Maria Camelo-Fenais da Ajuda

[Fábio Márquez]

Caros amigos do grupo! 

Estou tendo dificuldades em decifrar o que o cura escreveu no registo de Maria(primeiro à direita) após o nome de sua mãe, Barbara Muniz. 

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-RG-FENAISAJUDA-B-1662-1699/SMG-RG-FENAISAJUDA-B-1662-1699_item1/index.html?page=37

Alguém poderia me ajudar, por gentileza?

[Cheri Mello]

It's a little hard to read. I do see the word "grao" below Barbara Muniz' name. Maybe the parents are not married yet? That is my wild guess.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Philippe GARNIER]

Ola Fabio,

depois de Barbara Muniz : "que entre elles ? (ouverão?) , e por serem parentes em grao prohibido impetrão breve de sua santitade".

Então, os pais são parentes em grão prohobidop, pediram uma dispensa do Papa (sua santitade), e esperam a resposta antes de se casarem.

Abs

Philippe GARNIER

Paris - France

https://philippegarnier112.wixsite.com/familiasilhaterceira

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[Cheri Mello]

My hunch was right! Fabio, I would email João Ventura and ask him if the dispensation still exists for this couple, on or before February 1674 in the council of Ribeira Grande (in Fenais da Ajuda). Not that many dispensations still exist. I did find a couple of my ancestors in the 1700s, but many others no longer exist, so I could not see them.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAH_FA1h4B7kpSyOFYTB37y-D-wxJ%2Brm3oH%3D%2BWm_We3QSf2pv%3DA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Philippe GARNIER]

Ola Cheri e Fabio;

A regra que exclui os casos de consanguinidade no quarto grau existe desde o Concílio de Trento (1565). Assim como os pedidos de dispensa.
Não há exceções, mesmo que os arquivos não as tenham conservado. O que é frequente no século 17, como mostra a perda dos registros de casamentos, eles também obrigatórios desde o Concílio de Trento.

Abs

Philippe GARNIER

Paris - France

https://philippegarnier112.wixsite.com/familiasilhaterceira

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[Fábio Márquez]

Agradeço ao Phillipe e à Cheri pelos feedbacks! Cheri, você teria o email do senhor João Ventura? Outra coisa: Neste caso, a menina seria uma filha "natural" e não legítima? Eles seriam primos próximos? 

Atenciosamente, 

Fábio Marques

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[Philippe GARNIER]

Sim. A filha é "natural" e podera ser legitimada depois do casamento dos pais.

Os pais são primos, ao maximum en 4° grao.

Abs

Philippe

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[Cheri Mello]

HI Fabio,

João's email is heroi99 at yahoo.com

Yes, the child would be "filha natural." After her parents' marriage, she would be legitimized. 

Close cousins depends on what you call close. The Catholic church back then we only interested in 1st through 4th degrees. Someone already posted the church laws.

1st consanguinity - Something like and uncle and niece marrying. 1st of affinity would be marrying your brother-in-law or sister-in-law because your spouse died (I have one ancestor who married his mother-in-law after his wife died probably in childbirth).

2nd degree - 1st cousins

3rd degree - 2nd cousins

4th degree - 3rd cousins.

From a lecture by João Ventura about the dispenations:

*   All dispensation records that exist are in Angra, Terceira; some were given to the couple; some were filed with the diocese.  Very hit and miss. More

    prominent families.

*   Indexed by year and village.

*   All dispensations were granted by the bishop because it cost money to send the dispensation from Rome and it could take 4 to 5 years.  In extreme

    cases, the local priest could grant the dispensation.

*   Rome granted all dispensations

The last time I went, a friend asked me to look up a dispensation on the island of Pico. Here is about 50 years worth of dispensations on the island of Pico, the 3rd most populated island. I would say each bound packet was about 2.5 inches or 6.3 cms thick. So the dispensations are very hit and miss and not much exists. But you don't know until you look:

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAN%3DQnBx9-nqOgK-EPe3GpOcPzwXVZCBNY4Dkio6mnFmzff8-Qw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Fábio Márquez]

Muito obrigado, pessoal! Tenho só uma dúvida: As dispensas de São Miguel se encontram também nestes pacotes? Encontrei o casamento dos pais de Maria :https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-RG-FENAISAJUDA-C-1622-1683/SMG-RG-FENAISAJUDA-C-1622-1683_item1/index.html?page=169

Será que esse registo reforça o que o cura escreveu no registo de baptismo de Maria? 

Atenciosamente, 

Fábio Marques

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[Philippe GARNIER]

O ano do casamento e dpois do batismo da filha. Como jà era baptizada, no necessario de indicar que os noivos jà tem uma filha.

En facto, a presentação da menina com os dois pais, é uma legimitação de facto (ao contrario que escrevei).

Abs

Philippe

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[Cheri Mello]

Typical language would say that the couple was granted a dispensation (consanguinity or affinity) in the X degree. I did not look at your record. Perhaps others will!

Your dispensation is not in those particular packets. They are in another set if they still exist.

From João Ventura, archivist in Angra (with more explanation by Cheri):

All dispensation records that exist are in Angra,Terceira where the Diocese seat is. Some dispensations were given to the couple and some were filed with the diocese.  What is left in the archives is very hit and miss (maybe this doesn't translate correctly and another person can explain the English translation of "hit and miss.") The dispensations are for more prominent families. (Although I have found a couple of my peasant ancestors)!

* They are indexed by year and village. That's only if you are going to retrieve them yourself. If you are hiring João, he knows how the system works.

* All dispensations were granted by the bishop because it costs money to send the dispensation to Rome and it could take 4 to 5 years.  In extreme

    cases, the local priest could grant the dispensation.

* Rome granted all dispensations (If they were sent there).

Hope that makes better sense!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAN%3DQnBz_wSi4T5CUPZ4gsbnhP-%3DAsUE4Ur1XpJv0runJnt1eVw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Philippe GARNIER]

* All dispensations were granted by the bishop because it costs money to send the dispensation to Rome and it could take 4 to 5 years.  In extreme

    cases, the local priest could grant the dispensation.

It's correct. The parents are wainting their dispensation for "sua santidade" = The Pope of Rome.

The batism is on 1674, and the mariage is on 1679 = 5 years.

Normaly, Council of Trente to make waivers pay. But, in fact, it is necessary to pay the person who will defend the request (lawyer).

This is why the Council planned to delegate its powers to the bishop.

Abs

Philippe

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[Fábio Márquez]

Caros amigos Cheri e Phillippe ! 

Muito agradecido por essas explanações, pois eu estava com dúvidas sobre essa minha ascendente. 

Atenciosamente, 

Fábio Marques

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