Some HDTV stations moved from UHF back to VHF. Opinions?
RWW
After their initial move to their new UHF channel, they have
moved their HD signal back to the original VHF channel.
In addition, they have petitioned the FCC for power increases.
They have also installed new UHF translator transmitters to maintain
coverage on throughout their area.
Any of the broadcast experts here have any comments on
this if you've heard of this problem scenario? Why would they
go back to VHF for their digital transmission?
Eric Weaver
> Some TV stations have had difficulty in transition to HDTV.
>
> go back to VHF for their digital transmission?
>
Can you cite a particular example or two?
RWW
"Eric Weaver" <we...@sigma.net> wrote:
WHBF is the one most familiar to me. I heard
there were others.
Kevin McMurtrie
wrote:
It could be specific to their region or terrain, not DTV. Higher
frequencies are less susceptible interference but are more easily
attenuated. Whether you're trying to overcome urban noise or tree
leaves could made a difference in which you want.
--
I won't see Goolge Groups replies because I must filter them as spam
Patty Winter
>
>After their initial move to their new UHF channel, they have
>moved their HD signal back to the original VHF channel.
Are you referring to stations that temporarily put their digital
channels on UHF, then moved them back to VHF after the analog
switchoff when those channels became available for digital? E.g.
KGO-TV in San Francisco, which moved from UHF 24 to VHF 7?
I'm not sure there were any stations that moved to UHF *after*
the switchoff (although there were certainly some moves within
that band). UHF is where almost all pre-transition digital
signals already were, since the VHF band was pretty well full
of analog stations.
Patty
Patty Winter
In article <7n2i3aF...@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Roberts <markrob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Are you saying WHBF moved *back* to 4?
>
>The FCC listing is a little confusing, but there is a CP for
>digital on 4 for WHBF and other information confirms what you're
>saying.
RabbitEars also says that WHBF is on channel 4, although we seem
to have lost the information about where its digital signal was
before the transition.
BTW, the subject line is a little misleading. It isn't just the
HD channels, but of course all of the station's channels that are
now on its final digital frequency.
Patty
Mike Ward
wrote:
>I'm not sure there were any stations that moved to UHF *after*
>the switchoff (although there were certainly some moves within
>that band). UHF is where almost all pre-transition digital
>signals already were, since the VHF band was pretty well full
>of analog stations.
If I recall correctly, KGO-TV's sister station Chicago (WLS-TV), moved
from RF 7 to RF 44 post-transition, and also has a fill-in, in-city RF
7 digital translator in the works.
Patty Winter
In article <4kbog5973qqa1m43c...@4ax.com>,
Mike Ward <mw...@iname.remove-this-part.com> wrote:
>
>If I recall correctly, KGO-TV's sister station Chicago (WLS-TV), moved
>from RF 7 to RF 44 post-transition
Wow, I'm surprised that ch. 7 wasn't in use by an analog station in
a big market like Chicago. What was WLS's analog channel?
Patty
David Kaye
>Wow, I'm surprised that ch. 7 wasn't in use by an analog station in
>a big market like Chicago. What was WLS's analog channel?
All the legacy ABC-owned stations were channel 7s. That is, WLS, KGO, KABC,
WABC, and WXYZ. The reason was that in the early days of TV an ABC exec
thought that the FCC was going to eliminate low-band VHF due to interference
problems, thus channel 7 would be the lowest numbered station on the dial.
Patty Winter
In article <7n2v5gF...@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Roberts <markrob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> had written:
>|
>| Wow, I'm surprised that ch. 7 wasn't in use by an analog station in
>| a big market like Chicago. What was WLS's analog channel?
>
Then its digital channel can't have been on 7 pre-transition.
Patty
Phil Kane
wrote:
>| Wow, I'm surprised that ch. 7 wasn't in use by an analog station in
>| a big market like Chicago. What was WLS's analog channel?
>
>7, just like the other five-market O&Os (SF, LA, NYC, Chgo, Detroit).
That goes back to the mid 1940s when ABC was betting on the Low-V (not
to be confused with the NY subway car of the same name) channels not
being restored, and then Channel 7 would be the first on the dial.
Remember "dials" ??
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR
Patty Winter
In article <7n3bcjF...@mid.individual.net>,
>
>your question was, "what was WLS's analog channel?"
Right, we were talking about digital stations that moved from
UHF to VHF during the transition, and someone said that WLS did
the opposite, moving from 7 to 44. I expressed surprise that
its digital signal was even on 7 in the first place, since the
VHF slots were pretty well full of analog stations. But if indeed
WLS-DT was on 7, I wondered where WLS-TV was. Now people are saying
that WLS-TV was on ch. 7, so WLS-DT can't have been there. Hence
the earlier comment about WLS-DT moving from 7 to 44 must have
been incorrect.
Patty
Patty Winter
In article <4b0c8a91$0$1587$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote:
>
> Now people are saying
>that WLS-TV was on ch. 7, so WLS-DT can't have been there. Hence
>the earlier comment about WLS-DT moving from 7 to 44 must have
>been incorrect.
Or maybe WLS did a flash-cut on June 12th, and the earlier comment
was referring to a *later* move of WLS-DT from 7 to 44.
Patty
John T
>
> Or maybe WLS did a flash-cut on June 12th, and the earlier comment
> was referring to a *later* move of WLS-DT from 7 to 44.
>
>
According to this article, their pre-transition DTV was ch. 44 (the
same one they have petitioned the FCC to move back to). They *did*
flash-cut on ch. 7 at the transition, but discovered that a large
portion of their viewers had severe problems receiving them, and there
was a loss of coverage on ch. 7.
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/85436
I have a friend whose mother in Chicago cannot receive ch. 7 with any
indoor antenna combination they have tried. They receive everything
else, though.
JT
--
Patty Winter
In article <oF0Pm.63$Lq5...@newsfe20.iad>,
John T <news...@fuzzyfaraway.com> wrote:
>* Patty Winter wrote, On 11/24/2009 5:41 PM:
>>
>> Or maybe WLS did a flash-cut on June 12th, and the earlier comment
>> was referring to a *later* move of WLS-DT from 7 to 44.
>
>According to this article, their pre-transition DTV was ch. 44 (the
>same one they have petitioned the FCC to move back to). They *did*
>flash-cut on ch. 7 at the transition, but discovered that a large
>portion of their viewers had severe problems receiving them, and there
>was a loss of coverage on ch. 7.
Got it, thanks, John!
Patty
Mike Ward
wrote:
>>According to this article, their pre-transition DTV was ch. 44 (the
>>same one they have petitioned the FCC to move back to). They *did*
>>flash-cut on ch. 7 at the transition, but discovered that a large
>>portion of their viewers had severe problems receiving them, and there
>>was a loss of coverage on ch. 7.
>
>Got it, thanks, John!
What John said...I think I took the original question the wrong way :)
In the case of WLS, it's been everywhere, and found out rather quickly
that a "full-power" VHF 7 only facility just wasn't going to cut it.
HankVC
tuning (the Inpout/Inductuner, latter made and sold by Mallory).
Even the 1939-41 RCA "experimental" (but series-produced and sold to
the public) TRK sets had fixed click-switch tuning. Typical is the
TRK-12 console with the mirror in the top, which had 5 channels in the
low band (there wasn't any high band until postwar).
Those sets were originally 441 lines and AM sound. No great trick to
crank up the horizonal oscillator frequency and arrange for slope
detection for the sound; also to tweak the 5 channels to the postwar
low band frequencies. I had one of these (TRK-12) in the 1950's for
a while.
Hank
spamtrap1888
> In article <upsog55pvpnjci9cr6akb08sqkkiv44...@4ax.com>,
> Phil Kane <Phil.K...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote:>On 24 Nov 2009 20:48:48 GMT, Mark Roberts <markrobt+use...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>| Wow, I'm surprised that ch. 7 wasn't in use by an analog station in
> >>| a big market like Chicago. What was WLS's analog channel?
>
> >>7, just like the other five-market O&Os (SF, LA, NYC, Chgo, Detroit).
>
> >That goes back to the mid 1940s when ABC was betting on the Low-V (not
> >to be confused with the NY subway car of the same name) channels not
> >being restored, and then Channel 7 would be the first on the dial.
>
> >Remember "dials" ??
>
> Dials? On early TV sets? As I recall, only Dumont used continuous
> tuning (the Inpout/Inductuner, latter made and sold by Mallory).
>
The dial we were implored not to touch, in the phrase memorialized in
"I Am the Slime" by Frank Zappa.
Phil Kane
<news...@fuzzyfaraway.com> wrote:
>According to this article, their pre-transition DTV was ch. 44 (the
>same one they have petitioned the FCC to move back to). They *did*
>flash-cut on ch. 7 at the transition, but discovered that a large
>portion of their viewers had severe problems receiving them, and there
>was a loss of coverage on ch. 7.
"Channel 7" will always be so touted, even if the RF is on some other
channel. Very confusing to us who know the difference.
Phil Kane
<spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The dial we were implored not to touch, in the phrase memorialized in
>"I Am the Slime" by Frank Zappa.
"Don't Touch That Dial" preceded Frank Zapp by many many years.
spamtrap1888
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:07:05 -0800 (PST), spamtrap1888
>
> >The dial we were implored not to touch, in the phrase memorialized in
> >"I Am the Slime" by Frank Zappa.
>
> "Don't Touch That Dial" preceded Frank Zapp by many many years.
True.
Care to wade into the "detented tuner is/is not a dial" discussion?
David Kaye
>
>Care to wade into the "detented tuner is/is not a dial" discussion?
The other night a group of us got into a knock-down brawl and several were
injured with severe concussions, while discussing the difference between
"knob" and "dial". Finally, in order to avoid further bloodshed, someone
looked up "dial" and "knob" in the Merriam Webster online dictionary.
First, the "dial" definition we've grown to know and love, followed by the
current definition:
4 a : a face upon which some measurement is registered usually by means of
graduations and a pointer <the thermometer dial reads 70�F>
b : a device that may be operated to make electrical connections or to
regulate the operation of a machine <a radio dial> <a telephone dial>
RWW
<news...@fuzzyfaraway.com> wrote:
I believe this is the same scenario as WHBF but without moving back to UHF.
They were DTV ch58 pre-transition, and are now staying put down
on ch 4 post-transition, hoping to solve the problem with higher VHF
power authorization and new UHF translator channels.
Just don't know why Ch58 wasn't good enough compared to Ch4, being fine
since 2003.
I receive the signal fine on 4, though, being ~40 miles from the tower
with flat terrain. That tower is one hell of a 1400 ft beast:
http://www.captainerniesshowboat.com/woctower
RWW
"Phil Kane" <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote:
My first memory of the phrase was the narrator on Underdog as the train
approached Polly Purebred who was tied to the tracks. :)
Bhairitu
>
> Dials? On early TV sets? As I recall, only Dumont used continuous
> tuning (the Inpout/Inductuner, latter made and sold by Mallory).
>
> Even the 1939-41 RCA "experimental" (but series-produced and sold to
> the public) TRK sets had fixed click-switch tuning. Typical is the
> TRK-12 console with the mirror in the top, which had 5 channels in the
> low band (there wasn't any high band until postwar).
>
> Those sets were originally 441 lines and AM sound. No great trick to
> crank up the horizonal oscillator frequency and arrange for slope
> detection for the sound; also to tweak the 5 channels to the postwar
> low band frequencies. I had one of these (TRK-12) in the 1950's for
> a while.
>
> Hank
Old TV sets including a 1939 RCA TRK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6FtxF6BUn8
1937 TV Show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nRZ85OWr-8
There are a bunch more clips on early television on YouTube including
some "last day of 405 line BBC" transmissions which took place in 1985.
I wonder if there was as much angst over that as the DTV transition?
norml
with Blooooooondie!
Norm
Phil Kane <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrotf:
Mike Ward
>Just don't know why Ch58 wasn't good enough compared to Ch4, being fine
>since 2003.
The biggest problem: 58 is "out of core" post-transition. WHBF had
no choice but to abandon it, as channels above 52 are now out of the
broadcast spectrum for full-power analog TV. (Of course, there are
still some LPTV analog stragglers.)
Nothing in the rulings forced them to go from 58 to 4, of course. But
they had to go off 58.
Bhairitu
Heh, I bet the "suits" that run these stations are going to learn they
had some stupid ideas regarding moving the channels around. After a
while the public will care less what channel the station is on and
monikers like KRON4 will be meaningless. Some people thought the DTV
transition was going to be a catastrophe too but it turned out to be a
tempest in a teapot.