Anjanadalli Chandraloka"

[Balachandra Rao]

Friends,
This refers to the Kannada article of someone "seeing" the goings
on in the Moon before actually
man set his foot on the surface of the moon! The article is simply
rubbish. It is a cock-and-bull story that could be read by children
with relish in an older issue of the Chandamama or more appropriately
as Appendix to the book "Autobiography of A Yogi "!
One wonders if the editors of such newspapers are after the
so-called TRP for which the private TV channels are vying with
another
with their "Brihat Brahmanda", "Punarjanma", "Heegu unte", "Reality
Shows", Astrology, etc.
It is clear that the concerned editors themselves either believe
in such superstitions or nonchalantly flout the commitment to our
Indian Constitution which enjoins the Fundamental Duties on its
citizens: one such being 'the development of the scientific temper!
Balachandra Rao

[Naveen Nanjundappa]

I agreed with you sir.

~Naveen

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[praveen kulkarni]

@Balachandra Sir

a fitting reply to an unscientific and pandering piece of irresponsible journalism.

[Amar Sharma]

Whatever be it, I am amazed by one snippet I heard from our mythology (if that is correctly quoted). The first person to step foot on the Moon was Bahubali in the ancient times. In modern times it was Armstrong. (Bahu = arm, Bal=strong)!!! And I wouldnt call it sheer coincidence.

--- On Wed, 4/11/12, Balachandra Rao <balacha...@gmail.com> wrote:

This refers to the Kannada article of someone "seeing" the goings on in the Moon before actually man set his foot on the surface of the moon! The article is simply rubbish. It is a cock-and-bull story that could be read by children with relish in an older issue of the Chandamama or more appropriately as Appendix to the book "Autobiography of A Yogi "!

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

Hi All,

It is very easy to discard such news/reports as pseudo-science. But I disagree with this kind of a treatment. I feel this blind disagreeing has become a kind of fashion these days.

There are instances in our very own scriptures which talk of Vimana's & other things which modern scientists simply try to discredit.

Ancients deserve more credit than what has been given to them at present by so called "Scientists". I am not saying ancients were 100% right, we can't even claim that for our very own present civilization that our science is 100% right. Look at these as models developed in the ancient era to explain some phenomena natural or artificial.

Since philosophy was tough to understand, sages used mythology to explain some concepts, similarly since some scientific theories are too difficult to make it understand for the public, present day scientists n film makers make use of science fiction to convey scientific ideas. 

Most of you may not agree with my view, & may laugh on me for replying to this email in support of the article "Anjanadalli Chandraloka".

Many people laughed at archaeologists who went on searching for the ancient cities based on so called Scriptures (Mahabharata's Dwaraka, Ramayana's Ram Sethu, Illiad's troy, etc) but when most of the archaeologists found proof of human remains or evidence of civilization, then they started giving some attention. Even now mainstream archaeology try to discard archaeological evidences which doesnt fit the standard model. ( Check Forbidden Archaeology By Micheal Cremo).

We don't have to look further, even scientists themselves were in opposition to some of the ideas during their time. Einstein didn't support the Quantum Theory bcoz it looked more of philosophy than science, Lord Kelvin declared at the end of 19th century that, " There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement. " Arthur Eddington strongly opposed the scientific theory of Stellar Evolution proposed by S. Chandrashekar. & Even now some "scientists" blindly discard which doesn't fit their view. Astrology, Black/White Magic, Alchemy etc are some of them.

And many of you might not be aware that Isaac Newton, whom scientists consider as a modern thinker pursuer of science, was a firm believer in God, obsessed with Religion & he was an Alchemist, he did many al-chemical experiments, involved in many things which present day science can blindly term as pseudoscience. & Recent revelations confirm that his works in Alchemy n other such experiments helped in forming his theory of gravitation, laws of optics etc.

What I would like to say is, Ancients were not fools, they might have done something, may be somethings are scientific enough just that the present science has not reached that level to understand it (Consider the case of controlling body temperature by means of yoga n meditation, many studies have been conducted on Buddhist monks, before west accepted yoga, even that was under attack as a pseudo-science).

And to give one more example,imagine if I carry my iPad/iPhone/or some smart gadget, to some tribes in Amazon, some of them who are not in contact with civilization, when they see us, using iPad to interact with other people remotely, taking pictures, playing songs,games etc they almost think iPad as a Magical device & we might look like some kind of magicians/gods who speak with ghosts or with some others on some black shiny hand held device. Magic for them is technology for us.

I haven't written this email in structured way, but just wanted to draw an attention of the people, that before blindly discarding give it a thought, think why did ancient's came up with such thoughts.

I would like to end this email with this quote " You Can't see God if seen as stone. Everything is wrong if seen from defective eyes.Enlightened mind sees the reality". 

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

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--
Kiran Kumar Tikare
http://xplorations.blogspot.com
http://protocolsofmatrix.blogspot.com

[praveen kulkarni]

@Kiran

You are right about ancients not being fools. They had to work with all the accumulated knowledge of their time. They were the prisoners of their time. I am sure that if transported to the present day, they'd have had brilliant insights to further scientific understanding. But that's the point.

Knowledge increases as we find more and more about the working of the world around us. We lose some misconceptions and gain more understanding and ask deeper (and simpler, fundamental) questions. 

You discredit scientific process of understanding by hand-waving inventions like IPAD whereas they have a long history of ingenuity and engineering behind them. While you talk about the marvels of physics and archaeology, you forgot the most cutting edge scientific area today. Genetics and Biology. We know that a person is incapable of flying. We know that humans can't uproot 10 feet trees. Our genome tells us our 'real' ancestry. We know that we are only 10% human but 90% bacteria. And then there is the fascinating field of Neuroscience and psychology.

You talk about big things. Let's talk about simple optical illusions. This one, for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbKw0_v2clo

and this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtsfidRq2tw

Most people find them fancy for a minute or two and then they lose interest. But these illusions tell us the most important thing about our brains and Richard Feynman knew it long back:

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.

so, our attitude should not to go quote-mining scriptures for some mysterious truth.Coz there isn't any. I'm sorry to burst your bubble. I understand it's hard to digest the fact that Greeks came up with Scientific Method in Ionia and India did not. But that shouldn't stop us from doing the right thing. Let's go out , do experiments, test our theories and try to disprove ourself before someone else does it for us. That's science. Rest is non-science.

Life is full of mysteries, yeah,

But there are answers out there.

And they won't be found by people sitting around looking serious and saying:

Isn't life mysterious?

Bonus internet points for guessing the source of this poem. 

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Kiran Kumar Tikare 

--
Signature /-

CAVEAT   LECTOR

 

[Suresh Mohan]

Though unrelated to this topic Balaji sent me a nice article about bhagavatam and time dilation by prof Narlikar which appeared in Deccan chronicle 

Black holes & bureaucracy

  - February 15, 2012


  -

The Bhagavata Purana carries the story of King Kukudmi who had a beautiful
daughter called Revati. Several young men aspired for her hand and the
anxious father wanted to make the right choice. At last he decided to
consult a wiser brain, no less than Lord Brahma. He took his daughter to
see Brahma. As Brahma was busy with some work, he asked the king to wait
for a while. And sure enough, after waiting for a few moments, Kukudmi was
admitted to the presence of Brahma. When Brahma heard of Kukudmi’s problem
he laughed and said: “While you waited a few moments here, thousands of
years have passed on Earth. The young men you were talking about are no
more. But I will tell you of a suitable match from those who will be there
by the time you get back.” And Brahma recommended the name of Balram,
brother of Krishna.

In modern times this story has similarities with the phenomenon of time
dilatation induced by strong gravity. When Einstein proposed his general
theory of relativity, he had a built-in concept of how space and time
measurements get modified in regions of strong gravity. Before Einstein
came on the scene, physicists were accustomed to rather naïve concepts of
space and time — the Euclidean geometry that we all learn at school and
controlled spatial measurements where time seemed to flow uniformly at the
same rate for everybody. This simplistic notion was changed once the theory
of relativity took over.

Take, for example, the familiar theorem of geometry that the three angles
of a triangle add up to two right angles. Consider the thought experiment
wherein we station three space observers around the Sun so that light
signals exchanged by them follow tracks grazing the solar limb. This vast
triangle in space will have its three angles adding up to a sum slightly
higher than two right angles. This happens because the geometry in the
vicinity of the Sun is not that of Euclid: it follows slightly different
rules because of the Sun’s powerful gravity.

In the somewhat protective environment of the Earth, gravity is not very
large and so its effect on space-time measurements is negligible. But in
astronomy we encounter several scenarios that lead to massive objects that
have such strong force of gravity that under its continuous attraction
these objects have a powerful urge to contract. To gauge the power of this
urge imagine that a star with the mass and radius of the Sun would shrink
to a point in 29 minutes! In practice this disaster does not overtake the
Sun, because it has thermal forces within to oppose the collapsing tendency
of gravity. Indeed most stars that the astronomer observes maintain their
equilibrium under the opposing forces of gravity and thermal pressures.

However, a star cannot rely on its thermal energy for ever. Its source, the
nuclear fusion reactions in its central core, gives way when the nuclear
fuel runs out and gravity finds itself unopposed in its control of the
star. In such a case the star may go on shrinking and shrinking. It is now
well established that a star with more than three solar masses will have
this future in store.

Let us now visualise two observers, A and B, who are in communication via
light signals. A is located far away from the shrinking star whereas B is
sitting right on it. The geometry around A is like that of Euclid because
there is no significant gravitational presence there. The observer B,
however, is in a place where the star’s gravity is strong and it is going
to get stronger and stronger as the star shrinks. Suppose A arranges with B
that B shall send him a light signal every hour on the hour. In reality
what happens?

Initially A will notice a slight delay in receiving B’s signals. The delay
occurs because the time measurement around B is different from that around
A, thanks to the strong gravity near B. And, as time proceeds, this delay
will get longer and longer. A will wonder why B is so slow in sending
signals. On the other hand, B is keeping strictly to the schedule and
sending signals hourly by his watch. Eventually a stage would come when A
may have to wait several years to get the next signal from B. We have a
situation exactly like that involving Kukudmi and Brahma. And, ultimately,
the shrinking star crosses a critical barrier from inside which no signal
can ever come out. This state is popularly known as the black hole. No
matter how long A waits he is not going to get another signal from B.

Black holes with this information barrier came as a solution of Einstein’s
equations of relativity. Karl Schwarzschild was the first to do this work,
although black holes were thought to be too esoteric to be real. As the
expert on stars, Arthur Stanley Eddington, observed, nature should not
permit such strange situations to develop. But he had underestimated what
nature would permit. Today astronomers are discovering black holes of
various masses, ranging from a few times the solar mass, to billions of
solar masses.

While Kukudmi was in Dwapar Yuga, we have a modern example of this
phenomenon right here on Earth. Let A represent an applicant and B stand
for a bureaucrat. A has applied to B’s office for some urgent information.
He waits and waits for a reply from B, cursing his dilatoriness while
sending him reminders. B, however, runs his schedule by a different time
and would be surprised if he is accused of being slow. A has to appreciate
the fact that he has run into one of the many bureaucratic black holes that
exist in our country.

The writer, a renowned astrophysicist, is professor emeritus at
Inter-University Centre for Astronomy
and Astrophysics, Pune University Campus


Cheers

-

[Chandrashekar]

It is a cock-and-bull story that could be read by children
with relish in an older issue of the Chandamama or more appropriately
as Appendix to the book "Autobiography of A Yogi "!  

Agreed that this is a cock-and-bull story . More of a fictional story . But what i disagree is the comment about "Autobiography of a Yogi" . Stories appearing in that book cant be rejected outright . There are accounts of researches  conducted when yogis meditate , and effects of meditation have been studied . Ex: "Healing emotions" . Yoga must be given its due credit . We haven't understood it yet from a scientific perspective  is different from saying its rubbish. 

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Regards , 

Chandrashekar 
  

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@Praveen

I am not discrediting the inventions like iPad, what I am saying is, those tribals haven't come across such a technology in their pursuit n they will think it as a magical device because of that reason. Since we have seen the development upto iPad from landline to mobile to smartphone to tablets, for us it looks scientific & technological marvel but for those tribals its a magical device. Similarly we haven't seen how the ancients arrived at something called anjana. Discrediting anjana is easy as some form of magic by present generation because it hasn't seen the developments leading at anjana.

Western scientific process need not be similar to eastern scientific process. If you try to understand something of eastern origin with your background of western scientific process it looks illogical/unscientific.If you look at things with defective eyes everything looks defective. Things should be understood as they are not as you want them to be.

I didn't speak of genetics/biology because I don't have much insight into those areas. That is what I am trying to say. Just by having knowledge about western way of science you are trying to look at eastern science (of which you have very less to no knowledge) & trying to discredit it which is wrong.

Learn the eastern language, learn the way of eastern scientific process then with your understanding of both western & eastern practices you will know whether Anjana is real or just a fake thing. And that is why newton was into Alchemy, you can't deduce something with partial understanding of something.

Our genome might tell about our ancestory, we may be incapable of flying without help of machine. When scriptures say flying machines or people used to fly doesn't mean they didn't use machines at all. Their description is might not be whole. Think of it this way, since u have seen computers from 10 years, everytime you write about computer, you will not write in bracket that computer is a device to calculate machine n it is built with this parts n these parts works like this etc etc.., you just write it as computer. Details will be lost in the long run.

Just an imagination here. Consider our generation, in future, everything has turned into digital, to save trees n other resources. There is no more use of paper, no books printed, all books in the libraries have been digitized and destroyed so that they can make use of library space for something else. All our writings, papers, notes everything digitized.

Then a world war happens & our civilization ends. Imagine for 10,000 years people who survived the war (imagine most of the survivors are from something like music band, who are not experts in technology or scientific progress or tool making), started living in forests for hundreds of years, growing beards, rough skin due to rough weather conditions they start almost looking like neanderthals, without technological knowledge or tools they keep talking of the age they lived in they tell the stories to their kids how they used to fly in planes, had personal vehicles since they can't show how a vehicle looked like they take help of horses (horse power :) ) , they tell their kids of powerful weapons which can destroy cities. Then fast forward in 10,000 years most of the actual details have been lost because the civilization that destroyed itself had everything digitized there are no written artifacts or written proofs left, details of technology took form of imagination.

In 10,000 years people have explored many ways of doing things (completely different ways than our present generation), there is progress in science, philosophy, technology then that so called "modern scientific generation" thinks of their ancestors as pseudo-scientists, who talked about something brainless called "computer" which used to compute hundreds of things, which can be hand held,used to listen to songs. They our scientific progress also as unscientific. There was something called mouse which is connected to computer used to point things on screen etc. That new generation might think mouse as some kind of superstition.

That is why, you can't simply discredit whatever our ancestors did as pseudo science or some brainless illogical superstition. Study their methods, in their own ways, then arrive at some conclusions.

Hope this makes it clear. Our attitude should also be inclusive of quote mining scriptures you never know where the mystery of the universe is hidden. If you are pursing the truth you need to pursue in all its ways, not just in your way of thinking/or of philosophy.

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar 

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[Sreeshankar]

Dear Suresh Mohan,

 

Very very interesting!

 

Thanks,

Sreeshankar

--

[sathya kumar prasanna]

A very good read, all of you. 

@Kiran, you should post the link to the Foreign scientists finding Dwarka, off the coast of Gujrat.

Sathya

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

Hi,

Here is a short Video Clip of History Channel's Video Documentory on Dwaraka : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=362977623742611 (Full Video here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M&feature=relmfu )

& Those of who are suspicious of validity of History Channel's work, a Report by S.R Rao, Archeologist, Archeological Survey of India,  from National Institute of Oceanography, India : 

http://drs.nio.org/drs/handle/2264/2533 (direct PDF Link : http://drs.nio.org/drs/bitstream/2264/2533/2/J_Mar_Archaeol_1_59.pdf )

@Suresh Mohan

Nice article Doc, thanks for sharing it.

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

[praveen kulkarni]

@Kiran

I am discrediting Indian methods because they are not robust. Indian methods rely on conformity instead of criticism. It is our cultural problem. You can see that in schools. Don't question the teacher, even if she/he is incompetent. She/he knows everything. (Guru-devo-bhava) Even legitimate criticism is frowned upon.  Personalities and positions and designations are given more importance than originality and creativity and birth and knowledge.

And I am honest enough to appreciate a good idea when I see one. Recently, Doctor Suresh shared a piece on Time Dilation in some ancient text. Now that's awesome. The fact that "some" of our ancients had such deep thoughts is praise-worthy. But they did not have the means to test this idea. So, it remained an un-testable hypothesis ( a nice story) full of supernatural references. It wasn't until scientists  sent airplanes with synchronised atomic clocks that we established Time Dilation as a theory. Science does not mean stating a hypothesis and congratulating ourselves in hindsight. That's like giving JK.Rowling Nobel Prize for coming up with the idea of invisibility cloak in the first place. There is a reason it's called fiction.

And I'll tell you what. You can pick and choose stuff like Dwarka (Atlantis) and Pushpaka Vimana whereas this forms less than 0.002% (just a random low number) of the stuff in scriptures. Most of the inscrutable and vague scriptures don't do squat in predicting anything. They can only do retro-diction like Nostradamus. More than 80% of these glorified books praise Fire God, Wind God, Rain God, Aether God and of-course SkyGods. If you really think our ancient scriptures had figured out more than what Science has helped us uncover, then you will face awkward questions like:

Why didn't Eastern Science cure Polio? Surely, if sages could fly to meet Mr.Vishnu in Vaikuntha, curing polio must be jujubi (frivolous). Just think about it. Science has alleviated human suffering so much and it has given us so much free time. Otherwise, our Eastern Science would have left us to spend 3 hours everyday to fetch water from nearby lake.

source

Hostility towards scientific criticism

    Criticism is a necessary and healthy part of the scientific process.  Anyone who has ever submitted a paper for publication in a scientific journal has been the target of such criticism.  It is the primary mechanism by which standards are maintained within science, and also an important source of the self-corrective nature of science.  Scientists, therefore, learn to be thick-skinned.  They also learn how to focus their criticism on the logic and evidence of an issue, rather than making personal attacks against those proposing a view different from their own.

    Pseudoscientists, by contrast, display clear hostility towards any such criticism.  They view such criticism as personal attacks, even when they are not.  They tend to characterize criticism from mainstream scientists as supporting the status quo, hostility toward new or innovative ideas, or even a full-fledged conspiracy to suppress their ideas.  They will often dismiss the content of criticism by denouncing the philosophical basis of science altogether, or deny the ability of science to pierce their arcane knowledge.

    In short, they view the criticism of their ideas as a problem with science and scientists, not with the evidentiary or logical basis of their claims. 

~~~

Science does not care who comes up with the idea and tests it. If the experiment proves it, great. If not, sorry. It's upto the person to prove it. Talking about balance in such cases is a cop-out. Respect is not given like a throw-away appeasement. Respect is earned. Linus Pauling earned respect because he followed robust methods to come up with a novel idea in Chemistry. Then he proposed that Vitamin C cures all diseases. This claim was found to be bullsh#t and it was rejected. No one gave a hoot that Pauling is a Nobel Laureate. Now that's the best thing about Science. How? 

Take Charles Darwin, for example. He collected evidence for 20 years and tried to disprove his theories until they were seamless and robust. That's the kind of meticulousness expected in science. 

You talk about cultural relativism in finding truth. Tell me this. If Eastern people told you that fire is harmless because Sita walked through it unhurt, would you take their word for it. I suppose you'll test yourself by approaching the fire and fearing the heat. Even kids learn by experimenting. How can you ask scientists to respect something that time and again has been proved non-sense?

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Kiran Kumar Tikare 

[Sanath Kumar]

Hii,

       Sorry for having  interrupted in between the discussion , the video was very informative  Kiran kumar tikare  and the way you wrote the prediction about the case was really good , also the interpretation by praveen kulkarani was awesome , now we all know about and hear  all these things very often but majority of think in just science or else religious perspective in a narrow minded way ,but there are lots of people who are trying to connect the actual ancient indian intelligence to the current day's without adding extra from their imagination and that is what the people in video   ( : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M&feature=relmfu ) are trying to do , now i currently agree majority of  views of praveen kulkarni  , just for an example as shown in the video i noticed that all the buildings were made of stone ,in this case i would like to tell that i agree that they were comparatively advanced than other civilisations at that time but as said by praveen kulkarni  { Knowledge increases as we find more and more about the working of the world around us. We lose some misconceptions and gain more understanding and ask deeper (and simpler, fundamental) questions. } , they may had constructed the buildings which WERE advanced but i really dont think that the walls and pillars were digitalised (not possible), also they were not even polished properly , it is a general psychology  of people to praise their religion, ancestors , and country and in that notion we should knowingly not FOOL others by telling extra ( masala ) ,as stated by

 Carl Sagan-

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

people who realise this mantra wont dare taking false credits by telling that it is very advanced and (you wont understand ,you should not question elders) etc,

coming to the loss of information i agree that info may be lost but if they were in a higher level of technology we would have recovered samples even if (10k ) years old as we all know plastic which was invented (scientifically) in  1855 , and a plastic cube will take more that 30K years to degrade ,then what happened to the ingenious plastic which considering the advanced tech which existed at that time go?? ,was it somehow disintegrated not obeying the decay laws , just because some things were achieved by our ancestors like the knowledge of vedas and ayurveda  doesn't mean that they were more advanced than us , i BET if anyone could show me the moon in the anjana then i would quit this science (astronomy) which is finally de-credited by STRONG BELIEVERS of these myths  and start practising that technique for rest of my life without further questioning , as generations are passing by the human brain is becoming more and more advanced (scientifically proved) and hence the questioning ability has increased doesn't mean that people who question are unaware of situations and are DUMB .

finally i would like to ask kiran kumar tikare which will solve everything regarding this topic, ( HAVE YOU SEEN THE MOON AND PEOPLE LIVING ON MOON IN ANJANA  ,IF YES CAN YOU SHOW ME?) just to PROVE that this is not just a created story of cock and bull ,i asked this as you have openly agreed to believe in this phenomenon ,i can show you moon with just the science (can it be really done by the MYTH?) 

Regards ,

Sanath Kumar Sastry

 

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

Let me make it clear, I support Modern (Western) Science & Ancient (Eastern) Science. I am working on finding the parallels between modern science & ancient philosophy. And I hold the view that both are incomplete, & we cant discredit either of them without working in both the areas. Only with complete understanding of Eastern ways & Western ways we will know which is correct n which is false.

@Praveen

You missed my point, again you are trying to look at Eastern way of doing things through Western ways, obviously for you Eastern Process looks like unscientific & hence it doesnt make sense for you. To understand Psychology you have to study from Psychology point of View not from Poetic/Artistic Point of View. If you study Psychology from Poetic Point of view, you will have understanding from Poetic point of view but not Psychology point of view. Similarly "Understand Eastern Science from Eastern Point of View, not from Western point of view". Become a monk study their ways & then you will know What is going behind with their analysis. 

And as far as I know, those who have gone exploring the Eastern process have understood how Eastern process works & have greatly appreciated it & have stopped terming it as Unscientific. How do you know that Indian way was not robust enough? Have you tried their ways?? or simply guessing with your Western thought process?? 

You ask why Eastern science didn't cure Polio, kind of questions but neglect the works of Surgical procedure & Cosmetic surgery kind of works by Susruta & Charaka. I dont know what point you want to make. Do you think Ancients didnt find cure to Polio means all of their work is of fictional nature? Let me ask you then, Why there is no cure for AIDS, Cancer & many other such diseases?? Does that mean the present western science is bogus & of fictional nature??

No Civilization has come up with 100% answers to all of the questions it has faced. It would be better to understand that, whatever issues they faced they have attempted to explain/form theories with their understanding.

You say "Science has alleviated human suffering so much and it has given us so much free time. ", is it So?? How many have been killed by  Atomic Bombs, Nuclear Radiation, modern weapons? Even the buildings that we live in emit radiation. 

" Don't question the teacher, even if she/he is incompetent. She/he knows everything. " kind of mentality was not there during vedic periods, read Upanishada's in that for every question that a student has asked Master has tried to answer them, its just recent people who have developed such a mentality mainly because they lack the knowledge required to explain things.

Only western science is right, eastern science is bogus, is a faulty mentality. In their capacity Eastern Sages have tried to provide answers to the questions that they encountered. 

And regarding that imagination of yours that, if eastern people told that fire is harmless, then yes I would have considered that,because they didn't explain how it is harmless, may be they were referring to some kind of protection mechanism through which fire could have become a harmless thing. It's like Nuclear energy can be consumed in harmless way.  And as an example I told you about computer, you won't write in detail about computer whenever you refer to computer, that doesnt mean computer cant play a song.

@Sanath Kumar

I have not accepted, what they saw through Anajana as true. What I am saying is, Anjana may be a form of a tool invented by ancients. Without doing research in that area & without following eastern way of producing that "Anajana" you cant simply term it as pseudo-science. 

And I didnt mean of digitization of walls or other such things,I meant it differently, in that example I wrote of  world war (the next possible world war will be with Nuclear Weapons, if you look at Hiroshima/Nagasaki - No building withstood the Nuclear attack) hence the destruction of such big buildings will have no archaeological proofs left out. And also our buildings constructed with cement & other stuff have their life span of 100 years or so. So there is very real possibility of our civilization never ever getting discovered in the thousands of years ahead in future if we ever destroy ourselves. With digitization almost we don't exist for the future generations. If that generation doesnt have computer in the present form. You can see it now itself, pagers are no more, & new generation which has not see pager will never ever come to know that there was something called pager without any remaining models.

And don't be under a false impression. I am not praising my culture just because I belong to that culture. If you read my email you will understand that, I am telling to ask question, do some research on Eastern ways than simply discarding & terming everything eastern origin as psuedo-science without doing any kind of research. Neither am I telling that only our ancestors were advanced. I am telling Our ancestors too contributed & people must do research to find out about it.

And you say "i BET if anyone could show me the moon in the anjana then i would quit this science ", showing you through Anajana might not be so easy, similarly showing you the internal structure of atoms by smashing them is also not so easy. Both requires expert knowledge, their own level of expertise & tools.

A Nuclear scientist has to study the Nuclear Physics, then build machines to show/prove. Similarly any one who wants to perform that Anajana thing, has to perform sadhana, then perform required rituals to be eligible to make the Anajana.

Any one of you know about how to become & processes involved in being a mystic/yogi  in Eastern Philosophy ?? Or just heard the name mystics/yogis? & if you just know the name & nothing beyond that, then you are not eligible to discredit their work.

And I have not watched through Anjana, but Since last 15 years I have explored both Eastern / Western thought process. I have done some "experiments" with Black magic & found them out to be true. To perform any kind of "experiment" in black magic, one has to follow some rules & perform sadhana. Now I cant perform that sadhana because I have become ineligible now. And in my exploration I have found out that, our scriptures have been manipulated during invasions & buddhist periods to protect the true knowledge falling in wrong hands. I can write about it but its going to be a very long email.

So what I would suggest is go through the process that requires to be followed to become a mystic/black magician or something similar. Only after studying eastern way from eastern methods you will know the true nature & what scriptures were refering to. Without looking through eastern ways you will never ever going to understand the true nature of it, until that it looks unscientific to you. 

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran

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[Harshad RJ]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 11:08 PM, Kiran Kumar Tikare <kiranthec...@gmail.com> wrote:

" Don't question the teacher, even if she/he is incompetent. She/he knows everything. " kind of mentality was not there during vedic periods, read Upanishada's in that for every question that a student has asked Master has tried to answer them, its just recent people who have developed such a mentality mainly because they lack the knowledge required to explain things.

Dr Amartya Sen has written an entire book on this topic, "the Argumentative Indian", in which he details how arguments & criticism were encouraged in the early Indian culture. Nothing was taken for granted back then, not even the physical universe, which was considered to be just a perception of our senses.

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http://lavadip.com

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

Hi 

@Harshad,

yes agree with that. And Without arguments & criticisms ( Eastern way) & Without Theory & Experiment (Western way) terming something as false is wrong. Let there be study on eastern ways from eastern perspective.

At present also, there is a conflict between Quantum Theory & Relativity. From relativistic point of view universe looks differently, Relativity prescribes a spacetime continuum. From Quantum theory point of view universe looks differently,Quantum Theory prescribes a discrete world.Relativity is deterministic, Quantum Theory is, randomly probabilistic. Both theories have been proved correct in their own ways, but they are not compatible. If both are correct representations of nature, how can they be so different and even contradictory?  

The very foundation of Quantum Mechanics that, the observer  causes wave function collapse, is philosophical than science in modern sense. Even that looks mystical, why would making measurement by observer at the quantum level is affecting the outcome of the experiment?? And then there is quantum entanglement, action at a distance, how this is happening? why it looks like it is defying the light speed?? 

Similar way, Eastern Way & Western way both are contradictory to each other, only by studying both then we can make out something out of it.

Thanks & Regards,

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[praveen kulkarni]

@Admins

let me know if this discussion is thread-jacking Astronomy topics (Duh! ) and I'll ensure this will be my last response on this thread.

@Kiran

Similar way, Eastern Way & Western way both are contradictory to each other, only by studying both then we can make out something out of it.

Okay. Let me ask something seriously. If, say, you study a claim by Eastern Way (Black Magic for example) and it is indubitably found to be rubbish, will you stop pursuing it? Lemme guess, "No" will be your answer I presume. 

Coz you have already decided it must be true otherwise why-O-why our ancients would have written it in the books? This way, no hypothesis made in the books will ever be discarded. That's just not possible, is it? 

That's the difference between Ayurveda and Medicine. In Medicine, if some pharmaceutical doesn't work, it is removed from shelves. How many ayurvedic products have you seen removed from shelves till now? None. 

That could mean only two things:

A. Ayurveda is 100% flawless.

B. Ayurvedic practitioners and followers are bad at taking rejection 

The problem with your approach is that you are not trying to find out something about Nature directly. Instead you are entering the scene with an ideology that is trying to ascertain the validity of books so that it "appears" to be competing neck and neck with Science. You say:

1.

"Books say Anjana works. So I'll try to see how it works." 

- So, you have pre-decided that since the books mention this-and-this, it is worth exploring and you are designing an experiment without controlling for this bias. And you present circle-jerking as peer-review.

The Right Question would be:

What mechanisms in human brain (if any) allow for telepathy and Extra-sensory perception?

If you find that there aren't any, then this study shouldn't be pursued any further.

2.

"It says so right here in SomeVeda that Black Magic works."

- Again, why not directly observe some phenomenon in Nature and try questioning and reasoning for it instead of establishing the legitimacy of a cultural relic. 

Take a rainbow, for example. It is visible to Eastern and Western people alike, right? You know what Eastern people have written about a rainbow, right?

Now sincerely tell me, have any of the ancients in their wildest dreams come up with an elegant explanation that Science has given? And when it was revealed that rainbow is an illusion created by light reflecting off of falling raindrops in the 42 degree semi-circle with the observer's back facing Sun, how many Eastern proponents updated their understanding?

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZsuZL89Tcs&t=2m38s

Now tell me where in the Eastern scripture was this information updated. Are you telling me that "Eastern way" still holds stubbornly to its original explanation of "What is a rainbow?"  

Science        - +1

Eastern faith -   0

What does this tell you about the nature of scriptures? They are rigid and unchanging, claiming that eternal truth was explored and everything that is to be known is already written by the callligraphist, Mr.Ganesha. 

And I am not talking about big things like Relativity and Quantum Mechanics which you throw around. And I'll tell you why you stick to them. It's the typical Gaps argument. 

Throughout history. 

Every mystery. 

EVER solved has turned out to be... Not Magic

So many hitherto supernatural explanations have been replaced with Scientific explanations that the only places left for mythical thinking are the extremes of Science. The extremely big (Galaxies) and the extremely small (Quarks) and the extremely Subjective (soul). You believe in fancy fairy tales and ask of others to take you seriously. Guess what you get in return? 

Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. 

Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

.

.

Let me repeat that:

Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. 

Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

If you want to pursue these "mysteries" and research them to satisfy your beliefs, no one will stop you. But bringing them to the same level of intellectual rigor of Science and sneaking them from backdoor will only make you look ideologically motivated. Also, if you are interested in "Eastern Way", you should study it. But why do you demand respect for something that has not earned it? Why should I respect it when I know it's a load of hooey? (to borrow from Sheldon Cooper)  

And it's not harmless. It causes immense harm to critical thinking (which is the need of the hour. Steve Jobs learned it the hard way. Yuvraj Singh almost followed in Steve Jobs foot-steps)

On the other hand, I invite you to disrespect Science. If your beef is legitimate,  you will be most honored coz more than anything Science values doubt and skepticism and criticism and dissent. That's how Science furthers its cumulative knowledge. And tell me what are your thoughts on why Science doesn't value Eastern thoughts?

Let me guess. Scientists are ignorant but one day the'll catch up with our Ancient Indians. :D

~~~~~

Parting shot:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Galileo_gambit 

The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

~~~

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

read the following again & again until you get to know what you are trying to do, then you will understand & get answers to your own questions. 

"To understand Psychology you have to study from Psychology point of View not from Poetic/Artistic Point of View. If you study Psychology from Poetic/Artistic Point of view, you will have understanding from Poetic/Artistic point of view but not Psychology point of view. To understand Eastern ways study it through eastern methods not through western methods".

Any way, end of my discussion on this topic.

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran 

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[praveen kulkarni]

A bookmark-worthy article in my opinion on the state of Science in India:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v484/n7393/full/484159a.html 

<..>

Two aspects of the Indian psyche are particularly troubling for a country seeking its rightful place in the modern world. 

The best research papers from India may be competent, but they do not inspire or excite. Very few Indian scientists are known as opinion-makers, trend-setters or leaders. They follow obediently.

Another consequence of this feudal mindset is our unquestioning acceptance — bordering on subservience — to older people. In this part of the world, age is blindly equated with wisdom, and youth with immaturity. 

</>

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM, 

[Madhav]

Hi Kiran,

One needs to realise that though our ancestors made attempts to understand the world around, they did not do it scientifically. Almost all of these stories are fiction. It is only natural that our ancestors had far less knowledge than what we have today. It is also true that our descendants a couple of thousand years down the line, will look at all of us as primitive (yes even with our iPhones). That is how civilisation progresses. There is nothing wrong in that.

If our ancient texts had lot of science in them, that too more advanced than what our modern science has, then all that ancient "science" must have resulted at least in some form of technology, right? How come then, that none of the products we use today, starting from the simple mixie/grinder to our computers and aeroplanes are ALL, I repeat, every single thing without exception, based on modern science. What has ancient science given us so far?

Would you prefer to travel on an aeroplane designed as per the principles of modern science or as per the Pushpaka Vimana design (If such a design exists)? If you have cancer, would you rather take a bath in the Ganga and all the "holy" rivers, or get yourself admitted to the most modern of hospitals providing all sorts of advanced therapies? Given an option, will you educate your children at MIT or would you send them to a veda patashaala? Would you prefer being operated upon by a vedic scholar (who will use ancient medical "science") or a specialist surgeon?

If you answered the questions in my previous paragraph the way I think you would answer, how can you still claim that our Ancient "Science" is better than Modern Science, or that Ancient Science is Science at all? To me, it just does not make sense.

Madhav.

[Sanath Kumar]

Hii kiran,

              there are a thousand people who read the mailing list and this discussion will surely help them understand the truth , so i request you to reply for the above replies from praveen and madhav , and now as you agreed that you cant show the anjana , my question will be directly to ask you if YOU have seen it ,if not how on earth can you believe something  which you have not seen and also which cannot be experimented ,now i think you may ask how i believe quarks exist for which i will tell that they have not completed the study but in your case of anjana  they ( practician ) have already started using the method which means that they had completed the study about anjana and its applications , hence creating fairy tales wont help and i suggest you read the para written by madhav  again and again as its 100% true . and i will conclude by telling that its just another fact (true or false) transferred from one person to other like any other rumour . 

Regards,

  

Sanath Kumar Sastry 

      

[Harshad RJ]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Madhav <madhav.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:

If our ancient texts had lot of science in them, that too more advanced than what our modern science has, then all that ancient "science" must have resulted at least in some form of technology, right? How come then, that none of the products we use today, starting from the simple mixie/grinder to our computers and aeroplanes are ALL, I repeat, every single thing without exception, based on modern science.

Just like all life need not be based on the same biology, all technology need not be based on the same concepts. And different technologies might bring forth different gadgets and applications.

Did ancients (from all parts of the Earth) have the same level of understanding of the universe as modern physics? Most likely not. Could they have discovered alternate technologies? Possible, but not likely.

Note that, "likely not" doesn't mean "not". It is easier to think in black and white, but the real world is full of shades of grey, and so is our knowledge. It is best to learn to deal with probabilities.

I think Kiran's original point was that outright dismissal is not an appropriate response to reports of what appears as pseudo-science. To that extent I fully support it. Doing otherwise, is being pseudo-scientific yourself.

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

 Yes Harshad, my point was exactly that, outright dismissal is not an appropriate response to reports of what appears as pseudo-science. & no one seems to see my that point other than you.

 

It seems like you all have developed a wrong sense about my views. Nowhere I claimed that our ancient science was far superior to modern science. Nowhere I told that abolish modern science & accept only the eastern science. All along I kept telling you to see something of eastern origin through eastern ways rather than through western ways, because without that you cant make sense of something. (Read : To Understand Psyhology, study from psychology point of view :P it only confirms that no one is paying proper attention except Harshad :) ). Neither I am telling that everything that has been said in Eastern Science is Perfect & there is no wrong in it. We can't even claim that with Modern Science that Modern science is 100% true or still somethings are false yet to be understood properly.

 Standing before the discovery of Relativity & if you would have asked a question (like that asked by Lord Kelvin) you could have said like him that there is nothing left in Physics, just some perfect measurements. One man along with many saw standing on the shoulders of giants & blew away the newtonian mechanics based universe. Newtonian mechanics, Relativity had provided a perfect deterministic universe, then Hysenburg found out the uncertainity principle n then the double slit experiment on particles blew away that Detereministic Universe concept & established Probabilistic Universe.

 

 Blindly terming something of eastern origin as psuedo-science is not a right way of response. How many (modern)scientists have undergone the training & teaching that of a eastern mystic? or atleast have studied eastern ways? Scientists like Prof Narlikar wrote about that "Kukudamuni & Brhama" because he had read about it & it seemed to have made sense that ancients knew about the time dilation. And I didnt throw away big things like Relativity or Quantum Physics (Read Prof Narlikar's article as posted by Dr Suresh, even he is using relativity), "its not my made up story". If you dont want to hear about such big things read this. Modern Science itself has come across "Godel's Incompleteness Theorem", that proves that mathematics is incomplete & can never be able to solve some problems, & also the extension of it "Turing Machine" , proved that logic is faulty & is incomplete & even with powerful computers we cant solve some of the problems.

And each civilization need not take the same path as that of ours. Proof is Eastern Civilizations & Western Civilizations themselves, both developed differently. There were groups which thought they can understand the universe by building machines to explore, the other group (I am imagining here) saw dreams & thought that by looking deep within (Meditation) they can make sense about our universe & ourselves. Those who thought that they can understand the universe through machines went on to become scientists/engineers & those who followed that by looking deep within they can make sense became philosophers/mystics.

And you want to know whether I go to modern medicine or ancient ayurveda when faced with some major disease, I will say modern medicine, because very less people have ever followed the eastern medicine & I dont know where to find them. To put it in another way, It's like asking me if I start a company which technology I will follow, obiviously I will say windows, because I know many are skilled in that, not Mac because very very less have experience with Mac. That doesnt mean Mac is not upto the mark with that of Windows. Mac has its own ways of doing things & Windows has its own ways of doing things. My choice doesnt make them good or bad/ right or wrong.

If you see Indian science in its historic context, Indian science almost stopped progress at the beginning of Islamic invasion because most of the knowledge that had been developed was destroyed by the invaders (800 years of work maintained in Nalanda University was burnt) or taken away by them & translated in Arabic & teachers (1500 teachers were there in the university) were killed. Asking questions like why they didnt invent gun powder doesnt make sense because most of the teachers or whole generation that held the knowledge were killed & their works had been burnt. 

"my question will be directly to ask you if YOU have seen it ,if not how on earth can you believe something  which you have not seen", that is exactly I am asking the pursuers of modern science, if you haven't learnt the eastern mysticism/philosophy/science in eastern way how can you discredit it?? & I didnt say it cannot be experimented, it can be experimented but need follow the method (eastern method) of creating that anjana as explained in whatever ways. & Then see if it is true or not. If not discredit it, if it is then accept it. Exacly that is what happend with Yoga.

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

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[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

& The reason to pursue Indian Science/Philosophy/Mysticism is because we have Proof of  strong knowledge in Metallurgy, Mathematics, Astronomy, Medicine, Yoga & Meditation, Vimana's. That should be enough proofs to pursue it to understand further contributions. By further exploration into the eastern thought process might shed some more light on their understanding & their contributions. 

The problem with pursuing Indian Science/Philosophy/Mysticism is since it was Oral Tradition not many written records have been maintained & those who made available the written records have been mostly destroyed during Invasions or have been manipulated by Brahmins. & Even the invaders have killed the whole generations which carried the knowledge from ancient times.

And hardly of around 5% of the ancient knowledge has survived & the translations of those survived texts that exists are by westerners, out of those translations recently people have come to know about India's contribution in Metallurgy, Mathematics, Astronomy, Medicine, Yoga & Meditation, Vimana Shastra. Imagine if we had access to all the knowledge that Ancient Indians had, then many things could have made sense.

Here are some of the Links & resources of interest. 

1. Tao Of Physics ,by Fritj Of Kapra - (Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMBc97xrlyc , Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5gsCHBVbag&feature=relmfu , Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmAhQd_8O00&feature=relmfu , Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngomhf9g4kY&feature=relmfu )

2. Indian Scientific Heritage by Dr N. Gopalakrishnan

3. In Search of the Craddle of Civilization, by Feurstein, Kak &  frawely

4. Forbidden Archeology & the hiddne history of the human race, by Micheal Cremo

5. Human Devolution, by Micheal Cremo

6. Logic and Symbol in the multi-dimensional conception of the universe, by Lama Anagarika Govinda,

7. Bhagavadgita by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

8. The teachings of the Mystics , By W. T Stace

9. Myths and Symbols in Indian Art & Civilization, by H Zimmer

10. Science in Ancient India, by Subhash Kak, Louisiana State University :  http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/a3.pdf

11. Science, Technology,  & Sanskrit in Ancient India, by Dr M .G  Prasad, Stevens Institute of Technology : http://sanskritdocuments.org/articles/ScienceTechSanskritAncientIndiaMGPrasad.pdf

12. Vedic Mathematics, Shri Bharti Krishna Tirtha Swami ji

13. Chariots of Gods, Erich Von Daniken ( related Documentory here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtBfBGCaABU )

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

[Arun Venkataswamy]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Kiran Kumar Tikare <kiranthec...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Yes Harshad, my point was exactly that, outright dismissal is not an appropriate response to reports of what appears as pseudo-science. & no one seems to see my that point other than you.

Remaining silent does not mean that no one sees your point :)

Please continue your point of view.

The general problem I see even in discussions off-list in the real world is that when it comes to debates like this, both the parties have already taken an extreme stance. There are very very few people who can take balanced, unbiased, non passionate stance in these matters.

I have met people who think ancient Indians were a super race. They can't substantiate this with any evidence. They just believe it as a truth. They just know! At the same time, I have met people who will accept higgs boson particles and multiverses without any experimental verification. They are neither physics masters to understand the mathematical models which predict them... They blindly believe that the scientist and scientific community can't be wrong. Again I am not talking about well informed individuals in either sides. I am talking about average individual who is opinionated.

Regards,

Arun

 

[Sandeep]

Hi All,

I partially agree that this is blind-belief and partially disagree with it.

Partially Agree :-
The description of moon is more like earth; Blowing winds, People, a Leader, Food, dog-like animal etc ..

Partially disagree :-
The questionnaire starts off with simple things like, what is inside the house and gradually becomes complicated like what is inside a box. And because the author is aware that all of these are true, he must have logically come to a conclusion that whatever they will hear next will also be true.
Also, he rounds off at the end saying that he is not sure whether this is the description of moon or a small planet and we can be sure when the mysteries of the moon are uncovered soon.
Actually I don't see any boasting in this article as such. Infact, articles like these should make us think beyond what we already know (please note that it was originally published in 1959, at a time when the moon mission was at its infancy. So I don't see why we are spending so much time in 2012 to convince each other that this is blind-belief).

regards,
Sandeep

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@ Arun

 he he ok. Good to know that some people like you are reading. :)

Yes, that is the main problem with such kind of discussions. Whenever any debate on such topics starts,  mostly it is composed of parties who have already taken extreme stance. Most of the times they will have studied only one way & with that way of understanding try to discredit the other way.

And as I said earlier neither Eastern Science nor western science is perfect because both are undergoing evolution along with civilization, eastern science has stopped progress mostly because of invasions & with the destruction of gurukul system of institution, lack of the people who were carrying the oral tradition, who possessed the real knowledge. 

If some scientist studies eastern ways (example in case of Fritjof Capra, Physicist author of Tao of Physics), then he can understand their true significance & tell to the modern scientific community that look eastern mystics/philosophers too have arrived at some of the conclusions that modern physicists have arrived at.

Since last 15 years, I have explored both the worlds eastern mysticism/philosophy & western science. And I follow both because studying both gives complete picture. Its like Scientists who study (Expert level) Relativity usually will not have studied Quantum theory (Expert Level). Then both keep arguing that their theory is right. Only those who study both & try to make sense of the universe comes up with something like string theory. That doesnt mean Relativity is wrong or Quantum theory is wrong or string theory is right. It just means by studying both we can find out the mismatch & form a theory which can resolve compatibility.

@Sandeep

The discussion is not about whether it is right or wrong. Instead the discussion is about the attitude of modern "thinkers" who discredits almost whatever is mostly of eastern origin as fake/bogus/unscientific, without ever studying the ways of eastern  philosophers/mystics/sages. If everyone had that kind of attitude we would not have known the contributions in the area of  Metallurgy, Mathematics, Astronomy, Medicine, Yoga & Meditation, Vimana  Shastra.

To know their understanding, it is very much essential to follow their methodology. That is the reason Isaac Newton was involved in experiments which modern science calls as psuedo-science. 

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

[Amar Sharma]

Am not a subject-person on the east v/s west debate that this topic has later unnecessarily digressed to, I just thought of sharing my views to the comments in the following email made about ancients and their science in general. 1) Would you prefer to travel on an aeroplane designed as per the principles of modern science or as per the Pushpaka Vimana design (If such a design exists)? If you have cancer, would you rather take a bath in the Ganga and all the "holy" rivers, or get yourself admitted to the most modern of hospitals providing all sorts of advanced therapies? Given an option, will you educate your children at MIT or would you send them to a veda patashaala? Would you prefer being operated upon by a vedic scholar (who will use ancient medical "science") or a specialist surgeon? -- As I see the points made above do not seem connected, and appear irrational. No one is asking of living in modern times _with_ ancient theories like traveling modern day with a Vimana design, or MIT versus veda pathashaala in 2012 AD. The point rephrased the other way sounds like "Why was stone age man not able to calculate what happened 10 ^ -43 seconds after Big Bang, or send a spacecraft beyond Pluto". Modern and ancient time lines are not to be mixed. They lived in a time then, we live in a time now, separated by a space not co-existing in the fabric of time. If a Vimana design was the best, and far more technologically advanced at _that_ point of it...it simply was! It does not mean compared with a Concorde or a B-2 ! 2) How come then, that none of the products we use today, starting from the simple mixie/grinder to our computers and aeroplanes are ALL, I repeat, every single thing without exception, based on modern science. -- I believe *everything* we do today has been passed on from them and only them, just manifested in a form of several millenia later. 3) How can you still claim that our Ancient "Science" is better than Modern Science, or that Ancient Science is Science at all? To me, it just does not make sense. -- Why is the comparison of past and present (or future) measured on a weighing scale of co-relation. Ancient science is proven better than modern science weighed on the scales of what level the evolution of mankind was back then, versus eons of evolution passed on till now and where we should be. Guiding a spacecraft to land on an asteriod or building a 10 metre telescope to fly in orbit as recent as in the first decade of 21st century is not more splendid an achievement I think than knowing the geometry, planning, laying out, and actually constructing the Great Pyramid at Giza way back in 2500 BC, in terms of what man was then and what he is now. Which comes up in the next point... 4) One needs to realise that though our ancestors made attempts to understand the world around, they did not do it scientifically. Almost all of these stories are fiction. -- I was pressingly interested in giving an eye opener here, of one random drop of example in ocean of world history. Read the following mind boggling statistics from Wikipedia on the Great Pyramid of Giza, in one breath : "It was 455 ft tall, consists of an estimated 2.3 million limestone blocks from a nearby quarry, the mean opening of the joints is only 0.5 millimetres wide (1/50th of an inch), total mass is 5.9 million tonnes, volume 2,500,000 cubic metres, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day, or moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night. 5.5 million tons of limestone, 500,000 tons of mortar were used in the construction, 8,000 tons of granite imported from more than 500 miles away" apart the myriad of other geometry and its intricate tunnel system, alignment with stars in belt of Orion etc etc.. This is anyway what our history has achieved and etched which we cannot change. Today the tallest building built by man is Burj Khalifa at 2700 feet in Dubai, achieved generally speaking, with the high end computers doing most of the architecture and designing, heavy duty cranes lifting tonnes at one go high in the air, billionaires funding the venture etc etc, I dont think it matches the standard of what was done to erect a mighty 450 feet a whooping 4500 years in the past, with just hands, basic tools and pulleys and ground rollers. The evolution development translates to only 2 feet of growth per year...and from a time when man didnt know his place on the continent itself, to now where he knows his place in the 13.7 billion light years wide Universe! Thats a petty growth. Which ancestor living in a fictional and not scientific world would have achieved the former ??!! 5) What has ancient science given us so far? -- We are what we are in the present, courtesy our past. Me, a soul simply respecting the ancients in the "pure" times they lived, I can say : they gave us the awe and foundation for our today's lives. If the time line versus evolution was lagged, and the pyramid builders and their "ancient science" of 2500 BC lived in the ice age of 10,000 BC, then today we would not be having this mailing list and discussing astrophotography or string theory until the next 7500 years! :-P

[Sunil G.R.]

Agreed to most points of Kiran and few points of Praveen/Madhav.

And yes, as Harshad said i think Praveen/Madhav and few others are not reading (or misreading) Kiran's point.

Here Kiran NEVER said the following points: (but few are assuming he said it or he meant it)
1) Eastern science/methods are superior to Western science.
2) Eastern science is perfect.
3) Believe whatever written in the eastern scriptures are right and try to prove it.
4) Do not criticise on eastern scriptures.
5) Viceversa of all the above :).

Adding more thoughts.

Madhav asked if we are ill then do we go to Ganga or doctor. In first place, feeling this question itself is not relevant to this discussion.
In any case, most of us will go to the doctor. But we also pray to the god! Even the so-called atheists/scientists/western-way-lovers will pray in their form (probably very very few exceptions). So if we analyze this, then why should we 'pray' if we know the illness will be cured for sure by doctors? So can we call this 'pray'ing as a pseudo-science? To go one more step, is it not 'belief/faith/religion/mysticism' itself is pseudo-science?

And Madhav also said at present every-single-thing-WITHOUT-EXCEPTION is based on modern science and asked what has ancient science given us so far? Well the ancient science as given us the 'Culture' and 'Values' which are important for 'Social' life. You may not agree with this. But still they also can be considered as 'products' or 'technology' (may not be materialistic).
Even according to westerners it is called 'Social-Science' and not just 'Social' and people who are studying or administering are also called as 'Social-Engineers'. Social-Culture-Science-Economy are all interdependent and no one entity can last long without others (Can refer to S.Gurumurthy's talks).
Infact even now certain parts of Ayurvedic is still scientific as per western methods.

To conclude:
1) Let us discard or not claim certain things which are not established like Vimana Shastra, Testtube baby, Plastic surgery.
2) Let us also not discard the things on which more research has not gone in. Until recently Yoga was considered as non-science. But now more people are accepting it.
3) Lets give due credit to easterns too on their inventions and discoveries like Bouddhaya-sutra (Pythogoras theorem).

- Sunil.
P.S.: Sorry for dragging the thread.

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@Amar  +1 

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[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@Sunil +1

[praveen kulkarni]

@Amar

Exactly. Our ancestors had to work with whatever they knew at that time. Their knowledge of the real world was far less compared to our present times. Just because they mentioned a few things like Vimana does not imply that they really had airplanes. They simply could have aspired to fly looking at the birds and written it down - "if only, I could fly, it would be like so-and-so". Wishful Thinking.

We should acknowledge that they had good survival skills and architectural skills. But we can't say they must have known something mysterious which Science will discover in 2500 A.D. That's highly unlikely.

@Arun and @Kiran

I agree with your view on extreme adherence to our opinions. But my opinion about doesn't matter as Science relies on evidence and logic. Twice, Kiran mentioned Isaac Newton's obsession with Alchemy. I say that Newton, the stalwart of Science got sidetracked. But Kiran is saying that Newton was a great scientist who invented Calculus, and discovered laws of motion and properties of light. Such a great scientist later took up interest in Alchemy. So, given his past greatness, surely Alchemy must be legitimate. There must be something mysterious about Alchemy, otherwise, why a great scientist like Newton would have pursued it?

This is unscientific thinking. Coz you are claiming that because Newton was right about this-and-this, he was right about everything. No, he wasn't. 

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@Praveen,

Newton didnt take up alchemy in later years, rather he started with it. & that lead to his understanding of the nature of light & nature of gravity & many other things. By citing Newton I am not saying since Newton himself have taken up alchemy it must be true. But I cited Newton to convey that, even he blindly didnt discard alchemy as psuedo-science, he learnt it in Alchemcal way, worked in that area & formed his opinions.

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran

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[Sunil G.R.]

+1 too.

What a balanced reply (probably Arun was expecting this kind of stand) :)

- Sunil.

[praveen kulkarni]

@Kiran

Agreed. Newton tried Alchemy without any bias. So, what's the judgment on Alchemy? Is it legitimate? Can chemistry turn mercury into Gold?

Coz the periodic table in chemistry pretty much destroyed Alchemy's ideas. Looking for explanation of Natural phenomenon in books is the wrong way to go about it. Design experiments, test theories and discard those that don't match up to observations. The problem with Eastern ways is we cling on to our ideas despite there being no evidence. Unshakable  faith.

Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Kiran Kumar Tikare <kiranthec...@gmail.com> wrote:

@Praveen,

But I cited Newton to convey that, even he blindly didnt discard alchemy as psuedo-science, he learnt it in Alchemcal way, worked in that area & formed his opinions.

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@ Praveen

I don't know his conclusions, reading his own writings can shed some light, I haven't found english reprint of his personal notes on alchemy.

To know more about his Alchemical/Occult works please refer : 

1. Isaac Newton: The Last Sorcerer  by Michael White

2. Isaac Newton and the Transmutation of Alchemy: An Alternative View of the Scientific Revolution by Philip Ashley Fanning

3. Isaac Newton's Freemasonry: The Alchemy of Science and Mysticism by Alain Bauer

4. Newton's Occult Studies  :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_occult_studies 

5.  Isaac Newton - Rejector of The Trinity believer in one God (Documentory)  : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2DWBjyVfNU

6. Newton's Dark Secrets (Documentory) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmhPfGo3fE&feature=related

And even though periodic table shattered Alchemy's views, but it was because of alchemical experiments, chemistry saw huge progress, its contributions are still there in the development of chemistry. 

Story doesnt end with the end of Alchemy as it was known. Indeed alchemist's vision of finding Philosophers stone became truth with the modern advent of Atomic Physics. Only after the physicists/chemists found out the internals of an atom & how different atomic configuration gives rise from single to complex elements in nature,now physicists/chemists know that with correct atomic configuration anything can be turned into Gold. Lead (atomic number 82) and gold (atomic number 79) are defined as elements by the number of protons they possess. Changing the element requires changing the atomic (proton) number. The number of protons cannot be altered by any chemical means. However, physics may be used to add or remove protons and thereby change one element into another. Because lead is stable, forcing it to release three protons requires a vast input of energy, such that the cost of transmuting it greatly surpasses the value of the resulting gold.Transmutation of lead into gold isn't just theoretically possible - it has been achieved! There are reports that Glenn Seaborg, 1951 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, succeeded in transmuting a minute quantity of lead (possibly en route from bismuth, in 1980) into gold (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/27/us/glenn-seaborg-leader-of-team-that-found-plutonium-dies-at-86.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm).   Alchemy did achieve its dream, may be the later method was different but whatever it wanted to achieve was achievable.  

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

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[praveen kulkarni]

@Kiran

Ancient ancestors worldover, knew that Mercury turns into Gold before the advent of High Energy Particle Physics! They knew something which was impossible to have been witnessed in Nature just like that?

This is like claiming Ancient Ancestors knew that diseases were caused by viruses and bacteria before germ theory and they were vindicated after the invention of microscopes. 

I don't have to say the awesome reasoning given by ancestors for why diseases occur. Human Body is made of humors, phlegm (kafa), vaat (black bile) and pitt (yellow bile). When these are in imbalance, you get diseases. If you have cold, your phlegm is more than your black bile. So take something hot please. Nowhere is a mention of "cold" is caused by Viruses. 

Or the claim that human body is made up five elements:

Earth, Water, Fire, Aether and Sky.

Like DD1's Shaktimaan.

Crores of people still hold this true despite the knowledge that there are 92 naturally occuring elements, instead of the aforesaid Five.

Why do we hold an alternative "Eastern" explanation even though we know exactly why things are the way they are?

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Kiran Kumar Tikare 

[Arun Venkataswamy]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Amar Sharma <amar_u...@yahoo.com> wrote:

-- We are what we are in the present, courtesy our past. Me, a soul simply respecting the ancients in the "pure" times they lived, I can say : they gave us the awe and foundation for our today's lives. If the time line versus evolution was lagged, and the pyramid builders and their "ancient science" of 2500 BC lived in the ice age of 10,000 BC, then today we would not be having this mailing list and discussing astrophotography or string theory until the next 7500 years! :-P

+1

Nice observation.

Regards,

Arun

 

[praveen kulkarni]

Jiska darr tha, wohi hua,   lymphosarcomaOfTheIntestine 

http://www.livescience.com/19665-belief-magic.html  

[Suneel K Masur]

Mr. Praveen,

I strongly disagree with you.

For your information, it was never said in Indian methods not to ask Guru. It has started from British education system. Earlier to it if you go through Indian methods - it says keep asking until you are fully satisfied. Guru devo bhava is for those who completely solve your questions and passes the knowledge not the half cooked like the British Education system - Clerkship education.

Next for your Polio problem - it was generated by Europe not Indian disease. So no sagas can ask Vishnu to solve the problem. 

Before critising anything you must first know the truth.

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 8:09 PM, praveen kulkarni <pitu.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

@Kiran

I am discrediting Indian methods because they are not robust. Indian methods rely on conformity instead of criticism. It is our cultural problem. You can see that in schools. Don't question the teacher, even if she/he is incompetent. She/he knows everything. (Guru-devo-bhava) Even legitimate criticism is frowned upon.  Personalities and positions and designations are given more importance than originality and creativity and birth and knowledge.

And I am honest enough to appreciate a good idea when I see one. Recently, Doctor Suresh shared a piece on Time Dilation in some ancient text. Now that's awesome. The fact that "some" of our ancients had such deep thoughts is praise-worthy. But they did not have the means to test this idea. So, it remained an un-testable hypothesis ( a nice story) full of supernatural references. It wasn't until scientists  sent airplanes with synchronised atomic clocks that we established Time Dilation as a theory. Science does not mean stating a hypothesis and congratulating ourselves in hindsight. That's like giving JK.Rowling Nobel Prize for coming up with the idea of invisibility cloak in the first place. There is a reason it's called fiction.

And I'll tell you what. You can pick and choose stuff like Dwarka (Atlantis) and Pushpaka Vimana whereas this forms less than 0.002% (just a random low number) of the stuff in scriptures. Most of the inscrutable and vague scriptures don't do squat in predicting anything. They can only do retro-diction like Nostradamus. More than 80% of these glorified books praise Fire God, Wind God, Rain God, Aether God and of-course SkyGods. If you really think our ancient scriptures had figured out more than what Science has helped us uncover, then you will face awkward questions like:

Why didn't Eastern Science cure Polio? Surely, if sages could fly to meet Mr.Vishnu in Vaikuntha, curing polio must be jujubi (frivolous). Just think about it. Science has alleviated human suffering so much and it has given us so much free time. Otherwise, our Eastern Science would have left us to spend 3 hours everyday to fetch water from nearby lake.

source

Hostility towards scientific criticism

    Criticism is a necessary and healthy part of the scientific process.  Anyone who has ever submitted a paper for publication in a scientific journal has been the target of such criticism.  It is the primary mechanism by which standards are maintained within science, and also an important source of the self-corrective nature of science.  Scientists, therefore, learn to be thick-skinned.  They also learn how to focus their criticism on the logic and evidence of an issue, rather than making personal attacks against those proposing a view different from their own.

    Pseudoscientists, by contrast, display clear hostility towards any such criticism.  They view such criticism as personal attacks, even when they are not.  They tend to characterize criticism from mainstream scientists as supporting the status quo, hostility toward new or innovative ideas, or even a full-fledged conspiracy to suppress their ideas.  They will often dismiss the content of criticism by denouncing the philosophical basis of science altogether, or deny the ability of science to pierce their arcane knowledge.

    In short, they view the criticism of their ideas as a problem with science and scientists, not with the evidentiary or logical basis of their claims. 

~~~

Science does not care who comes up with the idea and tests it. If the experiment proves it, great. If not, sorry. It's upto the person to prove it. Talking about balance in such cases is a cop-out. Respect is not given like a throw-away appeasement. Respect is earned. Linus Pauling earned respect because he followed robust methods to come up with a novel idea in Chemistry. Then he proposed that Vitamin C cures all diseases. This claim was found to be bullsh#t and it was rejected. No one gave a hoot that Pauling is a Nobel Laureate. Now that's the best thing about Science. How? 

Take Charles Darwin, for example. He collected evidence for 20 years and tried to disprove his theories until they were seamless and robust. That's the kind of meticulousness expected in science. 

You talk about cultural relativism in finding truth. Tell me this. If Eastern people told you that fire is harmless because Sita walked through it unhurt, would you take their word for it. I suppose you'll test yourself by approaching the fire and fearing the heat. Even kids learn by experimenting. How can you ask scientists to respect something that time and again has been proved non-sense?

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Kiran Kumar Tikare 

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Cheers,

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"Whatever is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, or praiseworthy, think about such things. And the God of peace will be with you."

Please do not print unless you think this is most important

[Sanath Kumar]

Hii,
       Kiran I have myself practiced tuma meditation for few years and hence can tell that it is true and also I am not against or for anyone side in the discussion ,my main interest lies in knowing if it is true or not for which assumptions and indirect methods of testing the phenomenon won't help ,I  asked you if you have seen this was for a reason ,I asked as everyone normally we come across in these types of discussions are pure believers with strongest faith in the topic ,but we hardly come across people who have really seen it and can show us without hesitation , just for an example normally everyone of us believe in GOD rite , then just think why swami vivekananda went and directly asked Sri ramakrishna if he has seen and added can you show me?? , he also told that he will believe only when he has seen it . Now after this he never questioned , why?, because he had attained unshakable faith ,he would would have thought like you that because others have seen let me believe ,no need to test it ?,  I am telling this as you started by contradicting hence I think you are eligible only under two conditions.
1) if you are practicing it with results.
2) if you have seen it and can show us also.
Let me be very clear now if you  don't fall under these two categories then you should not be writing so strongly about anjana , other things may be true about our eastern science ,but the thread is not about other topics hence I am asking specifically  ,Have YOU??, please answer as short as possible with a yes or no ,as other added things will be of no use ,thanks for writing back.
Regards,
Sanath Kumar Sastry

[Amar Sharma]

Not necessary. This thread must have twisted heads of hundreds of readers here and it has been the longest, being far too astray from mainstream astronomy, I request all those concerned to END it right here. Lets be good people and get back to lovely wonderful astronomy. Thanks for cooperating.

[Kiran Kumar Tikare]

@Praveen

Ancient ancestors worldover, knew that Mercury turns into Gold before the advent of High Energy Particle Physics! They knew something which was impossible to have been witnessed in Nature just like that?

Not just like that, it was obvious dedcution, if everything is made up of 5 elements (other natural elements are of these 5 element nature or might be manifestations of these 5 elements) then other elements can be created with different ratios of these 5 elements, this thought might have lead most of the alchemical experiments. What actually we do in basic chemistry? Mix different chemicals with different ratios & see what happens, right? Then based on that logic it is possible for them to have deduced that base metals can be turned to gold if they knew at what propertions they should mix the so called "chemicals".

And if I say that, Indian Alchemy (Rasayana Shastra) from Atharvana Veda was the basis of all other western alchemy you might think I am exagerating the contributions of Indians. But once the proper study has been conducted you will know, what was India's contribution to the development of Modern Science. :)  (But again this is different argument than the one I started before, where I tried to convey that outright discrediting the eastern methods is wrong. Dont mix both again, keep that & this seperately :) )

The Rasayana Shastra was basis to the Ayurveda. & The vata, pitta, kafa concept might be based on the kind of stimulation produced by tasting some of the known chemicals & comparing that with what happens (what stimulation happens) when we are sick. (This I am guessing, I will explore about it & will let you know what lead them to this 3 dosha concept)

To understand them we need to look at everything that they did in their own ways & try to connect the dots & then it might make sense to us.

Well, whatever shaktiman says, go & ask shaktiman himself, I am not shaktiman to answer those questions :P :)

@Sanath

What happens in meditation is your very own experience you can't guaruntee that the same kind of experience I will also have. Ramakrishna parama hamsa said he has seen god when Swami Vivekananda asked him about it. He gave that answer because Ramakrishna paramahansa knew (felt) that Narendranath was ready to follow the path to see that god , otherwise he would not have said that he has seen god.

Yes I agree that most of the people who get into this kind of argument usually will not have seen/experienced themselves about it. But I am not one among those.

I don't know what kind of discussion it leads to even further on this thread, but since you are asking me whether I have seen or experienced, I am responding. :)

1) if you are practicing it with results.

In my earlier response I mentioned I have done some "experiments" (15 years ago) in black magic & have seen them working. But now I can not do it because I have become ineligible as I have broken the rules associated with it. I can not write about it as I have to write about my life from beginning to till now (books to religion to occult to science to engineering). 

2) if you have seen it and can show us also.

 I have seen how this Anjana thing is done, but Let me tell you, it didnt work on me. Why it failed is a different thing (wether the guy who performed was eligible or not or had done sadhana or not or is it completely fake I don't know yet as I am still exploring such things)

& By this I would like to end discussion as I think I have conveyed the necessary points.

If you want to know more contact me personally, to keep away discussing this on this thread or on this group as it is only meant for astronomy related discussions.

Thanks & Regards,

Kiran Kumar

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[Sanath Kumar]

Hii,
       Thanks for the reply Kiran , let's keep the other part of discussion off the mailing list , there will be no end as more and more people come up with their views .

Regards,
Sanath Kumar Sastry

[keerthi kiran]

Hi all,
Yesterday I was away from gmail and today I see 45 mails in this thread... I could not read the whole thread obviously... But from what I read, it looks like there is no correlation between the replies and the topic of discussion.
Just one question to all... Have any of you actually seen or experienced Anjana yourself? If not, how can you discuss pages together on that just by some assumptions?
Also, why are we again dwelling into the same questions of "Were our ancestors a super human race who knew everything"? I think enough has been discussed about it already... We all respect our ancestors for "what they actually did" and for "their contributions to the modern science". There is definitely no need for justifying their works again and again.
Finally, please, lets try to be rational and talk with concrete proofs...

Regards,
Keerthi

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[Sanath Kumar]

KK +1