Time to Ban Equestrians from Trails
SMS
<http://www.ridgetrail.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=72>
in Marin County today.
Hikers, bicycles, and horses are all allowed. Four mountain bikers
passed us, all riding responsibly. The new trail is very nice _except_
for all the horse manure everywhere. It's disgusting, and a hassle to
keep stepping around. In some places it covers the whole width of the
trail. We then took the Miwok trail and Redwood Creek trails back to
Muir Beach. They were even worse in terms of horse manure because they
are narrower.
Why can't equestrians be forced to clean up after themselves? They are
so inconsiderate of other trail users. Equestrians should buy land to
create their own trail system separate from self-powered hikers and
bicyclists that don't leave a huge mess behind.
Jef Poskanzer
quantities of shit left behind. Beaches and trails are not toilets!
sms88
> Why can't equestrians be forced to clean up after themselves? They are
> so inconsiderate of other trail users. Equestrians should buy land to
> create their own trail system separate from self-powered hikers and
> bicyclists that don't leave a huge mess behind.
We make dog owners clean up after themselves, and humans are trained in
proper etiquette for wilderness hygiene, but somehow we forgot about
other domesticated animals.
There are several horse diaper products on the market. It's time that
the state, county, and federal government require their use on public lands.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:j2rf0f$net$1...@dont-email.me...
A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that horse poop is nowhere
near as foul, to the environment or senses, as that of dogs. Has to do
with the diet. Nevertheless, it remains a severe inconvenience to other
trail users, and is, at the very least, rude and uncaring. Equestrians
should be required to remove the excrement from the trail, period.
Simply shoveling it to the side is probably adequate in a non-urban
area.
Of course, unless the equestrian has eyes in the back of his or her
head, they don't know the horse has pooped, so the diaper product
becomes relevant.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Karl Pingle
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
The Open Space District requires cleaning up after dogs but not horses.
Dog poop contains things that are harmful to wild animals (and
potentially people) while horse poop does not. I have had equestrians
inquire as to whether other users prefer they have the horses dump in
one place or spread it out. It appears they do know what is happening
behind them.
Karl
jcdill
> A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that
bicycles (as a group) do a LOT more damage to the trails, especially
when riding on the trails during the rainy season. Unless you want to
start seeing signs banning bikes from all the single track in many parks
for the entire rainy season (which happens quite a bit for horse riders)
you might want to get off that "high horse" about damage to the trails.
It can come back to bite the biking community very hard.
The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.
The ruts that bicycles leave on the trail becomes a morass, or become
erosion channels that can cause tremendous damage in a single day's rain.
jc
Jonz
> On 21/08/11 5:57 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that
>
> bicycles (as a group) do a LOT more damage to the trails, especially
> when riding on the trails during the rainy season. Unless you want to
> start seeing signs banning bikes from all the single track in many parks
> for the entire rainy season (which happens quite a bit for horse riders)
> you might want to get off that "high horse" about damage to the trails.
> It can come back to bite the biking community very hard.
>
Ooooh... Sounds like a threat to me.
> The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.
Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
riders should be forced to clean up.
Sounds like this touched a nerve.
Jonz
jcdill
> On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:
>> On 21/08/11 5:57 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>>> A reasonably-truthful argument can be made that
>>
>> bicycles (as a group) do a LOT more damage to the trails, especially
>> when riding on the trails during the rainy season. Unless you want to
>> start seeing signs banning bikes from all the single track in many parks
>> for the entire rainy season (which happens quite a bit for horse riders)
>> you might want to get off that "high horse" about damage to the trails.
>> It can come back to bite the biking community very hard.
>
> Ooooh... Sounds like a threat to me.
It's not a threat, it's a reality.
There was a big thread following an equestrian event at Fort Ord where
bikers complained about "all the damage to the trails". In response, it
was pointed out that:
1) The event had both "good weather" and "wet weather" routes, and they
used the wet weather routes.
2) We had unusual late season rain.
3) Sea Otter (held in April, at a time when rain is much more likely)
has run several times when the trails were *really* wet, and with
thousands of bikes riding on the trails (practice, racing, gran fondo,
for fun, etc.) they really tore the trails up pretty bad in those years.
So, if the bikers want to run the risk of seeing the mountain bike races
at Sea Otter canceled, just go ahead and complain about the horse riders
"tearing up the trails" at a sanctioned event. Because what's good for
the goose is good for the gander.
>> The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.
>
> Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
> riders should be forced to clean up.
That's one person's opinion. People who live in glass houses shouldn't
throw stones. When you gripe about horses, you just open up the
conversation to gripes back about bikes, and you KNOW that there are bad
actors in the bike group and to have others pointing out the bad
behaviors of those bad actors doesn't endear people to bikes.
jc
Jonz
This sounds like:
Mommy, they do it too, so it must be OK.
Jonz
jcdill
No, that's not what it is at all.
It's a form of the Streisand effect. It's not a good idea to try to get
more people looking at how people act uncaringly towards other park
users when your own group is the group that most often generates
complaints about uncaring behavior towards other park users. It's about
the risk of one group with a public relations problem that also has a
fair percent of members who flout rules (poaching etc.) griping about
the behavior of other groups. You run the risk of having the magnifying
glass turned right back on your own group's problems.
If you want people to focus back on bad riding behaviors, go right ahead
and complain about horses. You will get all the attention you want (and
more that you don't want) about trail issues regarding bikes. It
definitely will NOT end up with any expanded trail access for bikes.
jc
jcdill
>> On 22/08/11 7:09 PM, Jonz wrote:
>>> On 8/22/2011 3:43 PM, jcdill wrote:
>
>>
>>>> The manure horses leave on the trail becomes fertilizer for the park.
>>>
>>> Eventually. But before it does, it is a disgusting, ugly mess that horse
>>> riders should be forced to clean up.
BTW, this is a lot like people who move next to an airport then complain
about the noise. While we (society) can't keep people from moving next
to an airport, we (society) CAN keep bikes from legally using trails by
refusing to expand existing and new trails to use by bikes, or by
banning bikes from trails they have already been given permission to
ride. So if your goal is to ensure that more and more people show up to
argue against allowing bikes on the trails, just go ahead and complain
about the horses. The horses were there first, and they will mobilize
to prevent bikes from being allowed on trails if the bikes aren't going
to respect the way things have been working well for trail users (hikers
and equestrians) when they are granted biking access to trails.
jc
Jonz
Spin it however you want. However, like I said before, b-b-but they do
it too.
You would be in a much better position if your group set an example
rather than point fingers.
Jonz
Jonz
Heh... Sounds like... I was here first so I get to make up the rules.
Sorry, It doesn't work that way.
Jonz
SMS
> Mommy, they do it too, so it must be OK.
One of the reviews I read on the Dias Ridge trail mentioned that the
mountain bikers helped to pack down mud which made it easier walking for
hikers. That's the first time I'd ever seen such a claim, but it does
have some merit.
jcdill
> Heh... Sounds like... I was here first so I get to make up the rules.
No. It's more like "You wouldn't HAVE these parks if the hikers and
equestrians hadn't fought to establish them many years ago, so please
respect their efforts as you work to become part of the solution, rather
than the problem."
> Sorry, It doesn't work that way.
I don't think you have the foggiest idea how it works.
Like too many spokeheads, you hide behind an anonymous handle and bogus
email address, and make threats about anyone who doesn't see things your
way 100% of the time. You are part of the problem, and those who know
better how to get along with other trail users, and how to share trails
in a civilized fashion (which means compromise, recognizing and
understanding the needs of other trail users) despair that they will
never make any progress given how much they have to fight with the guys
who are supposed to be on their own team, before they can present a
civilized and unified front to help craft rules that benefit everyone.
Every time they make some progress, some hothead starts flaming and
generates increased opposition to bikes on trails, and they are pushed
back to square one.
So, go ahead, keep on agitating and help ensure that the opposition
stays very active to fight any attempt to expand trail access to bikes
given that bikers (like you) obviously don't know how to get along, and
don't care to get along, and don't care about anyone or anything except
their own selfish selves. You will continue to be part of the problem
and be a perfect poster-boy for everyone who wants to restrict bike
access on trails.
jc
"\"T°m Sherm@n >
Has a bicycle ever panicked and killed an innocent bystander?
Do bicycles ever aim kicks with deadly force at head height as part of play?
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.
"\"T°m Sherm@n >
than bicycles.
"\"T°m Sherm@n >
We do have a poster-boy for the anti-mountain bike crowd: Michael J.
Vandeman, PhD. ;)
jcdill
> Has a bicycle ever panicked and killed an innocent bystander?
It doesn't take panicking - bicycle riders riding irresponsibly can and
do kill innocent bystanders (pedestrians).
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/baycitynews/a/2011/08/11/pedestrian11.DTL>
A day after that article ran, I was driving on Embarcadero in SF, and a
bicycle passed me on the right (in the bike lane) and then proceeded to
blow thru a red light without so much as slowing down. Later that same
day, while I was stopped on Market at Spear, a bike ran thru the red
light, almost mowing down a pedestrian (who had the light) that was
crossing Market.
jc
Don Freeman
That brings up a rather pressing question... what wine do you serve with it?
--
__
(oO) www.cosmoslair.com
/||\ Cthulhu Saves!!! (In case he needs a midnight snack)
Opus
If I remember correctly you should serve a Burgundy with horse.
Otherwise a full-flavored red of any variety will suffice.
Jonz
Ooooh... the outrage, the indignation, all because it was suggested that
horse riders clean their horse poop from the trails so that other people
don't have to see it, smell it, and wade thru it.
I appears that horse riders are even more arrogant and self centered
than bicyclists. I really didn't think that was possible but... live and
learn.
Jonz
jcdill
> Ooooh... the outrage, the indignation,
Nope. I'm pointing out that if you go down this path, it will backfire
on YOU and cause harm to the biking community (of which I'm part, along
with the equestrian community).
> I appears that horse riders are even more arrogant and self centered
> than bicyclists.
You wouldn't know, because you can't see people for who they are. You
certainly can't see yourself for what YOU are, which is a problem in the
bike/equestrian relations as we work to establish parks and rules that
work for everyone. Each time someone comes along with the types of
comments and suggestions you make, it sets things back for bikers. Is
that really what you want?
jc
Don Freeman
>
> I appears that I am even more arrogant and self centered
> than bicyclists. I really didn't think that was possible but... live and
> learn.
>
> Jonz
>
IFYPFY