End of Radio & TV?

[David Kaye]

I just experienced much of the Bill Clinton Foundation broadcast featuring
Lady GaGa, Bono, Stevie Wonder, and a plethora of other acts from the
Hollywood Bowl.

Not on the radio, not on TV, but it was a free (and exclusive) Yahoo
webcast.

I ran the Comcast connection on several computers and all came out just
fine, no jumpiness, no interruptions, no strange artifacts. I'm not sure
how many computers they were serving with this webcast (does anybody know?),
but I will say that given the wide audience this kind of thing must have
gone out to tens of millions of computers, maybe hundreds of millions.

I'm not sure of the interfacing -- was it MBone to regional servers or what,
exactly? What I do know is that the camera work was flawless, the audio
superb -- in short, the webcast was as good or better than what I've seen on
TV.

What does this say about the future of conventional radio and TV?

[Ras Mikaere Enoch Mc Carty]

"David Kaye" <sfdavidka...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I just experienced much of the Bill Clinton Foundation broadcast featuring
> Lady GaGa, Bono, Stevie Wonder, and a plethora of other acts from the
> Hollywood Bowl.

.
.
.
Pathetic Evil Americans !
Bill Clinton And Mena Arkansas, Where Massive
Cocaine Shipments Into The United States. Bono Is
Probably Contemplating Spray Painting Justin Herman
Plaza With Something Like *Stop 322 Skull & Bones*
http://www.exorcist.org.nz/322.html
Bill Clinton Has A Monica
And George Bush Has A Boner Bono.


____________________________________________________________
Ras Mikaere Enoch Mc Carty
Ambassador - Tainui Kiingitanga \ Te Aotearoa
N.Z. M.P. Candidate - Te Wepu Party
http://www.exorcist.org.nz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjGYSGbAEUM&NR=1
Jah AlmighTainui !
http://www.exorcist.org.nz/1967_bolshevik_plot_for_1974.html
http://www.exorcist.org.nz/wait.wav

[Bhairitu]

Do you find it strange that after being freed of wires with broadcasting
we're tied back to them again?

[Phil Kane]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:15:21 -0700, "David Kaye"
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>What does this say about the future of conventional radio and TV?

It says that it's just another gimmick, and is dependent on whomever
sending it out on "broadband" rather than whomever sending it out over
the air. Still needs the intervening link.

I'm taking Continuing Legal Education courses that I download from a
server as MP3 files and play on my computer. The latter is just a
larger version of a radio as far as I'm concerned. I would rather
take these courses in person with a live instructor with whom I can
interact without the necessity of an intervening medium.

Just my own preference.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Kevin McMurtrie]

In article <iXFmq.3123$Q61....@newsfe09.iad>,

Cellphones can stream audio/video and newer car stereos support the A2DP
bluetooth profile. The only downside is that a large crowd of people
depletes a cell's bandwidth.
--
I will not see posts from Google because I must filter them as spam

[John Slade]

On 10/15/2011 11:15 PM, David Kaye wrote:

> I just experienced much of the Bill Clinton Foundation broadcast featuring
> Lady GaGa, Bono, Stevie Wonder, and a plethora of other acts from the
> Hollywood Bowl.

I saw Clinton talk about this concert on Letterman and
tuned in yesterday just when Stevie Wonder was singing. Did he
sing "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" with Hillary sitting there? I
suspect that would bring up a lot of bad memories for her.

> I'm not sure of the interfacing -- was it MBone to regional servers or what,
> exactly? What I do know is that the camera work was flawless, the audio
> superb -- in short, the webcast was as good or better than what I've seen on
> TV.
>
> What does this say about the future of conventional radio and TV?
>

I was reading something or heard that a pretty big
percentage of TV, audio and movies are watched on the Internet
these days. I think it was a third or maybe half of TV shows are
now watched via the Internet. It's not surprising because it's
convenient as hell being able to watch what you want whenever
you want. Most people I know watch most stuff via the Internet
or recording.

John

[David Kaye]

"John Slade" <hhit...@pacbell.net> wrote

> Most people I know watch most stuff via the Internet or recording.

The teenaged son of one of my computer customers knows WNYC's Radiolab and
This American Life only via pocasts, not via radio. I'm not sure he even
owns a radio unless it's in his MP3 player or something.

[David Kaye]

"Bhairitu" <nooz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote

> Do you find it strange that after being freed of wires with broadcasting
> we're tied back to them again?

When I grew up there were a few on-air channels, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, and
sometimes 11. We pulled them in via rabbitears atop the set.

But when my dad wanted to pull in 8 and 11 and 13 we got a rooftop antenna,
so we were wired fairly early in the game. After cable came into use we got
rid of the 300 ohm twinlead wire for 75 ohm round wire.

Tonight I'm looking at 75 ohm lead-in which goes to the computer. So, not
much as changed in 40 years.

But we're not as tied as we once were. I could have viewed the webcast on a
laptop via a cafe or one of the free wireless links Tim has been setting up
around SF. Look ma, no wires.

[David Kaye]

"Phil Kane" <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote

> It says that it's just another gimmick, and is dependent on whomever
> sending it out on "broadband" rather than whomever sending it out over
> the air. Still needs the intervening link.

Not a gimmick at all. I can see a very near future when the cable networks
and such all start streaming. Then there will be no need for DTV or cable
TV service at all. This would free Comcast's cable for even faster
broadband service. No need to push conventional TV through the cable.

As for radio, well, last night I checked out the various international
broadcasters I used to pull in on SW. NHK Radio Japan, Radio Canada, Radio
Australia, Radio Nederland, BBC, VOA, RAI -- all have websites with live
streams, and have been shutting down their SW broadcasts. I'm putting
together a quick web page that lists their streams so I can easily click on
what I want.

Anybody have need for a Radio Shack DX-440/Sangeaon 803?

> I would rather
> take these courses in person with a live instructor with whom I can
> interact without the necessity of an intervening medium.

As I've said here in the past, I coordinate a games group that meets twice a
week in SF and also in LA. Many/most of the people who attend are computer
geeks, but they put away their smartphones and netbooks and whatnot and play
real board games in person with other real people each week. Some things
just work better in real life than in virtual life.

[SoCalTom]

On 16 Oct 2011 02:46 PM ,Phil Kane wrote:
> It says that it's just another gimmick, and is dependent on whomever
> sending it out on "broadband" rather than whomever sending it out over
> the air. Still needs the intervening link.
>

I don't believe it's just a gimmick. Leo Laporte uses video (www.twit.tv) to show how his weekly radio (on KGO, KFI, and others) show is done. And it looks pretty darn good to boot. And his podcasts are accompanied with video.

Leo uses a device called a Tricaster to switch video, and with special effects (such as graphics in the lower third) added in. Tricasters ain't cheap either, with the cheapest one going for $10K.

--
SoCal Tom (WA6KSS)

--
Posted by Mimo Usenet Browser v0.2.4
http://www.goldenfrog.com/mimo/post

[Bhairitu]

Of course and I'm one of the people doing that. I listen to Thom
Hartman on my morning walk that way because KKGN was too weak to work
even with my Sony Walkman.

[Bhairitu]

On 10/16/2011 09:09 PM, David Kaye wrote:
> "Phil Kane"<Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote
>
>> It says that it's just another gimmick, and is dependent on whomever
>> sending it out on "broadband" rather than whomever sending it out over
>> the air. Still needs the intervening link.
>
> Not a gimmick at all. I can see a very near future when the cable networks
> and such all start streaming. Then there will be no need for DTV or cable
> TV service at all. This would free Comcast's cable for even faster
> broadband service. No need to push conventional TV through the cable.
>

Indeed. The Netflix phenomena sort of caught the telecom "suits" by
surprise. It's happening too soon for Comcast to go to IPTV like
U-Verse. And AT&T and Comcast offerings are rather weak compared to
what you can get over streaming at your convenience. You have Netflix,
Amazon and Vudu for a wide variety of streaming content including
theatrical pre-releases. Then there are "also rans" such as Blockbuster
streaming, CinemaNow, HuluPlus and YouTube.

My first streaming DVD player was an AVeL LinkPlayer2 which upscaled
over component and could play HDTV streams, hidef Divx, MP4 (simple
profile) and WMV. I used my computers as DVRs that way. They also had
some Internet streams including ShoutCast ones and even.

[Phil Kane]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:09:38 -0700, "David Kaye"
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>As for radio, well, last night I checked out the various international
>broadcasters I used to pull in on SW. NHK Radio Japan, Radio Canada, Radio
>Australia, Radio Nederland, BBC, VOA, RAI -- all have websites with live
>streams, and have been shutting down their SW broadcasts.

SW - the sounds, the techniques to get a signal in that is usable and
even enjoyable. The glow of the radio dial. One misses all that in
"streaming audio". IT's the difference between a radio operator and
an appliance operator.

This past weekend we went to the TEK-Museum, a storefront set up just
this month by a number of friends who were former Tektronix
engineering employees - there are several thousands of them in this
area - with restored to-new-condition instruments from throughout
Tektronix history. Many of them still work. Several were models that
I used during my career. Many of the instruments on display came from
personal collections. It looked right. It even smelled right.

Don't knock history.
---
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Phil Kane]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:11:24 -0700, "David Kaye"
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The teenaged son of one of my computer customers knows WNYC's Radiolab and
>This American Life only via pocasts, not via radio. I'm not sure he even
>owns a radio unless it's in his MP3 player or something.

When I think of WNYC I surely don't think of it as a source of those
programs, nor of them as a podcast source. Does your customer's son
have any idea of the place that WNYC had in the New York broadcasting
scene over the years?

[SMS]

On 10/15/2011 11:15 PM, David Kaye wrote:

<snip>

> What does this say about the future of conventional radio and TV?

For TV, it means that data caps are essential for AT&T and Comcast to
preserve their digital TV revenue.

For radio it probably doesn't mean much since so much radio is listened
to while mobile. Also, free terrestrial radio is improving greatly, in
audio quality anyway, with the advent of digital radio. Not that much
better quality audio will do anything for the quality of programming!

I wonder how many area residents would be happy paying a one time
expense for a good antenna on a tower versus paying $50 or more for
satellite TV or $80 or more for cable?

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/17/2011 5:10 PM, SMS wrote:
> On 10/15/2011 11:15 PM, David Kaye wrote:

>> [...]

Me, for one; see here: <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/LX200/>.

I was working at Sylvania's (then; later GTE's) Electronic Defense Labs
in Mountain View when a group of about 50 of us pooled our resources
to install the "world's best TV antenna" at our homes using an antenna
designed for the US military. Legal stepped in and said we couldn't do
that because the design would be seen by "commie spies" who roamed
Silicon Valley back in those days (1960s). We had already ordered all
the towers, so we added commercial antennas (Winegard IIRC) to the deal
and installed all of them in 1967.

It was kinda cool; I could watch the "U.F.O." (Gerry Anderson show,
details here <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063962/>) twice weekly; once
on Channel 5 in San Francisco, then on Channel 10 in Sacramento, simply
by rotating the antenna. Now, of course, I have that series on both
LaserDisc and DVD. :-)

I've replaced the UHF/VHS antennas twice since then due to the wear
and tear outside, and the rotator once. It still works fine for DTV
and also broadcast FM and HD-Radio. I had to get an HD-Radio receiver
for my favorite background-music station, KKSF, which is now piggybacked
at 98.1-2; it used to be 103.7 FM. See: <http://www.kksf.com/main.html>.

[SMS]

On 10/17/2011 6:12 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:

<snip>

> I've replaced the UHF/VHS antennas twice since then due to the wear
> and tear outside, and the rotator once. It still works fine for DTV
> and also broadcast FM and HD-Radio. I had to get an HD-Radio receiver
> for my favorite background-music station, KKSF, which is now piggybacked
> at 98.1-2; it used to be 103.7 FM. See:<http://www.kksf.com/main.html>.

In a way it's sad to see much good content moving off of HD1/analog and
onto the HD sub-channels, but OTOH the alternative would be for that
content to disappear completely.

[Thad Floryan]

Very true. I've contemplated replacing my car's radio also, but that's a
major task and expense given how much is combined into the single console
(A/C controls, date/time, in/out temperature displays, etc.) so I haven't
done that. The FM broadcast counterpart to KKSF is someplace north of SF
and beyond the range of my car's radio, but I am able to get KCSM in San
Mateo at 91.1 FM though it's not the same "style" of jazz as KKSF. Sigh.

[SMS]

I know that for some cars you can set up the "SAT" function to be HD
Radio with an appropriate tuner, i.e.
<http://www.pac-audio.com/productDetails.aspx?ProductId=914&CategoryID=36>.

I know that many, if not most, vehicle owners would like to receive the
HD signals but they don't necessarily want to buy a 2012 vehicle in
order to do so.

[Eric Weaver]

When multicast protocol finally happens, it'll be the cell carriers
who drive it because they'll have to.

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/17/2011 8:04 PM, SMS wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 7:01 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
>> On 10/17/2011 6:38 PM, SMS wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2011 6:12 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:

>>> [...]
>> [...]

>> Very true. I've contemplated replacing my car's radio also, but that's a
>> major task and expense given how much is combined into the single console
>> (A/C controls, date/time, in/out temperature displays, etc.) so I haven't
>> done that. The FM broadcast counterpart to KKSF is someplace north of SF
>> and beyond the range of my car's radio, but I am able to get KCSM in San
>> Mateo at 91.1 FM though it's not the same "style" of jazz as KKSF. Sigh.
>
> I know that for some cars you can set up the "SAT" function to be HD
> Radio with an appropriate tuner, i.e.
> <http://www.pac-audio.com/productDetails.aspx?ProductId=914&CategoryID=36>.
>
> I know that many, if not most, vehicle owners would like to receive the
> HD signals but they don't necessarily want to buy a 2012 vehicle in
> order to do so.

Now THAT's an interesting solution! Thank you very much for the link.

At first glance it appeared that it would work with my car radio and avoid
any externally visible changes (due to "CD", etc.).

My car mfr, model and year shows up in their selection list along with a
variety of choices, but none of those choices feature the HD-Radio option
as does the above URL's selection you supplied, so I'm out of luck (it's a
2001 Aurora, "only" the 4th car I've bought since 1960). Oh, well, it's
back to CDs for long(er) trips than to just the local supermarket. :-)

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:01:59 -0700, Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com>
wrote:

>I've contemplated replacing my car's radio also, but that's a

>major task and expense ...

See:
<http://www.mp3car.com/show-off-your-project/>
for examples of how it's done. Search for your vehicle for hints. I
have most of the pieces for replacing the AM/FM/CD/cassette monster in
my Subaru, except for the courage and time to rip up the dashboard.
Also, no easy place to mount the necessary LCD touch screen.

However, I just became inspired to move my car radio project along.
The only station I consider worth listening to just changed format
from all classical music, to something else:
<http://www.kbach.com>
I can't hear KDFC in SCZ so I guess it's going to be CD's and MP3's
from here on.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

[David Kaye]

"SMS" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote

> I wonder how many area residents would be happy paying a one time expense
> for a good antenna on a tower versus paying $50 or more for satellite TV
> or $80 or more for cable?

Gosh, Astoria Oregon all over again (supposedly the founding place of CATV,
when residents who felt left out of the TV revolution chipped in to build a
tower and put up an antenna to get the Seattle stations.

[David Kaye]

"Phil Kane" <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote

> SW - the sounds, the techniques to get a signal in that is usable and
> even enjoyable. The glow of the radio dial.

The smell of the components heating up in a tube radio, yeah I'm nostalgic
for all of that, too. There was a certain mystery about it all. I remember
DXing the VOA relay station in Monrovia Liberia the day it went on the air.
Yeah it was the VOA and yeah I could have gotten a better signal from
Greenville, Dixon, or Delano, but Monrovia was special.

I also remember sitting up late at night listening to the Voice of Free
Korea, Radio Peking, and the various Radio Moscow broadcasts from the worst
sounding transmitters I'd ever heard.

What I also remember is that I don't remember much about the actual content
of those broadcasts. The communists were calling us Americans "running
dogs" for capitalism. Radio Nederland had some kind of contest to win a
pair of wooden Dutch shoes or something. But overall, for me it was the
experience of listening, not actually learning anything that kept me up late
at night.

> with restored to-new-condition instruments from throughout
> Tektronix history. Many of them still work. Several were models that
> I used during my career. Many of the instruments on display came from
> personal collections. It looked right. It even smelled right.

Tech museums (even Tek museums) do nothing for me, maybe because I don't
want to revisit things from my own life. Early stuff, definitely.

For example, the Coos county historical museum in North Bend Oregon has a
fascinating display that includes candelabras that provided heat for hot air
balloons the Japanese sailed across the Pacific during WWII, hoping that
these balloons would land and set fires to the areas along the coast. Of
course, given the PNW's near continuous rain and mist, most of them went out
before the reached land. HOWEVER, several of them actually did touch land
and at least a couple did end up setting small fires. Amazing stuff! Now,
that's technology I can wrap myself around.

[David Kaye]

"Phil Kane" <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote

> Does your customer's son
> have any idea of the place that WNYC had in the New York broadcasting
> scene over the years?

Nope, nor does he care. He's growing up in the 2010s and you're referring
to the 1960s I believe. That's 40-50 years. That's comparable to me
growing up and being expected to appreciate the silent film era. I don't
(though Theda Bara was very cute and all...)

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/17/2011 8:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:01:59 -0700, Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I've contemplated replacing my car's radio also, but that's a
>> major task and expense ...
>
> See:
> <http://www.mp3car.com/show-off-your-project/>
> for examples of how it's done. Search for your vehicle for hints.

Interesting. I did find 4 pages that were returned searching for my
car's make/model, and even one the same year who is still struggling
with finding the CD-changer connections. I have the complete service
manuals for the car (I buy such for all my cars) and need to peruse
them further for some ideas and possibly adapting the PAC kits.

Most of the articles on that (and the following 118 pages) deal with
installing car-puters. If that was my interest, I'd use this:

<http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-openrdcdetails.aspx>

Be sure to hover the mouse over the "Product with Enclosure", "Inside
view of product", "Front Panel" and "Back Panel" text to see the
different views. And, yes, that has two GiGE ports, RS-232, and VGA
among its other interfaces. :-)

It operates off 12VDC and is part of the SheevaPlug family I use
(which operate from the 5 VDC (only) output from its PSU which draws
only 4 to 5 Watts per one of my Kill-A-Watt units):

<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/SheevaPlug_GuruPlug.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/SheevaPlug_underside.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/SheevaPlug_CPU_card_top.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/SheevaPlug_CPU_card_bottom.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/SheevaPlug_PSU_replacement.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Sheevaplug_Webmin.jpg>

root@lanserv1:~# date
Mon Oct 17 21:37:31 PDT 2011
root@lanserv1:~# uptime
21:37:32 up 135 days, 46 min, 1 user, load average: 0.16, 0.14, 0.09
root@lanserv1:~# uname -sn
Linux lanserv1
root@lanserv1:~# cat /etc/issue
Ubuntu 9.04 \n \l

> [...]

> I have most of the pieces for replacing the AM/FM/CD/cassette monster
> in my Subaru, except for the courage and time to rip up the dashboard.
> Also, no easy place to mount the necessary LCD touch screen.
>
> However, I just became inspired to move my car radio project along.
> The only station I consider worth listening to just changed format
> from all classical music, to something else:
> <http://www.kbach.com>
> I can't hear KDFC in SCZ so I guess it's going to be CD's and MP3's
> from here on.

Probably same here (CDs only for me though I need to check if the car
CD player will handle MP3s burned onto CD) if I cannot find a reasonable
and relatively inexpensive solution. Buying a new car is simply not an
option for me -- mine last over 200,000 miles and 17 to 30+ years. :-)

[jcdill]

On 17/10/11 8:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> However, I just became inspired to move my car radio project along.
> The only station I consider worth listening to just changed format
> from all classical music, to something else:
> <http://www.kbach.com>
> I can't hear KDFC in SCZ so I guess it's going to be CD's and MP3's
> from here on.

What, you don't listen to the Pig?

jc

[jcdill]

(Hit send too fast)

One oh Seven Oink Five, KPIG.

jc

[Dave Barnett]

On 10/18/2011 6:43 AM, jcdill wrote:

>> What, you don't listen to the Pig?
>
> (Hit send too fast)
>
> One oh Seven Oink Five, KPIG.
>
> jc

Yeah, that's ironic, huh. Thad receives a radio station via HD and KPIG
is overcome by interference in Silicon Valley, thanks to another
station's HD.

If only somehow they could all get together.

Dave B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:42:02 -0700, jcdill <jcdill...@gmail.com>
wrote:

ah did lissen t'KPIG long ago. It's not fo' me. Th' signal is also
rather weak in SLV. Sometime af'er ah was born an' raised, ah
contracked a bad case of culture, which means ah have t'lissen t'high
brow moosic, mostly t'keep up appeareences. When ah git bo'ed wif
classical, it's noo age moosic when ah's hankerin' t'relax, o' 1960's
eleckric acid rock when ah's hankerin' t'wake up.
<http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/>
<http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KPIG&service=FM>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:10:58 -0700, "David Kaye"
<sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Astoria Oregon all over again (supposedly the founding place of CATV,

Johnstown, PA (among others) makes that claim as well. The "mover and
shaker" of that was none other than Milton J. Shapp, a well-known
electrical engineer who was the founder of Jerrold Electronics (his
middle name was Jerrold) and much later the Governor of Pennsylvania
after he became a multi-millionaire by selling Jerrold to General
Instruments.

[SMS]

The FCC was well aware that there would be interference outside the
protected contour. See:
<http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-02-286A1.pdf>,
page 6, item 15. It's too bad you can't get KPIG in Silicon Valley, but
if you want to hear it you could move to the area that KPIG actually is
licensed to cover.

[spamtrap1888]

In the 80s when I lived in Fremont, I would listen to KPIG all the
time, thanks to diffraction.

[Dave Barnett]

On 10/18/2011 5:16 PM, SMS wrote:
>
> The FCC was well aware that there would be interference outside the
> protected contour. See:
> <http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-02-286A1.pdf>,
> page 6, item 15. It's too bad you can't get KPIG in Silicon Valley, but
> if you want to hear it you could move to the area that KPIG actually is
> licensed to cover.
>
>

This has been discussed many times over, and it's understood that the
FCC willfully allows the interference to exist. That document is now
nine years old, and it's obvious that they didn't truly investigate the
spectrum mask or real-world conditions at that time. Remember, IBOC
(which became HD radio) was approved by an FCC that was less focused on
engineering and trying to grapple with selling spectrum and defining
obscenity rules.

I have no argument with the facts, which are:

1. The FCC allows the interference to exist
2. KPIG used to be listenable all around the South Bay.

I do actually use the concept of "radio location" as a factor in
choosing where I live, along with many other considerations. I did,
indeed, choose this place partly because of FM reception. That was
before HD, however. But the concept of actually moving to hear a radio
station is probably not on the radar.

Dave B.

[John Higdon]

In article
<06f5f2f8-8457-4a1d...@y35g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the 80s when I lived in Fremont, I would listen to KPIG all the
> time, thanks to diffraction.

When listeners can hear stations, they are served. When they con only
hear hash where a station used to be, they are not. I've never
understood how that serves the public interest, convenience, and
necessity.

--
John Higdon
+1 408 ANdrews 6-4400
A Cumulus Listener

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/18/2011 7:38 PM, John Higdon wrote:
> In article
> <06f5f2f8-8457-4a1d...@y35g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In the 80s when I lived in Fremont, I would listen to KPIG all the
>> time, thanks to diffraction.
>
> When listeners can hear stations, they are served. When they con only
> hear hash where a station used to be, they are not. I've never
> understood how that serves the public interest, convenience, and
> necessity.

The situation with LightSquared and GPS is yet another example of
how the FCC ignores its charter. There's an interesting thread in
comp.dcom.telecom which I'm aggregating and will combine with other
info on a web page soon. The USAF General who runs the GPS system
reversed his earlier [forced] statement and now states GPS will be
affected if LightSquared's ground-based transference of the original
satellite-based allocated frequencies is allowed to continue. This
is a political play and someone's head(s) will roll.

[jcdill]

On 18/10/11 5:42 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

> In the 80s when I lived in Fremont, I would listen to KPIG all the
> time, thanks to diffraction.

Which part of the 80s?

According to Wikipedia, KFAT aired from 1975 thru January 1983. KPIG
didn't start up until 1988.

jc

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:06:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>>What, you don't listen to the Pig?
>>jc
>

>Th' signal is also rather weak in SLV.

I lied. I listened to KPIG on my way home from SCZ to Ben Lomond up
Hwy 9 and got a good strong signal. Sorry for the misinformation.

[Roy]

KFAT was a Gilroy radio station but that's only where the studio was.
The transmitter was somewhere along the stop of the coastal hills and
may have been on Loma Prieta.

[jcdill]

On 18/10/11 10:39 PM, Roy wrote:
> On 10/18/2011 9:41 PM, jcdill wrote:
>> On 18/10/11 5:42 PM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
>>
>>> In the 80s when I lived in Fremont, I would listen to KPIG all the
>>> time, thanks to diffraction.
>>
>> Which part of the 80s?
>>
>> According to Wikipedia, KFAT aired from 1975 thru January 1983. KPIG
>> didn't start up until 1988.

> KFAT was a Gilroy radio station but that's only where the studio was.
> The transmitter was somewhere along the stop of the coastal hills and
> may have been on Loma Prieta.

I know. My point was that if you listened to this music format "in the
80s" you were more likely to have been listening to KFAT from 1980-1983
than to be listening to KPIG from 1988-1989.

jc

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/18/2011 9:41 PM, jcdill wrote:

KFAT. That brings back memories. :-) I have the last 36 hours of
their last broadcast on 1/4" tape(s) in my archives. ISTR they also
made use of the SCA channel (which I can decode) and the story was
the station owner used the SCA channel to send messages to his wife.

Other uses of the SCA channel include Talking Books for the Blind,
"elevator" music, etc.

[Thad Floryan]

Two things:

1. Correcting the above "Other uses of the SCA channel ..." to be
"Other uses of an SCA channel ..." because KFAT most assuredly
did NOT broadcast "Talking Books for the Blind" over SCA. :-)

2. For those who don't know what KFAT broadcasted, songs such as
"Moose Turd Pie" and related were commonly heard. A lot of the
songs were irreverently hilarious. Wikipedia has a brief blurb:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFAT_%28defunct%29>

It's a bummer that KPIG isn't available in Silicon Valley. Couldn't
a repeater on Mt. Umunhum be used? I believe that's what KFAT did
since their studio was in Gilroy.

[Dave Barnett]

On 10/18/2011 11:24 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
>
> It's a bummer that KPIG isn't available in Silicon Valley. Couldn't
> a repeater on Mt. Umunhum be used? I believe that's what KFAT did
> since their studio was in Gilroy.

KFAT's transmitter was, indeed, on Loma Prieta. They had a signal that
could be heard from King City to Santa Rosa, as well as Sonora,
Sacramento, and Placerville. This was before the addition of many other
FM stations on nearby frequencies, of course.

When KFAT went off the air, the format was resurrected on KHIP, 93.5 for
a while. From what I heard that operation was plagued with trouble,
including the need to maintain a generator at the transmitter site,
where there was no power. They also had a fire in their studio, IIRC.
KHIP failed after a few years, and then came KPIG. All three of those
signals were receivable on a boom box in Newark, so I suspect they all
could be received in Fremont as well.

The FCC rules regarding repeater/translators for commercial stations are
very strict, pretty much precluding the possibility of a repeater for
KPIG on Mt. Umunhum. I think the only way that signal will return is if
107.7 decides to shut off their HD transmitter or Mapleton purchases a
full-power commercial channel in the South Bay. Neither one of those is
likely to happen for at least a couple of years, IMHO.

Dave B.

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/18/2011 8:57 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
> [...]

> The situation with LightSquared and GPS is yet another example of
> how the FCC ignores its charter. There's an interesting thread in
> comp.dcom.telecom which I'm aggregating and will combine with other
> info on a web page soon. The USAF General who runs the GPS system
> reversed his earlier [forced] statement and now states GPS will be
> affected if LightSquared's ground-based transference of the original
> satellite-based allocated frequencies is allowed to continue. This
> is a political play and someone's head(s) will roll.

This URL just appeared a few minutes ago in comp.dcom.telecom:

<http://science.house.gov/press-release/transparency-needed-evaluate-gps-interference>

Short extract:
"
" "Despite the Administration's claims of unprecedented
" transparency, the American public wouldn't know about the impact
" of LightSquared's interference on GPS if it weren't for the
" diligence of Congressional oversight." said Chairman Broun. "We
" need this Administration to be open about the impacts of
" LightSquared's network on the GPS signal."
"
" The FCC requested comments on LightSquared's proposal on July
" 30th, with a deadline of August 15th. While some agencies have
" complied with the Committee's request, the Department of Homeland
" Security (DHS) and the Department of Commerce (DOC), including
" the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and
" the National Institutes of Standards and Technology (NIST),
" continue to withhold this information. Today, Chairmen Hall and
" Broun sent letters to DHS, NIST, and NOAA, once again requesting
" their assessments be provided to the Committee.
"
" [...]
"
" Chairman Hall said, 'The ramifications of destroying critical
" national security and economic infrastructure such as GPS should
" be fully vetted in the light of day. Everyone supports expanded
" wireless broadband capacity in the United States and I hope we
" can find a way to make it happen. But it absolutely cannot
" happen behind closed doors and with backroom deals."
"
" Hall continued, "Unfortunately, this is an issue that the
" Committee is unable to fully address because of the refusal of
" certain agencies to release their experts' technical evaluations.
" For the benefit of all parties, today I am releasing the agency
" documents submitted thus far for the record in an attempt to
" shine some light on the issues that have been raised."

URL links to those documents can be found here:

<http://science.house.gov/lightsquared-impact-assessments>

from these responders to date:

EPA response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 10.05.2011
DOE response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 09.07.2011
NSF response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 09.02.2011
NASA response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 08.03.2011
FAA response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 07.26.2011
DOT response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 07.21.2011
DOI response: LightSquared Impact Assessment 07.07.2011

[John Higdon]

In article
<yOCdnaBuIvEz_wPT...@posted.southvalleyinternet>,

Roy <aa...@aa4re.ampr.org> wrote:

> KFAT was a Gilroy radio station but that's only where the studio was.
> The transmitter was somewhere along the stop of the coastal hills and
> may have been on Loma Prieta.

KFAT (originally KPER, then KSND) transmitted with 90 watts ERP from a
200' self-supporting tower on Mt. Madonna on 94.3 MHz. Due to insoluble
problems with intermodulation in the Fresno market, the 94.5 allocation
there was deleted.

This opened the opportunity for Lorenzo Milam and Jeremy Lansman (with
myself as a minor partner) to purchase the station from Dick Ryan, and
then file for a reclassification from Class A on 94.3 to Class B at
94.5. With the upgraded facilities provided by Class B designation, it
was possible to cover the city of license, Gilroy, from Loma Prieta with
1200 watts ERP.

Being on Loma Prieta (Building Loma 3, specifically), it also overlooked
the San Francisco Bay. The station broadcasted as KFAT from Mt. Madonna
for a short period while the reclassification process was completed.
Jeremy and I hauled on of the RCA transmitters up to Loma in the dead of
night, and so became KFAT on 94.5.

This lasted three years (the requisite waiting period to sell an
acquired station for profit in those days) from approximately 1975 to
1978, at which time the station was put on the market which was the
original intent of the project. In 1979 a buyer was found (Harvey Levin)
who promised to keep the format. Not long after Harvey bought the
station, moved the studios to the Gilroy Hotel, and replaced every piece
of equipment from the styli to the antenna, he died. The station was
sold to Western Cities and became KWSS. It changed hands a time or two,
became KUFX ("K-FOX"), and after a shuffle of owners, it became KBAY
(the old KBAY on 100.3 had become KBRG). KBAY on 94.5 is still licensed
to Gilroy.

CBS, the owner at that time, determined that 1200 watts from Loma didn't
penetrate buildings all that well in the San Jose area, so it was moved
to Coyote Peak with mid-five-digit power. 45KW, its current power, is
plenty to be heard everywhere in the Silicon Valley without difficulty.

I've had my hands on that station since Wheatstone Bridge (the
Milam-Lansman partnership referred to above) acquired it in 1975, with
only a minor gap. My account is first-hand.

[John Higdon]

In article <4E9E68B2...@thadlabs.com>,

Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com> wrote:

> ISTR they also
> made use of the SCA channel (which I can decode) and the story was
> the station owner used the SCA channel to send messages to his wife.

Which owner? I think that is pure fantasy.

> Other uses of the SCA channel include Talking Books for the Blind,
> "elevator" music, etc.

I don't recall any real use made of the SCA on KFAT other than some of
the messing around that Jeremy did. After it became KWSS there may have
been some minor activities there.

Currently, the SCAs are gone for some technical reasons too involved to
discuss here (thank gawd).

[Thad Floryan]

On 10/19/2011 9:37 AM, John Higdon wrote:
> In article <4E9E68B2...@thadlabs.com>,
> Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com> wrote:
>
>> ISTR they also
>> made use of the SCA channel (which I can decode) and the story was
>> the station owner used the SCA channel to send messages to his wife.
>
> Which owner? I think that is pure fantasy.

Way back when, I used to buy the annual "FM Atlas" and I recall
that comment about using SCA to contact the wife was there. Here
is some info about the Atlas:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Elving>
<http://www.manta.com/c/mm8n71r/f-m-atlas>
<http://www.americanradiohistory.com/FM-Atlas-Master-Page.htm>
<http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/books/2329.html>

One of the features of the FM Atlas was a complete compendium
of all stations using SCA.

Ah, it's back to being current again per:

<http://www.rwonline.com/default.aspx?tabid=68&entryid=32>

> [...]

> Currently, the SCAs are gone for some technical reasons too involved to
> discuss here (thank gawd).

Gone? That doesn't appear to be the case:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiary_communications_authority>
<http://www.fineware-swl.com/sca.html>

though I haven't used the tuner into which I built the SCA
decoder for awhile.

[John Higdon]

In article <4E9F024...@thadlabs.com>,

Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com> wrote:

> One of the features of the FM Atlas was a complete compendium
> of all stations using SCA.

Those things are either out of date or or otherwise inaccurate to be of
any value.

> Gone? That doesn't appear to be the case:
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiary_communications_authority>
> <http://www.fineware-swl.com/sca.html>

I was talking about 94.5, not making a sweeping statement about the
entire band. Unlike others here, I tend to speak from personal knowledge
or offer opinions clearly labeled as such. I have personal knowledge of
94.5.

> though I haven't used the tuner into which I built the SCA
> decoder for awhile.

You would have found FMExtra up until just recently on 94.5.

[Phil Kane]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:05:38 -0700, Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com>
wrote:

>Other uses of the SCA channel include Talking Books for the Blind,
>"elevator" music, etc.

And as a "poor man's TSL" for transmitter status data (the back link
of the remote control system).

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:37:31 -0700, John Higdon <hi...@kome.com>
wrote:

>Currently, the SCAs are gone for some technical reasons too involved to
>discuss here (thank gawd).

List of SF Bay audio SCA stations as of a year ago:
<http://www.radiobern.com/sca/>
Nothing showing data usage on the list.
I haven't checked this because my service monitor is temporarily
kaput.

[Kimmi]

On Oct 19, 10:16 am, John Higdon <hi...@kome.com> wrote:
>
> You would have found FMExtra up until just recently on 94.5.
>

What happened to FM Extra?

[John Higdon]

In article
<45a1bafa-f4a7-4220...@t38g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

It's still out there, but there is even less promotion than with IBOC.
It has an advantage in that it sounds better, but the truth is that
there isn't anything wrong with analog FM, so if that's all it offers,
what's the point?

[John Higdon]

In article <9gpu97p2kofpf4anh...@4ax.com>,

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

> List of SF Bay audio SCA stations as of a year ago:
> <http://www.radiobern.com/sca/>
> Nothing showing data usage on the list.
> I haven't checked this because my service monitor is temporarily
> kaput.

Most of the non-data SCAs are foreign language programs, typically
far-east languages.

Those of us in the biz use a non-PC term to refer to SCAs.

[Mark Roberts]

["Followup-To:" header set to ba.broadcast.]
Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com> had written:

|
| Way back when, I used to buy the annual "FM Atlas" and I recall
| that comment about using SCA to contact the wife was there. Here
| is some info about the Atlas:
|
| <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Elving>
| <http://www.manta.com/c/mm8n71r/f-m-atlas>
| <http://www.americanradiohistory.com/FM-Atlas-Master-Page.htm>
| <http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/books/2329.html>
|
| One of the features of the FM Atlas was a complete compendium
| of all stations using SCA.
|
| Ah, it's back to being current again per:
|
| <http://www.rwonline.com/default.aspx?tabid=68&entryid=32>

Dr. Elving passed away in July:

<http://www.wtfda.info/showthread.php?6458-Bruce-Elving-Passes>

Too soon to tell if there'll be a 22nd edition of the atlas.
(Thank goodness I got the 21st from Scott Fybush.) It was a
one-of-a-kind publication, for sure.


--
Mark Roberts - E-Mail address is valid but I don't use Google Groups
If you quote, please quote only relevant passages and not the whole article.

[Hank]

In article <3jbp971pe2uqcq671...@4ax.com>,
Phil Kane <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote:
>
>SW - the sounds, the techniques to get a signal in that is usable and
>even enjoyable. The glow of the radio dial. One misses all that in
>"streaming audio". IT's the difference between a radio operator and
>an appliance operator.
>
Ah yess! about twenty years ago I rebuilt a couple of 1940's radios
that would do SW. One, a large AM-FM-SW Magnavox console, is great
for producing that good old console sound. But what it really needs
is Fred Allen or Jack Benny. Has selectable IF coupling, so it was
a good WQXR receiver.

The other, an RME-45 that appears to have been originally built as a
US Navy prototype. Sort of hard to tell from the wiring, as it had
gotten a bunch of ham "improvements," many not compatible with the
design. Needed a power transformer to boot. By the time I was done
with it, it had been completely stripped, all components out of a bare
chassis. Some work with a Boonton 260A Q-meter straightened out the
front end coils and IF's. I had to adapt the power supply to a
replacement transformer that was a mechanical fit, but 750 VCT for the
B supply instead of 600---which was already too high. Choke input
filter took care of that (and lowered B+ by about 40 volts). Redid
the front end with later loctals and some parameter changes, so it's
not an RME-45 as RME built it. The results were spectacular.

>This past weekend we went to the TEK-Museum, a storefront set up just
>this month by a number of friends who were former Tektronix
>engineering employees - there are several thousands of them in this
>area - with restored to-new-condition instruments from throughout
>Tektronix history. Many of them still work. Several were models that
>I used during my career. Many of the instruments on display came from
>personal collections. It looked right. It even smelled right.
>
>Don't knock history.

Where is that museum located? And I wonder how many of those old
scopes came out of Stan Griffiths' 7-car garage. Most of the time, it
isn't too much work to get one of the 530/540-series boatanchors back
up and running. Many of them will still be working and useful when
they hit the century mark. Probably know a few of those thousands of
ex-Tek engineers, though the youngest would be around 70.

I also wonder what has become of the very first 511 scope. Tek bought
that back in the early 60's, refurbished it to "original," and had it
on display for years.

Howard Vollum's Tektronix was, for about 20-25 years, the business
wonder of the high tech world. When he and Jack Murdock began the
business, Portland had absolutely zero for a high-tech labor pool, so
in-house training was a big thing. And one of the more remarkable
accomplishments was that between 1953, when the 530-series plug-in
scopes hit the market, and about 1959, Tek captured almost all of the
US oscillosope market from DuMont.

Hank (ex-Tek 1960-65)

[Kimmi]

On Oct 19, 7:09 pm, John Higdon <hi...@kome.com> wrote:
> In article

>
> It's still out there, but there is even less promotion than with IBOC.
> It has an advantage in that it sounds better, but the truth is that
> there isn't anything wrong with analog FM, so if that's all it offers,
> what's the point?
>

True. And the lack of FMeXxtra aka VuCast receivers didn't help.
Nothing was
wrong with good ol' analogue.

[SMS]

It disappeared. There was only going to be one IBOC scheme, and HD Radio
has significant advantages in terms of audio quality.

For FMExtra you could have 40 kbit/s of digital (along with analog) or
156 kbit/s all-digital. For HD you get much higher rates and hence
better audio quality.

[spamtrap1888]

On Oct 19, 7:56 pm, han...@blackhole.lostwells.net (Hank) wrote:
> In article <3jbp971pe2uqcq671e2pt5trptcr42p...@4ax.com>,

> Howard Vollum's Tektronix was, for about 20-25 years, the business
> wonder of the high tech world.  When he and Jack Murdock began the
> business, Portland had absolutely zero for a high-tech labor pool, so
> in-house training was a big thing.  And one of the more remarkable
> accomplishments was that between 1953, when the 530-series plug-in
> scopes hit the market, and about 1959, Tek captured almost all of the
> US oscillosope market from DuMont.  

I wonder if the base Tek laid is what lured HP and Intel (Intel
anyway) into Oregon. HP could never make an analog scope as good as
Tektronix.

>
> Hank (ex-Tek 1960-65)

Did you know a Kiwi named George Smith? He would tell the story of how
he just decided he would come to the US and work for Tek, and so he
did.

[John Higdon]

In article <4e9fa9ae$0$1667$742e...@news.sonic.net>,

SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> It disappeared. There was only going to be one IBOC scheme, and HD Radio
> has significant advantages in terms of audio quality.

FMeXtra has NOT disappeared. It was taken off KBAY due to a situation at
KBAY, and had nothing to do with FMeXtra. It is NOT an IBOC scheme; it
is a subcarrier that rides with the analog FM signal from the same
baseband modulator. It does NOT cause adjacent channel interference. It
has better audio quality than the iBiquity scheme without the technical
costs.

> For FMExtra you could have 40 kbit/s of digital (along with analog) or
> 156 kbit/s all-digital. For HD you get much higher rates and hence
> better audio quality.

The maximum any one stream on iBiquity's IBOC system can employ is
96Kbps. Let me make that clear: even in all-digital mode, iBiquity's
system can only provide any given program with 96Kbps. If you don't know
that, you have no clue regarding what you are pushing. Now, given that
the codec used with FMeXtra is significantly superior to that of the
ACC-predecessor dinosaur IBOC uses, your comment is false.

The only "advantage" iBiquity's system enjoys is brute force promotional
money and corporate arm-twisting. If it weren't for the so called "HD
Radio Alliance", IBOC would have been dismissed years ago as a bad joke
from any legitimate technical standpoint.

[SMS]

FMExtra had one major advantage over HD when it comes to IBOC
schemes--cost. No new transmitter and no licensing fees. So smaller
stations could afford it.

Of course without industry support no one was making FMExtra receivers.
Whatever anyone's feelings about the technical aspects of HD, the fact
is that there are a great many receivers available, for home, car, and
portable, as well as a great many vehicle makers that offer HD as
standard or optional equipment.

The big advantage of HD is that there's a lot more bandwidth using
sidebands as opposed to sub-carriers. The audio quality is better and/or
you have more sub-channels, depending on how you divvy up the bandwidth.
There's also a clear path to all-digital.

There are reasons that people oppose HD, some valid, most not valid.

[John Higdon]

In article <4e9fba03$0$1726$742e...@news.sonic.net>,

SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The big advantage of HD is that there's a lot more bandwidth using
> sidebands as opposed to sub-carriers.

Indeed. When you steal bandwidth from your dial-position neighbors, it
is amazing what you can do.

> The audio quality is better and/or
> you have more sub-channels, depending on how you divvy up the bandwidth.
> There's also a clear path to all-digital.

Most broadcasters haven't a clue what to do with ONE channel let alone
two. With "all-digital" iBiquity gets four 96Kbps streams. The "main"
channel would get 96Kbps, and then there would be three other channels
just like it available. To what end? Is the current stellar showing by
HD-2 channels a harbinger of what is to come? If not, why not?

> There are reasons that people oppose HD, some valid, most not valid.

You have yet to show any of my objections to be anything but valid.

I'm not holding my breath, since you don't even seem to be aware of the
limitations of IBOC itself.

[warren reese]

Hello to Phil,

I'm enjoying John Higen's treatise on this thred tremendisly. It is a
history I know nothing about. KFAT was a signal I could never receive
from Santa Rosa when I lived there, but it had a tremendous following.

Here in Eureka I am out of SCA range of all Bay Area stations.

But I am greatly interested in any internet feeds.

Currently I receive KDFC.com both on the internet and via over the
air.

Where can I get other Bay Area stations?

Warren Reese

[Phil Kane]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:56:59 +0000 (UTC),
han...@blackhole.lostwells.net (Hank) wrote:

>>This past weekend we went to the TEK-Museum, a storefront set up just
>>this month by a number of friends who were former Tektronix
>>engineering employees - there are several thousands of them in this
>>area -

>Where is that museum located?

4620A SW Beaverton Hillsdale Hwy, between Shattuck Rd and 45th, just
past the Tattoo Parlor <G> The building is owned by a former Tek
person so they get the unit for $1 per month.

>And I wonder how many of those old scopes came out of Stan Griffiths'
>7-car garage.

Many of them. Stanley Ham (whom I've known for all the 12 years that
I've been up here) was there when we visited, and we spent about an
hour chatting and viewing.

> Tek captured almost all of the US oscillosope market from DuMont.

When I worked for the USAF-SAC (1961-64) there were the gen-u-wine
540s and the Lavoie and Hickok knockoffs. Our techs always tried to
get the Tek ones.

Stan told me that after all the years of making their own CRTs, they
sold the technology to China.

[Dave Barnett]

On 10/20/2011 6:18 PM, warren reese wrote:
> KFAT was a signal I could never receive
> from Santa Rosa when I lived there, but it had a tremendous following.
>

For those who don't know what it was like, or just want some memories -
there's a website playing KFAT airchecks 24-7. Of course, it's:

http://www.kfat.com/

Dave B.