Search for Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, b. late 1870s in Arrifes, Sao Miguel Island

[Cheri Mello]

Starting this thread over for Dennis Munise, because the other was is too long and the facts and theories are all mixed together.

FACTS

NAME:

Manuel Moniz Cordeiro (various spellings on Moniz in America). Can be found as Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, Manuel Cordeiro, and Manuel Moniz

BIRTH:

4 April 1877 (WWI Draft)

1878 (1920 & 1930 census)

1879 (Death certificate)

1887 (state marriage - WRONG: See Marriage info below)

BIRTHPLACE:

Arrifes on Sao Miguel island (Obituary from Diario de Noticias)

IMMIGRATION:

1902 (both 1920 & 1930 censuses)

1904 (Obit says he was in America 35 years)

MARRIAGE:

15 Nov 1913 Somerset, MA. He was 26 (should be 35-36).

The 1930 census states he was 35 at marriage. On the 1930, he is 52 (b. c. 1878) and if he was 35 at marriage (add 1878 + 35 you get the marriage year of 1913).

DEATH:

16 Nov Bridgewater, MA (Obit from Diario de Noticas) under the name of Manuel Moniz.

PARENTS:

Manuel Moniz (implied from state and church marriage)

Antonia de Jesus Cordeiro (both marriages and death says Cordeiro)

THEORIES

He's NOT the son of Manuel Moniz. He's the son of pai incognito and Antonia de Jesus (daugher of Manuel Cordeiro and Francisca de Jesus) b. 28 Oct 1875 in Arrifes

STRATEGIES

Cheri searched Arrifes marriages 1841-1853 looking for a marriage of Manuel Moniz and Antonia Anybody.

JR searched 1853-1865 for the marriage of Manuel Moniz and Antonia Anybody.

Cheri searched 1870- Sep 1873 and found the marriage of

Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, 43, widower of Francisca de Jesus who is buried in the public cemetery of Arrifes, worker, son legitimate of Joao Moniz, dec'd, and Rosa Jacinta.

Maria da Estrella, 26, single, domestic, daughter of Jose Francisco de Mattos and Antonia de Jesus and they are from Furnas (that's the east side of the island about 30 or so miles away).

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1870-1879/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=143

JR found:

May 25- 1843, Arrifes, Manoel Moniz, filho de Manoel Moniz and Victoria da Conceicao, defunta cc Francisca de Jesus filha de Antonio de Medeiros Brilhante and Teresa de Jesus ambos baptizados Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada; They are both 23

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=28

FOR THOSE HELPING OUT

Can you state what record set you are searching and what years? And if you are floating a theory, please state so. I'm sure we are not only confusing Dennis beyond belief, but we are confusing each other.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[JR]

I think this is Antonia [de Jesus). It says parents are from Relva, but Antonia was born in Arrifes. It might be helpful to research Relva for the grandparents listed in the baptism.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1855-1860/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1855-1860_item1/index.html?page=53

page 50 verso, left page, bottom record, Arrifes baptismos
Antonia, born- Oct 13- 1856, bap- Oct 15, 1856, filha de Manuel Moniz and Francisca de Jesus nats Relva; Pat- Joao Moniz and Rosa de Jesus; Mat- Manuel Rapozo and Perpetua de Jesus; Pad- Antonio Rapozo filho de avos maternos and Maria de Jesus viuva.

JR

[Cheri Mello]

I am searching Arrifes baptisms, 1878, by hand, looking for Manuel born to Manuel Moniz (Moniz Cordeiro, etc) and Antonia Anybody.

Although 1876, 1877, and 1879 have indices and there's no Manuel fitting the parents in the index, the books should be searched manually as someone could have erred in the index.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Cheri Mello]

I search baptisms in Arrifes, 1887 (that outlier marriage age). Not there either.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Dennis Munise]

Thank you for doing this Cheri!  And thank you to everyone contributing.  This is super helpful!

[Dennis Munise]

This is another for the "hmm" file.  

Manuel's wife (Albina Ventura's) ship manifest for her immigration indicates that she's going to stay with her "Uncle Manuel Cordeiro, 564 Underwood St, Fall River (MA)".  I know that this is not the Manuel Cordeiro I'm looking for here because I find this Manuel in the 1920 Fall River Census while my Manuel Cordeiro is properly in the 1920 West Bridgewater census with his family at his known address.

What I do find interesting about this record is that this Manuel Cordeiro lives with his mother in law Mary Menise (I assume this to be the phonetic spelling of Moniz).  So there we have a Cordeiro/Moniz connection but whether this is a clue or not, I'm not sure.

So I guess my question is - is it too coincidental (i.e. was it normal to refer to everyone as "uncle" or some other family member) or is this worthy of some digging?  Since we have Albina's parent info I assume we find her grand parents and then attempt to connect the dots there?  

Thanks!

[JR]

Ok, I found the marriage. I think these are the right people. The fact the age given in America is not an exact match does not prevent all these other facts making a solid case for the right ancestors. Not many other possibilities match these people. The Cordeiro addition comes from Manuel Moniz's maternal grandmother, Rosa de Jesus [Cordeiro], whose father was a Cordeiro. 

See the chart below:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=135

NS da Saude, Arrifes casamentos, page 134, book, 1841-1853; married 1, Oct, 1849
Manoel Moniz, filho de Joao Moniz and Roza de Jesus com Francisca do Amor Divino filha de Manoel Rapozo
Soares and Perpetua de Jesus baptizados NS das Neves, lugar de Relva.

Margin note says, he is 18 years old; she 24 years old.
Testamunhas, Joze de Souza Cardozo and Joao Correia Fernandes cazados desta freguezia.

 

Ancestors of Manuel Moniz Cordeiro

 

 

Generation No. 1

 

        1.  Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, born 26 Oct 1875 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; died in Nov 23 1939.  He was the son of 2. Pai Incognito and 3. Antonia de Jesus.  He married (1) Albina Ventura 15 Nov 1913 in St Patrick church, Fall River, Mass., USA.  She was born 28 Oct 1888 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  She was the daughter of Jacinto de Oliveira Ventura and Ana de Jesus.

 

Generation No. 2

 

        2.  Pai Incognito  He met 3. Antonia de Jesus.

        3.  Antonia de Jesus, born 13 Oct 1856 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  She was the daughter of 6. Manuel Moniz Cordeiro and 7. Francisca de Jesus or Amor Divino.

       

Child of Pai and Antonia is:

        1                 i.    Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, born 26 Oct 1875 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; died in Nov 23 1939; married Albina Ventura 15 Nov 1913 in St Patrick church, Fall River, Mass., USA.

 

 

Generation No. 3

 

        6.  Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, born Abt. 1831 in NS das Neves, Relva.  He was the son of 12. Joao Moniz and 13. Rosa Jacinta or de Jesus.  He married 7. Francisca de Jesus or Francisca do Amor Divino 01 Oct 1849 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

        7.  Francisca de Jesus or Amor Divino, born Abt. 1831 in NS das Neves, Relva.  She was the daughter of 14. Manuel Raposo Soares and 15. Perpetua de Jesus.

       

Children of Manuel Cordeiro and Francisca are:

        3                 i.    Antonia de Jesus, born 13 Oct 1856 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; met Pai Incognito.

                         ii.    Vitoria, born 09 Jul 1860 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

                        iii.    Antonio, born 11 May 1863 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

 

 

Generation No. 4

 

        12.  Joao Moniz, born in NS da Alegria, Furnas; died Bef. 29 Sep 1873.  He was the son of Jose Moniz and Luisa Jacinta.  He married 13. Rosa Jacinta or de Jesus 18 Jan 1824 in NS das Neves, Relva.

        13.  Rosa Jacinta or de Jesus, born in NS das Neves, Relva.  She was the daughter of Manuel Cordeiro and Ana Maria.

       

Child of Joao Moniz and Rosa is:

        6                 i.    Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, born Abt. 1831 in NS das Neves, Relva; married (1) Francisca de Jesus or Amor Divino 01 Oct 1849 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; married (2) Maria da Estrela 29 Sep 1873 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

 

 

        14.  Manuel Raposo Soares, born in NS das Neves, Relva.  He married 15. Perpetua de Jesus.

        15.  Perpetua de Jesus, born in NS das Neves, Relva.

       

Children of Manuel Raposo Soares and Perpetua are:

        7                 i.    Francisca de Jesus or Amor Divino, born Abt. 1831 in NS das Neves, Relva; married Manuel Moniz Cordeiro 01 Oct 1849 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

                         ii.    Antonio Raposo, born in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

JR

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[Cheri Mello]

Yes, those are the parents of the Antonia who had a baby Manuel out of wedlock, but is it Dennis' Antonia?

I've posted the 2 or 3 baptism books that I searched for baby Manuel. That's not enough for a reasonably exhaustive search. The pai incognito looks like a best fit, but until everything else is ruled out, I think the options should be kept open.

Dennis - what did Manuel's death certificate say for his birth? (Yes, it's secondary information, but did it agree with the WWI Draft?) ALSO, did you test your DNA? If you cannot definitely prove or disprove this Antonia you're going to need to use DNA.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/308bc256-483c-4e74-935b-100727d653cbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Munise]

Hi Cheri, the death certificate indicates:

Birth Date:  1/9/1878

Father:  Manuel Munise

Mother:  Antonia Cordeiro

My DNA kit is scheduled to be delivered today so I don't know what the turnaround time is but hopefully should have some new information soon.

[Cheri Mello]

OK, I previously searched 1878 manually and did not come up with your Manuel.

From which DNA testing company did you purchase your test?

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/36e4eb24-0231-4bed-bed0-7b26b6da73f0n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Munise]

I ordered Ancestry's kit.  Is there a preferred kit out there?

[JR]

I am somewhat confused. You have an exact date for Manuel's birth date? I don't see that on the death certificate. What is the source?

I thought Manuel didn't have a father. It says on death certificate his father is Antonio Cordeiro. Is this new information?

JR

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis,

In your case, you'll need to be in all the major databases. You don't know where your Antonia's sibling tested and that is who you need to match (so a descendant of Antonia's parents).

You will need to download your raw data and then upload it to both FTDNA and My Heritage and unlock their tools. Then see what you get from those 3 companies. The only company left would be 23andMe, and you have to order from them. They do not accept transfers.

If it turns out that your immigrant is indeed the son of Antonia and the father unknown, you'll have to do Y-DNA testing. That's only at FTDNA.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/1def77db-0857-450c-bfb8-2f795d479035n%40googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

The death says Manuel was 61 years 10 months and 7 days on the date of his death 16 Nov 1939. That works out to be 9 Jan 1878. The wife was the source for his age at time of death. The WWI Draft said 4 April 1877. Manuel himself was the source.

The death is hard to read. It says dad is Manuel Munise and the mom is Antonio Cordero (sic).

We don't know who Manuel's father is. Nothing fits. His birth is all over the place and I have not seen ANY child born to a Manuel Moniz and Antonia de Jesus in Arrifes. You'd think Manuel would have siblings if he was born in wedlock. That's why the pai incognito baptism is interesting.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/b9baa2ad-6816-480a-a8a7-d9cb2032a877n%40googlegroups.com.

[JR]

It seems to me there is no guarantee that Manuel Moniz and Antonia [de Jesus] Cordeiro are from Arrifes. It is Albina Ventura that is from Arrifes. There are Moniz and Cordeiros all over Sao Miguel.  Looking for this couple without a village or freguesia is futile.  You have to get lucky.

JR

[Cheri Mello]

It's in his obituary on 24 Nov 1939 from Diario de Noticias:

I do lean towards him being the son of pai incognito and Antonia de Jesus. The baptisms are indexed in the back in Arrifes. It wouldn't be that hard to look from 1876-1885 for the couple named Manuel Moniz or Manuel Cordeiro or Manuel Moniz Cordeiro and Antonia de Jesus having babies (Manuel's siblings). If there's not a couple by that name having babies in Arrifes, then I think Dennis most likely comes from the pai incognito.

His DNA may be in early April. That will help.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/16a2cd0a-30e1-4c38-963a-d8569839cfffn%40googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Munise]

So I decided to go through and catalog all Manoel births in Arrifes beginning with 1877.  This assumes that the following facts, from various sources, are correct.  I fully realize that any of these sources may not be correct so I'm just trying to eliminate what I can.  For the purposes of this I'm using Moniz and Munise interchangeably as I believe the family had done in the past.

From what we have gathered thus far from various documents (to save you from scrolling back to the top of this thread):

Name:  Manuel Moniz Cordeiro (Info given by him on draft card), Manuel M. Cordeiro (name used on deeds), Manuel Moniz (name used on all children's birth certificates)

Birth Date:  April 14, 1877 (info given by him on draft card), year of 1878 (1920 & 1930 census), January 9, 1878 (death certificate, likely provided by his wife)

Parents' Names:  Manuel Moniz, Antonia de Jesus (marriage certificate), Manuel Munise, Antonia Cordeiro (death certificate)

Immigration Date:  1902 (1920 & 1930 census)

I came across this record in the Arrifes baptisms for 1877:

Name:  Manoel  (Record #61)

Birth Date:  April 17, 1877

Father's Name:  Pai Incognito

Mother's Name:  Maria de Jesus

Paternal Grandparents:  Avos Incognito

Maternal Grandparents:  Jose Raposo, Maria Francisca

Godfather:  Antonio Moniz

Godmother:  Antonia de Jesus

I know the questions I'm about to ask can't be answered definitively, I'm just trying to understand if things are "more probable than not" because I don't know the cultures of the time.

• Assuming something happened to Maria de Jesus, would the child be raised by the godparents or the grandparents?
• Were the godparents generally married to each other?  I'm wondering if it's possible Antonio Moniz and Antonia de Jesus were married and Antonia's family surname is Cordeiro.
• Who were the godparents usually in relation to the parents?
• Assuming this is the Manuel I'm looking for, and he was raised by Antonia de Jesus, under what circumstances would he say Antonia is his mother?
• I ask the above question because passport 198 from this record shows a passport issued in 1902 to a Manoel Moniz whose parents are Pai Incognito and Antonia Moniz

This is nowhere near a slam dunk but I'm just trying to figure out my next step to chase this lead to see if it has something or to see if it's a dud.

Thanks!

[JR]

That baptism states "Antonio Moniz camponeo e madrinha sua irmao (his sister) Antonia de Jesus." So Antonio Moniz and Antonia de Jesus were brother and sister and not married. They were likely children of the maternal grandparents, but not necessarily. The godparent role became more symbolic than anything else. Many priests, sacristaos (priest's helpers), and midwives were also godparents.

Look for the maternal grandparents marriages if you want to pursue this angle.

JR

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis said:

• Assuming something happened to Maria de Jesus, would the child be raised by the godparents or the grandparents?

• Answer: Could be the godparents, grandparents, aunt/uncle, older cousin, any of them would work.

• Were the godparents generally married to each other?  I'm wondering if it's possible Antonio Moniz and Antonia de Jesus were married and Antonia's family surname is Cordeiro.

• Answer: No marriage is not a requirement. Godparents could be two unrelated individuals.

• Who were the godparents usually in relation to the parents?

• Answer: Anybody. Relatives, friends, important people in the village. I sometimes think my people went to the church without anyone in the mind and the priest grabbed the gardener or grave digger. LOL
  

• Assuming this is the Manuel I'm looking for, and he was raised by Antonia de Jesus, under what circumstances would he say Antonia is his mother?

• Answer: It'll be his interpretation of the question in the situation that he is in. If he considers Antonia his mother, then he'll call her his mother. Back then, nobody would say "biological mother" vs. "adoptive mother."

• I ask the above question because passport 198 from this record shows a passport issued in 1902 to a Manoel Moniz whose parents are Pai Incognito and Antonia Moniz

• Answer: Yeah, that's one to keep an eye on.
  

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/4601d7ea-e903-40f5-af23-ae902a6f2239n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Munise]

I've not given up on this, just trying to find different angles to research.

Assuming that Manuel's immigration year of 1902 is correct on the Census (his wife's was correct on one, off by a year on another), what dates should I be searching between on the passport lists?  In other words on average how far ahead of a voyage would one have been recorded in the passport records?  Should I start with December 1901?  Earlier?

I want to index all people named Manuel, parents and parish.  Previously I only focused on Arrifes but I have to be open to the fact that he may have been born outside of that village.

Thanks!

[Cheri Mello]

Arrifes isn't that far from Ponta Delgada for him to register. I haven't seen anyone register more that 2 or so months before the boat left. Since your ancestor was close by, he may have registered only a few

days before the boat left.

[Dennis Munise]

Revisiting this old thread (still looking for Manny!).  I don't know whether to start a new thread or keep it here so I'll keep it here for now.

I am attempting to document whatever I can for the birth of Manuel to Antonia de Jesus and pai incognito, however even with this I'm running into a brick wall.  Here is the birth record for Manuel that I'm trying to research:  http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1870-1879/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=451

1. What is the information following "moradore"?  I have not seen this before.  Is it relevant to the search?
2. I have searched birth records for Antonia from 1838 - 1842 in Arrifes and do not see any Antonia with these parents
3. I have searched the Arrifes birth records from 1850 - 1855 for ANY child born to these parents and find none.
4. I have searched the Arrifes marriage records from 1870 - 1875 for the godparents, just on a whim to see if they are related to Antonia, and to also see if it notes they came from another town.
5. Is there anything else in this birth record that could indicate where to search next?

Next is a question related to pai incognito, and maybe this should be its own thread for future reference.  Has anyone had luck identifying pai incognito?  If so, what resources did you use?  In Manuel's case it is indicated (US marriage record, US death certificate) that his father is Manuel Moniz.  Assuming the pai incognito is his birth record, where would we look for Manuel Moniz?  On Joao Ventura's presentation he said that even though the birth record said pai incognito, usually the child, mother and the entire village knew who the father was.

Thanks for all your help!

[Cheri Mello]

1. What is the information following "moradore"?  I have not seen this before.  Is it relevant to the search? On page 2, line 3? "at Canada do Cat-whatever." It's the street name. It depends on how long people lived there. Maybe it's relevant, maybe not.
   
2. I have searched birth records for Antonia from 1838 - 1842 in Arrifes and do not see any Antonia with these parents Why are you sure that Antonia was 33-37 when she gave birth? Maybe she was older or younger.
   
3. I have searched the Arrifes birth records from 1850 - 1855 for ANY child born to these parents and find none. You'd need to expand your search. I'd find the marriage of Antonia's parents first. That's a bit easier and not as many records to look through.
   
4. I have searched the Arrifes marriage records from 1870 - 1875 for the godparents, just on a whim to see if they are related to Antonia, and to also see if it notes they came from another town. It says the godparents are married, but there's no way to know if they are couple in their 50s or in their 20s. You'd need a broader search.
   
5. Is there anything else in this birth record that could indicate where to search next? No.
   

Next is a question related to pai incognito, and maybe this should be its own thread for future reference.  Has anyone had luck identifying pai incognito?  If so, what resources did you use?  In Manuel's case it is indicated (US marriage record, US death certificate) that his father is Manuel Moniz.  Assuming the pai incognito is his birth record, where would we look for Manuel Moniz?  On Joao Ventura's presentation he said that even though the birth record said pai incognito, usually the child, mother and the entire village knew who the father was.

Yeah, the entire village probably knew, but there's no one alive today that was alive then who can tell you. Sometimes, the baby is claimed later in life and a margin notation is entered on their baptism stating that the father came forward and declared the child his. Sometimes, it would be entered in a separate book (legitimacaos). None of that happened for you. So my question is - Antonia's parents who are Manuel Cordeiro and Francisca de Jesus - who are their parents? Does that Manuel Cordeiro flip his name back and forth with a different surname? Was there a Moniz in Francisca's background? That might give you more clues to weigh the evidence. Other than that, you'd definitely have to trace the line from this couple through a sibling of Antonia's and DNA test someone to see if they match you.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Dennis Munise]

1. What is the information following "moradore"?  I have not seen this before.  Is it relevant to the search? On page 2, line 3? "at Canada do Cat-whatever." It's the street name. It depends on how long people lived there. Maybe it's relevant, maybe not.  I guess my first inclination is - are we looking at the word Canada?  All of the other capital Cs are significantly larger than the rest of the text, unless canada is used as a noun as opposed to proper noun?  I read the text after that word as "do Calote".  Not sure what this changes but google translate indicates that "do Calote" means "of the default".  Also could be a street name as a google search shows a Beco (Alley) do Calote, as well.
   
2. I have searched birth records for Antonia from 1838 - 1842 in Arrifes and do not see any Antonia with these parents Why are you sure that Antonia was 33-37 when she gave birth? Maybe she was older or younger.  This was a typo on my part, I searched 1838 - 1862 which was an age range of 13-37 which I thought a reasonable age range.  But I can still go further back.
   
3. I have searched the Arrifes birth records from 1850 - 1855 for ANY child born to these parents and find none. You'd need to expand your search. I'd find the marriage of Antonia's parents first. That's a bit easier and not as many records to look through.  That's where I was going with my search above but cannot find anything between these two people.  But your point is taken, I should look for the marriage records between these two as well.  Unfortunately the original birth record doesn't show that they were in fact from Arrifes.  Just that Antonia was but I can't find her so I wonder if it is correct info.
   
4. I have searched the Arrifes marriage records from 1870 - 1875 for the godparents, just on a whim to see if they are related to Antonia, and to also see if it notes they came from another town. It says the godparents are married, but there's no way to know if they are couple in their 50s or in their 20s. You'd need a broader search.  Fair point and why I didn't spend a ton of time on this one.
   

1. Is there anything else in this birth record that could indicate where to search next? No.

To one of your last questions - in the US, Manuel does flip back and forth between Cordeiro and Moniz, regularly.  How or why they settled on Moniz, I don't know but I've seen him use both names in the same timeframe.

Thanks!

[Cheri Mello]

1) So on the street, canada do Calote....In America, I could live on Calote St, Calote Dr, Calote Cir, Calote Way, Calote Ave, Calote Pl....I don't know that "Canada" translates into, but it's a word like Place, Way, Avenue - something along those lines. Yes, I capitalized it without thought. I knew it was a street name and I was taught to capitalize the whole thing, even the Way, Place, Ave, etc. So that was just a habit the overtook what I read. He did not capitalize canada. If you look at the record on the left, he wrote that couple lived on "rua da Piedade" which I would say was Piedade St. (rua is street). Yeah, he wrote Piedade street. I'm not sure on the capitalization of those parts of the streets in Portuguese.

2) For Antonia giving birth, I wouldn't look for her birth younger than 13. I'd come forward to about age 50. So search ages 38-50. And hope she was on the lower end of that age range!

3) There's a thing with Relva and Arrifes. Arrifes broke off from Relva. So go to Relva next. Kathy Cardoza switched the map for Sao Miguel at my request. It came from the CCA, and although it is rather busy looking, you can see every freguesia. That whole area that I circled was Relva at one time. Arrifes broke off in 1833. Covoada broke off in 1980, so you can ignore that one (those researchers would be looking in Relva). Then after that, I'd check the Sao Jose church in Ponta Delgada. Santa Clara belonged to Sao Jose until 2002. They are not all that far apart. When I was there in 2018, I stayed in Santa Clara and walked to the archives which is located in the Matriz area (yellowish - Sao Sebastiao church). Maybe it took me 45 minutes to walk there? So 1.5 miles?

http://www.worldgenweb.org/azrwgw/maps-churches-and-villages/sao-miguel/

Just a wild guess - Moniz was easier to pronounce than Cordeiro?

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/ffdcd22b-6dec-4061-8a17-1eb1436b0a4dn%40googlegroups.com.

[JR]

I posted the marriage earlier in the thread. They married Oct 1- 1849.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=135

----------------------------------

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1855-1860/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1855-1860_item1/index.html?page=53

page 50 verso, left page, bottom record, Arrifes

Antonia, born- Oct 13- 1856, bap- Oct 15, 1856, filha de Manuel Moniz and Francisca de Jesus nats Relva; Pat- Joao Moniz and Rosa de Jesus; Mat- Manuel Rapozo and Perpetua de Jesus; Pad- Antonio Rapozo filho de avos maternos and Maria de Jesus viuva

[Dennis Munise]

Hi JR, I did see those records however I'm not connecting the dots, and maybe I'm just being dense.

Manuel, born 26 OCT 1875 to pai incognito and Antonia de Jesus.  Maternal grandparents are Manuel Cordeiro and Francisca de Jesus.

The records you link above (both Manuel and Francisca's marriage as well as Antonia's birth) list the surname as MONIZ.  I don't see a Cordeiro even in the prior generations.  So I guess my question is, how are we making that jump?

If this truly is the birth record of my great grandfather, my theory is the Moniz is related to pai incognito (since later in life Manuel said his father's name is "Manuel Moniz") and not Antonia, however I'm not ruling out that Antonia could be a Moniz Cordeiro.  I just haven't seen anything to even hint at that being the case, and I cannot find a birth record of an Antonia to a Manuel Cordeiro and Francesca de Jesus in Arrifes.

Thanks!

[JR]

Okay, I can see where you are hung up, now. I went back one more generation and that's how the Cordeiro connection comes in. In my experience, despite what is recorded, people often have more than one surname and that's how they get passed down with different and alternate name usage. You can often see this one researching grandchildren and great children who give names to their ancestors that do not appear on records of their time. Here are the parents of Rosa de Jesus or Rosa Jacinta, who married Joao Moniz. So, in all likelyhood Rosa's whole name was something like this: Rosa de Jesus Cordeiro. Interestingly, Rosa also has Moniz in her ancestry; that's a bonus!

12.  Joao Moniz, born in NS da Alegria, Furnas; died Bef. 29 Sep 1873.  He was the son of Jose Moniz and Luisa Jacinta.  He married 13. Rosa Jacinta or de Jesus 18 Jan 1824 in NS das Neves, Relva.

        13.  Rosa Jacinta or de Jesus, born in NS das Neves, Relva.  She was the daughter of Manuel Cordeiro and Ana Maria.

Joao Moniz and Rosa de Jesus, in turn passed down their names to Antonia de Jesus. In all likelihood, Antonia's whole name is something like Antonia de Jesus Moniz or Cordeiro. Either way, Manuel, chose to adopt both names and and became Manoel Moniz Cordeiro.

Hope this helps.

JR

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis, allow me to draw you a picture. (scroll.....)

Don't get hung up on what João Ventura said. Yes, he's right, people knew who the dad was, BUT NOBODY WAS TELLING MANUEL! The Cordeiro is coming from Manuel's maternal side. I've never seen the child of a pai incognito use his biological family name unless he was claimed by the dad.

Manuel is basically using his maternal grandfather's surname. I've seen that happen before. Once you start to understand we are pointing you in the right direction and you start research the grandfather, you'll probably find him with Moniz and Moniz Cordeiro.

Starting with Manuel's grandparents, you are going to have to use the Relva records, with the exception of Joao Moniz who came over from Furnas. That is why I was highlighting in green.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Geraldo Dutra de Andrade Neto]

Hello,
I'm searching for this couple from São Miguel, João George and Maria de Souza.
They had a son Manuel de Souza Dias, born in Nossa Senhora das Candeias, São Miguel and married in Rio de Janeiro 7 jan 1744.

Thanks for any help.

Geraldo

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Geraldo,

That church is in the freguesia of Candelaria. Their records go back to the 1500s. They have been digitized and can be accessed here:

https://tombo.pt/f/pdl03

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Altino Demelo]

This may be the record here:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-CANDELARIA-C-1682-1773/SMG-PD-CANDELARIA-C-1682-1773_item1/index.html?page=15

It continues on the next page

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-CANDELARIA-C-1682-1773/SMG-PD-CANDELARIA-C-1682-1773_item1/index.html?page=16

She is Maria de Souza marrying João Jorge Feb 10, 1702

She was baptized May 10, 1683 in Candelária, he was baptized Nov 14, 1676

She is the daughter of Ántonio De Sousa and Marcelina De Sousa (ou Paixão)

He is the son of Manuel Jorge and Ursula De Oliveira.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 10, 2022, at 8:08 PM, Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Geraldo Dutra de Andrade Neto]

Thanks Altino and Cherry.

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