, assuming the a has an accent grave. Removing the
>>> 'a' yields "Hands off my foie gras"
>>
>> Thanks. Yes there was an accent grave on "touche".
>>
>> I'm still a little uncertain whethere this is a pro- or anti-
>> foie gras statement.

>sounds pretty pro to me.

I found an image of the identical T-shirt. You tell me.

As a non-French speaker, it's very difficult for me to know whether
a short sentence like this has one sense, or the opposite sense.

It depends, I think, on whether "don't touch my foie gras" is being
stated by a chef/diner, or a duck.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/stickaforkinit/foie-gras-t-shirt.jpg

Steve

[Al Eisner]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Steve Pope wrote:

Well, the duck doesn't have its mouth open. And you've already told
us a healthy duck doesn't have a foie gras.

But this T-shirt doesn't have an accent over the "a", so maybe there is
more than one version.

[Steve Pope]

I'm pretty sure it's pro-foie-gras, as the restaurant where I saw
this T-shirt had held some sort of foie-gras festival in late June.

And as you say, a duck would not normally have a "foie gras". "Hands
off my foie" might be more arguably anti- statement.

Steve

[Pico Rico]

"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message

news:jua3p9$ktn$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...

Here is the text that goes with that image:


"If you're the type that likes to wear your cause on your sleeve, this may
be just your size. As part of their fight against California's pending ban
on foie gras (only 45 days away!), the Coalition for Humane and Ethical
Farming Standards (C.H.E.F.S.), which Haven Gastropub's chef Greg Daniels is
a part of, has teamed up with food-focused fashion company Flavour Gallery
to create a limited-edition T-shirt that says "Touche Pas A Mon Foie Gras."
Translation: Don't Touch My Foie Gras. It comes in guys' and gals' sizes and
10-percent of sales go to the cause.

Of course, wearing it out may slightly cross into douchebag territory,
unless you're a chef. If you're a chef, you can wear whatever you want--you
have knives."

and


"chefs in our home state of California have formed a group called the
Coalition for Humane and Ethical Farming Standards (C.H.E.F.S.) to fight
California's pending ban on foie gras. The ban is on fattened duck or goose
liver and is set to take effect July 1.


A charter has been signed by chefs and will be submitted to California's
legislative branch - the charter promotes a proposed Humane and Ethical Foie
Gras Act that would mandate regular audits by certified animal welfare
experts; cage-free birds; trained caretakers; feeding methods that do not
harm the animal in any way; and propose reasonable limits on fattening.


This designed was inspired by Chef Ludo and has his authentic French seal of
approval.


10% of sales from this item will be donated to C.H.E.F.S. We appreciate
your support!"

[Steve Pope]

Pico Rico <Pico...@nonospam.com> quotes,

>"Of course, wearing it out may slightly cross into douchebag territory,
>unless you're a chef. If you're a chef, you can wear whatever you want--you
>have knives."

What complete losers. Gee they have knives. Is that the best
they can come up with?



S.

[Pico Rico]

"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message

news:jua7g9$mbi$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...

I thought that part of the quote was dopey and superfluous.

[Tony Lima]

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:17:57 -0700, Al Eisner
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, Peter Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/12 1:24 PM, evergene wrote:
>>> Stef wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think foie gras should be illegal, but I think the phrase "foie
>>>> gras slider" should be.
>>>
>>> Right on!
>>
>> Isn't that a slider that a pitcher throws that doesn't break and hangs right
>> over the fat part of the plate, an easy to hit baseball that's like a sitting
>> duck?
>>
>> :)
>
>No, quite the opposite -- a slider does break, although it may appear
>to the hitter that it won't. A sitting duck, on the other hand, is an
>animal en route to becoming foie gras. (Just to stay on topic.)

Nice job, guys. TMMLOL. - Tony

[Tony Lima]

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:41:32 -0700, Al Eisner
<eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, sf wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:13:57 -0700, Mark Mellin
>> <markm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> From today's Chronicle,
>>>
>>> <http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/07/09/presidio-social-club-located-on-federal-land-in-the-presidio-starts-serving-foie-gras/>
>>>
>>> the Presidio Social Club plans to begin serving foie gras on
>>> Bastille Day, claiming their location on federal land exempts them
>>> from California law. The author goes on to wonder if the Cliff House
>>> and other properties in the National Park will follow suit, while I
>>> wonder when the Indian casinos will catch on.
>>>
>> I tried the Presidio Social Club twice and not going back. Although
>> the food was okay, I thought it was way over priced.
>
>But wouldn't potential foie gras customers, eager to get their fix,
>be willing to pay any price? :)
>
>(Envision a new organized-crime enterprise: operating pop-up foie gras
>restaurants, no doubt in back rooms.)

Demand curves slope downward. - T

[sf]

Thanks because Google translate was unintelligible.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

[Al Eisner]

which suggets this question: does organized crime employ economists?

[Steve Pope]

Pico Rico <Pico...@nonospam.com> wrote:

>"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message

>> Pico Rico <Pico...@nonospam.com> quotes,

>>>"Of course, wearing it out may slightly cross into douchebag territory,
>>>unless you're a chef. If you're a chef, you can wear whatever you
>>>want--you
>>>have knives."

>> What complete losers. Gee they have knives. Is that the best
>> they can come up with?

>I thought that part of the quote was dopey and superfluous.

I agree, but with these neo-foodies it's difficult to determine
where the dopiness ends and the seriousness begins. If it ever
does. To me, the message conveyed by a slogan like "Hands off
my foie gras" is one of entitlement. I think if you grow up
being told that if doing something is fun that is reason
enough to give you have an absolute entitlement to do it (regardless
of implications), then you end up with that mindset.


Steve

[Pico Rico]

"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote in message

news:juchlk$kd4$1...@blue-new.rahul.net...

I don't get that conveyance from the slogan.

[Tim May]

"Don't touch my foie gras."

Clearly, to me, pro the dish, anti the ban.


--
Tim May

[Tony Lima]

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:06:44 -0700, Al Eisner

Doesn't matter. Demand curves slope downward for
non-economists, too. - T

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <7sv018d7cqshmam07...@4ax.com>,

Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>Doesn't matter. Demand curves slope downward for non-economists,
>too.

Except when they don't.

[Steve Pope]

Todd Michel McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:

>>Doesn't matter. Demand curves slope downward for non-economists,
>>too.
>
>Except when they don't.

Indeed; the more the economy tanks, the more demand there is
for economists.


Steve

[Tony Lima]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 23:25:26 +0000 (UTC),

mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:

Todd, please stick to physics. - T

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <2hd038hpq5hkjpj9o...@4ax.com>,

Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 23:25:26 +0000 (UTC),
>mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>In article <7sv018d7cqshmam07...@4ax.com>,
>>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>>Doesn't matter. Demand curves slope downward for non-economists,
>>>too.
>>Except when they don't.
>Todd, please stick to physics. - T

I haven't done physics in 20 years, and have no desire to change
that.

You teach undergrads, right? You don't cover examples where
raising a price increased demand? That was a part of even
lower division classes when I was misguided enough to pursue
am economics degree.

[Peter Lawrence]

On 8/18/12 6:12 PM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>
> You don't cover examples where
> raising a price increased demand?

I've used that strategy at times on StubHub to good effect!

:)

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <k0pg33$s6l$1...@dont-email.me>,

I don't doubt it. It's not that rare.

[Steve Pope]

On 8/18/12 6:12 PM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:

> You don't cover examples where
> raising a price increased demand?

Vodka, during a Romney election?



S.

[Tony Lima]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 01:12:10 +0000 (UTC),

mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:

>In article <2hd038hpq5hkjpj9o...@4ax.com>,
>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 23:25:26 +0000 (UTC),
>>mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>>In article <7sv018d7cqshmam07...@4ax.com>,
>>>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>Doesn't matter. Demand curves slope downward for non-economists,
>>>>too.
>>>Except when they don't.
>>Todd, please stick to physics. - T
>
>I haven't done physics in 20 years, and have no desire to change
>that.
>
>You teach undergrads, right? You don't cover examples where
>raising a price increased demand? That was a part of even
>lower division classes when I was misguided enough to pursue
>am economics degree.

Whoever taught you that should have their Ph.D. revoked for
not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand
curve and a shift in the curve. Holding everything else
constant, an increase in price always causes a decrease in
quantity demanded, a movement along a single demand curve.

Economists once believed that potatoes in Ireland during
the famine were Giffen goods. Recent research, however, has
disproved this assertion. Empirically, there are no
upward-sloping demand curves. HTH. - T

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <h4mf48t4lbbpc65sv...@4ax.com>,
Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>... not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand

>curve and a shift in the curve.

If that works for you, enjoy.

[Steve Pope]

Todd Michel McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:

>>... not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand
>>curve and a shift in the curve.

>If that works for you, enjoy.

News flash: potatoes not giffen goods! This is even food related.

I feel my college econ prof should'a mass-emailed all his former
students to inform us they flubbed it, 35 years ago.



Steve

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <k2a0b5$leh$1...@blue-new.rahul.net>,

Steve Pope <spo...@speedymail.org> wrote:
>I feel my college econ prof should'a mass-emailed all his former
>students to inform us they flubbed it, 35 years ago.

I'm not sure they've created enough email capacity for econ profs,
by that standard. Maybe if they move to Nigeria.

[Tony Lima]

It's standard in every micro principles textbook today. Your
information is simply out of date. (I review many of those
textbooks and am quite aware of this issue.) - T

[Eddie Grove]

What's the technical term for when people prefer to buy something simply
because it is priced higher?

For example, there was an experiment shown on the science channel last
week where a group of people, individually, was given two wines to
taste. These were the same, poured into bottles from the same box of
cheap wine. The bottle that appeared more expensive tasted *much*
better to the tasters, simply because they expected a superior product.
This was clearly a situation where the people would be *better off*
paying more for the same product. Makes me want to barf.

There are enough wine posts here that surely someone has knowledge of a
phenomenon I know only third hand. Wineries being unable to sell out of
a wine at priced at $15, but then successfully selling out when raising
the price into the $20 to $30 range. There are a lot of people who just
won't buy wine priced below some breakpoint I am told.


Eddie

[Serene Vannoy]

On 09/08/2012 11:35 AM, Eddie Grove wrote:
> Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:31:26 +0000 (UTC), mcc...@medieval.org
>> (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <h4mf48t4lbbpc65sv...@4ax.com>,
>>> Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>>> ... not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand
>>>> curve and a shift in the curve.
>>>
>>> If that works for you, enjoy.
>>
>> It's standard in every micro principles textbook today. Your
>> information is simply out of date. (I review many of those
>> textbooks and am quite aware of this issue.) - T
>
> What's the technical term for when people prefer to buy something simply
> because it is priced higher?
>
> For example, there was an experiment shown on the science channel last
> week where a group of people, individually, was given two wines to
> taste. These were the same, poured into bottles from the same box of
> cheap wine. The bottle that appeared more expensive tasted *much*
> better to the tasters, simply because they expected a superior product.
> This was clearly a situation where the people would be *better off*
> paying more for the same product. Makes me want to barf.

Yeah, and the fascinating thing to me about that study is they weren't
*wrong*. Their brains actually behaved differently in the pleasure
centers, and they actually did like the wine more. Really interesting stuff.

Serene
--
My food blog: http://www.momfoodproject.com
My small-press literary magazine: http://42magazine.com

[Tony Lima]

Shift of the demand curve caused by a change in
expectations. In cases like this, price is perceived as
more than just a signal of relative scarcity. - T

[spamtrap1888]

On Sep 8, 12:19 pm, Tony Lima <tonyli...@att.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:35:04 -0700, Eddie Grove
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >Tony Lima <tonyli...@att.net> writes:
>
> >> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:31:26 +0000 (UTC), mcc...@medieval.org
> >> (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>

> >>>In article <h4mf48t4lbbpc65svvf3d23fcnmbf9q...@4ax.com>,

> >>>Tony Lima  <tonyli...@att.net> wrote:
> >>>>... not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand
> >>>>curve and a shift in the curve.
>
> >>>If that works for you, enjoy.
>
> >> It's standard in every micro principles textbook today. Your
> >> information is simply out of date. (I review many of those
> >> textbooks and am quite aware of this issue.) - T
>
> >What's the technical term for when people prefer to buy something simply
> >because it is priced higher?
>
> >For example, there was an experiment shown on the science channel last
> >week where a group of people, individually, was given two wines to
> >taste.  These were the same, poured into bottles from the same box of
> >cheap wine.  The bottle that appeared more expensive tasted *much*
> >better to the tasters, simply because they expected a superior product.
> >This was clearly a situation where the people would be *better off*
> >paying more for the same product.  Makes me want to barf.
>
> >There are enough wine posts here that surely someone has knowledge of a
> >phenomenon I know only third hand.  Wineries being unable to sell out of
> >a wine at priced at $15, but then successfully selling out when raising
> >the price into the $20 to $30 range.  There are a lot of people who just
> >won't buy wine priced below some breakpoint I am told.
>

> Shift of the demand curve caused by a change in
> expectations.  In cases like this, price is perceived as
> more than just a signal of relative scarcity. - T

This actually made sense to me -- I must be getting smarter. If people
knew it was Two Buck Chuck they wouldn't pay $10 for it. But if you
called it Chateau D'Esperation, they might.

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <fq0n48lughg9rdrdc...@4ax.com>,

Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:31:26 +0000 (UTC), mcc...@medieval.org
>(Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>In article <h4mf48t4lbbpc65sv...@4ax.com>,
>>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>>... not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand
>>>curve and a shift in the curve.
>>If that works for you, enjoy.
>It's standard in every micro principles textbook today. Your
>information is simply out of date.

Oh, I believe you. It's just that instead of thinking this
distinction is some great insight, I think it's funny.
I hope that clarifies.

[Ciccio]

On Sep 8, 12:25 pm, spamtrap1888 <spamtrap1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This actually made sense to me -- I must be getting smarter. If people
> knew it was Two Buck Chuck they wouldn't pay $10 for it. But if you
> called it Chateau D'Esperation, they might.

Yep, that's like an old joke amongst Italian-Americans:
What's the difference between a sandwich and a panino(i)?...
...$5.

Ciccio

[Tony Lima]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 20:11:52 +0000 (UTC), mcc...@medieval.org

(Todd Michel McComb) wrote:

>In article <fq0n48lughg9rdrdc...@4ax.com>,
>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:31:26 +0000 (UTC), mcc...@medieval.org
>>(Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>>In article <h4mf48t4lbbpc65sv...@4ax.com>,
>>>Tony Lima <tony...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>... not knowing the difference between a movement along a demand
>>>>curve and a shift in the curve.
>>>If that works for you, enjoy.
>>It's standard in every micro principles textbook today. Your
>>information is simply out of date.
>
>Oh, I believe you. It's just that instead of thinking this
>distinction is some great insight, I think it's funny.
>I hope that clarifies.

Turns out it makes quite a bit of difference. But I
appreciate your clarification. - T