Ossuary

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Cheri Mello

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Jan 15, 2020, 10:46:26 PM1/15/20
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Repost for Anthony Silver, thecoloursilver.82 at gmail.com

Anthony said:
<< is the Ossuary a building ?>>

It depends. Try Google (or your favorite search engine).
Here's a general Google search (you might want to click on the Images tab):

The only one I saw in the Azores was the size of a dog house. So in that case, I saw a little concrete building. Maybe someone else has seen one in another freguesia. When I've gone to the Azores, I'm in the archives. I don't go to the cemeteries, as I know my ancestors are no longer in marked graves.

Hope this helps,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

Monica C

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Jan 16, 2020, 11:29:04 AM1/16/20
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Hello, 

I've recently had to deal with my father's bones being placed in an ossuary.

My father passed away in 1987 and the cemetery had placed him on the list to exhume back in 2017. Instead of his bones to be placed in a mass grave of bones, I had the option to have him placed in a n ossuary in the same cemetery. There was a fee.

I have provided a link to the image from facebook when it was being blessed by the parish priest. Just copy and paste it in your browser.


Thanks
Monica

Cheri Mello

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Jan 16, 2020, 11:44:04 AM1/16/20
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Hi Monica,

That picture from your freguesia of Capelas (on Sao Miguel island?) looks similar to the niches for cremations in my area of southern California. Yours are bigger than the niches here.

In my area, they are about a 6 inch by 6 inch (15 cm x 15 cm) or so.
image.png

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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Monica C

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Jan 16, 2020, 12:43:30 PM1/16/20
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Yes Cheri it is.

Looking at yours, mine is much bigger. I believe that if a family member of my father wants to be in there, they can share the space with my dad. Perhaps that's why they make it a bit bigger.

Thanks for sharing.

Monica

On Wednesday, January 15, 2020 at 10:46:26 PM UTC-5, Cheri Mello wrote:

Susan Murphy

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Jan 16, 2020, 2:01:16 PM1/16/20
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Thank you Monica for the image.

I saw the one at Santa Catarina church in Castelo Branco and it was more like what Cheri said..... like a long big dog house maybe.

Along this subject I had a memory of one of my mother’s first cousins telling us when he came to this country (after the volcanic eruption on Faial) that he witnessed his grandmothers bones being exhumed. He told me this in the 1960s and I recently visited him and asked him about it (I thought it was my great grandmother but turns out it was on his mother’s side). I felt so bad because he started to cry because he saw her red hair and she was recognizable to him. His wife seemed to indicate that a family member had to be present. I was so sorry I had brought the subject up and i would think it would be such a painful experience for anyone to have to witness this. Have any of you heard that there (used to be at least) this custom?

Susan Vargas Murphy   

On Jan 16, 2020, at 8:29 AM, 'Monica C' via Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


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Maria Lima

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Jan 16, 2020, 2:10:20 PM1/16/20
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Susan, thanks for sharing this- very moving.  I can’t imagine...

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 16, 2020, at 1:01 PM, 'Susan Murphy' via Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Cheri Mello

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Jan 16, 2020, 2:14:40 PM1/16/20
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I would think *most* people would be just bones? There are always exceptions. So sorry your cousin saw that.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/A67E5933-1D9D-4C57-A352-CBFF690C1E24%40gmail.com.

Monica C

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Jan 16, 2020, 3:32:41 PM1/16/20
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Many have been exhumed without the family present; my dad for example. It may have been a rule or more likely that the family are still there that would be notified of the pending exhumation. Attendance may be mandatory in that instance. However, I know my father's family is still there and there was no family present Not even sure if they knew what was going on at that time.

It's one thing to experience a burial. I can't imagine experiencing an exhumation. Extremely heartbreaking.



On Wednesday, January 15, 2020 at 10:46:26 PM UTC-5, Cheri Mello wrote:

Sherry Phillips Swatek

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Jan 16, 2020, 3:32:57 PM1/16/20
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Hair lasts a long time.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Susan Murphy

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Jan 16, 2020, 3:41:30 PM1/16/20
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I’m sorry too! He’s 83 now, so a sorrow that just doesn’t go away :(
Susan 

On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Anthony Silver

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Jan 16, 2020, 11:25:04 PM1/16/20
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that's what the ossuary look like.
hmmm, I think I have seen something like that here in Australia. 
so, regarding the archive, where would I go for those?


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Cheri Mello

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Jan 16, 2020, 11:36:57 PM1/16/20
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Hi Anthony S,

The Azores are divided into 3 districts. So which island again? And you are searching before 1911 (before 1905 on most of Sao Miguel), correct?
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAKsLXcdoxHxH_uWyKdptR%2B6abWgtynbYs9Meuo0DKWVuRgJYMQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Anthony Silver

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Jan 17, 2020, 5:56:27 PM1/17/20
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which island ? 
its one of the three. 
the search is for up to 1863, when he came here, to Australia by ship.
the exact ship is not known, though the Harriet Armitage is one my family knows about.
I have done a search of other ships, of which he may have been on.
also, what occupations existed back then, so I can narrow my search a little bit.
and what the schools as well. 
I have attached a portrait of what he looks like.


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Joseph Silver Portrait.jpg

Cheri Mello

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Jan 17, 2020, 6:04:44 PM1/17/20
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Anthony S,

You have to find out which island. It's just the way it is organized there. That's how they do their records. I don't know how it works in Australia, but I'm sure if I wrote to the main Australian government and said I want the birth certificate of my long lost cousin who went to Australia, they couldn't help me. I'm sure I'd need a location for them to pull a record for me. You need a location in the Azores.

All occupations existed in the 1860s. Laborers, farmers, fisherman, servants, merchants, teachers, etc. No tech jobs, no electricians, no plumbers, as those things just didn't exist.

I believe schooling was very limited and was only for the well to do. Schooling for the common people didn't start happening until sometime in the 1900s.

You need to find every possible record that your immigrant ancestor may have left in Australia. You need at least an island. If you have exhausted that, then you will need to turn to DNA and you will need to test the oldest family members you can find and you will have to test multiple family members in order to get enough of your immigrant's DNA to figure out the puzzle.

Good luck,

Anthony Silver

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Jan 17, 2020, 6:56:37 PM1/17/20
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Thankyou Cheri.
hmm, that's something to really think about.

From: azo...@googlegroups.com <azo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 17 January 2020 3:04 PM
To: Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Ossuary
 
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Pamela Hand

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Jan 18, 2020, 10:58:07 AM1/18/20
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Hi Anthony
Some of the Silver family researchers here in Australia believe that your Joseph Da Silva was born at sea around 1838 to 1841 off the coast of Faial, one of the western islands of the Azores. It is also suggested that records for births at sea are kept in Lisbon. 
Maybe Cheri or one of the group may know where these birth/baptism records for births at sea would be recorded and how to access them. I am guessing there would not be a lot of births at sea between 1838 and 1841, and therefore could be a starting point for you to find your ancestors.
Hopefully someone can help.
Pam

Cheri Mello

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Jan 18, 2020, 2:10:54 PM1/18/20
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Why would a woman that pregnant get on the boat if he was born off the coast of Faial? If she went into labor and they were off the coast, why didn't they turn back and drop the expectant parents off on Faial? The could have caught the next boat. Giving birth and getting seasick at the same time?!?! No thank you, I'd catch the next boat if I was that pregnant!

If the story is true, I have no idea where Azorean births at sea would be recorded in 1838-1841. There was no official vital service record keeping. The records of that time period are mainly the Catholic Church. If he was born on a boat, they'd have to take the baby to a church to be baptized, which would be a Catholic Church in Australia.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAH0CwXtrUR-WS45QDcTSWuoKLRU4MSaxuD1Ttx-qgNkAFykh1A%40mail.gmail.com.

Pamela Hand

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Jan 18, 2020, 4:18:39 PM1/18/20
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Yes seems crazy but people did things for whatever reason and his tombstone states that he was born at sea, western Azores. He came to Australia as an adult and arrival documents state birthplace is Faial. Baptisms happened as soon as possible so could be either nearest church to the port in Horta or Lisbon depending on where the boat was headed? Any suggestions which parish/freguesia closest to the ports in either place would be a starting point.
Thanks

Anthony Silver

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Jan 20, 2020, 7:41:22 PM1/20/20
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well, apparently he was a roman catholic.
and birth records are kept in Lisbon? 
hmmm, ok.
just wondering about the Azores, does each island have its own "characteristics" or "traits"? 
also, I do know that he owned a farm near manilla, here in nsw.
were there may farming families back then? 

Sent: Saturday, 18 January 2020 11:10 AM

Anthony Silver

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Jan 20, 2020, 7:41:32 PM1/20/20
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what arrival documents? 
who has those?
this is amusing because no one in my family seems to know about this.


From: azo...@googlegroups.com <azo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Pamela Hand <poppym...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 18 January 2020 12:48 PM
To: azo...@googlegroups.com <azo...@googlegroups.com>

Cheri Mello

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Jan 20, 2020, 7:52:29 PM1/20/20
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Hi Anthony,

I can't remember the percentage of Azoreans who are now Roman Catholic. It's high. Back in the day, it was probably something like 98% were Catholic. Maybe someone has those statistics.

At the time period you are speaking about, there are no birth records. Birth records didn't start until 1911. Before that, we use the Catholic Church baptisms as our source for birth records. So a baby would be born at home and within a few days to a week (*typically* - there are always exceptions), the baby would be taken to the local church to be baptized. Since your ancestors had already left the Azores, they would have to baptize their baby when they arrived in Australia. You need to check the Australian Catholic Church records near the port where your ancestors arrived.

The Azores islands do have some regional differences, just like many countries have regional differences.

Farming, fishing were very common and many still do farm or fish now.

Manila? North South West? Is that the Philippines? I thought you were talking Australia.

For arrival documents, you'd have to check your country (Philippines or Australia or whatever you are talking about) and ask about their arrival records or immigration records. A local genealogy society or your local Family History Center should be able to help you. If you don't know what a Family History Center is, look up Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) and call them and ask where the nearest Family History Center is. No, you don't have to be Mormon/LDS to use it. It is open to the public like any other library, however many have limited hours since they are run by volunteers.

Good luck,
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/MEAPR01MB34147A4C7B56021845B87FC9970D0%40MEAPR01MB3414.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com.

Anthony Silver

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Jan 20, 2020, 8:05:08 PM1/20/20
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the spelling is Manilla, two L's.


Sent: Monday, 20 January 2020 4:51 PM

Michael Giffin

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Jan 24, 2020, 7:14:34 PM1/24/20
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I think the term ossuary can refer to a box or a place where such boxes are kept.
Two years ago I went to my family village, Porto Formoso on Sao Miguel. We went to the cemetery to find out what we could find out. The man there, quite a character, showed us a bone box. What they did was bury someone in a temporary grave, until only the skeleton was left. They they removed the bones from the grave, so they could re-use the grave, and put the bones in a bone box (an ossuary). This was to save space. In the Holy Land you can see ossuaria or ossuarium, where many such bone boxes are kept.
Hope this helps.
Michael
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