we just got here
Flynn
We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
for finding out about the area and the people? And the
restaurants we should try first?
Thanks
Peter L
Welcome Flynn. Hope you find the housing market ok in the Bay Area. I
don't live there, I live in Sacramento (the Dayton of California). But
we just moved up from LA 2 years ago. What I usually do is to read the
paper. Usually the Sunday paper has a listing of events. Sometimes the
farmers' markets are listed there. There is a huge outlet mall south of
San Jose along the 101 in the city of Gilroy. It 's right next to the
freeway. Also check out the alternative newspapers. You get those
either in bookstores or coffee shops. They list all kinds of local
events.
As to restaurants. Wow, you've hit the Motherlode. What can I say.
Just keep reading ba.food. Coming from Dayton, you may end up with
information overload. Just be careful, don't ever mention Lyon's or
Olive Garden in ba.food.
eis...@slacvx.slac.stanford.edu
> Hi.
>
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
> hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
> process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
> questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
> the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
> around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
> for finding out about the area and the people? And the
> restaurants we should try first?
>
The "Bay Area" is a large place, extending of order 100 miles north to south,
and with considerable traffic difficulties (at least on weekdays) getting
between "east bay", "south bay", "north bay", and so forth.
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo County, CA
Amalia Freedman
>
> Hi.
>
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
> hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
> process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
> questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
> the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
> around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
> for finding out about the area and the people? And the
> restaurants we should try first?
>
Welcome!
Try www.sanfrancisco.sidewalk.com (or www.sanjose.sidewalk.com for South
Bay, newer site, possibly not as well developed) and
www.citysearch7.com/San_Francisco for great restaurant recommendations,
as well as reviews of parks and recreation (citysearch is better) and
shopping destinations (sidewalk is better). sidewalk.com for SF is
really good, and both sites run several weekly newsletters on a variety
of topics, you can sign up at the home or topic pages. Those should
bring you up to speed quickly. If you are not familiar with
sidewalk.com, they have a nice map feature to help you find your
destination.
(citysearch bought sidewalk recently, so hopefully we'll get the best of
both from the joint product)
www.sfgate.com, the website for SF Chronicle and Examiner, runs a
comprehensive list of Farmers' Markets on its Food page.
This area is Mecca for on-line food information, and if you post your
preferences, ba.food should be a great resource, too. But it does help
if we know in which area of the Bay you live.
AEF
Other useful sites:
Best of the Bay
http://www.bestofthebay.com/1999/index.html
http://www.bestofthebay.com/1998/index.html
http://www.sfweekly.com/bosf/1999/index.html
http://www.sfweekly.com/bosf/1998/index.html
Trail guides
http://www.mtbinfo.com/trails/Region.asp?ID=24
http://www.marintrails.com/
Meals/Groceries on line:
http://www.cookexpress.com/ceStore/store.asp
http://www.peapod.com/
Volunteer opportunities:
http://www.hosf.org/
Public Radio/TV:
http://www.kqed.org/
Other links:
http://home.digitalcity.com/sanfrancisco/webguide/main.dci
Dennis Suchta
Saturday on the Embarcadero and Green. Mountain View has one
on sunday (I haven't been there in a while so it may have
changed). Outlet malls are between san jose and gilroy off
101. Berkeley is a nice saturday trip. Pick up bread at
Acme, have coffee at Fannys, cheese from the cheese board,
lunch at the mexican place on fourth (forget the name but
its run by Alice Waters son in law), beer at the pyramid
brewery ride up into the hills to the science center, listen
to the drums on the campus near telegraph. For a first trip
to sf, I'd go to North Beach. have dinner at Capps corner
($13.95 includes soup, salad and entre), Sodinis or New
Pisa. This is the PAST but a good into to sf how it use to
be.
Dennis
Steve Pope
><yyf...@highAndDamnedriver.com> wrote:
>> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
>> Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
>> hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
>> process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
>> questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
>> the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
>> around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
>> for finding out about the area and the people? And the
>> restaurants we should try first?
>There are farmers markets in San Jose, Sunnyvale, and Mountain View in
>the South Bay; those are the only ones I know about.
Somewhere, there is an online list of Bay Area framers
markets; perhaps someone will be kind enough to post the link
for it.
My favorite farmer's market is the Thursday morning one
at the San Rafael Civic Center. (Conveniently enough,
one can during the same trip to buy coffee beans at
Graffeo, and have a taco at Taqueria San Jose -- both
in San Rafael.)
Steve
>
>There's an outlet mall in Gillroy; I think they claim to be the largest
>outdoor outlet mall west of the Mississippi (or maybe in the country);
>there's the Great Mall of the Bay Area in Milpitas; there's one just
>off 880 in or near Alameda; there's one just off 80 in Vacaville;
>there's one or two in Napa Valley. There probably are more, but I
>don't know about them.
>
>--Michelle
>
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Michelle Steiner | Hard as it may be to believe, my |
>| mich...@michelle.org | life has been based on a true story. |
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
IClast
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> Where are the outlet malls around here? Besides just exploring,
> what do you suggest for finding out about the area and the people?
For a start, you can look at:
www.dejanews.com/group/dejanews.members.travel.iclast.sfo4tourists
> And the restaurants we should try first?
Were your questions not so vague, the answers to all of them would
appear here.
For example, the San Francisco Bay Area is about the size of Switzerland
and you've provided no clue to where you might be. Are you willing to
drive 150 miles, one way, to the farmers' market open today or wait 'til
tomorrow for the one that's open a five minute walk from your home?
We have two outlet malls here: Stonestown near Nineteenth Avenue and
State College and San Francisco Centre on Market at Fifth. I recommend
neither. We have great stores that would welcome your patronage. There's
a discount mall in Barstow, about 350 miles from my home.
The restaurants you should try first is easy to answer: The best ones
close to your home that you can afford with cuisines with which you have
absolutely no familiarity whatsoever. I, and I presume _we_, have no
idea to what restaurants we should send you as you've given us nary a
clue as to what would be suitable.
--
Icono Clast -- A San Franciscan posting from San Francisco
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Pete Fraser
Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:37CF5C34...@uswest.net...
> lunch at the mexican place on fourth (forget the name but
> its run by Alice Waters son in law)
It's on 6th, just south of Gilman, and is named Picante.
David Hatunen
>We have two outlet malls here: Stonestown near Nineteenth Avenue
>and State College and San Francisco Centre on Market at Fifth. I
>recommend neither. We have great stores that would welcome your
>patronage. There's a discount mall in Barstow, about 350 miles
>from my home.
Um. Those aren't *outlet* malls; those are upscale malls. VAcaville
and Gilroy have outlet malls, fortunately much, much closer than
Barstow and a lot less god-forsaken.
>The restaurants you should try first is easy to answer: The best ones
>close to your home that you can afford with cuisines with which you have
>absolutely no familiarity whatsoever. I, and I presume _we_, have no
>idea to what restaurants we should send you as you've given us nary a
>clue as to what would be suitable.
Sometimes IC and I actually agree on something and this is one of
them. The first thing to do is try various restaurants in your own
neighborhood; the Bay ARea in general and SF in particular have
many fine ndighborhood restaurants where a third of the price you
pay isn't going to pay for chi-chi decor. You'll gradually find out
where the special occasion restaurants are.
AS others have pointed out, it would help a lot if you told us jsut
what neighborhood that might be. This is a far cry from a little
place like Dayton.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Dennis Suchta
not remember the streets.
Dennis
Dan Abel
eis...@slacvx.slac.stanford.edu wrote:
> The "Bay Area" is a large place, extending of order 100 miles north to south,
> and with considerable traffic difficulties (at least on weekdays) getting
> between "east bay", "south bay", "north bay", and so forth.
You know, if they'd just fill in that damn shallow puddle in the middle,
it would make getting around one heck of a lot easier. Not to mention
relieve the land and housing shortage.
:-)
--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
ab...@sonoma.edu
http://www.sonoma.edu/IT/AIS/people/Abel.html
Steve Pope
>Um. Those aren't *outlet* malls; those are upscale malls. Vacaville
>and Gilroy have outlet malls, fortunately much, much closer than
>Barstow and a lot less god-forsaken.
There is an expansive outlet mall on the north end of Petaluma.
Also, there are outlets in a shopping center in (I think)
San Leandro, including an Norstrom outlet.
Steve
Glenn Mandelkern
Napa Highway 29, by the First Street exit
Tracy Highway 205, by the MacArthur exit
Some outlet centers in California are operated by a company named Horizon.
Others are operated by a company named Premier. (I think they're in the
process of erecting Web sites.) When visiting one of these outlet centers,
stop by the information area and look for brochures listing where
their other outlet centers are located.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Mandelkern "Hee, hee, hee, hee!" -- Questor the Elf
gma...@netcom.com
San Jose, CA
Icono Clast
> > > its run by Alice Waters son in law)
> > It's on 6th, just south of Gilman, and is named Picante.
Damn! The last time someone mentioned it here it was said to be at
Fourth and Gilman. We've twice failed to find it. Now we know to look
on Sixth. We'll try to find it on the 15th, our next trip overseas
but is it open for dinner? We'd be arriving around 19:30.
--
ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
Steve Pope
>> > It's on 6th, just south of Gilman, and is named Picante.
>Damn! The last time someone mentioned it here it was said to be at
>Fourth and Gilman. We've twice failed to find it. Now we know to look
>on Sixth.
Have you ever considered consulting sources of information
other than the internet... such as a phone book or directory
assistance?
And, tangentially, Picante is a useful restaurant if you're
in the area, and certainly has better food than the nearby
Pyramid brewpub, but I myself would not elevate the place
to the level of a destination restaurant. There is much
better Mexican food around.
Steve
Matt Ackeret
Steve Pope <s...@bob.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>
>>> > It's on 6th, just south of Gilman, and is named Picante.
>
>>Damn! The last time someone mentioned it here it was said to be at
>>Fourth and Gilman. We've twice failed to find it. Now we know to look
>>on Sixth.
>
>Have you ever considered consulting sources of information
>other than the internet... such as a phone book or directory
>assistance?
What? there EXIST other sources of information than the Internet?
Wow dude. (heh heh)
--
mat...@area.com
Pete Fraser
Matt Ackeret <mat...@area.com> wrote in message
news:7qpk75$sn2$1...@vax.area.com...
It's also not so easy if you don't know the name. Although I've been
hearing an advert for a "better" directory assistance.
"Hello. operator. Can you give me the phone number for the
good Mexican place around Gilman and fourth that's owned by
a relative of Alice Waters?"
Micki
Congrats on your job and the move, and making it an easy transition.
It's usually a real pain to relocate this area, so I'm glad to see that
you write in good humor and not as if you're tearing your hair out.
I've only relocated once, but when I did I went through a service that
had amassed all kinds of information on my city - this was a few years
ago. They found us lists of shopping areas, the "10 Best" lists for the
whole city, and they even found me a gym - which was sort of more than
I'd expected.
I didn't go through JobDirect, which I hear is mainly for entry level
college grads. I don't even know if they handled your relocation, but
whoever you're referring to should be contacted. Mine may have been
unique, but I would still contact them directly and see if they have a
package or something for you now that you're here. Relocaters usually
know what's important to new residents. They can think of things that
you may not even know you need.
Welcome - and try Eo's in Cole Valley if you're in SF.
> Hi.
>
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
> hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
> process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
> questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
> the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
> around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
> for finding out about the area and the people? And the
> restaurants we should try first?
>
> Thanks
>
>
Mike Shepard
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> for finding out about the area and the people?
Try http://www.metroactive.com or pick up
the local Bay Area Metro weekly paper.
Dennis Suchta
great lunch place. I havent been there for dinner. Its also a constantly
changing/improving restaurant. I wouldnt be surprised if its aim ends up
higher. It is a good mexican restaurant.
The beer is better at pyramid.
Dennis
Steve Pope wrote:
> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>
> >> > It's on 6th, just south of Gilman, and is named Picante.
>
> >Damn! The last time someone mentioned it here it was said to be at
> >Fourth and Gilman. We've twice failed to find it. Now we know to look
> >on Sixth.
>
> Have you ever considered consulting sources of information
> other than the internet... such as a phone book or directory
> assistance?
>
Dennis Suchta
Dennis
Icono Clast wrote:
> Dennis Suchta wrote:
> > Pete Fraser wrote:
> > > Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote in message
> > > > lunch at the mexican place on fourth (forget the name but
> > > > its run by Alice Waters son in law)
>
> > > It's on 6th, just south of Gilman, and is named Picante.
>
> Damn! The last time someone mentioned it here it was said to be at
> Fourth and Gilman. We've twice failed to find it. Now we know to look
IClast
> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >Damn! The last time someone mentioned it here it was said to be at
> >Fourth and Gilman. We've twice failed to find it. Now we know to look
> >on Sixth.
>
> other than the internet... such as a phone book or directory
> assistance?
I've given up on finding 'phone books at pay 'phones on the street and
I'll be damn'd if I'll pay $0.35, or any other price, to call
Information.
> And, tangentially, Picante is a useful restaurant if you're
> in the area,
Each time we sought to eat there, we were on our way to dance at
Ashkenaz. I wouldn't dream leaving town just to eat at a Mexican
restaurant.
> There is much better Mexican food around.
We've eaten at a little family-type Mexican place on San Pablo near
Ashkenaz. Nothing to recommend it nor to avoid it.
Icono Clast
> relieve the land and housing shortage.
We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
highways. We do NOT have a housing shortage; everyone who lives here
has a place to live here. We have an excess of population who must
move on to some place that can accommodate them. We've already
accommodated thrice as many people as we should have and our quality
of life has significantly diminished because of having done so and
our local culture has all but disappeared.
Icono Clast
> >Um. Those aren't *outlet* malls; those are upscale malls.
Hunh? I've been to malls such as Stonestown and San Francisco Centre,
Serramonte, the one in Palo Alto, the one in Barstow, and the one in
Minneapolis that has a flat-rail steel-coaster, and the one in
Scottsdale that has what they call a "food court" (not bad). Other
than the architecture and presence of amenities such as statuary,
flowers, and fountains, I fail to see how they differ.
mus...@inreach.com
>We have more land than ever
Where *is* this "new" land? (You're not referring to the proposed new
runways at SFO, are you?)
>We have an excess of population who must move on to some
>place that can accommodate them.
Hmmm, I think the Ohlones, Miwoks, etc. could have a little chat with
you about this. Perhaps they would suggest that *you* move on.
>We've already accommodated thrice as many people as we should
>have and our quality of life has significantly diminished because of
>having done so and our local culture has all but disappeared.
See comment above. That was sure some nice "welcome" message,
XenoPhobe, I mean IconoClast.
BTW, mall info for the newcomers: try the Great Mall in Milpitas.
Lots of off-price outlet-type stores. Sounds like what you are
looking for, and probably closer than Petaluma (depending on where you
live).
musette
Tony Lima
<ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
>> >Um. Those aren't *outlet* malls; those are upscale malls.
>
>Hunh? I've been to malls such as Stonestown and San Francisco Centre,
>Serramonte, the one in Palo Alto, the one in Barstow, and the one in
>Minneapolis that has a flat-rail steel-coaster, and the one in
>Scottsdale that has what they call a "food court" (not bad). Other
>than the architecture and presence of amenities such as statuary,
>flowers, and fountains, I fail to see how they differ.
There's your problem. You've never been to an outlet mall.
- Tony
David Hatunen
>David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
>> >Um. Those aren't *outlet* malls; those are upscale malls.
>
>Hunh? I've been to malls such as Stonestown and San Francisco
>Centre, Serramonte, the one in Palo Alto, the one in Barstow, and
>the one in Minneapolis that has a flat-rail steel-coaster, and the
>one in Scottsdale that has what they call a "food court" (not
>bad). Other than the architecture and presence of amenities such
>as statuary, flowers, and fountains, I fail to see how they
>differ.
I'm totally unfamiliar with the one in Barstow, but the others
aren't considered "outlet" malls.
An outlet mall has a number of stores which are, purportedly,
direct factory outlet stores. This supposedly makes the prices
lower, but it also means many manufacturers push their seconds
there, which can be a good deal or a bad deal.
Consumer Reports recently had an article on outlet malls; you might
look it up.
David Hatunen
>Dan Abel wrote:
>> relieve the land and housing shortage.
>
>We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
>highways.
Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least not usable
land. Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable to any
purpose but preservation.
>We do NOT have a housing shortage; everyone who lives here
>has a place to live here. We have an excess of population who must
>move on to some place that can accommodate them. We've already
>accommodated thrice as many people as we should have and our
>quality of life has significantly diminished because of having
>done so and our local culture has all but disappeared.
Odd. MY quality of life went up when I moved here from Kansas. You
spend too much time dwelling on the past.
Icono Clast
> Where *is* this "new" land?
East of Sansome and First streets, for example, and all around The
Bay where vast portions of it have been filled in and, for the most
part, paved over.
> (You're not referring to the proposed new runways at SFO, are you?)
Hell no! I oppose doing that even though I make several flights a
year and have suffered extended delays.
> >We have an excess of population who must move on to some
> >place that can accommodate them.
> Hmmm, I think the Ohlones, Miwoks, etc. could have a little chat with
> you about this.
It would be better for the land, of course, were they still running
things but we know they're not. We also know that their demise was
primarily the result of the cruelties and diseases of Catholics and
Spaniards.
> Perhaps they would suggest that *you* move on.
Perhaps. I have zonko personal and familial seniority, though, and
would be among the last to be asked to leave.
> >We've already accommodated thrice as many people as we should
> >have and our quality of life has significantly diminished because of
> >having done so and our local culture has all but disappeared.
> See comment above. That was sure some nice "welcome" message,
> XenoPhobe, I mean IconoClast.
If you choose to call looking out the window and seeing the throngs
of people and the jams of traffic caused by housing and freeways
xenophobia, you may. I don't. I call it a recognition of the source
of the things about which people consistently complain and of
front-page newspaper reports.
I do NOT welcome greater population. I do NOT welcome greater
population density. I do NOT welcome traffic congestion. I do NOT
welcome longer lines. I do NOT welcome water shortages caused by
excessive use. I do NOT welcome pollution of air, water, or physical
space. I do NOT welcome a diminishment of views. I do NOT welcome
wildlife moving into my back yard because you moved into its front
yard. I do NOT welcome any franchise business of any sort whatsoever!
I do NOT welcome the loss of my (San Francisco's) culture. I do NOT
welcome sub- and ex-urban sprawl. I do NOT welcome paved over
orchards (take a drive along Highway Nine with a picture in your hand
[or mind] of the avenue of blossoms it once was).
I believe that the people of this planet face no greater problem
than that of themselves and their number.
In the late '50s or early '60s, a friend of mine said that we would
"be the last generation to know what it's like to enjoy Yosemite". I
knew what she meant then and I've experienced what she meant since.
She, too, had looked out the window.
Longer than 35 years ago, I was laughed out of City Hall for
imploring our leaders to stop building housing and freeways because
they were the sources of our problems. I knew that because I'd looked
out the window. I'm still looking out the window and all that I see
is less pleasant than it was, more congested and dirtier (would you
believe that before the Hippies San Francisco was known as just about
the cleanest city in North America?).
I'm not a xenophobe, Musette. I've seen what's happened to my home
and its environs and I don't like it.
In spite of all the worsification and uglyfying and franchisation
that's happened here, it's still better than elsewhere. But being
relatively better than somewhere else is a long way from being what
we, in my experience, were and could and should but won't be because
we're thrice as many as we have lebensraum. You've probably had
occasion to notice.
Bill Rohwer
Who "we" includes and excludes is, of course, a central issue. Perhaps
one's discomfort should lead to a consideration of one's relocation.
--
-- Bill Rohwer
w...@violet.berkeley.edu
Steve Pope
>"Hello. operator. Can you give me the phone number for the
>good Mexican place around Gilman and fourth that's owned by
>a relative of Alice Waters?"
Phrased thusly, you could simply call Chez Paniess and
ask *them* where the damned restaurant is....
S.
IClast
> <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >Hunh? I've been to malls such as . . . I fail to see how they differ.
> There's your problem. You've never been to an outlet mall.
Oh. Apparently there is some difference. Please enlighten me.
IClast
> I'm totally unfamiliar with the one in Barstow, but the others
> aren't considered "outlet" malls.
Per your paragraph below, I guess it's an "outlet mall". You can get
Bally brand shoes there for about half of what they are on Stockton
Street. It's worth a stop on your way to Death Valley or 'Vegas.
> An outlet mall has a number of stores which are, purportedly,
> direct factory outlet stores. This supposedly makes the prices
> lower, but it also means many manufacturers push their seconds
> there, which can be a good deal or a bad deal.
Thank you, Dave. TONY LIMA: Please ignore my request for enlightenment
unless you disagree with what Dave said.
> Consumer Reports recently had an article on outlet malls; you might
> look it up.
Thank you.
IClast
> >Dan Abel wrote:
> >> the land and housing shortage.
Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
> >highways.
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
> Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least
> not usable land.
Aha! A qualification!
> Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
> organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable
> to any purpose but preservation.
Bravo! Raise my taxes; buy more land for parks.
> > We've already accommodated thrice as many people as we should
> > have and our quality of life has significantly diminished
> > because of having done so and our local culture has all but
> > disappeared.
> Odd. MY quality of life went up when I moved here from Kansas.
Not odd at all. Since you moved to the best place on Earth to live, any
other place is a lesser place and your quality of life would have to
improve. But each person who increases our population also diminishes
our quality of life. You, on the other hand, have adopted a child and by
making one already living a member of your family rather than creating a
new one, have compensated for what you have done to our quality of life
and have broken even on my ledger
> You spend too much time dwelling on the past.
Perhaps. I know what it's like to drive down The Peninsula and know
which town I'm in because there was an end to one and a beginning of the
next. I know what it's like to be atop Twin Peaks on a spectacularly
clear night to look overseas and be able to see divisions between the
many towns over there. Now there's a solid string of lights from as far
North as one can see to as far South as one can see. It's impossible to
tell one place from another with the exceptions of Berkeley, Oakland,
and Alameda.
You're not all that much younger than I, Dave. You know what it's like
to live in an uncrowded world.
Tony Lima
wrote:
>Tony...@ms.spacebbs.com wrote:
>> <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>> >Hunh? I've been to malls such as . . . I fail to see how they differ.
>
>> There's your problem. You've never been to an outlet mall.
>
>Oh. Apparently there is some difference. Please enlighten me.
Others on this thread have pointed to several true outlet
malls. Take a road trip and visit one of them. - Tony
David Hatunen
>
>East of Sansome and First streets, for example, and all around The
>Bay where vast portions of it have been filled in and, for the most
>part, paved over.
Ah. some of us forgot. You mean only within the City and county of
San Francisco, don't you? A community with so much available land
it had to move its cemeteries to Colma, its jail to San Bruno, its
arena - the Cow Palace - in Daly City, and a golf course and park
in Pacifica. SF does indeed have more land than ever.
Unfortunately, much of it is other communities' land.
But we forgot that you couldn't possible be referring to the Bay
Area, but only to your provincial little part of it.
[...]
David Hatunen
I think your true colors are adequately shown in what you have
written thus far. You have simply marginilized yourself in a
newsgroup such as this.
[...]
>Perhaps. I know what it's like to drive down The Peninsula and know
>which town I'm in because there was an end to one and a beginning of the
>next. I know what it's like to be atop Twin Peaks on a spectacularly
>clear night to look overseas and be able to see divisions between the
>many towns over there. Now there's a solid string of lights from as far
>North as one can see to as far South as one can see. It's impossible to
>tell one place from another with the exceptions of Berkeley, Oakland,
>and Alameda.
Have you checked with the Ohlone about how they feel about it?
>You're not all that much younger than I, Dave. You know what it's
>like to live in an uncrowded world.
I do indeed. And I prefer urban areas. But I find this curious that
you idealize uncrowded worlds while continuing to live in SF. But,
of course, you consider the Peninsula to be Colonial San Francisco
and you lament the loss of your colonies, don't you?
San Francisco paved and constructed over almost all of its
available land, wiping out the broad primitive expanse of sand
dunes now called the Sunset in the process, and now you have th
chutzpah to tell others not to do it. And why? So YOU can enjoy
THEIR land. I suggest that by rights you should stay in San
Francisco and stop trying to tell San Mateo and Santa Clara
Countians what they should do with their land. Despite your
opinions as a San Franciscan that you and your ilk should be, by
divine right, lords of all they survey, you ain't.
It's 1999. Learn to live with it.
Dennis Suchta
is no doubting the truth in IC's post.
Dennis
Bill Rohwer wrote:
> In article <37D1AB72...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>
Dennis Suchta
and support IC's contention
Dennis
\
David Hatunen wrote:
> In article <37D1AB72...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >mus...@inreach.com wrote:
> >> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >> >We have more land than ever
> >
> >> Where *is* this "new" land?
> >
> >East of Sansome and First streets, for example, and all around The
> >Bay where vast portions of it have been filled in and, for the most
> >part, paved over.
>
> Ah. some of us forgot. You mean only within the City and county of
> San Francisco, don't you? A community with so much available land
> it had to move its cemeteries to Colma, its jail to San Bruno, its
> arena - the Cow Palace - in Daly City, and a golf course and park
> in Pacifica. SF does indeed have more land than ever.
> Unfortunately, much of it is other communities' land.
>
> But we forgot that you couldn't possible be referring to the Bay
> Area, but only to your provincial little part of it.
>
> [...]
>
Dennis Suchta
place to live in the past. The bay area is still the best place to live now.
It use to be better, it could have been more, it also is what it is now.
Watch the news on any station in the city. SF's business is the past. There
are constant stories about labor strife in the 30's, hippies in the 60's,
gay migration in the 70's, beats in the 50's. The 90's is mourning for what
has been lost. I wish my parents moved here after the war so I wouldnt have
had to pay the outrageous rents. I like to hear from people who are from
here, the changes they witnessed.
Dennis
David Hatunen wrote:
Dennis Suchta
Dennis
David Hatunen
But it is highly recommended if you intend to shoot your mouth off
on the subject.
Matt Ackeret
>> There is much better Mexican food around.
>
>We've eaten at a little family-type Mexican place on San Pablo near
>Ashkenaz. Nothing to recommend it nor to avoid it.
One of the columnists in the SJ Mercury is doing an interesting series on
finding the best tacos. I'm not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like
Taco Bell but that doesn't count), but it's still interesting to read about
the different places.
--
mat...@area.com
RDK
of what your looking for:-)
RDK
Nate
yyf...@highAndDamnedriver.com (Flynn) wrote:
> Hi.
>
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
> hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
> process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
> questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
> the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
> around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
> for finding out about the area and the people? And the
> restaurants we should try first?
>
> Thanks
>
>
Like everyone else said, you really need to tell people where you've
moved to. The Bay Area is bigger than Massachusetts, and info on
farmers markets and restaurants in Gilroy probably won't be much help to
you if you're in Benicia, for example.
--
-Nate in Berkeley, California
IClast
> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >mus...@inreach.com wrote:
> >> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >> >We have more land than ever
> >> Where *is* this "new" land?
> >East of Sansome and First streets, for example, and all around The
> >Bay where vast portions of it have been filled in and, for the most
> >part, paved over.
> Ah. some of us forgot. You mean only within the City and county of
> San Francisco, don't you?
No, as should be apparent from your quote of me above.
> A community with so much available land it had to move its cemeteries
> to Colma, its jail to San Bruno, its arena - the Cow Palace - in Daly
> City, and a golf course and park in Pacifica. SF does indeed have more
> land than ever. Unfortunately, much of it is other communities' land.
You didn't mention The Airport. We are the largest property tax payer in
San Mateo County.
> But we forgot that you couldn't possible be referring to the Bay
> Area, but only to your provincial little part of it.
Usually you'd be correct. In this instance you're mistaken. 'Sawrite.
***
A slight veer of subject:
In my youth, I read about all the floods that happened in the East
almost every year causing much loss of life and property. I remember
asking my mother why California didn't suffer such disasters. She didn't
know. Now, however, we do have those floods for the obvious reasons:
I, my mother, and you know that the trees and grasses and wetlands that
once soaked up all the water have been uprooted and paved over. Now we
have floods, too. This does not fill me with a sense of pride. It does
confirm my belief that change isn't necessarily progress and "progress"
is often not.
--
Icono Clast -- A San Franciscan posting from San Francisco
slant_eyed_louie
<snip>
> One of the columnists in the SJ Mercury is doing an interesting series on
> finding the best tacos. I'm not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like
> Taco Bell but that doesn't count), but it's still interesting to read about
> the different places.
..."not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like Taco Bell but that
doesn't count)....
OH MY GOD!!
HOW DOES ONE RESPOND TO "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican
food"....
I've seen some REALLY, REALLY, REEEEAALLLY STUPID FUCKS!
Is THIS *S-T-U-P-I-D* *F_U_C_K* JUST ARRIVED FROM (?)
LAND-O-FUCK-OF-EXPOSURE??
Kenneth Crudup
>HOW DOES ONE RESPOND TO "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican food"....
Well, it *happens*. I couldn't give a shit about Mexican food, but TB is
passible for the 2-3 times a year when I want tacos.
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup, Unix Software Consultant, Scott County Consulting
Home1: 8051 Newell St. #914 Silver Spring, MD 20910-0914 (301) 562-1922
Home2: 5355 Farwell Pl. #242 Fremont, CA 94536-7222 (510) 794-8040
Work: 19420 Homestead Road Cupertino, CA 95014 (408) 447-6654
Bracey
Welcome to the Bay Area.
Local Farmer's Markets listings can be found at http://cafarmersmkts.com/.
There are markets all over the Bay Area, almost daily.
Outlets are listed in Sally Socolich's _Bargain Hunting in the Bay Area_
(revised frequently), found in any local bookstore.
Bracey
Flynn wrote in message ...
Bruce Byrd
Matt Ackeret
>Matt Ackeret wrote:
>>
>> In article <7qqn6p$tkt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, IClast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> One of the columnists in the SJ Mercury is doing an interesting series on
>> finding the best tacos. I'm not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like
>> Taco Bell but that doesn't count), but it's still interesting to read about
>> the different places.
>
>..."not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like Taco Bell but that
>doesn't count)....
>
>OH MY GOD!!
>
>food"....
Hey moron.. I've lived here effectively all of my life (since I was 1).
--
mat...@area.com
slant_eyed_louie
>
> In article <37D37A...@the.net>, slant_eyed_louie <wa...@the.net> wrote:
> >Matt Ackeret wrote:
> >
> >HOW DOES ONE RESPOND TO "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican
> >food"....
> ...
>
> Hey moron.. I've lived here effectively all of my life (since I was 1).
HEY GENIUS, you posted: "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican
food"....
NOW ANALYZE WHAT I QUOTED FROM YOU.
STILL DON'T GET IT??
HINT: Taco Bell.....Mexican food.....
HINT: Dominoes Pizza......Italian food.....
David Hatunen
>hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
>> A community with so much available land it had to move its cemeteries
>> to Colma, its jail to San Bruno, its arena - the Cow Palace - in Daly
>> City, and a golf course and park in Pacifica. SF does indeed have more
>> land than ever. Unfortunately, much of it is other communities' land.
>
>You didn't mention The Airport. We are the largest property tax payer in
>San Mateo County.
You're right; that's mostly new land. The bay was filled in to do
it. Even the old airport was built on old wetlands. Toeay, though,
as SFO is finding out, it ain't so easy to fill in the bay and
wetlands.
>A slight veer of subject:
>
>In my youth, I read about all the floods that happened in the East
>almost every year causing much loss of life and property. I remember
>asking my mother why California didn't suffer such disasters. She didn't
>know. Now, however, we do have those floods for the obvious reasons:
>
>I, my mother, and you know that the trees and grasses and wetlands
>that once soaked up all the water have been uprooted and paved
>over. Now we have floods, too. This does not fill me with a sense
>of pride. It does confirm my belief that change isn't necessarily
>progress and "progress" is often not.
They had floods in California long before Europeans arrived. They
just didn't make the news. The Central Valley was entirely flooded
almost evey year before the dams were built. In fact, preventing
those floods was one of the justifications used for building the
dams.
I can show you historical records of flooding in Palo Alto going
pretty far back, but no one cared when the land was largely farm
land.
Ask any soils engineer how much ancient flood deposited alluvium he
finds in soil borings.
You need to stay away from subjects you don't know much about, and
ancient hydrology is one of them.
This is not to say that paving and construction haven't exacerbated
the situation in some places, of course. But long range weather
conditions do change somewhat cyclically. Palo Alto had several
floods in the mid-1950s, but none of consequence again until 1998.
David Hatunen
Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote:
>Why is everyone attacking an obvious statement of fact? SF was a
>better place to live in the past.
Why do you think this is "obvious"? Was it better in the past for
the Chinese when they weren't allowed to live outside of Chinatown?
Was it really that good for Blacks or Hispanics? Were IC's much
flouted unions and their members living in some sort of union
paradise before WW2? Was it better way back when the newly arrived
Americans found ways to get the land away from almost all of the
Californios? When corrupt mayors who make Willy Brown look like
Ralph Nader were pocketing public tax money and skillfully
eliminating their opponents? Or was it when the Committes of
Vigilance decide they were above the law? When the police were
arresting people for printing Allen Ginsberg? Just When was this
Golden Era?
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
>The bay area is still the best place to live now. It use to be
>better, it could have been more, it also is what it is now. Watch
>the news on any station in the city. SF's business is the past.
>There are constant stories about labor strife in the 30's, hippies
>in the 60's, gay migration in the 70's, beats in the 50's. The
??? Why was it *better*? Because there weren't any unions, any
hippies, any gays? Because the Chinese knew their place?
>90's is mourning for what has been lost. I wish my parents moved
>here after the war so I wouldnt have had to pay the outrageous
>rents. I like to hear from people who are from here, the changes
>they witnessed.
Changes are interesting. History is interesting, but you need to
read it carefully.
IClast
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
> In article <37D2E895...@uswest.net>,
> Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote:
> >Why is everyone attacking an obvious statement of fact? SF was a
> >better place to live in the past.
> Why do you think this is "obvious"? Was it better in the past for
> the Chinese when they weren't allowed to live outside of Chinatown?
My memory of Dr. Sing Lee's purchase of a home in Saint Francis Wood and
the vehement protest of the residents there is vivid. I was horribly
embarrassed by that incident and again when, a few years later, baseball
player Willy Mayes suffered the same treatment.
> Was it really that good for Blacks or Hispanics? Were IC's much
> flouted unions and their members living in some sort of union
> paradise before WW2?
The post-War Fillmore district was an economically-mixed, primarily
Black center of art and culture [The Black population increased during
the war and they moved into the previously Japanese Fillmore because
the Japanese were thrown into concentration camps.]. It also had our
Black hotel that accommodated travellers when it was sometimes difficult
for them to get into other places.
San Francisco is the site of the most successful general strike in the
history of the USA. A monument at Mission and Spear commemorates it.
Fact is, the wages and conditions in my union, especially here and in
Manhattan, were just about the best in the USA all the way through the
'70s or so when technology started to make our skills, that took years
to master, worth far less. Today we're average wage earners but we used
to be the highest paid industrial workers in the world with the most
holidays, longest vacations, among the shortest hours, and best working
conditions. Many (yes, "many", not a few) of my co-workers are
millionaires because of those good times. They still work for the same
reason as I: We enjoy it!
> Was it better way back when the newly arrived
> Americans found ways to get the land away from almost all of the
> Californios? When corrupt mayors who make Willy Brown look like
> Ralph Nader were pocketing public tax money and skillfully
> eliminating their opponents?
Perhaps the most corrupt of them built City Hall!
> Or was it when the Committes of
> Vigilance decide they were above the law?
Much of what you mention is before my time. Yes, the history of San
Francisco is rife with the attitudes and problems of the times but here
the queues of the Chinese were cut off. In Seattle, for example, it was
their heads.
> When the police were arresting people for printing Allen Ginsberg?
> Just When was this Golden Era?
And arresting Lenny Bruce, too. And the guerrilla theatre troupe. But
look at the freedom of expression we have today because of what happened
here.
> Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
> ??? Why was it *better*? Because there weren't any unions, any
> hippies, any gays? Because the Chinese knew their place?
My mother dates her use of the word "gay" for homosexual to 1932. I
cannot remember when I learned it but probably when I was younger than
ten. I was aware of homosexuals, and knew many, for as long as I can
remember. There were many gay bars in town, particularly the Black Cat
and the 585 [Post Street] Club. They were widely known to people in
general and Polk Gulch was a gay center much as Eureka Valley is now.
There weren't the throngs then as now but when in Polk Gulch you knew
you were in a gay neighborhood.
> Changes are interesting. History is interesting, but you need to
> read it carefully.
As Dennis Suchta has been kind enough to notice, the overall quality of
life here has diminished. Yes, there's blood in our past and perhaps in
our future. Yes, we had wide-spread discrimination. Yes, we're guilty of
most of the things of which the state and country are also guilty. But
almost every social negative you can cite was less severe here than
elsewhere and almost every social positive you can cite was stronger
here than elsewhere.
Dennis Suchta
chose to go back to the previous century. Last I checked we were
talking about Yosemite before the crowds, SF before the high rents and
a bay area that still had farms. But I think you've proved IC's point
by your misdirection. Would you rather live here now defending wealth
or live here previously when noble issues had to be addressed?
Dennis
David Hatunen wrote:
> In article <37D2E895...@uswest.net>,
> Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote:
> >Why is everyone attacking an obvious statement of fact? SF was a
> >better place to live in the past.
>
> Why do you think this is "obvious"? Was it better in the past for
> the Chinese when they weren't allowed to live outside of Chinatown?
> Was it really that good for Blacks or Hispanics? Were IC's much
> flouted unions and their members living in some sort of union
> paradise before WW2? Was it better way back when the newly arrived
> Americans found ways to get the land away from almost all of the
> Californios? When corrupt mayors who make Willy Brown look like
> Ralph Nader were pocketing public tax money and skillfully
> eliminating their opponents? Or was it when the Committes of
> Vigilance decide they were above the law? When the police were
> arresting people for printing Allen Ginsberg? Just When was this
> Golden Era?
>
> Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
>
> >The bay area is still the best place to live now. It use to be
> >better, it could have been more, it also is what it is now. Watch
> >the news on any station in the city. SF's business is the past.
> >There are constant stories about labor strife in the 30's, hippies
> >in the 60's, gay migration in the 70's, beats in the 50's. The
>
> ??? Why was it *better*? Because there weren't any unions, any
> hippies, any gays? Because the Chinese knew their place?
>
> >90's is mourning for what has been lost. I wish my parents moved
> >here after the war so I wouldnt have had to pay the outrageous
> >rents. I like to hear from people who are from here, the changes
> >they witnessed.
>
> Changes are interesting. History is interesting, but you need to
> read it carefully.
>
Dennis Suchta
Dennis
IClast wrote:
> In article <7r28t1$d6u$1...@ultra.sonic.net>,
> hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
> > In article <37D2E895...@uswest.net>,
> > Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote:
> > >Why is everyone attacking an obvious statement of fact? SF was a
> > >better place to live in the past.
>
> > Why do you think this is "obvious"? Was it better in the past for
> > the Chinese when they weren't allowed to live outside of Chinatown?
>
> My memory of Dr. Sing Lee's purchase of a home in Saint Francis Wood and
> the vehement protest of the residents there is vivid. I was horribly
> embarrassed by that incident and again when, a few years later, baseball
> player Willy Mayes suffered the same treatment.
>
> > Was it really that good for Blacks or Hispanics? Were IC's much
> > flouted unions and their members living in some sort of union
> > paradise before WW2?
>
> The post-War Fillmore district was an economically-mixed, primarily
> Black center of art and culture [The Black population increased during
> the war and they moved into the previously Japanese Fillmore because
> the Japanese were thrown into concentration camps.]. It also had our
> Black hotel that accommodated travellers when it was sometimes difficult
> for them to get into other places.
>
> San Francisco is the site of the most successful general strike in the
> history of the USA. A monument at Mission and Spear commemorates it.
>
> Fact is, the wages and conditions in my union, especially here and in
> Manhattan, were just about the best in the USA all the way through the
> '70s or so when technology started to make our skills, that took years
> to master, worth far less. Today we're average wage earners but we used
> to be the highest paid industrial workers in the world with the most
> holidays, longest vacations, among the shortest hours, and best working
> conditions. Many (yes, "many", not a few) of my co-workers are
> millionaires because of those good times. They still work for the same
> reason as I: We enjoy it!
>
> > Was it better way back when the newly arrived
> > Americans found ways to get the land away from almost all of the
> > Californios? When corrupt mayors who make Willy Brown look like
> > Ralph Nader were pocketing public tax money and skillfully
> > eliminating their opponents?
>
> Perhaps the most corrupt of them built City Hall!
>
> > Or was it when the Committes of
> > Vigilance decide they were above the law?
>
> Much of what you mention is before my time. Yes, the history of San
> Francisco is rife with the attitudes and problems of the times but here
> the queues of the Chinese were cut off. In Seattle, for example, it was
> their heads.
>
> > When the police were arresting people for printing Allen Ginsberg?
> > Just When was this Golden Era?
>
> And arresting Lenny Bruce, too. And the guerrilla theatre troupe. But
> look at the freedom of expression we have today because of what happened
> here.
>
> > Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
>
> > ??? Why was it *better*? Because there weren't any unions, any
> > hippies, any gays? Because the Chinese knew their place?
>
> My mother dates her use of the word "gay" for homosexual to 1932. I
> cannot remember when I learned it but probably when I was younger than
> ten. I was aware of homosexuals, and knew many, for as long as I can
> remember. There were many gay bars in town, particularly the Black Cat
> and the 585 [Post Street] Club. They were widely known to people in
> general and Polk Gulch was a gay center much as Eureka Valley is now.
> There weren't the throngs then as now but when in Polk Gulch you knew
> you were in a gay neighborhood.
>
> > Changes are interesting. History is interesting, but you need to
> > read it carefully.
>
David Hatunen
>In article <7r28t1$d6u$1...@ultra.sonic.net>,
> hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
>> Was it better way back when the newly arrived
>> Americans found ways to get the land away from almost all of the
>> Californios? When corrupt mayors who make Willy Brown look like
>> Ralph Nader were pocketing public tax money and skillfully
>> eliminating their opponents?
>
>Perhaps the most corrupt of them built City Hall!
Which one? The one that fell down in 1906, or that one that had to
be shut down after 1989?
>> Or was it when the Committes of Vigilance decide they were above
>> the law?
>
>Much of what you mention is before my time. Yes, the history of San
>Francisco is rife with the attitudes and problems of the times but here
>the queues of the Chinese were cut off. In Seattle, for example, it was
>their heads.
Are you really claiming SF was good because they didn't
discriminate as much as Seattle?
>> When the police were arresting people for printing Allen Ginsberg?
>> Just When was this Golden Era?
>
>And arresting Lenny Bruce, too. And the guerrilla theatre troupe. But
>look at the freedom of expression we have today because of what happened
>here.
Precisely. Things are *better* today. Thank you for confirming it.
>> Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
>
>> ??? Why was it *better*? Because there weren't any unions, any
>> hippies, any gays? Because the Chinese knew their place?
>
>My mother dates her use of the word "gay" for homosexual to 1932.
>I cannot remember when I learned it but probably when I was
>younger than ten. I was aware of homosexuals, and knew many, for
>as long as I can remember. There were many gay bars in town,
>particularly the Black Cat and the 585 [Post Street] Club. They
>were widely known to people in general and Polk Gulch was a gay
>center much as Eureka Valley is now. There weren't the throngs
>then as now but when in Polk Gulch you knew you were in a gay
>neighborhood.
Yes. Gays ahd their ghettoes, too.
There was a reason the gays marched after the White acquittal, and
it wasn't just the White acquittal. San Francisco may have been
more tolerant than Peoria, but it still wasn't that tolerent. They
were still frequnetly hassled by police.
>> Changes are interesting. History is interesting, but you need to
>> read it carefully.
>
>As Dennis Suchta has been kind enough to notice, the overall
>quality of life here has diminished.
Given all that even you've admitted about Blacks, Chinese, et al, I
am having trouble figuring out just whose overall quality of life
you all are talking about, but I'm gettting a pretty good clue:
white, straight people had a good quality of life, mostly because
they were able to keep non-white, non-straights in their place.
>Yes, there's blood in our past and perhaps in our future. Yes, we
>had wide-spread discrimination. Yes, we're guilty of most of the
>things of which the state and country are also guilty. But almost
>every social negative you can cite was less severe here than
>elsewhere and almost every social positive you can cite was
>stronger here than elsewhere.
Aha. You really are claiming that SF had a good quality of life
because it wasn't as bad as other places.
But the comparison at hand is not to SF's history vis-a-vis other
places; it is whether SF today has a worse quality of life than it
used to. Your answer seems to be, yes, it did, if you were white
and straight.
Glad to know where you stand on the issue.
Ciccio
> Just When was this Golden Era?
I don't know about a "Golden Era." All that smack you posted existed all over
the country. But what also existed in SF in the 60's, as well as all over the
country, was a decent cost of living. Back in the 60's a guy with an average
middle class wage could buy a house in the Avenues, have 2 kids, mom stay at
home [if she chose to], 2 cars, and an annual vacation to Disneyland. Now days,
most major cities in the country are in that ball park, but it's long gone in
The City. It's no wonder...in most major U.S. cities the earnings are about 30%
less than in SF, but the houses cost about 50% less. The rest of it gets all
fucked up from there.
Ciccio
A Native San Franciscan who knows things were better in the ol' days.
Amalia Freedman
>
> In article <37D0E4A8...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> >Dan Abel wrote:
> >> relieve the land and housing shortage.
> >
> >We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
> >highways.
>
> Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least not usable
> land. Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
> organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable to any
> purpose but preservation.
>
[snip]
Bravo! As a born-here San Franciscan, and the children of born-here San
Franciscans, I value these networks of parks and open spaces highly ...
and will register that opinion at the ballot box every chance I get.
I'd be interested in how you are defining the Bay Area when you say that
"Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in city, county,
state and national parks," and how you look at issues such as slope to
determine developable land. I shudder to think what would happen to the
quality of our lives here if that land were given up for development.
Golden Gate Park, Golden Gate National Seashore, Tilden, Joaquin Miller
and our many other open space areas are valuable resources that can only
slightly ameliorate the increased congestion due to skyrocketing
population.
AEF
David Hatunen
>David Hatunen wrote:
>
>> Just When was this Golden Era?
>
>existed all over the country. But what also existed in SF in the
>60's, as well as all over the country, was a decent cost of
>living.
"All over the country" wasn't the question.
>Back in the 60's a guy with an average middle class wage
>could buy a house in the Avenues, have 2 kids, mom stay at home
>[if she chose to], 2 cars, and an annual vacation to Disneyland.
>Now days, most major cities in the country are in that ball park,
>but it's long gone in The City. It's no wonder...in most major
>U.S. cities the earnings are about 30% less than in SF, but the
>houses cost about 50% less. The rest of it gets all fucked up from
>there.
The claim was that San Francisco had a better quality of life x
years ago (you supply the value for x). I'm not sure how this
addresses the question, except for a certain nostalgia for Ward and
June and Beaver and Wally.
>Ciccio
>
>A Native San Franciscan who knows things were better in the ol'
>days.
The old days were better for me, too, son of a gun. I was young,
single, footloose and fancy free and living in Ohio. But subjective
anecdotage by a single person scarcely qualifies as objective
evidence that the quality of life was better then than now.
This is the Good Old Days your kids will get nostalgic for.
David Kaye
" Local Farmer's Markets listings can be found at http://cafarmersmkts.com/.
" There are markets all over the Bay Area, almost daily.
That web page doesn't list any of the 3 farmers' markets in San Francisco.
They are Civic Center plaza, Embarcadero at the foot of Market Street, and
the oldest one, the Alemany Street farmers' market just off the 280
freeway on the south slope of Bernal Heights.
--
(C) 1999 Our main business is not to see what lies
David Kaye dimly at a distance, but to do what lies clearly
dk at wco.com at hand. -- Thomas Carlyle
David Kaye
" [....] Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
The best way, I believe, is to hang out in coffeehouses -- and I'm not
talking those dumb Starbucks cafes, either, where all you're going to meet
are yuppiescum. Go to the small, crusty neighborhood places. In SF,
these are places like Muddy Waters, Royal Grounds, the Horse Shoe, etc.
Also, consider checking out social groups. I founded three of them: (1)
SF Games, a weekly board and card game group open to all; and (2) Gay
Geeks, a gay/bi/lesbian haven for intellectuals and visionaries; (3)
Quick Tricks bridge club (ACBL franchised club).
Aside from my starting them, these groups are not related to each other at
all.
SF Games and Gay Geeks can be reached via http://www.wco.com/~dk
Quick Tricks has a link on the SF Games web page.
I also suggest learning to dance, sing, and/or play Balkan music. I don't
have any links on my page yet, but check out the Ashkenaz
nightclub/community center in Berkeley. They have some wonderful stuff
going on: http://www.ashkenaz.com/
Another choice is ballroom dancing, very big in SF. Check out *the*
definitive guide to Bay Area ballroom dancing:
http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/users/moroney/dance/dance.html
--
(C) 1999 Many people will walk in and out of your life, but only
David Kaye true friends will leave footprints in your heart
dk at wco.com
Jon Nadelberg
>
> David Hatunen wrote:
> >
> > In article <37D0E4A8...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> > >Dan Abel wrote:
> > >> relieve the land and housing shortage.
> > >
> > >We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
> > >highways.
> >
> > Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least not usable
> > land. Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> > city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
> > organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable to any
> > purpose but preservation.
> >
> [snip]
>
> Bravo! As a born-here San Franciscan, and the children of born-here San
> Franciscans, I value these networks of parks and open spaces highly ...
> and will register that opinion at the ballot box every chance I get.
Guess being born there gives you some special privleges. OK, what about
if your parents were born there, but then moved to LA, and then you
ended up moving back later yourself? Does that count? What if you come
from fifth generation Californians, but some of them were from Fresno
originally, but later moved to the bay area, but then moved elsewhere in
the state, but lived in San Francisco as children in the 1920s and even
earlier? What if some were from San Francisco originally, but moved?
Do they lose the mantle then?
What if you move? Will that mean that the people where you move to have
the right to consider you dirt under their heels? Like, what if you
moved to San Mateo? Can we spit on the ground as we walk past your
house? I get to do that, because I moved into the town 5 years ago.
Before YOU.
Really, I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but all this "I was
here first" stuff is a bunch of annoying hooey.
>
> I'd be interested in how you are defining the Bay Area when you say that
> "Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in city, county,
> state and national parks," and how you look at issues such as slope to
> determine developable land. I shudder to think what would happen to the
> quality of our lives here if that land were given up for development.
> Golden Gate Park, Golden Gate National Seashore, Tilden, Joaquin Miller
> and our many other open space areas are valuable resources that can only
> slightly ameliorate the increased congestion due to skyrocketing
> population.
Parks are nice. Nice parks are one of the reasons people want to live
here.
You know that in the 1930s, the state put the CHP on the border to turn
away folks from Oklahoma and other places who wanted to come here to
live. Called them the bum squad. Same sort of idea. "I'm here, I got
mine, everyone else stay away." Well, the region is not here for you
personally, or your select friends.
If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
Dan Abel
<freedma...@bah.com> wrote:
> David Hatunen wrote:
> >
> > In article <37D0E4A8...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> > >We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
> > >highways.
> >
> > Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least not usable
> > land. Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
I've seen maps showing the original and present amount of land around the
Bay. It's truly amazing how much filling in of the Bay has been done over
the years. I wish I had a URL.
I value the parks, I'm just not sure what we need to do to accommodate
having places for people to live.
--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
ab...@sonoma.edu
http://www.sonoma.edu/IT/AIS/people/Abel.html
Matt Ackeret
>Matt Ackeret wrote:
>>
>> In article <37D37A...@the.net>, slant_eyed_louie <wa...@the.net> wrote:
>> >Matt Ackeret wrote:
>> >
>> >HOW DOES ONE RESPOND TO "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican
>> >food"....
>> ...
>>
>> Hey moron.. I've lived here effectively all of my life (since I was 1).
>
>HEY GENIUS, you posted: "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican
>food"....
>
>NOW ANALYZE WHAT I QUOTED FROM YOU.
>
>STILL DON'T GET IT??
>
>HINT: Taco Bell.....Mexican food.....
I said:
I'm not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like
Taco Bell but that doesn't count), but it's still interesting to read about
the different places.
HINT: Taco Bell isn't authentic Mexican food.
You probably think that Chop Suey is real Chinese food too. Or that fortune
cookies were invented in China.
--
mat...@area.com
Dennis Suchta
greater in the past. Its simple economics: more people competing for resources
leads to higher cost. One can be moan this fact without being ridden out of town on
a rail. This has happened to a lot of cities. I'm from Chicago, still visit often.
It has an influx of people that have changed the city. It use to be a nice weekend
event to ride your bike along the lake - now its impossible. The 4th of July
concert was a great event - now 350000 show up. I not only blame the people who
moved there from "no there there" but the suburbs who now flood the city for
excitment.
Dennis
Jon Nadelberg wrote:
> Amalia Freedman wrote:
> >
> > David Hatunen wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <37D0E4A8...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> > > >Dan Abel wrote:
> > > >> relieve the land and housing shortage.
> > > >
> > > >We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets and
> > > >highways.
> > >
> > > Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least not usable
> > > land. Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Again, another misses the point.
Uh, no. I don't miss the point. But I think you miss mine.
> The claim is that the bay area is great now,
> greater in the past.
Well, that claim is wrong, as has been pointed out by Dave Hatunen.
Some things are better, some things are worse. Yes, it's more crowded
now, but so are lots of places. What do you want these people to do?
Go live someplace else that you think is more suited to them?
> Its simple economics: more people competing for resources
> leads to higher cost.
This is a peninsula. There are only so many places to build. There are
in fact very few places left. People want to live here, and they have
money to spend. This drives up prices.
But, in fact, this happens anyplace that is desirable to live. If you
want cheap, move to North Dakota. Don't want to live there? Well gee,
that's why it's cheap.
> One can be moan this fact without being ridden out of town on
> a rail.
Bemoan all you want, but you don't have ANY more right to this area than
anyone else does. There is no birthright to being a native born San
Franciscan. The fact is that by your mere presence here, you are
actively part of the overpopulation problem. As I was trying to point
out in my other post on this, I was born in this state, my parents have
been in this state for 40 years, my wife's mother was born in San
Francisco, her father was raised there, and she's fifth generation
Californian. So, who determines who gets to live in what county? Who
decides who gets to be the bemoaner and who the bemoanee?
Is there a time table? Because my wife's family has lived in this state
for so long, do I (via marriage) get to bitch about your presence in my
state because you may not have been born here, or your family has not
lived here as long?
> This has happened to a lot of cities. I'm from Chicago, still visit often.
> It has an influx of people that have changed the city. It use to be a nice weekend
> event to ride your bike along the lake - now its impossible. The 4th of July
> concert was a great event - now 350000 show up. I not only blame the people who
> moved there from "no there there" but the suburbs who now flood the city for
> excitment.
Blame them all you want, but your visits there contribute to it. Why is
it that it's ok for you to visit and cause one extra person to be there,
but not the other people who visit? You're just as much the problem as
everyone else is.
--
jo...@pacbell.net
See 1970s Disneyland
http://home.pacbell.net/jonvn
Amalia Freedman
> > > Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> > > city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
> > > organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable to any purpose but preservation.
> > >
>
> moved to San Mateo? Can we spit on the ground as we walk past your
> house? I get to do that, because I moved into the town 5 years ago.
> Before YOU.
>
No one said anything about spitting on property (although I'm sure you
could get people going on that). All being from here gives someone is a
historical perspective on how things came to be. The poster above seemed
unclear on the concept that maybe there's so much open space here
because those who have been around to shape land use policy WANT open
space here. And as a current resident, I am dedicated to maintaining
that policy.
As voters, ours count equally, wherever we're from. And I'll vote (and
fight) for that right, it's far more important than some idea of pride
of place.
> > [snip] I shudder to think what would happen to the
> > quality of our lives here if that land were given up for development.
> > Golden Gate Park, Golden Gate National Seashore, Tilden, Joaquin Miller
> > and our many other open space areas are valuable resources that can only
> > slightly ameliorate the increased congestion due to skyrocketing
> > population.
>
> You know that in the 1930s, the state put the CHP on the border to turn
> away folks from Oklahoma and other places who wanted to come here to
> live. Called them the bum squad. Same sort of idea. "I'm here, I got
> mine, everyone else stay away." Well, the region is not here for you
> personally, or your select friends.
>
> If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
> going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
> Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
Apropos of absolutely nothing in my post, but mildly interesting.
Perhaps you are actually replying to the previous poster, who implied
(but perhaps did not mean) that if we developed all that open space we'd
have less housing scarcity issues in the Bay Area? Or are you arguing
that the preservation of existing open space is actually a nasty ploy to
keep outsiders out? Frankly, I'd agree if it was also combined -- in a
given municipality -- with efforts to stop any kind of higher density
new development, but as far as I can tell reading back, we weren't
discussing that.
AEF
Pete Fraser
Dennis Suchta <dsu...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:37D51E1C...@uswest.net...
> ITs Mays, not Mayes. A terrible mistake for a native.
>
may not understand grammar correctly.
Amalia Freedman
Which, if my memory serves me, are held on Wednesday; Tuesday and
Saturday; and Saturday respectively.
AEF
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Jon Nadelberg wrote:
> > > > Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> > > > city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
> > > > organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable to any purpose but preservation.
> > > >
> > > Bravo! As a born-here San Franciscan, and the children of born-here > > San Franciscans, I value these networks of parks and open spaces > > highly ... and will register that opinion at the ballot box every > > chance I get.
> >
> > Guess being born there gives you some special privleges. [drivel snipped] Like, what if you
> > moved to San Mateo? Can we spit on the ground as we walk past your
> > house? I get to do that, because I moved into the town 5 years ago.
> > Before YOU.
> >
>
> No one said anything about spitting on property (although I'm sure you
> could get people going on that). All being from here gives someone is a
> historical perspective on how things came to be.
And an excuse for whining about people who have shown up after you,
which is what is happening here.
> The poster above seemed
> unclear on the concept that maybe there's so much open space here
> because those who have been around to shape land use policy WANT open
> space here. And as a current resident, I am dedicated to maintaining
> that policy.
Open space? Where? In San Francisco? The only open space there is in
artificially created city parks. It's totally paved over. San
Francisco is the most urbanized and densely populated city on the west
coast.
Not that open space is bad, mind you. You just have to drive 20 or so
miles south to around where 92 meets 280 to see some of it. I think
open space is great. But I don't see a whole lot of it either in the
city or in surrounding areas. It's nearly all developed property of
some sort.
>
> As voters, ours count equally, wherever we're from. And I'll vote (and
> fight) for that right, it's far more important than some idea of pride
> of place.
>
> > > [snip] I shudder to think what would happen to the
> > > quality of our lives here if that land were given up for development.
> > > Golden Gate Park, Golden Gate National Seashore, Tilden, Joaquin Miller
> > > and our many other open space areas are valuable resources that can only
> > > slightly ameliorate the increased congestion due to skyrocketing
> > > population.
> >
> > You know that in the 1930s, the state put the CHP on the border to turn
> > away folks from Oklahoma and other places who wanted to come here to
> > live. Called them the bum squad. Same sort of idea. "I'm here, I got
> > mine, everyone else stay away." Well, the region is not here for you
> > personally, or your select friends.
> >
> > If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
> > going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
> > Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
>
> Apropos of absolutely nothing in my post, but mildly interesting.
Thank you. Ferndale is nice.
> Perhaps you are actually replying to the previous poster, who implied
> (but perhaps did not mean) that if we developed all that open space we'd
> have less housing scarcity issues in the Bay Area? Or are you arguing
> that the preservation of existing open space is actually a nasty ploy to
> keep outsiders out?
No, I'm arguing that crabbing about population problems is selfish, and
we have no right to keep "outsiders" out, because everyone here is an
outsider of one kind or another.
Amalia Freedman
> Well, they haven't had hippie style tacos (and in my belief the best
> tacos) until they've gone to Hey Juan in Arcata. Brown rice, whole grain
> tortillas, fresh ingredients. Blows away the greasy stuff I've eaten at
> Taqueria Can-Cun.
>
> --
> (C) 1999 The best way to cheer yourself is to try
> David Kaye to cheer someone else up. -- Mark Twain
> dk at wco.com
Which reminds me: is Aye Chihuahua on University Ave. in Berkeley still
good? It used to be as you describe when it was next door where The
Counter is now. Not a traditional taco by any stretch of my experience
in Mexico or the US, but really good in a different and very clean sort
of way.
AEF
Keith Moore
> Hi.
>
> We have recently moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from
> Dayton for my first managment job. Jobdirect.com got me
> hired on and everybody's been good with the re-location
> process, however I don't know people enough to ask the
> questions my wife wants answered. Like where and when are
> the farmer's markets held? Where are the outlet malls
> around here? Besides just exploring, what do you suggest
> for finding out about the area and the people? And the
> restaurants we should try first?
Among the other fine suggestions, you might want to check the numerous
web sites devoted to the Bay Area. Http://www.bayinsider.com should have
some good references. And I recall one of the news stations having a
site full of ideas, http://www.kpix.com, I think--or something close to
that.
--
Keith Moore
Groundwire
Techno-funk-rock!
Hear our latest single at
http://www.mp3.com/groundwire
http://www.groundwire1.com
Dennis Suchta
warm up that rail for anyone who does not agree with you. I have not read a single post
by anyone on the "greater past" side who asked you to leave. I have not read a single
post from that group saying they do not want to live in the bay area. Why do you feel
the need to see what's not there?
I'm not from SF. I read the posts from these log time residents as one of perspective
not challenging my right to be here. The only post where lineage has been used to
justify an attack has been yours.
My visits to Chicago do not add to the two instances I cite. I havent been to the 4July
concert in a long time - the crowds, milling about having no interest in the music make
it a unpleasant event. I do not bike along the lake due to the seen/be seen crowd. If
you visit Chicago, let me know. I'll give you a list of the places where the crowd will
validate the ego of your choice.
Dennis
Dennis Suchta
rich net people to build the latest mansions?
Dennis
Amalia Freedman wrote:
> Jon Nadelberg wrote:
> > > > Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> > > > city, county, state and national parks, or by open land
> > > > organizations which buy up open land and make it unavailable to any purpose but preservation.
> > > >
> > > Bravo! As a born-here San Franciscan, and the children of born-here > > San Franciscans, I value these networks of parks and open spaces > > highly ... and will register that opinion at the ballot box every > > chance I get.
> >
> > Guess being born there gives you some special privleges. [drivel snipped] Like, what if you
> > moved to San Mateo? Can we spit on the ground as we walk past your
> > house? I get to do that, because I moved into the town 5 years ago.
> > Before YOU.
> >
>
> No one said anything about spitting on property (although I'm sure you
> could get people going on that). All being from here gives someone is a
> historical perspective on how things came to be. The poster above seemed
> unclear on the concept that maybe there's so much open space here
> because those who have been around to shape land use policy WANT open
> space here. And as a current resident, I am dedicated to maintaining
> that policy.
>
> As voters, ours count equally, wherever we're from. And I'll vote (and
> fight) for that right, it's far more important than some idea of pride
> of place.
>
> > > [snip] I shudder to think what would happen to the
> > > quality of our lives here if that land were given up for development.
> > > Golden Gate Park, Golden Gate National Seashore, Tilden, Joaquin Miller
> > > and our many other open space areas are valuable resources that can only
> > > slightly ameliorate the increased congestion due to skyrocketing
> > > population.
> >
> > You know that in the 1930s, the state put the CHP on the border to turn
> > away folks from Oklahoma and other places who wanted to come here to
> > live. Called them the bum squad. Same sort of idea. "I'm here, I got
> > mine, everyone else stay away." Well, the region is not here for you
> > personally, or your select friends.
> >
> > If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
> > going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
> > Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
>
> Apropos of absolutely nothing in my post, but mildly interesting.
> Perhaps you are actually replying to the previous poster, who implied
> (but perhaps did not mean) that if we developed all that open space we'd
> have less housing scarcity issues in the Bay Area? Or are you arguing
> that the preservation of existing open space is actually a nasty ploy to
Jon Nadelberg
>
> You can "point out" all you want it does not make it fact.
Neither does your saying it is not, not make it a fact. So that line of
argument is fruitless.
> You seemed determined to
> warm up that rail for anyone who does not agree with you. I have not read a single post
> by anyone on the "greater past" side who asked you to leave.
No. They're just complaining about how lousy it's getting because so
many people are flooding in here, after either they, or their parents
flooded in here previously. No one has asked me to leave, and I'm not
asking anyone else to leave either.
> I have not read a single
> post from that group saying they do not want to live in the bay area. Why do you feel
> the need to see what's not there?
I simply suggested that if someone feels it is too crowded, or too
expensive, they try North Dakota. And if that's not something they are
interested in doing, and they are staying here, then they are making it
just that much more crowded. The point is that OTHER people aren't
making it more crowded any more than THEY are making it more crowded.
It is crowded here, but the thing is that there are too many of US, not
too many of THEM.
>
> I'm not from SF. I read the posts from these log time residents as one of perspective
> not challenging my right to be here. The only post where lineage has been used to
> justify an attack has been yours.
Oh? How about this quote from the signature of one poster:
"A Native San Franciscan...who knows better."
It has been mentioned several times here that people were either born in
SF or live there, and that somehow gives them some sort of rank or
authority.
Well, I wasn't born here, but I used to come up here all the time
growing up. Went to Marine World when it was on the peninsula. I can
still hear the jingle from the place that they played on their
commercial that was shown incessantly on local tv. So, big deal with
being a native of San Francisco or living there. It doesn't make you
special, or gives you any special insight.
...
Anyway, Yogi Berra once went into a restaurant that was packed full of
people. He was pretty unhappy about it. His comment: "No wonder
nobody comes here anymore. It's too crowded."
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Some of the replies to posts remind me that the reading comprehension tests that use to be given in school probably do not exist anymore. Does anyone know the current status of the Presidio? Are they going to pave it over for the
> rich net people to build the latest mansions?
Oh, and here's another little line from someone who talks about lineage,
pointed out because you seem to not be able to notice it.
Talk about reading comprehension...
>
>
> Amalia Freedman wrote:
>
> > > > >
> > > > Bravo! As a born-here San Franciscan, and the children of born-here > > San Franciscans,
--
Icono Clast
> ITs Mays, not Mayes.
Egad! I hate mis-spelling people's names.
> A terrible mistake for a native.
Not really:
He came here from the East
I have, and had, no interest in baseball
Maye's Oyster House is on Polk Street
--
ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
David Kaye
" An outlet mall has a number of stores which are, purportedly,
" direct factory outlet stores. This supposedly makes the prices
" lower, but it also means many manufacturers push their seconds
" there, which can be a good deal or a bad deal.
Exactly, but I'll say that the ratio is more like 90% seconds, rejects,
out of season, out of fashion, etc. Banana Republic used to have a stale
store in SF (their first store, actually, on Polk Street). Then they woke
up one day after I bought several hundred dollars of $6 pants and shirts,
that they had no *need* to drop the prices here. People here have money
to burn. So, they moved the store to the outer reaches of civilization --
Stockton or somewhere.
--
(C) 1999 Choose a job you love and you will never have
David Kaye to work a day in your life. -- Confucius
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" One of the columnists in the SJ Mercury is doing an interesting series on
" finding the best tacos. I'm not even a huge fan of Mexican food (I like
" Taco Bell but that doesn't count), but it's still interesting to read about
" the different places.
Well, they haven't had hippie style tacos (and in my belief the best
David Kaye
" HOW DOES ONE RESPOND TO "like Taco Bell but...not...fan of Mexican
" food"....
Since when is Taco Bell Mexican food? Even Taco Bell used to run ads
saying that they did *not* carry Mexican food, but "...beef from Montana,
Wisconsin cheese, lettuce from California..." and then went on to end the
ads with "Taco Bell -- the great American meal!"
There was an article some years back in one of the design magazines
showing how Taco Bell had purposely removed the bells from their
mission-style restaurant fronts and replaced them with plastic pictures of
bells. They also redesigned their buildings so that while they looked
vaguely ethnic from the front, when seen from the parking area to the
side, Taco Bell looked exactly like McDonald's. The idea was to show that
Taco Bell, though "mysterious", was just American fast food that looked
a little different.
I seriously doubt that Taco Bell will be selling menudo, mariscos, or
orchata any time soon.
Jeez...for someone who claims to know a lot about ethnic stuff, you've
struck out on the Chinatown rant and now you've struck out on Taco Bell.
--
(C) 1999 It's a recession when your neighbor loses
David Kaye his job; it's a depression when you lose your
dk at wco.com own. -- Harry S. Truman
David Kaye
" Well, it *happens*. I couldn't give a shit about Mexican food, but TB is
" passible for the 2-3 times a year when I want tacos.
I will say this: there is nothing in the fast food industry that makes my
mouth water -- EXCEPT -- the "Santa Fe" style chicken "gordida" (made up
name). That gordida thing is sooo delicious I actually crave it, and
other than that I positively hate fast food.
--
(C) 1999 Merit begets confidence, confidence begets enthusiasm,
David Kaye enthusiasm conquers the world. -- Walter H. Cottingham
dk at wco.com
David Kaye
" As to restaurants. Wow, you've hit the Motherlode. What can I say.
" Just keep reading ba.food. Coming from Dayton, you may end up with
" information overload. Just be careful, don't ever mention Lyon's or
" Olive Garden in ba.food.
I was shocked when I went to Olive Garden and was served a mushy
clam fettucine. Seems they have no idea what al dente means. While the
antipasto was passable, nothing sparkled, and the garbanzos seemed to have
been taken from a can.
--
(C) 1999 When you are not strong, you must be smart
David Kaye
dk at wco.com
Ciccio
> The claim was that San Francisco had a better quality of life x
> years ago (you supply the value for x). I'm not sure how this
> addresses the question, except for a certain nostalgia for Ward and
> June and Beaver and Wally.
Nothing to do with the style of family ...the point is COST OF LIVING. Did you
skim over that part? Most major cities in the country a single income can get
you a house, etc. Nothing to do with Ward, et al. Oh, I see, the WORKING people
in homeless shelters demonstrate a better quality of life now days.
HERE, SINCE YOU HAVE POOR EYESIGHT AND CANNOT READ A POST IN ITS ENTIRETY: SAN
FRANCISCO IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST RIP OFFS IN THE USA...25 years ago it wasn't.
Now, do you understand? Or does cost of living have nothing to do with "quality
of life?"
Ciccio
Steve Wertz
: David Hatunen wrote:
It's not the "cheese", is it? (I'd argue that certain cheese and
fungus _can_ cause an hysteria outbreak, though).
It's the food, weather, sports; the places you can drive
to in 4 hours or less, the scenery on a clear day, the
[de-arranged|intelligent] poeple, the beaches, the hills, and the
parks that make the $COL high. You don't find that (naturally)
many other places.
As such, my Quality of Life has increased, despite the high
markups. A crusade ain't gonna change anything.
Strictly IMHO, we should stop promoting ba.* so widely; tell them all
"it really sucks here". But we'd be trolling, wouldn't we :-)
-sw
IClast
> > > >We have more land than ever but it's been paved into streets
> > > >and highways.
> > > Actually we don't have more land than ever, at least not usable
> > > land. Most of the land in the immediate Bay Area is tied up in
> I've seen maps showing the original and present amount of land around
> the Bay. It's truly amazing how much filling in of the Bay has been
> done over the years. I wish I had a URL.
That's what I meant by "more land than ever".
> I value the parks, I'm just not sure what we need to do to accommodate
> having places for people to live.
We don't "need to do" anything "to accommodate having places for people
to live". As I've said, everyone who lives here has a place to live
here. We are not responsible for, nor can we be expected to accommodate,
everyone in the world who would like to live here. Most of us have
desires that we cannot fulfill for a variety of reasons and living here,
for those who don't, happens to be one of them.
Ever been out on the highway late at night, tired, and looking for a
place to stay yet all the hotels' and motels' "No Vacancy" signs were
lit? What did you do? You kept on going until you found a place you
could accommodate you.
Yet you can say that we have to provide housing. If you were to say
that, I would have to ask, When do we stop? When do we say "enough"?
When DO we turn on the "No Vacancy" sign. I was laughed out of City Hall
longer than 35 years ago for so saying then and all that I predicted
that would happen here has happened here. My predictions were not the
result of any study or great intelligence or even keen observation:
Anyone could look at the window to see what was happening and you can
look out the window to see what has happened.
--
Icono Clast -- A San Franciscan posting from San Francisco
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
IClast
Jon Nadelberg <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Guess being born there gives you some special privleges. OK, what
> What if some were from San Francisco originally, but moved?
> Do they lose the mantle then?
> all this "I was here first" stuff is a bunch of annoying hooey.
Is it really? Haven't you ever had to wait for anything? Stand in line?
Or are you the asshole who goes up to the head of the line as if you
were a White man in 1950 Mississippi and all the people in line were
Black?
If you're delayed in traffic, it's because others were there first. If
you can't stay in a particular hotel you can afford, it's because others
were there first. If you can't board a stuffed bus, it's because others
were there first. If you can't get the flight you want, it's because
others were there first. And if you want to live in my house, I won't
let you because it's where I live; I got here first.
> If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
> going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
> Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
The weather there's worse than here. 'Sides, to where would you deport
me? Everything important I've done in my life has been right here. The
'phone company thinks my average telephone bill of less than $20 is low.
Why? I don't make long distance calls. Never have. Don't expect to.
Although I have acquaintances out there, I don't have any friends out
there. They're all here.
Icono Clast
> >Much of what you mention is before my time. Yes, the history of San
> >Francisco is rife with the attitudes and problems of the times but here
> >the queues of the Chinese were cut off. In Seattle, for example, it was
> >their heads.
> Are you really claiming SF was good because they didn't
> discriminate as much as Seattle?
Or anywhere else you can name for the time; Yes.
> >> When the police were arresting people for printing Allen Ginsberg?
> >> Just When was this Golden Era?
> >
> >And arresting Lenny Bruce, too. And the guerrilla theatre troupe. But
> >look at the freedom of expression we have today because of what happened
> >here.
> Precisely. Things are *better* today. Thank you for confirming it.
That "better" is not just here but throughout the USA and, perhaps,
beyond.
> Yes. Gays ahd their ghettoes, too.
What do you mean "had"? How about "have" as in today's Eureka Valley?
I hope you're not suggesting that gay people have been herded up and
forced to live in Eureka Valley as you've almost implied about Polk
Gulch.
> [gay people] were still frequnetly hassled by police.
Cannot be denied but that doesn't mean they were not generally
accepted by the general public here long before any elsewhere.
> > the overall quality of life here has diminished.
> Given all that even you've admitted about Blacks, Chinese, et al, I
> am having trouble figuring out just whose overall quality of life
> you all are talking about, but I'm gettting a pretty good clue:
> white, straight people had a good quality of life, mostly because
> they were able to keep non-white, non-straights in their place.
You can say that life was "best" for straight white people but you
cannot say that it wasn't better here for any other ancestral or
societal group than elsewhere because it would simply be untrue.
> Aha. You really are claiming that SF had a good quality of life
> because it wasn't as bad as other places.
Yes. You cannot compare life for a Jew in Manhattan in 1950 with that
of a Jew in Phoenix today. You cannot compare life for a Black in
Atlanta today with that of a Black in Magnolia in 1970.
> But the comparison at hand is not to SF's history vis-a-vis other
> places;
Yes. Why did you drag in all that other stuff?
> it is whether SF today has a worse quality of life than it
> used to. Your answer seems to be, yes, it did, if you were white
> and straight.
Nope. The quality of life was better for everyone. Have you not
heard, for example, Blacks lamenting the loss of their once thriving
center of art, culture, business, and social life, The Fillmore?
> Glad to know where you stand on the issue.
David Hatunen
>David Hatunen wrote:
>
>> The claim was that San Francisco had a better quality of life x
>> years ago (you supply the value for x). I'm not sure how this
>> addresses the question, except for a certain nostalgia for Ward and
>> June and Beaver and Wally.
>
>Nothing to do with the style of family ...the point is COST OF
>LIVING.
Uh. NO. The subject is quality of life, which some people are
linking to cost of living. IconoClast started it when he said the
qulity of life in San Francisco was worse now than in the past.
>Did you skim over that part? Most major cities in the country a
>single income can get you a house, etc. Nothing to do with Ward,
>et al. Oh, I see, the WORKING people in homeless shelters
>demonstrate a better quality of life now days.
>HERE, SINCE YOU HAVE POOR EYESIGHT AND CANNOT READ A POST IN ITS
>ENTIRETY: SAN FRANCISCO IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST RIP OFFS IN THE
>USA...25 years ago it wasn't. Now, do you understand? Or does cost
>of living have nothing to do with "quality of life?"
You might try reading a thread in its entirety before reverting to
the childish use of caps. Cost of living certainly has something to
do with quality of life, but what?
I'm sorry that YOUR quality of life has declined, but the question
was more generic than that.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Ciccio
> It's the food,
Like I said, there are other cities with a like number of good restaurants.
> weather,
Maybe the east bay or south of San Bruno. The weather in SF itself sucks.
> sports;
Sure, there are Major league teams. But college football... forget about it.
Once in a great while a decent college football team. Anyhow, lots of cities
have the same major league sports.
> the places you can drive to in 4 hours or less, the scenery on a clear day, the
> [de-arranged|intelligent] poeple, the beaches, the hills, and the
> parks that make the $COL high. You don't find that (naturally)
> many other places.
Other places have that and housing is about 50% less.
> As such, my Quality of Life has increased, despite the high
> markups.
Oh, I'm sure people can come from somewhere and increase their quality of life.
That's not the issue. The issue is: Was SF a better place to live 25-30 years
ago? Absolutely.
Ciccio
A native San Franciscan...who knows.
David Hatunen
>The weather there's worse than here. 'Sides, to where would you
>deport me? Everything important I've done in my life has been
>right here. The 'phone company thinks my average telephone bill of
>less than $20 is low. Why? I don't make long distance calls. Never
>have. Don't expect to. Although I have acquaintances out there, I
>don't have any friends out there. They're all here.
Rather than deporting you, I'm suggesting you be confined to the
City and County limits rather like the Soviet consul used to be,
and not allowed to leave to complain about the way non-San
Franciscans have screwed up non-San Francisco.
(I know you've been to Palo Alto. Don't you call Palo Alto from
time to time? How do you do it without charges?)
Karen O'Mara
> Nothing to do with the style of family ...the point is COST OF LIVING. Did you
> skim over that part? Most major cities in the country a single income can get
> you a house, etc. Nothing to do with Ward, et al. Oh, I see, the WORKING people
> in homeless shelters demonstrate a better quality of life now days.
>
> HERE, SINCE YOU HAVE POOR EYESIGHT AND CANNOT READ A POST IN ITS ENTIRETY: SAN
> FRANCISCO IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST RIP OFFS IN THE USA...25 years ago it wasn't.
> Now, do you understand? Or does cost of living have nothing to do with "quality
> of life?"
>
> Ciccio
>
> A Native San Franciscan...who knows better.
What is the homeless population of San Francisco? Any estimates?
Karen
Karen O'Mara
> But, in fact, this happens anyplace that is desirable to live. If you
> want cheap, move to North Dakota. Don't want to live there? Well gee,
> that's why it's cheap.
Fighting words, Jon, and you just love it.
North Dakota isn't so bad... one or two weeks out the year, anyway.
Karen <who loves this bay area, but knows she can no longer afford it>
David Hatunen
Dan Abel <ab...@sonoma.edu> wrote:
>I've seen maps showing the original and present amount of land
>around the Bay. It's truly amazing how much filling in of the Bay
>has been done over the years. I wish I had a URL.
Fortunately, it's no longer so easy to fill in the bay.
>I value the parks, I'm just not sure what we need to do to
>accommodate having places for people to live.
It's a tough problem with great social implications. Because so
mucland is locked up irrevocably, and because we can't fill in the
Bay anymore to create another Foster City or Redwood Shores,
housing is in short supply and consequently of high cost.
And that cost is the LAND, not the house, although high-cost land
invites the building of large, high-value homes. The result is that
those of lower income, even middle-class income, cannot afford to
live here. There is a teacher shortage, for instance, and the
shortage is probably exacerbated by the fact that no school
district pays enough for a teacher to be able to afford to move
here.
And it goes higher. Last winter City of Palo Alto recently hired an
Assistant Director of Public Works, a registered engineer from Simi
Valley, certainly a good-paying job. But after a couple of months of
looking she realized that she simply couldn't afford to move her
family here, and she left. The position remains open.
If your teachers and a municipal manager can't afford to move here,
where do you get your gardeners and police officers and librarians?
It's now gottento the point where you have the environmentalists on
one side wanting the land closed, and the real estate people on the
other side wanting to keep it closed in fear that opneing the land
would cause values to plummet.
Jon Nadelberg
>
> In article <37D57F27...@pacbell.net>,
> Jon Nadelberg <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > Guess being born there gives you some special privleges. OK, what
> > about if your parents were born there, but then moved to LA . . .
> > What if some were from San Francisco originally, but moved?
> > Do they lose the mantle then?
>
> > all this "I was here first" stuff is a bunch of annoying hooey.
>
> Is it really?
Yeah, it is.
> Haven't you ever had to wait for anything? Stand in line?
Yes. And if it weren't for all you people who were here first, there'd
be no problem.
> Or are you the asshole who goes up to the head of the line as if you
> were a White man in 1950 Mississippi and all the people in line were
> Black?
Don't like lines? Don't go where it is crowded. By doing that, you
reduce the crowd by one person.
>
> If you're delayed in traffic, it's because others were there first.
What utter illogic.
No. If I'm delayed in traffic it is because there are too many people
on the highway at that time for the current conditions.
> If
> you can't stay in a particular hotel you can afford, it's because others
> were there first.
No. It means that there are too many people who want to stay at the
hotel at the same time I do.
> If you can't board a stuffed bus, it's because others
> were there first.
No. It means that too many people want to use the same bus at the same
time I do.
> If you can't get the flight you want, it's because
> others were there first.
No. It means that too many people want to be on the same flight that I
do.
> And if you want to live in my house, I won't
> let you because it's where I live; I got here first.
>
No. I won't live in your house because it belongs to you. If you sold
it to me, then it would belong to me and I would live there. You don't
own your house because you got there first. You own your house because
you bought it.
> > If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
> > going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
> > Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
>
> The weather there's worse than here.
Some people like it.
> 'Sides, to where would you deport
> me?
I don't want to deport you. I want you to realize that you don't have
any special rights by being born in a certain county, or living here a
few extra years more than anyone else.
> Everything important I've done in my life has been right here.
That's nice. Everything important I've ever done in my life has been
right here in this state. Guess what? That means absolutely nothing.
> The
> 'phone company thinks my average telephone bill of less than $20 is low.
> Why? I don't make long distance calls. Never have. Don't expect to.
I find your life story quite interesting. Do you own a dog? What
kind? How about tropical fish? I used to have a fish tank, but I got
rid of it when we moved one time. Another one of my hobbies used to be
model trains. I really liked that, but was never very good at it. I'm
currently thinking of buying a new car. I was thinking a convertible
would be nice. Just test drove a cabrio, it's really roomy for a small
car, but it doesn't have a lot of pickup. The Sebring is ok, but I'm
kind of worried about Chrysler's reliability. I'll have to check
Consumer Reports about it. You know, I've subscribed to Consumer
Reports for years now. I find it very worthwhile and entertaining to
read. But the thing is that their web site is not free! I mean, here I
am a subscriber to this magazine and yet I can't get into the web site
without an additional charge. I think I should be able to access it as
part of my magazine subscription. Don't you think so?
I am enjoying our personal information exchange here on Usenet.
> Although I have acquaintances out there, I don't have any friends out
> there. They're all here.
>
I'm glad you have friends. I'm sure you're a fine person.
Jon Nadelberg
It's really bad. I work in San Mateo, and we have people commuting in
from El Cerrito. One person is looking for housing, and simply can not
find any.
The thing is, what can be done? Take up all the open space and fill it
in with housing? Then what? There is just so much land. The only
alternative is to build up, and house people in luxury chicken coops.
Will the peninsula turn into the west coast version of Manhattan?
Amalia Freedman
>
> Dennis Suchta wrote:
> >
> > Some of the replies to posts remind me that the reading comprehension tests that use to be given in school probably do not exist anymore. Does anyone know the current status of the Presidio? Are they going to pave it over for the
> > rich net people to build the latest mansions?
>
> Oh, and here's another little line from someone who talks about lineage,
> pointed out because you seem to not be able to notice it.
>
> Talk about reading comprehension...
>
> >
> >
> > Amalia Freedman wrote:
> >
>
> > > > > >
> > > > > Bravo! As a born-here San Franciscan, and the children of born-here > > San Franciscans,
>
That far out of context, buddy, it means absolutely nothing.
AEF
Greg Ellis
> If the area is too crowded for you, I suggest you help us all out by
> going and finding an area that isn't and moving there. I suggest
> Ferndale. Victorian buildings, cheap housing, low population.
I like Ferndale the way it is. Please, nobody move there.
Regarding food: They have a very nice bakery.
Greg