Genoveva Inacia five children livng Almagreira (Lajes do Pico)

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Sandra Valine Dauer

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Aug 3, 2019, 12:11:59 AM8/3/19
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Genoveva is listing as birth Mother and Manuel Silviera Brum as Father on the first two children.  On the last three children she is listed a widow. On the 4th child widow of Manuel Silveira.  Is the correct on the five records? Anyone have similar ancestors where the Father is absent and or she is considered a widow?  The links are listed below.  Thank you Sandra Valine Dauer
1. Manuel bottom right top left No 18
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1868-1875/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1868-1875_item1/P37.html  
2. Maria bottom left top right No 81
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1868-1875/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1868-1875_item1/P113.html 
3. Joao bottom right top left No 84 
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1868-1875/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1868-1875_item1/P215.html  
4. Maria Bottom right top left No 87
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1875-1877/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1875-1877_item1/P74.html 
5. Francisca Bottom left top right No 47
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1875-1881/PIC-LJ-LAJES-B-1875-1881_item1/P159.html  
 

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Gayle Machado

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Aug 3, 2019, 3:39:01 AM8/3/19
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Sandra,

This situation does seem unusual (at least to me. ) I checked with CITCEM and that database lists the last three children with “pai incognito” so I went back to the actual records and noticed that the last three were listed as “natural” not legitimate children of Genoveva. I’m wondering whether it was known or merely assumed Manuel Silveira Brum was deceased. If merely assumed, maybe she couldn’t remarry. Have you looked for the marriages of the last three children to see if a “father” was suddenly known or remained incognito ? If known, who was he ? Sounds like fun figuring this out. 🙃 

Gayle
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Sandra Valine Dauer

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Aug 3, 2019, 12:56:28 PM8/3/19
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Gayle thanks for the idea.  Here is Maria Rosario marriage record.  I think it says illegitimate? daughter of Genoveva da Conceicao with no mention of a Father.  Is this correct?  Need help with the lines after describing the witness Jose Maria Bettencourt.
 For Genoveva's daughter Francisca I have not found her marriage record in California.  She first married Manuel Vieira Pinheiro, lived in Fresno County, California had ten children, Manuel died 1922.  Next she married Manuel Rodrigues aka Rodgers or Rogers.  Francisca died 1947 and is buried with her first husband in Selma, Calfornia.
Thanks Sandra Valine Dauer

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Sandra Valine Dauer

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Aug 3, 2019, 1:15:46 PM8/3/19
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Sorry here is the link for the 1898 marriage of Maria do Rosario daughter of Genoveva
bottom right top left
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PIC-LJ-LAJES-C-1888-1899/PIC-LJ-LAJES-C-1888-1899_item1/P112.html 
Thanks Sandra Valine Dauer 

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Margaret Vicente

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Aug 3, 2019, 2:12:12 PM8/3/19
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Hello Sandra,

 

In order to visualize what happened I had to do a time line so I could see what and when.

First two children: legitimate of Manuel Silveira de Brum and Genoveva Inacia

 

08-02-1869 Manuel f.o legitimo Mel Silveira de Brum e Genoveva Inacia

05-11-1871 Maria fa legitima Mel Silveira de Brum, Agricultor e Genoveva Inacia

 

In between 1871 and 1874 – Manuel Silveira passed away –  

 

Genoveva continued to have children, “naturally” and of “unknown” father:

26-09-1874 Joao fo natural de Genovea inacia, viuva de

08-11-1877 Maria fa natural Genoveva inacia, viuva de

10-06-1880 Francisca fa natural Genoveva inacia, viuva de

 

Marriage of Maria do Rosario, says “Illegitimate” daughter of Genoveva, viuva.   With this “qualification” the illegitimate indicates the unknown father was a married man, that’s where the “illegitimate” versus natural, were the father single, or widower.

 

Hope this helps.

Margaret

JesseAndDeborah Mendonca

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Aug 3, 2019, 2:21:35 PM8/3/19
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Can you move into the marriage records of those illegitimate children and see who they listed as their parents?   Possibly even passports?   It seems like they would have knowledge of the married man.   

Debbie



Cheri Mello

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Aug 3, 2019, 3:39:23 PM8/3/19
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Debbie,

Just like today, there are things that families will speak about and there are things they will not speak about.

If the married man came forward and acknowledged the children, then yes, the children would state on their marriage (or on the baptism of their own kids) who the father was. If the married man never came forward, then it wasn't spoken of. And yes, at least half the freguesia probably knew who the father was.

At least with 3 kids (hopefully by the same man), DNA can reveal who that man is, as long as there are testers from the married man's family.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada


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Gayle Machado

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Aug 4, 2019, 5:27:34 AM8/4/19
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Sandra,

Yes. It says illegitimate. Strange since baptism says natural. As for the witnesses: Jose Maria Bettencourt, proprietor, and Jose Bettencourt de Macedo, farmer. However, I’m on my phone so I hesitate to say with 100% certainty. 

Gayle 

PS: Margaret is the true expert. 

Sandra Valine Dauer

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Aug 7, 2019, 4:12:32 PM8/7/19
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Thank you for your help.  I checked her daughter, Maria Rosario,  four children baptism records from Lajes do Pico: Manuel 24 Nov 1901 list maternal grandparents Jose Silveira e Genoveva Ignancia; Maria 29 Jan 1904 and Joao 08 Jun 1908 and Francisca 16 Dec 1906 only list maternal as Genoveva Ignancia.  Sandra Valine Dauer

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Sandra Valine Dauer

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Aug 7, 2019, 4:24:13 PM8/7/19
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My final source for Genoveva Inacia is O PICO by Maria Norberta Amorim.  On page 423-24 Fogo 332 Almagreira de Baixo list Genoveva Ignanica as a Widow, age 63 children Maria age 11, Joao age 8 Maria R age 5 and Francisca age 2.  I believe these listings are from a census type report taken around 1882.
"O casamento entre Manuel Silveira de Brum e Genoveva Inacia realizara-se 19 de Fevereiro de 1859, aos 34 e 22 anos, respectivamente.  Baptizaram dos filhos.  Em 25 de Setembro de 1874, Genoveva Inacia baptizava o primeiro de tres filhos naturais, no estado de viuva."
Sandra Valine Dauer


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doreen...@gmail.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 10:10:25 AM8/9/19
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Sandra I do not know if this will help but I might have some information. I have a Genovera Ignacia being the child of  Jose Silveira Carvao de Brum and Maria de Brum. I just messed up the database on this couple trying to type the information into this message but I will recover it from what I have saved to the cloud and get back to you. Do you think this is the same couple. Doreen

 

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From: Sandra Valine Dauer
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 1:12 PM
To: azo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Genoveva Inacia five children livng Almagreira(Lajes do Pico)

 

Thank you for your help.  I checked her daughter, Maria Rosario,  four children baptism records from Lajes do Pico: Manuel 24 Nov 1901 list maternal grandparents Jose Silveira e Genoveva Ignancia; Maria 29 Jan 1904 and Joao 08 Jun 1908 and Francisca 16 Dec 1906 only list maternal as Genoveva Ignancia.  Sandra Valine Dauer

 

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On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 2:27 AM 'Gayle Machado' via Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sandra,

 

Yes. It says illegitimate. Strange since baptism says natural. As for the witnesses: Jose Maria Bettencourt, proprietor, and Jose Bettencourt de Macedo, farmer. However, I’m on my phone so I hesitate to say with 100% certainty. 

 

Gayle 

 

PS: Margaret is the true expert. 


On Aug 3, 2019, at 10:15 AM, Sandra Valine Dauer <acor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry here is the link for the 1898 marriage of Maria do Rosario daughter of Genoveva

bottom right top left

Thanks Sandra Valine Dauer 

 

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On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 9:56 AM Sandra Valine Dauer <acor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gayle thanks for the idea.  Here is Maria Rosario marriage record.  I think it says illegitimate? daughter of Genoveva da Conceicao with no mention of a Father.  Is this correct?  Need help with the lines after describing the witness Jose Maria Bettencourt.

 For Genoveva's daughter Francisca I have not found her marriage record in California.  She first married Manuel Vieira Pinheiro, lived in Fresno County, California had ten children, Manuel died 1922.  Next she married Manuel Rodrigues aka Rodgers or Rogers.  Francisca died 1947 and is buried with her first husband in Selma, Calfornia.

Thanks Sandra Valine Dauer

 

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On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 12:39 AM 'Gayle Machado' via Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sandra,

 

This situation does seem unusual (at least to me. ) I checked with CITCEM and that database lists the last three children with “pai incognito” so I went back to the actual records and noticed that the last three were listed as “natural” not legitimate children of Genoveva. I’m wondering whether it was known or merely assumed Manuel Silveira Brum was deceased. If merely assumed, maybe she couldn’t remarry. Have you looked for the marriages of the last three children to see if a “father” was suddenly known or remained incognito ? If known, who was he ? Sounds like fun figuring this out. 🙃 

 

Gayle


On Aug 2, 2019, at 9:11 PM, Sandra Valine Dauer <acor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Genoveva is listing as birth Mother and Manuel Silviera Brum as Father on the first two children.  On the last three children she is listed a widow. On the 4th child widow of Manuel Silveira.  Is the correct on the five records? Anyone have similar ancestors where the Father is absent and or she is considered a widow?  The links are listed below.  Thank you Sandra Valine Dauer

1. Manuel bottom right top left No 18

2. Maria bottom left top right No 81

3. Joao bottom right top left No 84 

4. Maria Bottom right top left No 87

5. Francisca Bottom left top right No 47

 

 

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acor...@gmail.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 10:46:18 AM8/9/19
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Yes

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doreen...@gmail.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 10:49:08 AM8/9/19
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Can you send me where you are with this couple so I can determine what you need. I have Genoveva’s siblings too.

 

 

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acor...@gmail.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 11:03:42 AM8/9/19
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Doreen trying to confirm her four children who immigrated to California. Will send you a PM

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